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View Full Version : A few quick notes on the Prius-II from a non-Prius-II owner


xcel
08-19-2007, 10:23 PM
Hi All:

___Dead stick glides work in the Prius-II just as they did in the Prius-I so the warm up hit can be managed with the right kind of initial route.

___The drivers seat bottom is a bit short for me and my right thigh is off the seat cushion while on the accelerator. I will work on a better driver position tomorrow.

___EV is much stronger (much less hit on the pack for an equivalent distance) then in the Prius-I.

___All 5-minute bars can be pegged in 63 - 64 degree temps and medium to light rain on my drive to the Interstate tonight. Not a chance of that in the Prius-I.

___Bluetooth … I cannot seem to upload my Motorola’s 815 address book to the Prius’ address book?

___TPMS ... Manual states a max 73 # tire pressure before the transducer evokes a TPMS warning.

___SG-II at 0% speed/distance and 0% Fuel use offset seems to be at least 10% off of the MFD :confused: I just started the SG-II calibration tonight so we shall see what comes of that?

___Tank was almost empty when it arrived. Drove 51 miles beyond the last blinking pip and added 12.2 gallons.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Right Lane Cruiser
08-19-2007, 10:46 PM
I can't wait for more!!

Look out guys, here comes another 1k+mi tank!!!! :D

Tochatihu
08-20-2007, 03:17 AM
Some tall folks have adjusted Prius driver seat by replacing the front 2 seat bolts with longer, and stacking washers under the rack to get more 'tilt back'. The rear bolts must be slightly loosened for that (and retightened when finished).

Don't mess up the fuel tank HC adsorber on somebody else's PII by overfilling, xcel :)

DAS

xcel
08-20-2007, 06:45 AM
Hi All:

___There is a bit more to the Dead-Stick Glide in the Prius-II then the -I. I am not sure of the exact procedure just yet but somehow I was able to hold ICE-Off after a 10 second pulse/start via cycling the power button but only had to shift back into D for her to start back up without goofing around with rebooting again? I have to figure that one out as I really liked this quick hit FAS w/out the dead stick mode of operation in order to reduce the warm-up hit.

___Also, if you do shift her to N before the 8-second (I think it is about 8 seconds?) system check from dead cold, you can keep the ICE-Off in case you have a downhill to begin your initial movement. Sort of like a FAS without the FAS?

___She hates rain and it has been raining like a beast in the Chicagoland area for the past 2 + days with another two projected so she is sitting a lot more then being driven.

___Doug, I had a good look at the bladder details and I don’t see how anything is going to get out of that and up into the canister. When you are full, there might be another miniscule .4 gal left to top off. Sad given the European’s and Japanese do not have that #%( *#!)$ Prius bladder and another ~ 15L + is available for much further range :angry:

___Great to hear about a method to fix that seat height/angle given I am sure my right thigh is going to be a bit fatigued over a longer drive. In Pittsburgh, I was probably to focused on the task at hand to worry about the seat ergonomics? Would you mind doing another peer review when this is complete?

___JimboK, can you do me a favor and watch current flows from a 70 mph down to 50 mph WS Glide? I saw some similar action as the -I with a back and forth no-arrow glide to pack through MG1 and back to a no arrow glide while slowing gently. The ICE was spinning over at 980 RPM as it should but the mimic can be held in a no-arrow and I want to know what current flows are doing while traversing this state? I don’t think this is the case but could MG2 be involved with this High speed WS no-arrow glide to keep the ICE spun up?

___SG-II was only under reporting by 3 this morning vs. the MFD. The actuals were a rather embarrassing at 67.3 in heavy rain with an average speed of 51 mph but she will get her chance once the SG-II is calibrated after a quick first pip to top off fill sometime later this week and when the weather clears :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

brick
08-20-2007, 08:07 AM
___Doug, I had a good look at the bladder details and I dont see how anything is going to get out of that and up into the canister. When you are full, there might be another miniscule .4 gal left to top off. Sad given the Europeans and Japanese do not have that #%( *#!)$ Prius bladder and another ~ 15L + is available for much further range :angry:


It has been done, and with expensive results. (Galaxee at PriusChat posted the details.) What you have to remember about the bladder is that gravity isn't the only force working on that fuel. If the tank is completely full and then fuel expands during the heat of the day, the bladder acts like a balloon and forces the fuel out of any available path of least resistance. That can be (and at least a few times has been) into the EVAP canister which gets saturated and fails. Sadly the only way to repair the damage is to replace the entire freaking fuel tank. (Another example of cars being designed for manufacture but definitely NOT for serviceability.)

The one thing you have going for you is a long-ish commute. If you fill in the evening before heading home (or in, as it may be) and then head back the other direction the following morning you should have burned off enough fuel to overcome the expansion. But hey, what do I know...

xcel
08-20-2007, 08:11 AM
Hi Tim:

___Thanks for the details. She saw about a gallon and a quarter consumed after the fill and I will continue that practice so she is good to go.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

JimboK
08-20-2007, 08:11 AM
JimboK, can you do me a favor and watch current flows from a 70 mph down to 50 mph WS Glide?
You're asking me to go 70??? :eek: What's this world coming to?!

I think it's in the neighborhood of 10 amps, but I'll see if I can get it onto the highway in the next day or two to verify.

hobbit
08-20-2007, 09:30 AM
I ran across an interesting technique over on iATN for trying
to clear the canister: get the engine idling, force the purge
solenoid open with a scantool, and let it sit there pulling
vapor through the intake for half an hour or more. The theory
is to pull enough air back through the vent canister to dry it
out, basically. Dunno if it would work on a prius, and some
of that purge air goes through the tank between the outer shell
and the bladder as an additional leak-detection technique [i.e.
the system uses the A/F sensor to look for additional vapor]
so it might take even longer than with a conventional car.
.
Warp-stealth currents on the "plateau" are generally on the
order of 10 amps, but with *very* fine foot control you can
regulate between that and the -20 amps of regen and find zero.
The MFD will go to a no-arrows state around 0 amps but that's
really difficult to find and hold without a current meter.
.
As regards motor torques -- never assume that anything is happening
solely with MG1 or MG2. Torque commands are generally sent to
both, to balance out everything going on between them and the
engine and driver demand eventually showing up at the wheels.
Even something simple as starting the ICE at a standstill involves
a little back-torque in MG2 to counteract the forward spin that
MG1 is supplying. The net result of wherever power flows to
is what shows up as battery current, but that doesn't show what's
going between the motors internally to the inverter.
.
_H*

locutus
08-20-2007, 10:43 AM
Uh-oh, Wayne gets a hold of a P-II... ;)

- Can you explain "Dead-Stick Glide"?
- N within 8 seconds of powering on will indeed prevent the immediate S1. You'll still need to go through it at some point but you can prevent it on startup this way.
- Odd, my SG with no calibration has been pretty much dead-on in terms of MPG, though distance seems to be about 1% under-reported.

brick
08-20-2007, 11:10 AM
The MFD will go to a no-arrows state around 0 amps but that's
really difficult to find and hold without a current meter.


