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Hi All:

___Just a few pics so far.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Ryan_and_Doug_-_Webershandwick.jpg
Ryan and Doug delivering the iCDTi to the train station in Birmingham, MI.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Diesel_Top_off.jpg
What good would a review be without a top off? Diesel’s take a long time to top off too ;)


http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/94_8_mpg_-_13_25_miles_on_Maple_Street_to_I-94_in_Birmingham_MI.jpg
From the gas station down Maple Street to the on-ramp onto I-94 in Birmingham/Detroit, MI. - 94.8 mpg after 13.25 miles of stop light to stop light.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Ryan_Stop_and_Crawl_-_0130_AM_-_509_km_out_-_3_0_l_per_100km.jpg
Chicago’s Dan Ryan Expressway at 01:30 AM (EST) – 12:30 (CST) some 509 km outside of Detroit. What was so Express about that nightmare? 55 minutes to cover 3 miles :angry:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Back_from_Detroit_-_78_4_mpg_-_592_5_km_out.jpg
Back home from Detroit - 78.4 mpg - 592.5 km out. 0 - 20 mph head/side winds, 50 miles of rain and plenty of cooler temps at night.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/87_11_mpg_-_137_6_km_-_From_Bradlees_to_Parents_to_home.jpg
From Bradlees to my parents to home - 87.11 mpg after 137.6 km. 95% highway.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Honda_Civic_iCDTi_interior.jpg
2007 Honda Civic iCDTi interior. So its a press pic, she is still a beauty :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Holy ****!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I think this is going to be a VERRRY interesting write-up!:) I can't wait to see what you can do with her in your neck-of-the-woods on your daily grind.:eek:

That's great MPG, but what about its emissions?

That's great MPG, but what about its emissions?

From what I can tell, its Tier II and Bins 8-10 for all new passenger diesels in the US.

Not great but better than the old days.

Hi all--

Ever since she traded the a TSX for our Prius, my wife has lamented that while she feels good about the ecological part of her choice, the Prius just ain't fun to drive like the TSX. I've been telling her about the Honda diesels.

So, I gotta ask -- yeah, the FE is great, but Wayne -- what's it like to drive it? --RN

Hi all--

Ever since she traded the a TSX for our Prius, my wife has lamented that while she feels good about the ecological part of her choice, the Prius just ain't fun to drive like the TSX. I've been telling her about the Honda diesels.

So, I gotta ask -- yeah, the FE is great, but Wayne -- what's it like to drive it? --RN

From Waynes past statements about the car. I would think it handles more like a Si or my current Mazda3. Its knee deep in tires, wheels, brakes. ( I hope ) roll bars and stiffer springs. Which would put it some where around TSX. While TSX corners and goes good. It still has Honda crappy brakes. You have to get Si, S2000 or TL 6MT to get GOOD brakes.

Im sure the PII's poor handling really is bothering her. It bothered me a lot also.

God I would like to drive this car. I bet its sweet!!!!

Hi All:

___A few quick notes … As some are saying this very second, “A few quick notes from Wayne … yeah right” :rolleyes: ;)

Ergonomics and Instrumentation.

___The seating ergonomics and instrumentation package are superior to anything available I have had the opportunity to sit behind here in the states including every hybrid and many Acura/Lexus models. The drivers side arm rest/sill and center console are perfect matches and both can be used for ones left and right arms. The seats could use a lumbar support adjustment and active headrests (the headrests are close for crash protection which I like but most will complain that the headrests are too close). The Tilt and telescopic steering wheel make the driver ergonomics darn near perfect. The seats are built on a platform of sorts which I believe arrives because the iCDTi may have the tank underneath the vehicle sans the rear due to the included magic rear seats. The Fit is built similarly and I will try and find out more about this. Because the front seats are built on a platform, I cannot rest my left foot underneath the edge of the seat when bent at a 135 + degree angle for a change in seat positions. The seat height adjuster is a pump up unit. It works OK and is probably a lot lighter then the all-automatic powered seat functions I am used to in Accord but it brings down the feel of the vehicle a touch. Once adjusted, you will never touch that adjustment so it really doesn’t matter. I guess?

___I would like to see a few improvements but as the instrumentation is staged, this is a hypermilers dream ;) Very HCH-II like with even more controls including VSC disable located within arms reach of the driver. There is an annoying little display that I may have accidentally turned on when I was setting up the FCD’s. You have a minimum and maximum speed warning. Currently it is set to 50 and 80 kph. The 50 km/hour is disabled (thank goodness) but the 80 is enabled and every time you pass through 80 kph, a small warning appears in the place the iFCD is displayed. It displays for ~ 2 seconds and disappears but that fact it displaces the iFCD for those 2 seconds is my personal gripe. Tapping the i button (information) drops it out immediately however. About the i button. There are 7 functions to toggle through including the iFCD, aFCD, average speed, DTE, time the vehicle has traveled since the engine was started, seat belt minder for all passengers, and one mode turning off the small display in its entirety. I will get pics up of all these different modes later. My only issue with the toggle is you can not go backwards but must cycle through all 6 screens before you can get back to the one you want. For example, I am watching the iFCD and I toggle to the aFCD. One push of the i button. To get back to the iFCD, I have to tap the button 7 times to bring me all the way back around to it. If only the i button toggled back and forth itself :( There is also no Metric to English units switch unfortunately. I am constantly calculating speeds and distances in my head using the km and speeds * .6 for the conversions. See the preview for a strange iFCD action while in a NICE-On or between fuel cut or the injectors just beginning to keep her running while between fuel-cut (diesel’s do not have a throttle plate so fuel cut is fuel cut and can be seen on the OEM instruments ;)). The dancing iFCD graphic during this low load/no load operation while still at speed does not make any sense to me?

The Start-button.

___I am not sure I like this Civic’s button based start just as I am not so inclined to say the Prius’ start button was all that ergonomic either? To many times I reach for the key to FAS and bring her back up again using the key instead of the button when I do have to use the gear reduction starter motor. It just throws me off a bit is all. Prius drivers that drive one for a week become accustomed to the button and I am sure Civic drivers with this arrangement will be accustomed to it as well.

Stereo.

___One issue I had with the Prius-II last week was the JBL upgraded system. It was boomy and its sound image was very imprecise. While using the Bluetooth hands free arrangement, the windows had to be shut or driving at a very slow speed to hear and or be understood very well. This base Euro Civic does not have Bluetooth but includes what most vehicles should come with in the base stereo/radio packages. A single CD player with a host of the advanced electronics that read the station, the song and the writer/performer when that info is broadcast. Most importantly, it sounds great for a base level vehicle! The location of the song info is in an upper right display just to the right of instruments and above the radio. The Accord has a similar smaller display in the upper center but this one is larger with a lot more information. Sound quality is not quite as nice as the Alpine NAVI/Radio unit in the Accord but pretty close and one you would not need to upgrade other then for more features. Again, this is the base vehicle, not the upgraded one! The Europeans have a slightly different AM tuning band and yet another band I am entirely unfamiliar with. I think the AM band is called MW and the other unknown band is xW something? I could not tune anything in on that alternate mode/band so I am not sure what it is. The AM band does not exactly correspond with ours given my traffic and weather on the 8’s station is WBBM Chicago – 780 AM. The AM tuner allows 763 and 787. Fortunately 780 AM comes in good enough but it is not quite at the same frequency as the radio is trying to tune while at 787.

