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I'll explain in detail later, but can anyone tell me where the sensor is located that the SG2 gets its engine temp from?

I'm having a fight with my service department :mad:

Thanks in advance!

I'd like to help but I have no clue? :(

Thanks, RLC :)

Since I've got a few minutes, here's the basic problem. My engine block heater appears to have quit on me. I noticed lat last week that when I put my hand on the hood of my FEH in the AM, it felt colder than usual, so I checked the temp on my SG2 - 69F :eek: No wonder I was getting better mileage going home than driving to work!

According to the service manager (more about him & the "service adviser" later :mad:), the EBH warms the coolant in the block, & he doesn't know where my SG2 gets the temp reading from, but they checked the electrical connections, & there's nothing wrong with my EBH. (In the heat of the moment, I didn't think to ask if they'd actually *plugged it in* to see if it got warm or not :p)

I'm angry, frustrated, discouraged & determined to prove them wrong - & I'll be back later to vent more about their condescending attitudes :rolleyes:

Debbie, the description of how the EBH works is accurate and I believe that the sensor in question is measuring that same coolant. Further than that and I'm stuck. Perhaps GaryG would know?

I would suggest that they plug in the EBH, let it run for a while, and then ensure that there isn't a temperature fault in it somewhere. When metal parts heat up they generally expand and that can cause flakey electrical behavior if something isn't quite right. If the insulation is cracked/cut on the cable moisture could also play a role?

I'm assuming you checked your outlet at home?

Take it to another dealer. These guys can't even do diagnostics 101.

Debbie,

He's right that the EBH warms the coolant, and the SGII is reading the water (coolant) temperature sensor on your engine block. I have no idea exactly where that sensor is located on a Ford engine but on a Toyota it is always on the front of the block and usually close to the coolant return line. Look for a clip-on plastic piece about the diameter of a large thumb with 2 wires coming off of it.

If you spot one like this a ways down on the side of the engine block that's not the coolant sensor but the cam position sensor instead.

The easiest way to tell if an EBH is working is to stick a Kill-A-Watt on its line at the outlet to see if it's drawing a load. An ammeter can do the same thing, although not as prettily. ;)

If the EBH is drawing a load but still not heating anything, and your EBH is the core-plug type, then it is likely not making good thermal contact in its socket. Causes of this are usually missing or deteriorated conductor material (usually silicon grease... it simply needs to be cleaned and reapplied) or that the EBH has slipped out of its hole a bit and needs to be reseated.

I'll explain in detail later, but can anyone tell me where the sensor is located that the SG2 gets its engine temp from?

I'm having a fight with my service department :mad:

Thanks in advance!

The sensor that is used is the head temperature sensor that also allows the coolant temperature to be inferred from the same sensor by the PCM. In other words, the sensor has a dual function to eliminate as many wires and sensors as possible. It is located on top head and in the center of the spark plug row.

GaryG

Interestingly enough, there is a PID for engine coolant temperature sensor voltage....and it does produce different readings! There is also a PID for cylinder head temp and sensor voltage. Hard to believe Ford would generate a simulated sensor voltage, but there you go.

ECT: $1139
ECT voltage: $114D
CHT: $1624
CHT voltage: $1685

With the new SG firmware, you can monitor any or all of these in the gauge mode.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Sean & Chuck & Tom & Brian & Gary! I *knew* I could get my answers here :) :) :)

I know that the outlet works, because the timer revolves the way it's supposed to, & turns the current on in the wee hours of the morning. I will ask my handyman husband to check & make sure the timer & the extension cord are actually delivering current. Beyond that, it will be the dealer's problem.

And now for the rest of the story [venting mode on] -

When I told the "service adviser" that my EBH wasn't working, he asked me what the symptoms were :confused: - that the engine wasn't warm in the AM when I left for work, even though the EBH had been *on* for 3+ hours (DUH!) His response was that it doesn't heat the engine (double-DUH!! I *knew* that!), he actually said something about it heating the oil. I told him that in the mornings lately when I put my hand on the hood before I go around to unplug the EBH, it wasn't any warmer than the air around the vehicle, & that when I unplug the EBH, I'm not feeling the little bit of warmth in the area of the plug either. He said that the EBH wouldn't make either place warm. So then I played my trump (so I thought)card - I said that my ScanGauge was showing a temp of 69-70F when it should show 101F for the coolant temp. He had *no* idea what a ScanGauge was - are they *that* obscure? So I explained it to him - he was still doubtful about my claim, but took my keys, & I went to the waiting area.