I got pretty good at hitting it by letting all the way off the pedal and then just **barely** touching it to kill regen. To my butt-o-meter at ~60mph, no arrows doesn't seem to gain a whole lot vs. backing all the way off in terms of drag and glide distances. It's odd because the car noticeably "lets go" once the MFD shows a little juice flowing out of the battery. If nobody had told me otherwise, I'd think that the range was almost zero amps of regen out to something measurable on the assist side.

xcel
08-20-2007, 09:10 PM
Hi Jim:

___Yup ;)

___Al, thanks for the info. I have been waiting to hear about MG2 doing its thing and holding no-arrows at 60 + down is pretty cool. Even if it doesn’t add anything, it is still cool :D

___Jerad, read the Prius-I review techniques. The thing that was ticking me off was the 40 mpg garbage after a mile or two. With the Dead-Stick Glide, the P-II allowed 70 within a mile in heavy rain and the SoC was holding at 4 of 8. I love the fact that the P-II’s thermos bottle brings you right into S2 immediately vs. working your @$$ off with the P-I!

___Tim, I was playing around with HS P&G tonight and it doesn’t work very well. I should have listened to you long ago. The SG-II was 3 under when I got home again tonight. That appears to be the offset. I will be filling from the cal on Wednesday morning.

___Although there is a ton of rain holding her back, the OEM moly loaded goo still needs to be changed out and I have not yet pressed everything up, the P-II just doesn’t seem to hold 75 out on the highway no matter the speed as of this write-up. A well setup P-I would hold that all day long? 100 + unmolested and at a snail pace is a gimme but holding 75 + on the highway is really throwing me for a loop :( 78.5 into the drive tonight and it was a lot of work!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan
08-20-2007, 10:35 PM
Uh-oh, Wayne gets a hold of a P-II... ;)
Ditto on your Yikes.

Interesting about dead-stick glides. On my '07 Prius, the Power button will also throw the parking clamp down, so I've kept my hand off of it. I heard that it will just give you the polite beep-beep PriusII refusal to do what the dumb human requested.

As far as S1 goes, from READY to ICE-on, comes to 14.0 seconds on my stopwatch. Very consistent. I never timed it from "D" to ICE-on, but figured that READY started the timer.

I've also done a lot of work on SG calibration. Here's my latest results.

Size - Closest you can get on the SG is 1.5L, actual is 1.496L. So SG overstates displacement by 0.27%

Distance - If calibrated to the odometer, SG understates distance by 1.40% (0.13%). This may line up well with physical distance traveled. It's been speculated that many cars overstate miles to gain more frequent services (1.4% of a billion dollar business is a lot).

Fuel Consumption - If calibrated to the MFD, fuel consumption is overstated by 3.98% (0.51%). This actually turns out to be pretty close to the physical consumption, since I know that the MFD overstates my tank MPG by about 4%. So if calibrated to physical consumption, it's probably pretty close to spot-on.

MPG Calculation - A bit of math with the other two calculations (and a bit of field work) show that SG understates MPG by 5.73% (0.76%).

If you know how much you want your MPG calibration factors to be, there is a utility (I posted in files) that will tell you what Distance and Fuel Consumption calibrations you need to enter. Right now mine is set to Distance: 0%, FC: -5.9% which gives me (because of the inverse nature of the ratio) +6.27% adjustment to MPG. After a bit more data collection I will change my calibrations to Distance: +1%, FC: -4.5% which will yield an MPG adjustment of +5.76%

Once you know your exact figures there is a trick in the SG FW to allow you to enter discrete calibrations on FILLUP. At your next fillup, go through FILLUP on SG *twice*. On the second FILLUP with GALLONS at 0.0, the left and right calibrations will simply adjust the calibration percent by 0.1% increments.

Look forward to hearing what we need to be shooting for.

- Odd, my SG with no calibration has been pretty much dead-on in terms of MPG, though distance seems to be about 1% under-reported.
Jared, your hitting those numbers with no SG calibrations? Do you find SGII to be true compared to MFD or compared to your gas receipts?

11011011

locutus
08-20-2007, 11:25 PM
Jared, your hitting those numbers with no SG calibrations? Do you find SGII to be true compared to MFD or compared to your gas receipts?

11011011

Before I had the SG I was calculating trip MPG based on MFD and TRIP A/B before/after. Once I got the SG I added a column to my spreadsheet for the SG-reported trip MPG and started recording that as well. Some 98% of the time the SG-reported has been within the error bounds of what I was doing before using the MFD numbers (recent example: MFD 73.7 +/- 6.8, SG 76.1). Over my ~20k miles my MFD has been ~2.6% optimistic, so I guess technically I should recalibrate the SG to reflect this.

mparrish
08-21-2007, 11:07 AM
Distance - If calibrated to the odometer, SG understates distance by 1.40% (0.13%). This may line up well with physical distance traveled. It's been speculated that many cars overstate miles to gain more frequent services (1.4% of a billion dollar business is a lot).


Never thought about that. How clever. I too noticed this understating by ~1%, and calibrated SG to match the Prius ODO. But I will probably get out and do a mileage marker test now.

JimboK
08-21-2007, 05:34 PM
JimboK, can you do me a favor and watch current flows from a 70 mph down to 50 mph WS Glide?
OK, I tried. Hit the highway after work. Had some thunderstorms on the radar several miles to the west, but I figured I could beat 'em. Wrong. By the time I got up the road to a decent WS spot, 3 miles or so, they were on me with all their fury. I'll try again tomorrow, unless Hobbit's confirmation is sufficient.

JimboK
08-22-2007, 07:55 PM
OK, got 'er up to speed today for the 70-50 WS: It hovered a little over 10A, bouncing up to 14 or so at times at the higher speed. The bounces seemed a little lower as I approached 50, though it still stayed above 10.

One of these days I'll get my data logging working and I can offer a continuous record for things like this. :(

xcel
08-27-2007, 11:53 AM
Hi All:

___A few updates before heading back out to battle the rest of Chicago …

___This vehicle is the most frustrating vehicle a person could love. For those that push it anyway. Load is almost always up in the 70 – 85% range under any number of scenarios including steady state cruise so you cannot wring much more out of her using the tricks that work for everything else. I also believe the slower speed highway capabilities of the –I are better then the –II. The –I would hold ~ 75 at 47 – 50 whereas the –II will only hold 70. The –I would not hold squat at 60 whereas the –II will hold 60 + all day long.

___Pulling 99.9 over any lengthy and unmolested section is awesome in the –II but … Pulled up to the highway after 18 miles of solid P&G at 99.9 Not 18 miles later and I was down in the 78 range. After 47 miles I was all the way down to 71.3 :angry: I left the Interstate after 85 miles at 75.5 and brought her back up to 78.6 or .7 into the drive. Frustrating and infuriating to see the huge drop off on a section of highway leg like that? Temps in the high 50’s to mid 60’s did not help but I am sure I speak to the choir about temps and the Prius-II …

___Another weird item … On the way to work yesterday afternoon, a traffic slowdown from 60 + to almost 0 brought her SoC up into the 7 of 8 bars (light green) and I held it there for over 20 minutes. During that time, her highway FE was holding in the 75 range at 50 + mph. Once that 7th bar dropped, her highway FE dropped back into the 70 range. I just don’t know a good way to coax her into the 7th + bar range although holding her there is as simple as DWL and stay the heck off assist seen though the mimic is going crazy showing the P-II trying to dump that excess energy ASAP.

____Jim about WS, was there any change in current as you went from Yellow (pack to the ICE) to no arrows that you can remember?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan
08-27-2007, 12:19 PM
Wayne, I assume the PriusI and Honda's are like this, but in the Prius II SoC is a huge governing factor for me. WS is pretty easy to catch at a high 6 bar SoC, but at low 6, 5, or 4 it gets very hard to catch, and I've never been able to hit WS at 3 bars. I noticed that stuff like headlights and the climate control fan will hinder my abilities to hit WS at 5 bars as well. Once I get to the high 6 (which is where it seems to live on the HW) WS is pretty consistent, but the sweet-spot seems to move around a bit as you slow down causing me to fall off the glide from time to time. This has been what I've been concentrating on for the last few weeks.