Standard Equipment.

Since it follows Honda’s safety philosophy, this vehicle is equipped with front, side and side curtain air bags as standard equipment. The base even includes VSC! Since it is the base European Civic iCDTi, it lacks CC unfortunately. It could use one because after 350 miles from Detroit to home, my right foot could have used a little rest ;) Something rather peculiar at first was the drivers side mirror has a split section to it. Everyone knows how NA passenger side mirrors have that “Objects are closer then they appear” sticker attached and what that looks like. The European Civic’s drivers side mirror has a std. view straight to the back and another small portion where you can see further out into the blind spot of the vehicle. I think it does this anyway? An interesting addition that I am still not quite used to yet is all. PS: The drivers side mirror w/ that split section allows a view to the side almost to where your peripheral vision picks up a vehicle while staring straight ahead. We need these mirrors in the US yesterday!

___Brian, because this diesel only had to match the Euro specs, it is not a clean diesel by any stretch. No gasoline/diesel consuming vehicle is green or clean but the base Tier II/Bin5 that your Yaris meets is about 250% better in terms of PM and NOx then this iCDTi is. When Honda releases this engine (or something similar to it) here in the US, it will also meet Tier II/Bin5 out to at least 120K miles and probably a lot longer.

___HCHCIN, let me pass along my own $0.02. This vehicle feels almost as good as the new Civic Si in terms of handling and is every bit as nimble as the TSX. Probably a tad better given the performance rubber and low CG. This is definitely a drivers car unlike most of the fuel efficient vehicles we drive here in the US.

___Jeff, as we spoke previously in the Pre-view, I know you would love this car. Discs, performance (0 – 60 in 8.5 that tops out at just a touch below 130 mph), handling and highway FE to die for. I will work on the city/suburban/country road FE later this week.

Setup.

___C&D supposedly had this vehicle after the preview we performed 2 months ago. The front tires edges are scuffed and chewed up pretty bad. 3 of the 4 hubcaps where not aligned properly (the air valves were under the hubcaps instead of sticking out of their pre-assigned cutouts). I had filled those tires up not 2,500 miles prior when the car had just 500 miles on the ticker and all 4 valves where in their proper positions per the hubcap cutouts. 2 of the 4 valve caps were missing as well. I will take care of the valve caps with a trip to my local Wally World later this week and I took care of the hubcap alignment while I was filling the Dunlop’s. This was no fault of the Weber Shandwick (the handlers of this car for test drives and promotion) as they have no control over that kind of activity. The visually harsh treatment after the fact saddens me given what a beautiful vehicle she is with just a touch over 3,000 miles on her ticker when I picked it up. I can almost guarantee those yahoo’s were beating the living **** out of the poor girl in the twisties and spooling up her turbo as fast humanly possible and for as long as they could :ccry: She is in good hands for the week so as to give her a nice rest before heading back to Germany for routine maintenance. I have no idea what kind of oil, filter or alignment numbers she is spec’ed for and thus am driving it as I received it. Other then pressing up the tires of course. The owners manual was pulled from the vehicle and would probably not done me much good anyway given it was probably written in German :(

___This European Civic lacks an OBD-II port so I am relying on the OEM instrumentation currently for FE measurements and the accuracy is yet to be determined. I am pulling more clutch starts then Start – Push button starts because I do not know the condition of the 12V at any instant in time.

___Because of its almost magic on-center feel no matter the wind and road conditions as well as its inability to roll worth a darn, I suspect a higher degree of Toe-In has been dialed in at the expense of FE but it could be the EPS settings? If anyone knows a quick and dirty way to bring her to 0 degrees/in. of TOE, let me know because her lack of coasting down slopes that would make you feel like you are accelerating with the ICE-On in everything else is disconcerting at best and maddening at its worst! I know this thing has more capability and if TOE is setup for a maximum on-center feel, we are giving up quite a bit of FE. I think we all know which I would prefer without question :(

Rear storage and seats.

___If the Prius hatch is the end all for lengthy storage (it is :)), the Civic hatch is the end all for tall storage. You can probably stand up a 4’ tall anything while it sits in the bottom well of the storage compartment to the headliner in the rear of this one. There is a lot of room back there to say the least! I have yet to fold the magic seats down and manipulate them around but it is on my list of things to do.

The stick.

___Because it is a 6-speed, I am a bit apprehensive to drop the stick down from 5th to 6th in fear of catching Reverse instead. The sticks shift lines are in close proximity to one another and it is a bit notchy? I have sometimes shifted from 5th back to 4th because of the narrower channels then I am used to on the US built sticks? Maybe all 6-speeds are this way and it just takes some getting used to. I am getting better but the fear of catching R is making my 5th to 6th shift tentative at best. With sticks, I traverse from one gear to the next as fast as humanly possible before letting the clutch out and bringing the mill back online for propulsion. The small width shift lines are hampering my ability to do that as of this writing.

The CI-ICE’s FE.

___If there is nobody behind; you can bring her up through 4th gear without ever having to touch the accelerator pedal! This thing has unbelievable pull from down low and this trick is something I would have never expected. Great FE while performing this little stunt as well :) 5th and 6th is where the big numbers come from on the highway of course. There is a display in the upper right hand of the instrumentation package just to the right of the digital speedo called ECO. The LED’s light up in groups of two with 6 maxxed. Once up to about 55 kmh, I try and get her into 5th and peg those LED’s. This allows you to hold down in the 2L - 3L/100Km range per the instantaneous. Once up to speed, keep the ECO LED’s pegged and hold the 2L/100 km/hour by DWL until a climb where your minimum target speeds have been breached. While re-accelerating back up to your high end target, attempt to accel (while still holding 6th for the smaller hills and fifth for the larger ones) at 4L/100 km maximum. Sometimes 5L/100 km is needed :( Because she is a pure lean-burner, there is no NOx purge as there is in an Insight 5-speed or lean-burn capable HCH-I. What a joy it is not having to counteract that little cycle when it appears. The 2.5 L/100 km was received not so much in a P&G regiment but a simple pulse using the 1st – 4th with no accelerator pedal and then FAS’ing to the next light. Sometimes I would only reach 3rd. I will try and get some P&G knocked out this coming week because if 100 is possible, that is the way to do it. Lumbering along at 32 - 35 mph on a perfectly flat road in 6th while just above lug locks in the 2l/100 km level but to what level (2.0 is a long way off from 2.9)? I will try and figure out with some Trip B resets later on this week? When pushing the Start Push button to bring her to life, it is darn near instant. Honda in their infinite wisdom has forced the Accord into a lengthy 1 to 2 second spin-up before firing off whereas this thing is push button - spin - fire and you are on your way in less then a second. FAS’ and clutch starts appear to be the method for some seriously high FE but I am not sure of the results with this Civic’s inability to coast well due to the meats or the alignment? The 55 series rubber does have a max sidewall of 51 so high pressures without the standard new member questioning “Is this tire going to explode or doesn’t the universe implode when you go to or above max sidewall” is not going to be a question. There is maybe a ½ mile of a barely discernable warm-up hit too. YaHoo!