About a half-hour later, the service manager came out & called my name. He mentioned the EBH problem, & said "Why don't you come on back - we need to talk about a couple of things." I felt like I was being taken to the principal's office. When we got to my FEH, he pointed at my grill-cover & asked "Why did you do that?" I told him it was to keep as much heat in the engine compartment as possible, so the engine wouldn't have to run just to keep itself at operating temp. He told me I better take it off because it will make my engine overheat. I said "Not on this vehicle." He proceeded to tell me how he's been driving for years & it most certainly will. (OK, be honest with me, those of you who've met me - I'll happily accept that I *might* not look *all* of my years, but surely I look a little older than someone who just started driving ;) ) Still trying to be nice about it, I pointed out that this is a Ford Escape *HYBRID*, which means that at speeds of 30mph or lower, the engine does not run all the time, so it will *not* overheat, & that when I'm going any distance on the highway, I take the block off. His response to that was "Well, it's your car, & I guess you can do what you want with it", delivered in such a way that he's expecting me back with a complaint about the engine, & will be delighted to tell me he told me so. The man doesn't know this *basic* thing about this hybrid :confused:

Anyway, having failed to get me to admit the error of my ways on that issue, he said that all the electrical connections on my EBH looked OK, so there was nothing wrong with it. I told him what I told the "adviser" about the readings on my SG2, & that's when he told me that the EBH warms the coolant *in the block* & insisted that the SG2 was getting its temp readings from somewhere else. I told him those readings were through the OBDII port, the same port they use for computer diagnoses, & he said that he didn't know where that sensor was, but it didn't have anything to do with the coolant in the engine block :confused: Then he all but patted me on the head & sent me on my way like a good little girl, telling me one more time that it was my car & I could do what I wanted with it, but they couldn't help me.

(Now that I think about this experience, I'm really beginning to miss the days when you could talk directly to the mechanic :rolleyes:)

This dealer usually sends out an email after servicing, asking for an evaluation of their customer service, & boy am I going to have something to say. In the meantime, I'm thinking of composing a letter or email & sending it to the other Ford dealerships in the area, looking for service department personnel who will talk to me like I may actually know something about what I'm talking about & help me learn when I don't, rather than dismissing me as "just a dumb girl" who won't confine her attentions to the radio & the vanity mirror :mad: Also that they know what they're talking WRT my FE*HYBRID*. Familiarity with hypermiling & ScanGauges a plus. [venting mode off :)]

Thank you again for all your very helpful responses :) :) :) :)

You are most welcome, Debbie -- though I don't think I offered very much.

I'm sorry you have had such a bad experience there. :( I learned a very long time ago not to "judge a book by its cover" -- I don't understand people who persist in letting the "cover" overwhelm their higher reasoning ability. It is rude, callous, and just plain silly. Especially for those of us who are constantly on the receiving end of such behavior.

I tend to agree that maybe it is time to find another dealership or mechanic? One who will not talk down to you?

Here's hoping you find the cause of your issue quickly and can get it resolved with a minimum of expense!

The sensor that is used is the head temperature sensor that also allows the coolant temperature to be inferred from the same sensor by the PCM. In other words, the sensor has a dual function to eliminate as many wires and sensors as possible. It is located on top head and in the center of the spark plug row.

GaryG

Thanks Gary :)

Does the fact that the PCM infers the coolant temp from this sensor mean that this is how it decides that the engine is warm enough to go EV? And if I'm understanding correctly, that this is indeed the readout that tells me if the coolant in the engine block has been heated as it should be? I just want to be *really* clear on this, in case I decide to go back & insist that *this* dealer's service department actually deal with this problem, so I apologize for being a little dense ;)

I have never called anyone a tool before but it sounds like that stealership is full of them.

Is there nowhere else you can go? Any local, reputable, non-affiliated shops?