Another oddity is the 4th bar "shift". If you have a low 4 SoC and you pulse up at around 1600 rpm, eventually you will feel what seems like an AT shift into high gear followed by a drop in RPM down to about 1300. So it seems consitant that at low SoC the pack robs more power from the engine, so at high SoC I'd image all of the engine's power (and possibly some of the packs) is going to move the car. In the end, having the accellerator at the same position (muscle memory) will have wildly varying RPM based purely on the current SoC.

If you have one of the XGAUGEs there are some (possibly) better LOD readings you can coax out of OBD. 0143 is said to report "Absolute Load" instead of "Calculated Load". HSD may do some funny math making "Calculated Load" vary from ICE Load. Pid 43 (mode 01) is flagged as supported so it might help. 0145 and 0147 also offer variances of TPS if your using that at all.

Keep us posted. I'm hoping I can get my good numbers to catch up with your bad numbers soon.

11011011

Right Lane Cruiser
08-27-2007, 01:01 PM
Very interesting, Wayne. I did not know the fall off on the highway was so severe... I'd be frustrated, too!! (Not that I can pretend I'd pull numbers like yours!!!)

The fix would be some way to effectively P&G at high speed, but it sounds as though WS is completely out for that use? A low speed monster with no staying power at highway speeds? :(

brick
08-27-2007, 02:09 PM
Wayne - Now you understand why I'm so freaking happy when I break 60 on a 100% highway commute. Welcome to our world. ;) I think the "problem" is that the car sets the bar so high to begin with that you really have to get into the fine details of the system to make significant gains at highway speeds. I don't recall if you are using engine RPM but I consider it to be 100% essential feedback. I felt totally lost this morning since I removed the tach in order to build a better mount. I guess watching LOD is good enough for the most part but the engine doesn't start to "speak up" until you're close to the 3,000RPM mark and well out of the ideal operation zone.

Green bars are nice while they last, although the cost is high to get them. What you experienced is most likely a taste of what a PHEV would be like in charge depletion mode. The system does its best to get rid of extra charge while you have it resulting in temporarily inflated iFCD numbers. That said, I don't think there's anything you can do to "coax" it into the 7th bar without adding a plug since it is entirely dependent on having excess battery power available. You should see the thing run with 8 full bars. Ever see a Prius run in Stealth Mode at 50mph? Wanna?

madman
08-27-2007, 02:30 PM
I know all about ws at 8 bars........sometimes I have to go through the back side of town which at the end gives me about a 1 mile very steep downgrade that lets me get to a full 8 bars. Then when I hit the flats I use stealth up to ws speed and I go almost 3 miles in ws at about 50 to 55mph up to a bridge that I can get all the way over without the ice and regen down the other side to the stop sign back up to 6 bars. The only downside is that after 6 to 7 minutes of no ice running I end up out of s4 and I have to use my ev control to kill the ice between there and the next stop when it will go back into s4.

locutus
08-27-2007, 06:27 PM
You definitely get a boost at 7 and especially 8 bars as the pack is favored much more than usual, at any speed. (After coming to a stop after a long downgrade, getting to 8 bars, and turning onto another highway, I was getting 40+ instantaneous for the whole acceleration, and 80 for a while once I was up to speed.) However, unless you do have a big downgrade, seeing 7+ bars frequently just means you're using the brakes too much. ;) As brick said, the cost is high to get them.

JimboK
08-27-2007, 07:12 PM
Hi, Wayne. I never got to (and rarely do during WS) the Can-View equivalent of "no arrows," which is current draws of about 5A or less. As others have suggested here, SoC is critical. On this test, I hit the highway within about five minutes of leaving work and after my non-block-heater-enhanced warmup. That first five minutes typically pulls the battery down to 50% or below. It really needs to be at about 58% before I can sustain WS at highway speeds, so I drove for 2-3 miles on the highway to push it up to 60 (to allow for some discharge) before I began the test. Of course, as it occurred to me after the fact, I could have force charged it before hitting the highway. "Delayed intelligence" strikes again.

hobbit
08-27-2007, 09:51 PM
That little "fake upshift" feeling as SoC climbs past 4 bars
is a fairly abrupt change from about 40 amps of charge current
to about 10 amps. It's one of the very few abrupt changes the
Prius system ever does, and you're right, it feels almost
exactly like an AT gear-change in your butt.
.
For a visual representation of what you can get out of the
pack in WS at various SoCs, see the chart in my writeup (http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/warpstealth.html) on
it. The battery current figures on it are based on my real
life observations, but I didn't have a good way to represent
quantity on accelerator position. It matches everything y'all
have said in this thread, though.
.
About LOD -- we have observed that different years of Prius II
report calculated load differently in that fairly generous range
of high-torque operation. My '04 sits resolutely at about 50%
under the same pulse conditions as, say, Dan's car would report
as that 75% or so. It's simply what the ECU hands back, it's
not the SG's fault, and you can't trust it to be consistent from
car to car. You can, however, use it as a relative figure to
determine if you're under high torque load or not -- just
remember what it's supposed to be for your own car. An RPM
readout is more useful in the Prius because between the limits
we keep talking about, LOD stays just about the same. And
remember that my "LOD" indicator is my vacuum gauge, which
doesn't allow the computers to lie to me. We did a similar
LOD determination in GrendelKhan's Altima this past weekend,
where it weighed in around 66% for what felt like a nominal
pulse to us.
.
_H*

tarabell
08-27-2007, 10:33 PM
I completely missed the memo on this. ;) Wayne how did you get ahold of this Prius-II, whose is it, is it for review...fun...setting new record...?

xcel
08-28-2007, 04:38 AM
Hi All:

___Well she is teaching me her highway secrets but it is like pulling teeth :( 77.6 when I arrived at work this afternoon at the 189 mile mark. 79.2 as she sits in the drive at 291 miles for a solid 82.25 mpg.

___About that seat/right leg ergonomics. Just stretch out until your right foot is riding high on the pedal and your thigh rests on the seat bottom. That problem is sort of fixed for me. The only problem is you are a long way from the brake pedal in that condition …

___About getting that 7th bar of SoC. I found it twice but only under a specific traffic and terrain condition. I pulled into a D-Regen and held it until the 7th bar appeared. From that point, I was holding a 75 + mpg average at 45 – 55 mph until she dropped back down to 6 again … She sure does run nice at 7 bars ;)

___Dan, I know what you mean about 4 to 5 bars. She will pull from the high 40’s back to the 60’s in nothing flat once the 5th bar appears. The neat thing I really like about the Prius vs. the Honda IMA’s is how fast SoC recovers. I am playing down in the 3 to 4 bar range during my heavy P&G segments. Once I hit the highway, it is not but 1.5 to 2 miles and she is right back up to 6 bars. I am WS the bejesus out of here to pull the high numbers seen tonight/this morning.

___Sean, it is not all that bad but I have expectations and they can be frustratingly hard to meet in her is all. Anything under 40 mph and she owns everybody other then maybe 10 citizens of planet earth in an Insight but after 40, boy do you have to push all the right buttons at just the right time to make her play your tune instead of her own :(

___Tim, SOB and how! I watch the tach but I am so far below what most have mentioned in the past??? Construction is hot and heavy in the Chicago area at night so that helps keep speeds down which is probably the real key to her success this morning. As I was playing around at 60 + mph, she sure doesn’t like to hold 60 + mpg up there. Just the nature of the beast I guess? If you had the lower limits I do, you would probably be in heaven!