___Her trip from my home to Bradlee’s home yesterday morning allowed 2.7 l/100 km. We arrived at the Culver’s for the MaHG meet at 2.8. Her total tank FE went from 3.0 to 2.9 after the mornings segment to Madison. I was giving a ton of short distance test rides at the MaHG yesterday and her total tank FE had crept back up to 3.0 l/100 km while her trip segment popped back up from 2.8 to 3.0 :angry: By the time I reached Bradlee’s, her MaHG meet Trip FE was down to 2.8. By the time I reached home, she was back at 2.7 and her total tank FE was back down to 2.9.

Fuel Economy Data.

Date|Odometer (km)|Temps (Degrees C)|Segment Distance (km)|Segment FCD (L/100 km)|Tank FCD(L/100 km)|Average Speed (km/hr)|Notes
09-07-07|5700|NA|NA|NA|NA|NA|Picked up in Detroit.
09-07-07|6291|16 - 25|592.5|3.0|3.0|75|Detroit to home.
09-08-07|6667|16 - 25|373.7|2.9|3.0|72|Home to MaHG meet, test rides and back to Bradlee’s.
09-08-07|6774|20 - 23|107.7|2.7|2.9|71|Bradlee’s to my parents.
09-08-07|6804|17 - 18|29.9|2.7|2.9|71|Parents to home.
09-09-07|6806|24|2.1|2.6|2.9|71|To picnic and back.
09-10-07|6965|16 - 18|158.4|2.7|2.9|72|To work.
09-10-07|7130|12 - 22|165.2|2.5|2.9|71|Work to home – Rain for 1/3 of the drive.
09-11-07|7284|9 - 12|153.8|2.8|2.9|72|Home to work in the cold.
09-11-07|7443|18 - 21|159.2|2.6|2.8|73|Work to home in 20 – 35 mph head-side winds.
09-12-07|7591|6 - 8|153.8|2.9|2.8|73|Home to work and fuel starve. 84.3 mpg calculated.
||||New Tank|||
09-12-07|7743|13 - 20|152.9|2.5|2.5|71|Work to home on new tank. 112 mpg to the Interstate. 94 mpg home.
09-13-07|7901|11 - 12|158.6|2.8|2.7|80|Home to work.
09-13-07|8066|21 - 26|164.4|2.1|2.5|75|Work to home. 138.3 mpg to the Interstate.
09-14-07|8220|12 - 14|153.9|2.7|2.5|78|Home to work.
09-14-07|8379|13 - 18|159.2|2.5|2.5|75|Work to Home. 117.6 to the Interstate.
09-14-07|8533|9 - 10|154.2|2.5|2.5|75|Home to Work.
09-15-07|8542|7|8.5|2.3|2.5|75|Work to the gas station.
||||High speed trip back to Detroit|||
09-16-07|9070|2 - 7|526.7|3.5|3.5|97|From Gas station near work back to Detroit – 101 km/hour for 97% this drive other then around the Detroit suburbs.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/639.png

P&G.

___She will eat anything alive other then an Insight that I have driven so far. A Prius which is a P&G’ers dream can compete but it doesn’t stand a chance with similar quality of drivers behind the windscreen of each. You want to go down to 12 mph, 20 mph, 25 mph with the top end at 25, 30 or 40 mph and she will give you 100 +. (See pics later in this thread).

EPS during a Glide.

___This European Civic is EPS equipped. When starting off on a down slope in N with the car booted up, (those that you can get it to roll down anyway), you will be without PS which is expected. About 10 seconds into the powerless glide, the EPS comes to life and anyone that has experienced a PS to non-PS or back transition while in a turn knows it arrives unexpectedly and is definitely unwelcome. Nothing most hypermilers have not experienced in an EPS equipped hybrid before but you do have to understand the EPS’ shortcomings while using an advanced technique is all.

Appearance.

___Talk about an interesting looking vehicle. This thing is attracts more attention then the Insight did. While at the Sunoco station a mile from her pick up point in Birmingham, MI., there was a car guy from Saleen Bodyworks or Painting (I forgot the exact name?) that came over and had a good look. He says whenever he sees manufacturer plates on a unique looking vehicle, he gets interested. Another driver in a Taurus almost ran into a pump when he was leaving that station while rubber-necking the Civic hatch sitting in the diesel island. At the MaHG meet in the Culvers parking lot yesterday, there were 5 or 6 passerby’s that stopped and looked over the vehicle that some of the attendees had noticed during the actual meet. On the way back from Bradlee’s home yesterday afternoon, there was a guy in an 03 – 05 Civic that pulled a camera out and started snapping pics while pacing me down the highway. I gave him a thumbs up. A Hispanic individual in the back seat of a suburban stuck his head out the window as they passed while we were both traveling down the Interstate. He was yelling at the driver to slow down so I would slowly pass. I gave him the thumbs up too :) Honda should take notice of this kind of activity because this hatch with its unique hatch lines is an attention grabber. The rear end with its integrated spoiler is a meld from the old Merkur XR4Ti (I owned one of those once ;)) and a Prius by all appearances. Really a unique looking vehicle and this is the base model with plastic hubcaps!

Sightlines.

___The Civic iCDTi’s rear hatch area has a blind spot due to the rather large C-Pillar. The looks and function are great but the large width of those pillars draw a large blind spot that you have to be careful with. I will make more comment about the front views when I take yet another drive but I did not make a mental note to discuss any negatives about the view out the windscreen or side windows so there are probably no issues to speak of.

Ventilation.

___This is an area where there are a few chinks in Honda’s armor. The A/C is great and hardly pulls this diesel down while I had to use it for defrosting the windscreen in heavy rain this afternoon. You can still maintain < 3.0L/100 km per the iFCD while using it on the highway. The fan CFM is where she falls on her face a bit. Even with the FAN maxxed out, there is not nearly the flow coming from the vents as most other vehicles. When revved up that high, there is a slight buzzing as if a leaf were contacting the fan itself? Just a slight buzz that I did not notice the previous 3 days?