Interestingly enough, there is a PID for engine coolant temperature sensor voltage....and it does produce different readings! There is also a PID for cylinder head temp and sensor voltage. Hard to believe Ford would generate a simulated sensor voltage, but there you go.

ECT: $1139
ECT voltage: $114D
CHT: $1624
CHT voltage: $1685

With the new SG firmware, you can monitor any or all of these in the gauge mode.

Thanks CarlD :)

These are the specialized codes that can be used in the SG2 to get more than the "stock" information, right? I'll have to take a look at my manual tonight. This is normally a little more technical than I get, but anything that will allow me to rub that service manager's nose in his attitude...

(It's OK all, I'm not really the type to do that, & I know it's not always politic to do so. But boy, whenever I picture him standing there telling me things that I *knew* weren't so, it makes me want to force him to acknowledge that maybe I knew something that he didn't... :rolleyes: )

And yes CarlD, I'm looking forward to having that new information. I'm not sure yet what I'll do when it comes time to send my SG2 back for its upgrade. I'd kind of like to get a second one - like GaryG says, I don't know how I'll get along without it - but it was hard enough when I got this one to explain to my husband why I needed one *more* thing to look at besides the road in front of me :D :D

I tend to agree that maybe it is time to find another dealership or mechanic? One who will not talk down to you?

Here's hoping you find the cause of your issue quickly and can get it resolved with a minimum of expense!

Thanks Sean :) :)

I'm feeling a lot better about the eventual outcome now :) After I've confirmed the power from the outlet to the EBH plug is not the problem, I will either go back to this dealer or I will go to another dealer & then take the results back to this dealership & tell them the result, so that this doesn't happen to anyone else. :)

I'll let everyone know what happens :):)

I have never called anyone a tool before but it sounds like that stealership is full of them.

Thanks Brian - "tool" might be too good a word for these guys :D

Is there nowhere else you can go? Any local, reputable, non-affiliated shops?

There are several other Ford dealerships in the Milwaukee area, so I'm not SOL yet ;)

I'm toying with composing an email to all of them about how I want to be treated, & that I'd like to build a working relationship with a service department I can trust. And that in a year or 3, there might be another FEH sale in it for them, & see what kind of response(s) I get :)

Thanks Gary :)

Does the fact that the PCM infers the coolant temp from this sensor mean that this is how it decides that the engine is warm enough to go EV? And if I'm understanding correctly, that this is indeed the readout that tells me if the coolant in the engine block has been heated as it should be? I just want to be *really* clear on this, in case I decide to go back & insist that *this* dealer's service department actually deal with this problem, so I apologize for being a little dense ;)

There are many conditions to be met to determine if the FEH is warm enough to go EV. I've never read anything that states the coolant or the head temperature had to be at a certain temperature for EV, but I have read heat is a condition. Catalyst heat, vacuum, heat, purge and low SoC are stated as requirements. You and I know that starting out with as much heat anywhere in the engine will shorten the time to go EV, so the word heat should include head and coolant temperature whether inferred or not. The catalyst temperature is inferred by the PCM with the heated oxygen sensors also BTW.

If it were me, I'd tell the service manager that the engine block heater is not heating the block and coolant/head temperature sensor in a manner as it had in the past. More than likely the tech working on your FEH has no or knows of a test procedure to check the block heater. Its sound like he just looked at the connections and gave up.

Also, remember your using the block heater for something it was not designed for. I would have never taken it to the dealership with a radiator block still in there either. You may have been red flagged by this dealership, so I would consider taking it to another without giving them your purpose in the use of the block heater and take that radiator block out for that visit. It was my reason for doing the heater core bypass the way I did, it could be put back to stock connections within minutes if I had problems with the HVAC system. When you modify the use or system under the warranty, it can be voided.

Good Luck,

Gary

Hi Debbie and Gary:

___Gary, what is the average temps you see when your EBH’s are plugged in for 2 + hours from cold? 120 or so degrees F? If Debbie’s is not reaching anywhere near that level after 2 + hours from cold, the EBH is shot. If the SG-II shows an increase and is displaying 110 – 130, then it appears to be working.