___About that tach … I am still seeing my best results down in the 1280 to 1,400 range w/ a WS about every 2 miles added for good measure just like the Prius-I? For my highway alternate’s, I am usually WS’ing down anywhere from 52 – 57 mph, transition at 41 to a std. Glide and holding it until it is time to enter the Interstate again. From 6 bars about 85% of the time, I have some EV to bring her up to around 30 before lighting off the ICE. From there, pour on the coals (no yellow arrows ever from the MGSet to the wheels) to do it all over again. Load is always and I mean always in the 70 – 85% region other then when under WS (~ 50% which means nothing) and when under regen. I just don’t have any play with this ICE for maximizing.

___Jim, I am very interested is seeing that 6-bar WS and feather that pedal to see what changes from the slightest of regen to no arrows back to WS at 55 + mph. Although the mimic is junk, there sure must be some gyrations I do not understand.

___Al, do you see an increase in RPM’s just as you transition form WS to std. Glide? I see it almost every time. A steady state 980 RPM’s under WS and a quick bump up to 1150 or so before she drops back to 0 in a std. Glide? Why would Toyota have done that?

___About Dead Stick Glides. I am still not sure I fully understand the physics because she should not allow 70 + mpg two miles out w/ an initial and final SoC being equal and coolant above 163 using the technique. To see her SoC at 2 (purple) bars after just 2 DSG’s yet the FE numbers are usually in the 90 - 110 range show me a std. SoC for FE tradeoff. Usually the 3rd DSG, she starts forced charging properly and is right back up to 4 bars after a long and steady pulse on number 4 or 5. I am completely fat, dumb and happy with 70 + mpg’s from dead cold - 70 degrees F ambient but why does this work? Upon that 4th or 5th DSG, I am ready to perform the S4 idle check at 163 degrees F +. If I just drive her and eat the warm-up hit, she is lucky to see 45 – 55 mpg’s after 2 miles? This only works from work as I have a special route w/ specific alternates that can leave me completely unmolested for over 2 miles in order to pull off this technique?

___This one is for the group? Because she is booted up, is there any chance of HSD damage during the DSG - technique? It is a dead Prius as far as being able to shift into D at speed but you are in N, booted and gliding smoothly. A slight drag but only ever so slight.

___Finally, she gave me some of her mojo back tonight. I was chasing FE Saturday night/Sunday morning instead of letting it come to me as I did Monday night/Tuesday morning. Off the highway, she allows 100 almost at will. Snapped a pic of all 6 – 5 minute bars pegged tonight at 70 degrees but she does not like 60 degree temps at all!!! On the highway, she can hold above 75 when pulling out all the stops. I do not think the highway numbers would be feasible for most however? During the day in and around Chicago, the Interstates are jammed and the Prius will eat anything alive in that kind of stop and craw pulling 80’s and 90’s without breathing hard. Late at night however, there is little of anything to play in so it all up to her. With nobody on the road, I can pull some of that 50 mph long glide to 35 mph stuff as I exit the Interstate. You cannot do that during the day unless you want your car riddled with bullet holes.

___About various times of day. I am almost positive the day shift traffic patterns through Chicago allowed the Prius-I to do so well last month. The Prius-II caught me on my afternoons and night week(s) and she will not have the opportunity to see the good stuff like the Prius-I did. I did compensate for the traffic-less situation however. I found an off-highway alternate when coming home for the last 12 or so miles. At 01:30 AM, the local 45 mph limited roadways full of road-ragers at 50 + during the day are all but empty so I can pull an 18 – 32 mph P&G nirvana cycle at will to make up for the 70 + mpg highway. All in, about 28 miles of desolate roads for the big numbers and 65 miles of 55 and 65 mph Interstates to barely hold my own. This is the only way I know how to keep her close to the 80 + number. I feel for Prius highway drivers as that is one heck of an amount of work but the city guys with any kind of distance, good god what a weapon!

___Tarabell, just a 2006 Prius-II review vehicle from Cheryl. Breaking records is not in the cards but becoming acquainted with an old friend is very enjoyable to say the least! Toyota corporate has finally come through with any number of Toyota’s once the 08’s arrive in force. I told the rep I can only test stick’ed Yaris’, Corolla’s and Camry’s other then the Prius and TCH of course and only until about the beginning of November before the temps start dropping like a rock. What good would a Corolla w/ Auto’s numbers be in 25 - 51 degree temps? About 49.26 over 613.7 miles actually vs. the 60 + she is good for in the summer :rolleyes:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

xcel
08-28-2007, 11:46 AM
Hi All:

___I have to run but here is what I was seeing during the 7-bar SoC that I caught on the fly.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/7-Bar_Assist.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/609.png
Calibration tank.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/523/6-5_minute_bars_pegged.jpg
She can still do this but it is not as easy as I remembered :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan
08-28-2007, 12:14 PM
___This one is for the group? Because she is booted up, is there any chance of HSD damage during the DSG - technique? It is a dead Prius as far as being able to shift into D at speed but you are in N, booted and gliding smoothly. A slight drag but only ever so slight.OK... how do you DSG a Prius II? Does it have a power button (SKS equipted)? I always thought that the parking claw would come down if you hit power, and if not, that the ECU would simply refuse the request.

___Finally, she gave me some of her mojo back tonight. I was chasing FE Saturday night/Sunday morning instead of letting it come to me as I did Monday night/Tuesday morning. Off the highway, she allows 100 almost at will. Snapped a pic of all 6 5 minute bars pegged tonight at 70 degrees but she does not like 60 degree temps at all!!!I think Jared is running grill blocks all year round. Guess it really depends on how long your on the highway. But if you have a quick stop sign on the route at night, you may be able to install/remove the blocks quickly.

11011011

locutus
08-28-2007, 12:20 PM
I think Jared is running grill blocks all year round. Guess it really depends on how long your on the highway. But if you have a quick stop sign on the route at night, you may be able to install/remove the blocks quickly.


Yes, even on the highway, granted we haven't had much in the way of 90-degree+ days up here. The coolant temperature as reported by the SG-II hasn't ever climbed past 193, usually the peak is 186 or 188.

mparrish
08-28-2007, 12:57 PM
OK... how do you DSG a Prius II? Does it have a power button (SKS equipted)? I always thought that the parking claw would come down if you hit power, and if not, that the ECU would simply refuse the request.
11011011

Also, does an EV button/switch make the DSG unnecessary? I would assume so. Unless there's a way to somehow DSG your way out of Stage 1 and into Stage 2.

Since we are on Prius topics, I've got another one. I've never been able to reconcile the following.

http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/five-stages.txt

Hobbit says:

"When the system temperature reaches 40 degrees C. (104 F.) the computer goes to Stage 2 operation."

My EBH clearly indicates starting temperatures above 104F (120s to be exact), yet I always have to muddle through 20-30 seconds of slow go, downhill, iMPG of 10-20mpg, system-wants-badly-to-assist Stage 1.