___All of this info with pics will be in the final review with more pics as well as more detail and discussion about Honda’s own upcoming exhaust treatment.

___If you have any questions I have not answered or posted incorrectly (this is an entirely different and new car for me), fire away and I will do my best to answer them as quick as I can with the little time I have the vehicle for.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Jeff, as we spoke previously in the Pre-view, I know you would love this car. Discs, performance (0 – 60 in 8.5 that tops out at just a touch below 130 mph), handling and highway FE to die for. I will work on the city/suburban/country road FE lat4er this week.

Sounds like the same top end as my Civic's limited 127 mph. While the MZ3 is limited to 117 mph. I know I know,,, we shouldn't drive those speeds muchless on public roads. I dont make it a practice to top end run machines on public roads. But it has happened. So save it.

It looks like its 0-60 times are very much inline with R-18's and twice the mpg.

I really want to know about the brakes. Not so much the C&D, MT and R&T numbers. But real world.

God I want to drive this car! I bet Wayne and I would have a hoot in this ride.... My test loop isn't Tonkawa. :p

Psst,,, psst,,, road trip Oklahoma. :D Randall and I can add color to the road test. LMAO :rolleyes:


Might even beable to get Scott Thompson from news on 6 on the job.... Bait Bait. :)

Please get conter point or input from another respected hypermiler. I hope Bradlee and Justin drove the car. This thing needs to be passed around like a HOT ROCK!!!!!!

Hi All:

___A few more pics …

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Driving_pic.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Side_Profile.jpg
Professional shots – Driving and profile.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Top_of_Hatch_view.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Start_button.jpg
Top view of rear hatch at speed. – Start Button up close and personal.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_driveway_pic.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Front_Seat_Interior.jpg
Front Corner Profile in the drive. – Working end of the Civic iCDTi.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Rear_Magic_Seats_Folded_Up.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Rear_Magic_Seats_-_Passenger_side_seat_folded_up.jpg
Both rear seats folded up – Magic Seats – Passenger side rear folded up.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Rear_Hatch_-_Storage.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Rear_Hatch_-_Hidden_compartment_with_safety_gear.jpg
Hatch storage area w/ Carry-on for perspective – Rear Hatch – Hidden compartment w/ stranded vehicle safety gear.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Abused_Dunlop_Sport_2000_E_-_205-55_R16.jpghttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Dunlop_Sport_2000_E_-_205-55_R16_-_51_Max_Sidewall.jpg
Abused front tires after just 3,000 miles :ccry: - Dunlop Sport 2000 E 205/55 R16’s - 51 #’s max sidewall :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, this is fabulous stuff! :D

A few questions:

How hard is this car to bump start?

I know you said the compression ratio is much lower than another diesel you'd seen, but I didn't see the numbers anywhere?

Do you have any idea how resilient it is to cold weather? I've heard of "gelling" issues with diesels in low temperatures...

Does the clutch have a good feel to it?

Any idea how the heck you could wire up a FAS switch in this sucker with no spark plugs??

Can I borrow it? ;)

I don't think you would FAS a diesel. The consumption rates at idle are so low (a fraction of an equivalent gasoline ICE) that it wouldn't be worth the effort, especially considering the extra cranking effort due to much higher compression.

Hi All:

___A few quick notes … As some are saying this very second, “A few quick notes from Wayne … yeah right” :rolleyes: ;)

...


The stick.

___Because it is a 6-speed, I am a bit apprehensive to drop the stick down from 5th to 6th in fear of catching Reverse instead. The sticks shift lines are in close proximity to one another and it is a bit notchy? I have sometimes shifted from 5th back to 4th because of the narrower channels then I am used to on the US built sticks? Maybe all 6-speeds are this way and it just takes some getting used to. I am getting better but the fear of catching R is making my 5th to 6th shift tentative at best. With sticks, I traverse from one gear to the next as fast as humanly possible before letting the clutch out and bringing the mill back online for propulsion. The small width shift lines are hampering my ability to do that as of this writing.

I believe the transmission is the same (or very similar) to what I have on my USDM Civic Si Coupe.

There's a lockout - you can't get R by mistake. And R is *WAY* over to the right. USE that 6th gear. I'm using it all the time in my torqueless wonder K20Z3, you should be as well with the 2.2 iCDTi.

And you'll get more comfortable with the close gates if you keep thumb up on 1-2, thumb right on 3-4 (push with the heel of your hand, pull with your fingers), and thumb down on 5-6. You almost certainly have the push to the right away from you as part of muscle memory for the 5th gear from driving your Accord. It won't take you much longer to get used to the feel of pull to the right to get 6th.

The centering spring on the shift lever is STRONG and will get you into 3-4 if you don't hold left on 1-2 or hold right on 5-6.

One caution - after you get used to the Civic's 6 speed, you'll need to be careful getting back into your Accord. You probably won't actually be able to get the Accord into R, but it will make really awful sounds when you try to.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "...travers[ing] from one gear to the next as fast as humanly possible before letting the clutch out and bringing the mill back online for propulsion." This is shifting while FAS? What's the rush?

To give you a bit more confidence, rubbing of shift positions of the stock positions (and short-shifter positions) of the 6 speed. See, R is *way* over to the right. AND there's a lockout.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/mrbill05/short-shifter-4.png

-mr. bill

Wayne, this is fabulous stuff! :D

A few questions:
.......

Do you have any idea how resilient it is to cold weather? I've heard of "gelling" issues with diesels in low temperatures...

...........
;)

Gelling is mainly a question about your diesel fuel supplier at the beginning of the cold season. Do they switch over to fuel with the winter additives soon enough?

A good hypermiler might need to put a bottle of cetane additive in her tank because she mightn't need to fill up after the fuel switch before the weather got cold. Gelling is easy to manage if you pay attention.

Durability/effectiveness of glowplugs to maintain cold weather startablilty would be my main cold weather concern.

I believe the transmission is the same (or very similar) to what I have on my USDM Civic Si Coupe.


Bill, is it just a close ratio setup for the 6 gears or is it a cruising top gear past what a typical 5th gear would be? I've wanted one of those (a higher ratio cruising gear) FOREVER!!


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "...travers[ing] from one gear to the next as fast as humanly possible before letting the clutch out and bringing the mill back online for propulsion." This is shifting while FAS? What's the rush?


I think he means just while driving normally -- I do that too. Sometimes (very seldom at this point) I don't time the clutch just right and get a little grind. :o

Hi Sean:

___Clutch starting this thing is as easy as anything else I have driven with a stick. At 30 kph, drop her into 4th and up she comes right up with no jerk. I am getting smoother but have yet to approach the seamless start of the Ranger yet. I am working on it however.