___Debbie, are you seeing any decent increase like you used to when it was new? The dealership hasn’t a fricken clue what they are doing obviously :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Get a amp probe and see if the ebh is drawing current when pluged in. If its not. Its bad. Or get a multi meter out and see if there is a circuit and resistance in ebh. If its open it is bad. This takes no time to do. And one does not need a degree to do.

If its bad get a new one. Shove old ebh down service managers throat. As you kick him in the ballz. Wait for him to expell it and then fed-x to Ford and let them know they have some real tards in there stealerships.

Crikey, I hope I would have had the on-the-spot presence of
mind to say "look, you have no reason or right to be that kind
of patronizing with me, I need to talk to YOUR superior, and
yes that means RIGHT NOW." And then get said manager to get
you directly to the mechanic to have the real talk.
.
_H*

If it were me, I'd tell the service manager that the engine block heater is not heating the block and coolant/head temperature sensor in a manner as it had in the past. More than likely the tech working on your FEH has no or knows of a test procedure to check the block heater. Its sound like he just looked at the connections and gave up.

Hi Gary --

I never got to talk to the tech, but the service manager said that they "checked the electrical connections" & found nothing wrong. I didn't think to ask if they'd tried just *plugging it in* :confused: I just think they didn't believe I knew what I was talking about (well, at least *some* of what I was talking about :p ).

I suppose I could take it in & say I was just checking the EBH out in anticipation of cooler weather, & nothing happened. Or wait until it is cooler (I don't really want to do that :( ) & ask them to take a look at it, just complaining that the car is taking longer to warm up than it did last winter - but I don't want to lose all that potential FE :( :(

Also, remember your using the block heater for something it was not designed for. I would have never taken it to the dealership with a radiator block still in there either. You may have been red flagged by this dealership, so I would consider taking it to another without giving them your purpose in the use of the block heater and take that radiator block out for that visit. It was my reason for doing the heater core bypass the way I did, it could be put back to stock connections within minutes if I had problems with the HVAC system. When you modify the use or system under the warranty, it can be voided.

Good Luck,

Gary

As I see it, I *am* using the EBH for its intended purpose - to warm up the engine block prior to starting the vehicle - I'm just using it *more*. Is it possible that using it for many months continuously could have burned it out?

Good point about the mods - I never even thought about that :o :o:o

Hi Debbie and Gary:

___Gary, what is the average temps you see when your EBH’s are plugged in for 2 + hours from cold? 120 or so degrees F? If Debbie’s is not reaching anywhere near that level after 2 + hours from cold, the EBH is shot. If the SG-II shows an increase and is displaying 110 – 130, then it appears to be working.

___Debbie, are you seeing any decent increase like you used to when it was new? The dealership hasn’t a fricken clue what they are doing obviously :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne --

While I remember that when I first started plugging in my EBH last winter, the AM temp would be >100F, I wasn't paying constant or close enough attention to the coolant temp readout to remember what the temp actually *was*, or if there were variation in temp :o :o I do remember seeing 101F recently, just before everything went downhill. Perhaps my EBH has been in a gradual decline? As I posted above, is it possible that continuous use over the past 11 months has burned it out??

Yesterday AM & this AM, the EBH was *trying* - both mornings the hood felt slightly warmer than the air, & coolant temps were 82F (yesterday) & 80F (today). That makes me think that the problem must be either a short or the contact problem that someone (Brian/BailOut?) suggested earlier. Yesterday, it was plugged into the timer, which turns it on at 2AM (I leave for work a little after 6AM.) Last night I plugged the extension cord directly into the outlet.

Don said that he has the tools to make sure that current is getting to the EBH, & will check that much out for me. Thank goodness that he's willing to help figure this out, even if he *does* think I'm a little crazy :D One of many reasons why he's a keeper :) :love: :)

Get a amp probe and see if the ebh is drawing current when pluged in. If its not. Its bad. Or get a multi meter out and see if there is a circuit and resistance in ebh. If its open it is bad. This takes no time to do. And one does not need a degree to do.

If its bad get a new one. Shove old ebh down service managers throat. As you kick him in the ballz. Wait for him to expell it and then fed-x to Ford and let them know they have some real tards in there stealerships.