Is Stage 1 something that must be experienced no matter what the coolant temperature? That would seem to be the case. I've got my stage 1 burn down to a science, but still would rather just do without it entirely. :)

brick
08-28-2007, 02:19 PM
I would assume that the initial 20-30s of S1 that we get has to do with getting the catalytic convertor up to temp before allowing the engine to do any real work. (The Prius is clean first, FE second, afterall.) Then again my assumptions have a history of being wrong...

hobbit
08-28-2007, 08:19 PM
Wow, that's some impressive alphabet soup, wrapped around even
more impressive MFD shots. To answer one of the questions in
there, yes, as you transition from WS to regular ICE-off glide
you not only get a little RPM bump, you get a few squirts of
gas. No clue why. It's not a hack to lower fuel rail pressure,
since the fuel pump runs at the same time while it's doing
that -- in fact it's probably the opposite, to make sure fuel
pressure is *high* and right there ready to go at the next
light-off. It's only about five cycles of my #1-injector
monitor light, though, so it's not a lot of gas gone. Once in
a very great while I'll see that transition without the squirt.
.
Okay, so what *do* you mean by DSG? I hope you're not turning
the whole car off while sailing down the road. Hopefully you're
talking about "warp neutral" where you get into N at less than
42 mph, even if you wind up going faster than that later.
I use that all the time, it helps.
.
How are you monitoring your WS, especially at low SoCs?
.
_H*

xcel
08-29-2007, 03:56 AM
Hi Dan and Al:

___From dead cold, bring her up to whatever speed you deem necessary, drop her into N and push the power button. As soon as you see the speedo drop out (darn near immediately), you push the start button again to bring everything back online other then the ability to shift into D and your speedo is missing. The only time the parking pawls come into play is when you push the Start button to reboot her the second time. You had better be going **** slow (meaning 0 mph/stopped) or there will be pieces of HSD all over the pavement when you are through. This is not Warp-Neutral and you are not coasting down the road electronically dead, just that you have no ability to coax her into D other then twice when she allowed everything to work just as if I was coming out of a glide? I have no idea as to the exact sequence or why she allowed a shift right back into D with the ICE kicking on immediately afterwards twice so far from a DSG but I have my eyes peeled for it if it happens again? This DSG mode is the one I would like a lot more information about given the ability to almost completely remove the warm-up hit albeit with some very advanced and not recommended for all but the most unmolested of roadways technique. It is not perfect by any means but I touched 80 mpg after 2 miles and 4 bars of SoC again tonight which is a heck of a lot better then 40 mpg while 2 miles out with the same SoC?

___Dan, this Prius does not have an EV button or a block heater and the warm-up hit is almost as merciless as it was with the Prius-I :(

___Anyway, the N immediately after hitting the Start push button acts like an EV switch without the EV switch. Except you only get to use it once :( DSG is an extreme P&G method to hold her FE up while she heats up but I am not entirely sure about the ramifications just yet? Everything is spinning given there is no disconnect. You are booted up but I do not know the details as to what is going on with HSD’s lubrication requirements and MGSet engagement algorithms?

___About grill blocks. It is not about keeping coolant temps up in 60 degree ambient temps, it is about RRC’s. Glides appear to be shortened below 70 degrees F. I know the Ranger in particular sees this same issue when she is driven in the high 50’s or below. The Accord and Corolla see it in the high 40’s. It gets worse as temps fall in all vehicles.

___I ran into something else yesterday afternoon. I drove through the mall ring road on my way to work and I was just shy of 163 degrees F per the SG-II from dead cold. 157 ticked up to 159. I was fully expecting to have to wait out a 163 degree S4 while in that fast idle mode but low and behold, the 5 second idle appeared and she dropped out. I EV’ed away from that light and all appeared as if S4 was reached at 159 instead of 163? She cooled off a touch to 157 by the time I pulled away from the light if that helps? I have not tested the S4 temp limits below what appeared yesterday afternoon but I would be very interested if anyone sees S4 below 159?

___Marc, I believe Dan Kroushl told me that restarting from the button no matter the coolant temp will force cold-restart like behavior. I am not sure exactly but it takes about 20 – 30 seconds even after coolant temp is up before she comes into her own with this one?

___Al, WS can be seen and felt by the SG-II’s tach (980 RPM), the mimic and the regen slowdown and then letting loose when WS appears. I am not running WS’s at low SoC’s as that is a highway technique and she is running at 6 bars most of the time with 5 on rare occasions.

___Good Luck and thanks for the answers so far.

___Wayne

Skwyre7
08-29-2007, 06:55 AM
___I ran into something else yesterday afternoon. I drove through the mall ring road on my way to work and I was just shy of 163 degrees F per the SG-II from dead cold. 157 ticked up to 159. I was fully expecting to have to wait out a 163 degree S4 while in that fast idle mode but low and behold, the 5 second idle appeared and she dropped out. I EV’ed away from that light and all appeared as if S4 was reached at 159 instead of 163? She cooled off a touch to 157 by the time I pulled away from the light if that helps? I have not tested the S4 temp limits below what appeared yesterday afternoon but I would be very interested if anyone sees S4 below 159?

I seem to remember 155F was the magic number for me. The problem is that you have to get it up to about 163F for the temp not to drop below 155F during all of your glides. Once you get up to the 161-163 range, your pulses should be enough to keep the temps up. Below that, and you have to watch it very closely, or you'll drop back into S3. This was a major issue for me last winter (with no EBH installed).

Right Lane Cruiser
08-29-2007, 09:07 AM
This is fascinating stuff, Wayne! When you do the DSG is the engine running at all? If it is, how is this different than just gliding in neutral? If not, are you just ramping the trip mpg really high so that when the engine DOES have to go through its warm up you already have an enormous number to average against?

The lack of more on the highway is still pretty irksome to me -- and I know it must be driving you absolutely nuts!

Dan
08-29-2007, 10:39 AM
I seem to remember 155F was the magic number for me. The problem is that you have to get it up to about 163F for the temp not to drop below 155F during all of your glides. Once you get up to the 161-163 range, your pulses should be enough to keep the temps up. Below that, and you have to watch it very closely, or you'll drop back into S3. This was a major issue for me last winter (with no EBH installed).Yep, the coolant temp is reported in Celcius then translated to Ferenheit by SGII. The original 5-state publication listed the magic temp as 73c (163.4F) but have found that in the 2007, everything is definitely switched over at 70c (158.0F). I've found all the important cutoffs to be round numbers metric wise.

Temps to watch for are:
40c - S2 transition
70c - S4 transition
80c - Coolant pump comes on for 60 sec. (glides fail without EV).
90c - Engine block fan comes on to cool block (draws amps) <unconfirmed, got no current meter>

Speed cut offs are:
55 kph - Minimum speed you can enter an S3 glide in.
65 kph - Highest speed you can enter a 0 RPM glide.

I know I'm kinda OCD about this metric stuff, but it really makes Prius Piloting a lot easier. Plus I always think I'm going a lot faster than I am. I still go 80-90 on the highway like everyone else, only difference is they are in MPH, I'm in KPH ;).

11011011

locutus
08-29-2007, 11:30 AM
The original 5-state publication listed the magic temp as 73c (163.4F) but have found that in the 2007, everything is definitely switched over at 70c (158.0F).

Ditto on my 2005. I'm in degF and the SG skips from 155 to 157 to 159 to 161. At 157 I can stop and force S4, and I will actually be in S4 when I take off again (unless the stop is long and my temp drops to 152 or 154 :().

40c - S2 transition

Marc mentioned it already, but the S2 transition can be messed with by an EBH (where you'll start at 110+, but you still have S1 for 20-30 seconds - I think no matter what there's a minimum time for S1). Also when it's REALLY cold and I'm starting with a coolant temp of like 30F, I think I've gone to S2 before hitting 104F.

65 kph - Highest speed you can enter a 0 RPM glide.