___Compression ratio is 16:1.

___Here in NA, the refiners switch to Diesel A for the colder climates in winter and thus the trucking industry does not shut down during the coldest part of the year up north. There are a ton of additives the diesel fanatics use but from what I have read, you don’t need to do anything other then a block heater when its 20 below 0 (Fahrenheit). Bio-D can gel so you want to be careful with the %. B10 max below 10 degrees maybe?

___The clutch is smooth. With the high torque, it is tough to stall but I have read some have stalled this monster.

___Fas’ing happens as fast as you turn the key. No screwing around and waiting for her to stop dieseling.

___You can borrow it in about 2 years :D

___Mr. Bill, thanks for the tips on the close nature of the 6-speed. I will mess with the 6 to reverse in the drive tomorrow morning. Those graphs give me a lot more confidence with what I can and cannot do with her!

___As for the Accord, she is an auto so I will not have any problem with that transition unfortunately :(

___About quick shifting. There is only one reason for the ICE to be running and that is for propelling the car, not for idling down between shifts and back up again to accel in the next gear. I use the finger pull and palm push in it so it is easy to manipulate but the close nature is a bit tougher to get used to then I expected is all.

___ILAveo, from what I have read, the iCDTi has some of the best glow plug like devices in the business.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

...

There is only one reason for the ICE to be running and that is for propelling the car, not for idling down between shifts and back up again to accel in the next gear.

The flywheel will keep you from idling during the shift.

Foot completely off the accelerator on the upshift and take your time, just not too much time. The ideal shift you'll engage the clutch just as the revs match and just as you get back on the accelerator. The ECU will shut off the injectors during the spin down. Not even a DBW throttle hang on the iCDTi, since, well, there isn't a throttle.

-mr. bill

___You can borrow it in about 2 years :D


... minus 1yr, 11mo, 28days? ;)

Seriously though, thanks for all the great info! Do we know what kind of FE hit the cleanup tech will incur?

Hi Mr. Bill:

___Applying power and keeping it applied during the pulse is the most fuel efficient method to a sticks acceleration. The Ranger offers stupid high FE using this method and it appears to work that way with this diesel as well? Are you talking about from a FAS? In that case, there is definitely no rush.

___I was just happy to see your graphics on how far R is out from 6th and I suspect this 6-speed is just like your Si’s too.

___Sean, I was saving this for the review write-up but with some 65 series Michelin Energy’s or Dunlop SP20 FE’s vs. the performance 55 series meats, I think the FE hit from the new emissions gear can be overcome with no losses. Get the toe in back to 0 and its capability may even be better if that is the problem with the shortened glides in this iCDTi?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Feathered tires. They were not sport fasing it were they. :)

This is getting me kinda curious about a meta-question.
Wayne, how are you managing to review all these vehicles?
Is there an organization behind this?
.
_H*

At the risk of sounding stupid (never stopped me before), this really trivial thing is bugging me--Where are the back door handles? I don't see them in the pictures; it makes the car's lines look a lot cleaner.

Hi Jeff:

___About your earlier question(s). I have no idea about the binders in an E-Stop and you know me, that is the last thing I would be trying out ;) The other questions. The review agreement I signed for this vehicle states I cannot allow others to drive it including family. If I had a week off, I would be glad to drive her down to your locale so you and Randall could have a peek but I unfortunately do not :( About those tires … My 95K mile Michelins look better then these with 4K + on them now!

___Al, owning CleanMPG, being a member of the APA for the past two years and writing up most of the articles, Autoshow press events, reviews and some news, (Eric led me down the proper path for all of this) here allows some rather unique access including the ability to test new vehicles for a week at a time with those I have setup so far. The Prius’ came from Cheryl because I could not wait for the 08’s from Toyota. I wanted to test a Prius-I for quite some time but knew of nobody that owned one other then Cheryl and Doug (DAS). Doug lives a little bit too far away but the future Toyota’s will come from Toyota themselves. The European iCDTi came through a Turbo-diesel ride and drive presentation sponsored by the APA and Honeywell Technologies in Detroit a few months ago. Driving out to Detroit every few months sucks but there are some of the best new automobile technology presentations available there. The car handling company is the one I was in direct contact with and God bless Ryan for allowing me the opportunity to drive the premier turbo-diesel in the world for a week is all I have to say!

___For the LA Autoshow Press event, Rich and I are planning on driving Route 66 from just south of Chicago to LA. We are working on taking a European sourced BMW 330D out for that week long excursion. The larger and even more performance oriented diesel review would be a great read with two hypermilers behind the wheel driving the mother road for maximum FE but there are no guarantees. We might be driving a TCH, an FEH or maybe just the Accord?

___ILAveo, they are in the black recesses. Here is a pic of the handles up close and the original from which it came.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Rear_door_handles.jpg
Rear door handle.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Driveway_side_profile.jpg
Honda Civic iCDTi – in the drive side profile.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Excellent review... so much covered, but I didn't see anything on legroom. Is it better than your Accord or better yet in the same league as the XR4?

Hi 2TonJellyBean:

___This is more like an iCDTi blog then a review. The Accord has more leg room front and rear but it’s the drivers ergonomics that are better in this Civic then the Accord. There is enough room for maybe a 6’-5” individual with the seat all the way back and that should be plenty. It is narrower then the Accord by a way as well.

I have a lot to add for the full-blown review ;)

___Mr. Bill, oh boy rowing the gears without fear of an accidental shift into R shift makes this thing a lot more fun now :D Thank you very much!

___I think the following needs little in the way of explanation and especially given the conditions :rolleyes:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_First_P_G_-_112_mpg.jpg
10 km of this was running at idle in 6th gear yielding ~ 2.7. I started a P&G routine afterwards and the numbers went through the roof! This included one 65 mph – 1 mile long blast as there are two places where I have to run the 65 mph limited Interstate to cross (2) rivers. 5 -15 mph headwind but fortunately, it had not started raining yet. I cannot wait to try this again tomorrow afternoon with no experimenting for the first 25% of the drive ;)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_84_kph_-_2l_per_100_km_rain_-_eco_lights_and_radio_display.jpg
Not the best pic but it shows the (6) ECO lights all lit, the iFCD at 2L/100 km, the radio info display, temp setting at Lo with fan maxxed in a hellacious downpour at 53 mph.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_94_1_mpg_in_heavy_rain_and_5_-_15_mph_headwind.jpg
3:30 minutes with 25 miles of horrid stop and crawl. 12 – 21 degrees C with 5 – 15 mph headwind and a heavy downpour over ~ 55 km of this drive. Held onto 2.4 until O’Hare but the rain finally took its toll :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Thanks... I was holding out hope that when we eventually replace our Accord it will be with something that has more legroom. My '85 Civic was great for my legs and I also love all the legroom in the 2003-2004 Civic SiRs that came here from the UK with the 2 litre engines.