:D :D :D

Thank you Psyshack, for the first really *good* laugh I've had since Tuesday afternoon!

(Please tell me you're not *really* this crazy ;) )

Crikey, I hope I would have had the on-the-spot presence of
mind to say "look, you have no reason or right to be that kind
of patronizing with me, I need to talk to YOUR superior, and
yes that means RIGHT NOW." And then get said manager to get
you directly to the mechanic to have the real talk.
.
_H*

Hi Hobbit --

My problem is what presence of mind I *do* have deserts me at times like this :( I always think of what I *should* have said afterwards :rolleyes: (then I'm brilliant :p )

Hi Debbie and Gary:

___Gary, what is the average temps you see when your EBH’s are plugged in for 2 + hours from cold? 120 or so degrees F? If Debbie’s is not reaching anywhere near that level after 2 + hours from cold, the EBH is shot. If the SG-II shows an increase and is displaying 110 – 130, then it appears to be working.

___Debbie, are you seeing any decent increase like you used to when it was new? The dealership hasn’t a fricken clue what they are doing obviously :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, the FEH does not get a block heater unless you are from a State that may need a block heater or special order one. So this means I don't have one.

There is no question how outside temperature effects the length of time we go EV, and from talking to Debbie at HF, the block heater makes a big difference. If Debbie says she seen a change in going EV, I don't need a meter to figure the block heater is not working right in her FEH. On my daily commute, I can estimate where I will go EV like clockwork based on the outside temperature. I'm sure Debbie can do the same based on her conditions because she experienced the same effect I did when we learned how to use the warm-up strategy Ford patented.

GaryG

I had similar problems with my EBH this last winter. After looking at coolant temp on the SG2, and seeing that it wasn't drawing any power with the Kill-a-Watt, I took it into the dealer and they found a short in the cord. At that point, I had been using it daily when the temps were below 60, and had driven off several times with it plugged in. They replaced it free of charge even though it was a month out of the 1 year parts warranty.

As my dad says, the SG2 was probably the biggest help in convincing the dealer that something was wrong. If they had ignored that, then I wouldn't have known what to do next. What dealer did you go to? I know there are several in Milwaukee County, and over a dozen when you include all of the neighboring counties. Good luck getting this resolved, at least it hit you in these warm months and not when the temperatures were around zero when my EBH gave up.

My problem is what presence of mind I *do* have deserts me at times like this :( I always think of what I *should* have said afterwards :rolleyes: (then I'm brilliant :p )
That's a documented medical malady. It's called "delayed intelligence." I have it. ;)

If Debbie says she seen a change in going EV, I don't need a meter to figure the block heater is not working right in her FEH.

GaryG

Thanks Gary :) :) :)

It's always nice to have confirmation that I know what I'm talking about, no matter what the topic ;)

I had a nice long chat with Bradlee last night after dinner. He called to commiserate, & to share his story of the Insight EBH that Justin posted here, & to add his suggestions for how to approach the dealer service department. Thanks, Bradlee :) :)

The highlight of my EBH problems has been all the support I've received from my CleanMPG & MiHG "families" - thank you all again :) :) :)

My sweetie of a husband had already checked the outlet, the timer & the extension cord by the time I got home from work yesterday :) :) No problems there.

Since I wasn't as occupied mentally yesterday (we were cleaning up after our library open house & the fall book sale, so I was packing up books & schlepping boxes), I had some time to think about the events at the dealership again, & I think I may have succumbed to the sin of hypermiler-vanity :p I pulled into that dealership ready to impress the service-people with my knowledge of my FEH, & strut my stuff as a hypermiler :cool: (what with being a girl & all ;)), & I basically made things more complicated for myself than they needed to be :rolleyes: When I go to another dealership (I'm *done* with this one :(), I'll simply do as Bradlee & others have suggested - just tell them that my EBH isn't working & that I know this because of the temps being reported by my SG2. After I take off my grille block ;)

I'll let you know what happens :)

Best of luck to you, Debbie! I hope a quick repair is right around the corner!

Good luck getting this resolved, at least it hit you in these warm months and not when the temperatures were around zero when my EBH gave up.