I think you can hit 66kph (=41.01 MPH) before WS kicks in, I've definitely been in "low 41s" with ICE still off. You have to really creep up to it and work your glides into the bottom of a hill though. :)

hobbit
08-29-2007, 12:19 PM
Oh, another thing I was gonna mention... Wayne, I think you're
somewhat right about RPM ranges. High torque RPM range does
drift down a bit at lower speeds, so I see reasonably low
vacuum at, say, 1200 on a takeoff, but that doesn't seem to
hold true when you get up past 35 mph or so. You can probably
see the same effect by comparing RPM and LOD at various road
speeds. Most of my "critical RPM limit" ranting applies to
highway speeds, but since the range is reasonably generous I
tend to just tell people "get north of 1500" which is easy to
remember rather than some weird sliding scale. At the speeds
you're working at, you've probably got plenty of torque going
on just off idle but it's like being in 5th gear.
.
Another parameter that would confirm this is MG1 torque, which
seems to always ride between -20 - -25 Nm under proper load -- as
you'd expect since it's always taking up the rest of what
doesn't go straight to the ring. That's regardless of which
way it's actually turning, of course. Fall below -19 Nm or so
and now you're down into loafing territory. But I don't think
the SG can watch that yet, unless someone's worked out the
CAN string to send. I can watch it on autoenginuity, but that
doesn't tell me anything about the underlying bits.
.
_H*

tarabell
08-29-2007, 02:11 PM
From reading this thread, I'm clearly not smart enough to drive this car :bananapowerslide:

Right Lane Cruiser
08-29-2007, 02:13 PM
Oh, not so, Tara!! Anyone who could go through the possibilities in the HCHII as methodically as you have done should be able to get the hang of the Prius no problem! :)

HCHCIN
08-29-2007, 02:54 PM
I have to agree with Tarabell -- the HCHII is dead simple compared to this Prius stuff:

1) Watch the iFCD.
2) Invoke EV-Glide as much as appropriate.
3) Minimize assist.

Seriously, it's the Hypermiling for Dummies machine. --RN

FireEngineer
08-31-2007, 11:11 AM
Hey Wayne,

Now that I'm back from the block heater install road trip and catching up with things, do you want a block heater installed on Cheryl's Prius to play with. I've only got a couple of dozen sitting at home.

Wayne

xcel
08-31-2007, 01:22 PM
Hi Wayne:

___You bet! I will be on nights all week and Cheryl gets her car back in just a few days. It would be a great gift for her along with the 0W-20 oil change she already received ;) Can I drive it over Saturday morning maybe?

___Prius’ need an EBH in the worst way. To my parents in 63 degree temps over 15 miles and dead cold yielded 90. I left there trying to come up with a way to not use the DSG technique as it is way too advanced for 99.97% of the population and would get people in trouble in one heck of a hurry. About 02:00 AM with 51 - 53 degree temps and again from almost dead cold, she allowed a paltry mid 78.x into the drive. The first (2) 5-minute bars were below 50 in fact and boy did she cool off fast in glides meaning 2 failed ones during the segment at that :angry: I thought the Thermos would bring her back to an easy 105 – 110 after just 3 hours but not even a chance. Low 90 degree temps and I was already 3 or 4 blocks out with the ICE-On! Toyota should consider raising the thermostat temps for warmed up steady state and lower this warm-up hit with a larger thermos or better insulation in the next iteration or there will be a lot of hypermilers ticked off?

___Recommendation for any and all Prius drivers, block everything even in moderately cool temps (no blocks on this Prius unfortunately :() and keep that EBH plugged in whenever you stop for a lengthy period. You just cannot make up for the warm-up hit over a short drive without one!!!

___Something else I have been working with although most Prius drivers know it to be old hat. I used to think and even did run the Prius at 3 to 4 bars during a P&G regiment. At the lower end of 3, your Pulses get hit with MG1 sucking pull to put the pack back near its normal seeking 56% SoC. Pulses down in the 12 – 20 mpg range with no additional accel are commonplace so when you see 3, get on it and bring her back or you will be sorry. I have pulled off the highway and see the same pulse FE (23 – 28 mpg) with a high 3 up to 6 bars. Use no EV at night and you can easily hold 5 – 6 bars forever. This will allow 90 + in just about any mph band up to ~ 38 mph in temps from 55 + to whatever with the lights on.

___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

___The other was a much more positive experience as I was traveling through Vernon Hills/Libertyville on a State Route (Rt. 21) ~ 01:30 AM in the morning on Wednesday. I was P&G’ing between 22 and 38 in 25 – 45 mph zones with a ton of mostly green lights on the priority roadway. While doing so, I picked up the attention of a Vernon Hills police officer. He paced me, pulled back, pulled up, pulled back and was generally just looking me over from the other lane. When he pulled along side the last time, I looked back at him for a good 5 seconds while leaning forward to the wheel and I guess he must have thought there goes another one of those crazy hybrid drivers or something? Did I raise my bottom end of the band or stop the P&G regiment? Of course not :D Having Wisconsin plates this deep into IL. probably made him think I was lost at the same time?

___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 – 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 – 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40’s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 – 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 – 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WS’s to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WS’s. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.

___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-II’s parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ;)) high 60’s/low 70’s highway she may only be capable of?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

diamondlarry
08-31-2007, 02:26 PM
Hi Wayne:

___You bet! I will be on nights all week and Cheryl gets her car back in just a few days. It would be a great gift for her along with the 0W-20 oil change she already received ;) Can I drive it over Saturday morning maybe?

___Prius need an EBH in the worst way. To my parents in 63 degree temps over 15 miles and dead cold yielded 90. I left there trying to come up with a way to not use the DSG technique as it is way too advanced for 99.97% of the population and would get people in trouble in one heck of a hurry. About 02:00 AM with 51 - 53 degree temps and again from almost dead cold, she allowed a paltry mid 78.x into the drive. The first (2) 5-minute bars were below 50 in fact and boy did she cool off fast in glides meaning 2 failed ones during the segment at that :angry: I thought the Thermos would bring her back to an easy 105 110 after just 3 hours but not even a chance. Low 90 degree temps and I was already 3 or 4 blocks out with the ICE-On! Toyota should consider raising the thermostat temps for warmed up steady state and lower this warm-up hit with a larger thermos or better insulation in the next iteration or there will be a lot of hypermilers ticked off?

___Recommendation for any and all Prius drivers, block everything even in moderately cool temps (no blocks on this Prius unfortunately :() and keep that EBH plugged in whenever you stop for a lengthy period. You just cannot make up for the warm-up hit over a short drive without one!!!
___Something else I have been working with although most Prius drivers know it to be old hat. I used to think and even did run the Prius at 3 to 4 bars during a P&G regiment. At the lower end of 3, your Pulses get hit with MG1 sucking pull to put the pack back near its normal seeking 56% SoC. Pulses down in the 12 20 mpg range with no additional accel are commonplace so when you see 3, get on it and bring her back or you will be sorry. I have pulled off the highway and see the same pulse FE (23 28 mpg) with a high 3 up to 6 bars. Use no EV at night and you can easily hold 5 6 bars forever. This will allow 90 + in just about any mph band up to ~ 38 mph in temps from 55 + to whatever with the lights on.

___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

___The other was a much more positive experience as I was traveling through Vernon Hills/Libertyville on a State Route (Rt. 21) ~ 01:30 AM in the morning on Wednesday. I was P&Ging between 22 and 38 in 25 45 mph zones with a ton of mostly green lights on the priority roadway. While doing so, I picked up the attention of a Vernon Hills police officer. He paced me, pulled back, pulled up, pulled back and was generally just looking me over from the other lane. When he pulled along side the last time, I looked back at him for a good 5 seconds while leaning forward to the wheel and I guess he must have thought there goes another one of those crazy hybrid drivers or something? Did I raise my bottom end of the band or stop the P&G regiment? Of course not :D Having Wisconsin plates this deep into IL. probably made him think I was lost at the same time?