So, can you get under 2? ;)

This car just sounds sweeter and SWEETER! :D

So... any thought to that video podcast we suggested a while back? :bananajump:

Oh, and I just happen to be exactly 6'5" tall. :D :D :D

You know Sean, Hyundai could probably hit one right out of the park if they stuck the new 3 litre V6 diesel / 6 speed auto that they are developing for the European VeraCruz into the North American VeraCruz, Azera, Sonata and Santa Fe.

The Santa Fe would be incredible with it for a 6'5 guy. I'm taller, mostly legs and it is great for space - a rare treat to actually fit nicely into a car. Joel Piaskowski's last design was the Buick Lucerne, but his Hyundai studio in California did a great job on building the Santa Fe to fit those of us who used to fit in cars until safety equipment, stuffing and interior styling took away our folding spaces. The Santa Fe with the 3 litre would have opened my wallet much wider - and I'd have been happy to pay the premium if they're listening.

Everywhere other than Canada and the USA offers the 2.2 litre CRD on the Santa Fe although even with a manual it is leisurely in many people's opinions with a 0-60 or around 12 seconds. Great torque and economy... some day they'll arrive.

I hope...

Hi, 2TJB!! I've driven a few Santa Fe's and until the most recent one I found they actually had less space for the driver than my '02 Elantra. The new one is pretty nice but I just can't seem to get excited about SUVs and the numbers they put out? I tend to go for the smallest car I can fit in reasonably for maneuverability and economy reasons.

What sorts of numbers is this 3ltr putting out? I'm sure the 6spd auto helps out nicely...

Wow! This is the car I've been most excited about in years! Wayne, those numbers are amazing! Besides, it looks great!

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/070911-6.htm

----- ----- ----- ----- -----

Right Lane, the Santa Fe was the smallest vehicle I fit in except the Rabbit and it's Mexican built 2.5 litre 5 cylinder wasn't exactly frugal either. The Vibe/Matrix was close to a fit.

Hyundai is supposed to have this in the VeraCruz by 2010 at the latest, but they could stick one in my SF today if they want to. ;-)

I'm not at all sure what the new 3 litre V6 will be capable of mileage wise - it really depends what it goes into and it will be about 240 hp but hopefully the electronic turbo control allows it great flexibility for economy as well. The press on it is interesting.

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/press/newsArticle.aspx?id=126

Hi All:

___A few more pics.

___She is spec’ed for 13.2 gallons but held 13.935. I guess there is no vapor recovery HW since diesel does not evaporate like gasoline?

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_1_890_3_km_-_2_8L_per_100_km_at_the_fill.jpg
2.8L/100 km after 1,890.3 km - 1,174.6 miles at 84.0 mpg per the FCD with 84.3 mpg calculated top off to top off.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_filling_up_with_B20.jpg
After her fill at the B20 Biodiesel pump.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Low_Fuel_Graphic_on_the_FCD.jpg
Annoying Low Fuel graphic inside the FCD and alongside the Empty at (0) Fuel gauge. Darn thing was popping up every time I cycled the FCD’s and info screens.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/Speedo_-_ECO_-_i_for_low_fuel.jpg
Yet another warning about low fuel. She went 175 miles beyond the low fuel light and 185 km beyond 0 DTE per the OEM FCD.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/E85_-_BioDiesel_fuels_sold_here.jpg
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/BioDiesel_Pump.jpg
These will show up as News pics sometime :rolleyes:

___A little warning about running a Diesel to fuel starve. Be prepared to pull a fuel line coupling to bleed the air build up and/or prime the low pressure fuel tank pump. Guess what I spent a portion of my afternoon doing :(

http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/639.png

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne - I'm very jealous. Hopefully I'll be able to sample this engine for myself in a couple years. How are the sound levels out of that engine? I was in Europe for a couple weeks a month ago and kept my eyes and ears open but never saw an i-CTDi while I was walking around. BMW's and even the cheap French diesels were far quieter than any VW TDI I've encountered though so I imagine the Honda will be similar? A video with you talking while the engine is on would be great if you have the time and resources.

Has anybody mentioned any concerns to you about the turbo FAS'ing at higher speeds? Diesels have lower exhaust gas temperatures than gas engines but people in the know with TDI's still seem to recommend a minute or two of city speed driving after coming off highways before shutting the engine town, in order to let the turbo cool.

I don't know why this is but modern diesel ECU's seem to be programmed to try to keep the engine from stalling when RPM's drop. My car does the same thing, it can be run through the gears to 5th without touching the accelerator. I wish gas cars could be programmed do the same.

Regarding the weak HVAC system, try hitting the recirculate button if there is one. In my car, that seems to turn on a second fan and gives a good boost in airflow. That might be how things work in European cars for some reason. I don't think it would do much for your defrosting / defogging though.

___She is spec’ed for 13.2 gallons but held 13.935. I guess there is no vapor recovery HW since diesel does not evaporate like gasoline?
...
2.8L/100 km after 1,890.3 km - 1,174.6 miles at 84.0 mpg per the FCD with 84.3 mpg calculated top off to top off.
...
She went 175 miles beyond the low fuel light and 185 km beyond 0 DTE per the OEM FCD.
...
___A little warning about running a Diesel to fuel starve. Be prepared to pull a fuel line coupling to bleed the air build up and/or prime the low pressure fuel tank pump. Guess what I spent a portion of my afternoon doing :(


Neat! That is awfully darned close to a 1200mi tank!!! :eek: Wonder what Honda would say to that info???

175mi is a really nice and long range before needing a pump. I like it! :D

I've never run a car out of gas before and always wondered if there was anything you needed to do to prime it. I take it you've not needed to do this for the gasoline cars you've run dry? Any concerns about the fuel pumps themselves?

Oh, and where is that waiting list again? ;)

One more question -- this is probably just silly but I noticed in your fill pic at the top of this post that the fuel appeared dark BLUE?? Why is that? :confused:

Neat! That is awfully darned close to a 1200mi tank!!! :eek: Wonder what Honda would say to that info???

175mi is a really nice and long range before needing a pump. I like it! :D

I've never run a car out of gas before and always wondered if there was anything you needed to do to prime it. I take it you've not needed to do this for the gasoline cars you've run dry? Any concerns about the fuel pumps themselves?

Oh, and where is that waiting list again? ;)

One more question -- this is probably just silly but I noticed in your fill pic at the top of this post that the fuel appeared dark BLUE?? Why is that? :confused:
I am pretty sure diesel fuel pumps are designed to use the natural lubricity that diesel fuel has so it's probably not good for the pump to run without fuel. The engine will likely stall soon afterwards though so damage would be limited by my guess -- but others may have more insight into this than me.