Thanks, Justin :) You're absolutely right - this could have happened at a *much* worse time. At least it's warm enough that my mpg's are staying in the mid- to high-40's :) :)

My EBH died on me a month or so ago too. It ended up being a break in the wires very near the plug. I cut the old plug off and spliced and soldered an end from an extension cord that was damaged in the middle. It has been working fine ever since. Good luck with the dealer and I hope they take care of it real soon. I know how much it hurts to be without a working EBH.:(

Perhaps my EBH has been in a gradual decline? As I posted above, is it possible that continuous use over the past 11 months has burned it out??



Very possible Debbie.

The Engine Block Heater is basically a very durable light bulb filament.
A filament that "glows" at 120 degrees, vs. 3600 degrees in a standard light bulb.

Perlonged, constant use will simply "burn it out" just like a light bulb.
And just like a light bulb that says "1000 hours ave." on the package, the engine block heater has a similar life span. I don't know what the life span actually is, but you get the point.

I just got a job promotion that has me moving to southern MN next month.
I did pretty well without a block heater in Colorado, but I think I'm going to invest in one this Fall!!! -John

To extend the life of your EBH you can use a timer to control when it is allowed to run. I use this model:

http://www.intermatic.com/Default.asp?action=prod&pid=9235&did=5&cid=44&sid=116

... both at home and at work. I have it turn on the EBH 3 hours before I plan to leave. On the weekends I manually turn the timer on if I know I have errands coming up.

Here's the one mounted in my garage:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/block_heater_timer.jpg

Not only does this extend the life of your EBH but it puts a lot of money back into your pocket in the form of saved electricity. My EBH pulls 400W constantly (if I let it) as it is a dumb device with no thermostat control, so having it run just 3 hours before I leave in the morning saves roughly 11 other hours of time that it would have been running since I got home the day before. 11 x 400 = 4400Wh, or 4.4kWh. 4.4 * $0.15 per kWh = $0.66. $0.66 x 30 days in a month = $19.80 saved each month.

In other words this device can pay for itself in just one month, not to mention take the worry about manually controlling your EBH. :)

Another tool that helps out with things like this is a little $2 pass-through 120V plug that lights up when it has power. It draws just 1W or so and you simply plug it into the end of your extension cord, between it and your EBH's cord. The other day I noticed that there are also extension cords pre-made with this device in-line. It's the simplest thing but it gives you a most helpful visual cue to let you know your EBH is on. I don't know what they are called but I see them at hardware stores all the time. Here's a picture of one of mine:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/block_heater_plug.jpg

On a side note I also use this timer model to control our AV center in the family room and all of our computer equipment in the den. This unit can handle 1kW so there's a lot of room for play.

As I see it, I *am* using the EBH for its intended purpose - to warm up the engine block prior to starting the vehicle - I'm just using it *more*. Is it possible that using it for many months continuously could have burned it out?

Highly unlikely, Debbie. The EBH is just a resistive heater like the elements in an electric water heater. Should last a long time, even with prolonged use, unless it is operated without a sufficient heat sink - not contacting the coolant. Given the low wattage, it would have to be a pretty bad design if you could burn it out that fast.

.

Thank you, Carl & John, for your somewhat confusing information :p I guess I'll just have to see what the (next) dealer tells me. With AM temps down in the low 50's these days, I'm noticing a big difference in how soon I can go EV, & my mpg's are suffering :o I'm going to stop by another dealer today.

Carl, I had been using a timer - but thanks for the suggestion about the special plug. I'm going to get one of those today, too :)

John, we'll practically be neighbors ;) Where in southern MN will you be?

I finally got my EBH problem diagnosed :rolleyes: - there's a broken wire somewhere in the cord. The SA said that because of the way the EBH works in the FEH, they needed to order a new one.

This SA was a lot easier to deal with than the one at my last dealership - at least he didn't just assume that I didn't know what I was talking about :p It might have helped that this time I didn't approach him as if *I* was the expert ;)

Anyway, until the past few days, when the AM temps have been in the high 40's-low 50's, my AM mileage hasn't suffered as much as I'd expected :) And the drives home have been even better - I've been seeing quite a few 50+ mpg's at the end of the day :woot:

Thanks again for all your support & suggestions :) :) :)

That's great news, Debbie!!!