___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WSs to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WSs. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.

___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-IIs parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ;)) high 60s/low 70s highway she may only be capable of?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

You could have a good grill block in about 5-10 minutes. Go to Lowe's or Menard's or someplace similar and buy a package of 1/2" pipe insulation. It may work a little easier for stuffing in the slots if you cut the pipe insulation in half. I'm running with all but the bottom two slots blocked and rarely see temps much over 190F even in that large parking lot known as Chicago.:D

There is a thread over on Priuschat about Prius-hate. Some of the oldtimers seem to think that there isn't anything to the Prius being a hate magnet but I'm not so sure. There are too many cases similar to what you're describing to discount the idea. I think it could get worse if what I heard on the radio yesterday comes true. Somebody was saying that if the U.S. were to pull out too early that Iran would jump on the opportunity and we could see gas go to >$9/gallon.:eek: That would hurt even in a Prius.:(

tarabell
08-31-2007, 02:37 PM
I think it could get worse if what I heard on the radio yesterday comes true. Somebody was saying that if the U.S. were to pull out too early that Iran would jump on the opportunity and we could see gas go to >$9/gallon.:eek: That would hurt even in a Prius.:(

It was John Porter.

WASHINGTON -- Gasoline prices could rise to about $9 per gallon if the United States withdraws troops from Iraq prematurely, Rep. Jon Porter said he was told on a trip to Iraq that ended this week.

The Nevada Republican, who returned Tuesday from his fourth trip to Iraq, met with U.S. Army Gen. David Petraeus, U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, Iraqi Deputy President Tariq al-Hashimi and Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh.

"To a person, they said there would be genocide, gas prices in the U.S. would rise to eight or nine dollars a gallon, al-Qaida would continue its expansion, and Iran would take over that portion of the world if we leave," Porter said Wednesday in a phone interview from Las Vegas.

Porter did not elaborate on the assessment that gasoline prices could spike. His spokesman, Matt Leffingwell, said afterward that the scenario "makes sense if Iran moves into Iraq."

Porter "can't speculate directly on what is going to happen with gas prices, but the market prices for oil reflect the stability in that region," Leffingwell said.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/9466252.html

diamondlarry
08-31-2007, 02:46 PM
Thanks tarabell!

Dan
08-31-2007, 08:01 PM
Quick note before you top her off. Beware of the bladder. After all this work to say gas, she can spit a quarter gallon back at you when you top off, without batting an eye. I've only got 22 tanks on mine and she's burped back gas down the quarter panel twice already.

I'm very gentle now at those filling stations.

11011011

JimboK
08-31-2007, 08:31 PM
Hi, Wayne. I've been pretty busy the last couple of days, house-hunting among other things. What else, if anything, do you need me to look at in Can-View? FYI, m'lady and I are traveling this weekend, so I'll have ample opportunity to peek at whatever highway readings you need.

About WSs. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE?

I recently did a test on a highway with modest hills comparing manual RPM control + WS to cruise control. I need to get the final results written up and posted, but the bottom line: CC did just as well as the other. Each technique netted about 60 MPG at an average of 60 MPH. (That was before the Hydroedges, BTW.) For steeper hills, WS probably still helps, but I'm convinced that on the flat or only gentle highway inclines, I might as well use CC. It's certainly a lot less work.

What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears.
I've recently been trying the same thing, though I apply as much pedal (as reported by CV) as I know I need to reach my target RPM. When gliding down to 16 MPH, for example, 34% pedal takes me right to 1600 RPM when I shift back into D. In addition to avoiding that short burst of EV during the transition, I have near-instant attainment of the target RPM.

Dan
08-31-2007, 09:42 PM
Wayne,

OK.. I posted a question on Grille Blocking as well as one on glide entry. The glide entry is a bit of the inverse of the pulse entry that you commented on. Going from DICE-on to NICE-off without assist or regen.

11011011

locutus
09-01-2007, 10:29 AM
___Also, the Prius can be a hate magnet and a savior at various times. I was pulling away from a light under EV that just turned green with a red not a block ahead and got hit with the finger and honk non-sense from a female Beemer driver. She pulled around and sat at that red in front of me for about 2 minutes before it turned green just like I did and we continued. She gave me another finger as we both made the turn onto the main arterial. WTF as there was no where to go and this was at ~ 12:15 PM in the afternoon! I have been through those same lights in everything else and never did I experience that kind of reaction?

Less common here where I'll easily see 5-10 priuses on a trip through town, but I know what you mean. Even if you're not doing anything extreme. Gotta make it to that red light, and no Priuses will get in my way! :rolleyes:


___As most of you know, the Prius-II is somewhat of a pig out on the highway and I cannot figure out why? The 7-bars of SoC with only the barest amount of assist can yield great 70 90 + numbers for as long as you can hold onto that rare event but the std. 6 bars and cruising between 45 and 60 yield ~ the same 55 75 mpg range depending on whatever she wants to allow? I cannot isolate it to the terrain or traffic conditions and I even pulled into a super tight close-in to see if she would pop up. She barely even blipped up let alone that I was expecting to see over 100 almost instantly! The 02 Prius-I when dropped down into the mid to high 40s would pop up into the 75 + range on the Interstate. This Prius-II simply will not allow it for some reason? I have never been in a well setup vehicle that did not spike to 50 75% > then EPA highway at those speeds yet this Prius-II will only allow 10 30% over no matter what I am doing at a somewhat steady state load? It is frustrating as hell that I need to throw a few long WSs to std. Glide and then back up again through some interesting gyrations along on/off ramps and such whereas everything else I have driven just picks it up and holds.

___About WSs. Again, this is not the end-all technique I had hoped for either. For a longer down slope where you can maintain some speed, it works like a charm but on the flats, she bleeds off to much speed and the re-accel back to your high end target appears to end up with almost the same FE? Holding a no arrow glide-WS is a tricky proposition and the resultant FE increase may or may not be justified for the work involved? Any amount of regen is bad under a HS WS so it might be best to just use the std. WS down to your target and be done with that.


NOW you know why I complain about "not knowing what to do on the highway" all the time! ;)


___About N-Glide to EV to Pulse transitions. I use a lot of N-Glides so I can check the SG-IIs parameters back and forth rather then scanning the MFD while holding a throttle position. When you bring her back online with a shift to D, if you are off the accelerator pedal, you go into a very quick regen to glide to EV and then into your pulse as you re-apply the accelerator pedal. What I have been doing is applying about an 1/8 inch of accel pedal before I shift to D and the very slight and quick Regen to Glide transition disappears. You can go straight into Glide without that Regen hit and then begin either EV or immediate pulse from there on up. Again, a very minor amount of energy gain but anything is something while trying to pull her numbers in a P&G segment vs. that disastrous (per my own standards and expectations ;)) high 60s/low 70s highway she may only be capable of?


I've been experimenting with N-Glide a lot lately as well. The "pedal match" is something I've discovered as well, depress to D-Glide position and pop her back into D with no flick of regen or assist. I've used N-Glides to benefit in two specific cases - going down a hill where I know I'll bottom out at >34MPH and I'm still in S2 or S3 - throw into N, get the 3-beeps of EV-forced-cancel, but ICE stays off. Once speed bleeds off below 34 again, either drop to D and restart for a pulse, or engage EV again, pedal match, and switch to D to continue the glide. Similarly if I'm in any stage going down a hill where I know I'll bottom out at >41MPH. No need for the extra drag of ICE-spin (WS) if I don't have to.