Diesel fuel seems to come in an array of interesting colors. I've seen blue, green, and yellowish like gasoline. I have no idea why it's like that.

Neat! That is awfully darned close to a 1200mi tank!!!

.......

One more question -- this is probably just silly but I noticed in your fill pic at the top of this post that the fuel appeared dark BLUE?? Why is that? :confused:

Diesel is dyed depending on the road tax (at least in IL/IA). Green for road tax paid, red for off-road/farm diesel that's not road taxed, jet fuel (much like diesel and burns OK in diesel engines) undyed and not road taxed. Big fines are assessed if you're caught on the road without the right dye in your tank. It also helps you figure out which storage tank is the leaker. ;) I've never paid attention to see if biodiesel is dyed a different color, but I think the color in the picture might be a little off...

Hi Sefton:

___The iCDTi is very quiet from the outside although I only let it run for less then 2 minutes when priming the low pressure fuel pump yesterday. You can easily have a standard conversation with it idling in the background. Not as quiet as a gas only vehicle given you cannot hear some of those idling even when they are running, but quiet enough not to have to raise you voice when talking to someone standing right next to the iCDTi. From inside, the only time you hear the 2.2L is during an accel from very low RPM’s when she clatter’s a touch. At speed, you don’t hear her at all.

___FAS’ing from any speed with a TDI may be a no-no given it is in at least the 04 Jetta TDI manual to let it idle for a 30 or so seconds. I was speaking to a technology lead of Honeywell about the latest Euro diesel turbo’s and how the average driver treats them. Do they shut them down when they arrive home or do they let the turbo spool down while idling for a few seconds first? He said everyone he knows including him and his wife just shut them down and Honeywell was not having warranty issues with the 7.5 million they have on the road overseas.

___Strange about the ability to bring the diesels all the way up through the gears while idling, isn’t it? I can bring her up through 6th and never touch the accelerator although that is not the most efficient way to bring her up to temp or for MAX FE in my limited experience.

___The Fan while in recirc does indeed add a whole lot more CFM but its recirc and that is the last thing I would be using other then if I were running A/C :( Thank you for the tip!

___Sean, I only run the first tanks dry to come up with a total tank cap, how many gallons are left at the low fuel light or low fuel warning initiation, ~how far you can drive at a given FE before you run dry nad to calibrate the OEM FCD’s or a SG-II. I just missed a hill top and lost the prime with one more start trying to get over the crest less then 2 blocks from the station. The 1.999 gallon of B20 in the fuel container did not allow the prime so I pushed her into the stations lot and topped her off. It still wasn’t enough :( A local mechanic had a crescent wrench and we pulled a fuel coupling into the common rail. Once that thing was solid, connected her back up and she was good as new. I would never run without fuel on the pack in a hybrid or try and accelerate once she hits starve in a diesel or non-hybrid gasser today. There is just no point but I missed that short hill and got stupid :(

___The first diesel fill was in Birmingham, MI. from a Sunoco. It was straight Diesel #2 with a medium blue color. The B20 I filled her up with yesterday had a slight green and blue tint to it.

___ILAveo, yup. The red dyed non-road taxed diesel stuff (low sulfur heating oil) is what some of the F-250 and larger PowerStroke types are taking their chances with given what I know about it today ;)

___A nice commute home tonight … 21 – 26 degrees C with a 5 – 10 mph tail wind yielded the following.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_138_3_mpg_-_23_miles_to_the_Interstate.jpg
Not quite to the Insight level at MAX FE but she is getting closer. 138.3 mpg after 23 miles from the training center to the Interstate.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_112_0_mpg_-_102_2_miles_on_the_drive_home.jpg
112.0 mpg for the drive home this evening.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_94_1_mpg_-_294_6_miles_-_last_tank.jpg
This last tank is still holding at 94.x mpg’s after 294 miles.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

So what do you think us mere mortals could do with it on a mostly DWL-type highway cycle? 70mpg? 75? I know it's a completely different type of animal so I'm curious as to how it stacks up to the gasser hybrids that we all know and love.

What is your ave. mph Wayne?

Hi Tim and Jeff:

___The technique(s) I began using this afternoon appears to be working but if you are in a hurry, expect the 70 - 80 mpg numbers at 55 - 65 vs. the 80 – 100 mpg numbers at ~ 50 :(

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_84_kph_-_2l_per_100_km_rain_-_eco_lights_and_radio_display.jpg

___This thing has 3 efficiency modes and all appear to be related to the 3 sets of ECO LED’s shown in the pic above in the upper right corner next to the Speedometer. That pic was from earlier this week in the heavy rains. 6-LED’s lit appears to mean this thing is running on that single - low load – max FE - tuned swirl intake port and the highway numbers while DWL are between 1.9 and 2.9 L/100 km between 47 and 55 mph while DWL and DWB. With 4 LED’s lit during light accel’s, she will hold between 3 and 4L/100 km with an occasional peak of 5L/100 km. When you drop down to just 2 LED’s during a faster accel, 6 - 10L/100 km is the nasty result. What I did tonight is a little different. After realizing these ECO lights may mean more then just a lava lamp to peg for max FE, I thought back to that intake port tricks that Honda uses on the iCDTi. Tonight I pulled out all the stops and concentrated on keeping those ECO lights pegged through long up hill’s and either going into Fuel cut on the longer downhill’s or holding just 1L/100 KM while the iFCD begins its goofy dance between the two while on the highway. Above 57 is where you being to lose the 5th and 6th LED and that 2.9L/100 km maximum if that helps? These LED’s are tied together so you only see 0, 2, 4 or 6 lit, not any other combination.

___For the LS and MS P&G runs, I was using 3 ranges and I was using them in traffic with beyond Prius deadly results.

___For the 18 – 45 kph mostly unmolested P&G and stop and crawls, I was using 2nd and 3rd. A clutch start at 18 kmh and run 2nd up to 1,100 – 1,150 RPM. A very fast shift to 3rd and run that up to ~ 1,250 RPM’s at ~ 44/45 kph and FAS. This yielded as low as 1.6L/100 km (147 mpg) but she mostly held onto 138 after ~ 10 miles and even after the ¾ - 1 mile long blast to 65 mph before I get back off the Interstate and back onto a frontage road while crossing the Des Plaines River Bridge on I-55.

___For the 24 – 55 kph stop and crawls, I was using 3nd and 4th. A clutch start at 24 kmh and run 3rd up to ~ 1,350 RPM. A very fast shift to 4th and run that up to 1,400 RPM’s and FAS. This yielded as low as 2.0L /100 km (118 mpg) but she mostly held onto 2.1L/100 km or 112 mpg.

___Below 17 kph, you are stuck with the Push button start and a quick first and maybe second if you have built enough buffer and the traffic moved a few car lengths and then FAS … Avg. kph was 80 kph as of this morning and is sitting at 74 kph now. I do not believe the averaging calculator takes into account FAS time so maybe 60 - 65 kph is the average with yet another 3.5 hour stop and crawl tonight coming home. O’Hare was absolutely murder again tonight :angry: but the new found rate and ranges blew through all expectations.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, do you use similar ranges on a gas 5spd? Or is this a closer ratio so not quite the same?

The ranges you just listed out look similar to what I use on my Elantra but the ECU reboot times are just killing me.

Hi Sean:

___I use higher speeds and RPM’s in the gassers. For the Accord w/ Auto, she sucks fuel like a drunken sailor down that low so I will pull a max 2,350 – 2,400 RPM pull from maybe 15 on the bottom and 40 - 50 mph on the top and let her glide, glide, glide to wring anything out of her on the back roads or stop and crawls where applicable. The Ranger takes a slightly lower RPM (1,500 – 2,300) in whatever gear is appropriate for the traffic. A harder accel for sure but her top end falls apart due to the aero and gearing :(

___Tim, the iCDTi is about perfect for the L and MS P&G’s and darn near perfect in the Chicago style stop and crawls. The only place a hybrid (Prius) appears to have a leg up on the iCDTi is in that 3 – 10 mph stop and creep stuff where you can run a Prius under EV forever while the rest of us no matter what we are driving die a slow and painfully fuelish death ;) While ramped up to 60 +, only the Insight stands a chance. The iCDTi cannot quite grab onto what an Insight allows when it comes to FE on the LS P&G’s but she can take down an Insight at 55 +. With all the extra amenities, huge performance advantage and safety HW most crave in an automobile today; I see a lot of Insight’ers purchasing this exact vehicle when and if it becomes available here in the US without question. It is just weird that this thing has all these toys (4 range headlight leveling, ABS, 4-wheel discs, seat height adjustment, tilt and telescopic wheel, steering wheel controls, VSC, front, side and side curtains, heated mirrors and rear defrost, dual view drivers side mirror, a ton of radio controls and display(s), an HCH-II like FCD including some very interesting items on the TC screens albeit a tad smaller, magic seats, nice sized hatch with a cool under floor compartment … and this is the base!) yet allows some outlandish FE on both the highway and the city/suburban routes for those that want it. This thing pulled over 3X’s its Urban/Extra urban combined tonight on the back roads and the only other vehicles I have driven that are even remotely capable of that is the Insight and Ranger and both lack the toys most expect in their vehicles today!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Sean:

___I use higher speeds and RPM’s in the gassers. For the Accord w/ Auto, she sucks fuel like a drunken sailor down that low so I will pull a max 2,350 – 2,400 RPM pull from maybe 15 on the bottom and 40 - 50 mph on the top and let her glide, glide, glide to wring anything out of her on the back roads or stop and crawls where applicable. The Ranger takes a slightly lower RPM (1,500 – 2,300) in whatever gear is appropriate for the traffic. A harder accel for sure but her top end falls apart due to the aero and gearing :(


Hm, I essentially never pull pulses at those RPMs in the slow stuff. I'm always closer to what you listed out for the iCDTi ranges. Maybe I'm hurting myself on the low end??


___Tim, the iCDTi is about perfect for the L and MS P&G’s and darn near perfect in the Chicago style stop and crawls. The only place a hybrid (Prius) appears to have a leg up on the iCDTi is in that 3 – 10 mph stop and creep stuff where you can run a Prius under EV forever while the rest of us no matter what we are driving die a slow and painfully fuelish death ;) While ramped up to 60 +, only the Insight stands a chance. The iCDTi cannot quite grab onto what an Insight allows when it comes to FE on the LS P&G’s but she can take down an Insight at 55 +. With all the extra amenities, huge performance advantage and safety HW most crave in an automobile today; I see a lot of Insight’ers purchasing this exact vehicle when and if it becomes available here in the US without question. It is just weird that this thing has all these toys (4 range headlight leveling, ABS, 4-wheel discs, seat height adjustment, tilt and telescopic wheel, steering wheel controls, VSC, front, side and side curtains, heated mirrors and rear defrost, dual view drivers side mirror, a ton of radio controls and display(s), an HCH-II like FCD including some very interesting items on the TC screens albeit a tad smaller, magic seats, nice sized hatch with a cool under floor compartment … and this is the base!) yet allows some outlandish FE on both the highway and the city/suburban routes for those that want it. This thing pulled over 3X’s its Urban/Extra urban combined tonight on the back roads and the only other vehicles I have driven that are even remotely capable of that is the Insight and Ranger and both lack the toys most expect in their vehicles today!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It sounds like a dream but I fear that if they bring this to the states some of that stuff won't even be available when you add all the packages?? Shoot, I'd take it with cranked windows if it got me that kind of performance if it came down to that, though!

Hi Sean:

___I can only hope they bring this one over with a minimum of screwing it up for North American consumption?

___I experimented with some HS Close-ins this afternoon and the results were rather poor at best. 13 – 18 degrees C with 15 – 25 mph head/side winds to battle coming home this afternoon. I hit the Interstate at 117.6 and proceeded to lose it quickly with 60 – 75 mph Close-ins thinking it would help? Revs touched 2K at 71 mph if that means anything. Anyway, the 6 ECO bars could not be maintained for any length of time and the iFCD would run between 1 and 5 all the while the aFCD was climbing and climbing and climbing. She went from 2.0 to 2.4 L/100 over ~ 15 miles and I said that is about enough of that experiment for the day :( When I got home, I thought I had better take a good look under the car and find out why this thing can cruise at slower highway speeds without burning fuel like a mad man as well as why the HS Close-in’s did not maintain her numbers rather then dropping through the floor like they did?

___Here is what I saw …

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Front_-_Full_length_aero_underbody_panels.jpg
Front – Full length aero underbody panel.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/2007_Civic_iCDTi_Hatch_-_Rear_-_Full_length_aero_underbody_panels.jpg
Rear – Full length aero underbody panel.

___Not only was the bottom covered almost from front bumper fascia to rear bumper fascia, the rear tail pipe outlet(s) were in cased into the bumper structure and their was no gap from the under-body panel to the front bumper and none from the rear under-body panel into the rear bumper fascia either. I think Honda spent some time in the wind-tunnel with this vehicle given the attention to detail that this underbelly cover(s) revealed. Even the plastic push pin connectors are snugged up tight to the edges!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Holy cow -- that's some nice gearing!!! 2K RPM at 71mph??? Sheesh -- My car hits that at 50mph!! -- that 6th gear must be a high speed cruising gear, then? :D

I wonder what sort of gains I would see with a full underbody panel like that on my car?

It can't get to this market quickly enough. God only knows what the price per gallon is going to be in 2 years. :(

How much do you suppose it would cost to import one over here individually?