Quick note before you top her off. Beware of the bladder. After all this work to say gas, she can spit a quarter gallon back at you when you top off, without batting an eye. I've only got 22 tanks on mine and she's burped back gas down the quarter panel twice already.

I'm very gentle now at those filling stations.

11011011

There's an easy solution... don't top off ;) I'll probably never post a KiloTank because I don't top off, but I've never had any spills this way.

xcel
09-01-2007, 02:14 PM
Hi All:

___I may have sold the Prius-II a little short where her highway numbers are concerned. She just allowed an 80.6 mpg segment per the SG-II coming home this morning with an 80% highway drive. She went from 79.1 to 79.5 per the MFD starting at 812 miles out. Seeing 7-bars per the SoC mimic many not be possible in all but the most remote traffic scenarios but there is a higher SoC level with 6-bars showing that you can reach and it allows the same 70 - 90 mpg type FE at somewhat slower but steady state speeds (46 - 53 mph). When you reach this high 6-bar SoC, you will begin to see the MGSet mimic pop back and forth between assisting and dormant very quickly (up to once every second or two) while in a somewhat DWL steady state cruise. When you see that, you know you are in this “Highway high SoC mode”. You ease back on the pedal and hold decent highway FE for some distance before you have to find that SoC all over again. To hold onto this SoC, do not use WS other then when it is all but mandatory to do so (long downhill’s or coming into a slowdown etc.). I just hold the high 120 - 140 mpg range per the SG-II when coming down a long slope so as to hold onto that special SoC level.

___Also, now that I am on nights, I am going in with some sun light at dusk and coming back with sunlight in the morning. No headlights certainly helps and the traffic patterns are far more Prius friendly. I had one 5 miles stop and crawl (strange for a Saturday morning in Chicago but it is the Holiday weekend ;)) and she popped up with 4 of 6 5-minute bars pegged.

___Why do these kinds of numbers arrive when I have to give up the car in a few days :ccry:

___Her low fuel - last pip blink occurred at 874.7 miles so she will run dry by 950 at the latest :(

___Jim, can you try and find that same high 6 bar level with your CAN-View and let us all know what the hell is going on? I drove in that mode for maybe 25 – 30 miles of 75 and it works but it can disappear just as fast if you decide to use any kind of high end assist for even 5 or so seconds. Gentle as a baby and she showed me some of the good stuff his morning :)

___Dan, I have P&G’ed a Prius from way back but I have to learn her all over again every time :( Using N is new to me so I wanted to make sure everyone knew of a way to forgoe Regen before going to EV or a Pulse after a glide is all. Another … Running a P&G regiment at a high 5 or 6 bars is absolutely nirvana with hard pulses still holding 25 + mpg for the very short period before hitting the glide. Pulled into the lot last night at 5 bars and into the drive with 6 bars this afternoon for a change too. After the Prius Marathon, I remember her last segment started at 3 bars and ended at 5 with the great 90 mile and especially the last 30 mile RT. We had no instrumentation other then the mimic and a SuperMid but I am sure some of this stuff can be sorted out with Jim’s CAN-View?

PS: I top off every time but am very gentle about it. Given Tim’s warnings earlier, I made sure to run through a gallon immediately after doing so on this tank and will do so again this evening on the way to work after she runs dry and I give her the gallon from the can fillup before hitting a another station wherever that may be?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

JimboK
09-01-2007, 08:23 PM
Jim, can you try and find that same high 6 bar level with your CAN-View and let us all know what the hell is going on? I drove in that mode for maybe 25 30 miles of 75 and it works but it can disappear just as fast if you decide to use any kind of high end assist for even 5 or so seconds. Gentle as a baby and she showed me some of the good stuff his morning
Hmm, I'll see what I can do tomorrow on our return trip.

What's your sense about how what you've been doing will translate to hilly terrain, which is what most of the drive entails? The good thing is that none of it is interstate, so I can run those lower speeds you mention. As long as m'lady tolerates it, that is. ;)

I assume you're not running climate control. I know she won't tolerate either AC-off or windows open (blows her hair :(). I suspect that will make a big difference. Agreed?

EDIT: The wheels (in my head, not on the ground) are turning. It seems as though you're saying, "Stay out of the pack on the highway." Is that about it?

In our local travels yesterday and today I've started watching 3 new CV parameters simultaneously: battery power, ICE power, and combined (pack + ICE) power, all indicating power to the wheels expressed in kW. About all I've done so far is start to learn the relationship of the 3 to each other, and that of ICE power to RPM. I'm thinking these might help me here. If I'm reading you right, I should try to:

Keep battery at a negative value (i.e., charging) when possible.
If not, keep it at as low a positive value as possible.
Keep RPM at the low end of what we know the ICE efficiency range to be, but also keep ICE power from dropping too low (DWL??). It looks like 10 ICE kw sustains steady speed at 1600 RPM on the flat at 50-60 MPH.

xcel
09-02-2007, 12:42 PM
Hi Jim:

___I don’t know how the much more hilly terrain will affect this? I know when you have to accel or climb the minor undulations here in IL. even in this “max highway mode”; she will drop into the 50’s and 60’s while very slowly bleeding or maintaining speed. On the back side, 99.9 on the MFD and 130 - 150 per the SG-II while not entering WS. There appears to be two modes to 6 bars of SoC for the highway driver. When you are on the bottom of 6 bars, this max highway mode is gone. When on the top of 6-bars, it is there to be exploited and can be held for a very long time. When you see the quick flashing yellow arrows from the pack and MGSet mimic, back off just a touch and reapply when it disappears. I mean just a touch so that you are not using the pack. That mimic will be bouncing back and forth like a pinball machine at some points so just back off when you see it and keep that pack’s SoC in this high 6 bar range.

___There appears to be some severe speed limitations in this mode. She will only hold 75 + up to ~ 53 mph so this will not work for those running on 70 mph Interstates. Even on our 65 mph limited ones, the truck speeds are 55 and I can hold 53 without too much issue with the occasional blast up to 65 for long flats or down hills to clear out the proctologists.

___I am now thinking WS should only be used when you will be dropping below 41 to transition into a std. Glide, otherwise save the pack for the super highway mode. It seems to be working well but I do not have the time to tweak it. Since you and Tim are the Prius-II highway specialist amongst the CleanMPG membership, I hope you two can find and use it to your advantage in the near future … Or until the colder temps reach VA. and SC. only to kill both your own great tanks in the very near future? Just get her up to highway speed for a few miles and look for the tell-tale Yellow arrows from the MGSet and Pack as they appear and disappear rapidly. Once you see it, you know the pack is at the proper SoC for this max highway mode to be worked with?

___After filling the gas can w/ 1.507 gallons, filling up from the can after fuel starve and adding an additional 11.172 gallons at the station over 952.9 miles, I was getting behind schedule for my work commute and drove it up to 45 – 65 for 50 miles. 73.x into the lot after 50 miles. This mornings drive home yielded 81.8 mpg per the SG-II (SG-II’s FE was dead on this time around with no offsets in Fuel or distance installed?) with the MFD sitting at 78.5. Day time driving really is a lot different then night time highway as you cannot hold the max highway mode for nearly as long at night.

___Prius-I and II’s into the stop and crawls. For the type moving between 10 and 40, std. P&G with varying speed ranges but the same pulse rates. Hopefully you will be at 6-bars as you enter one given you are on the highway but do not waste it! Open up the buffer, minimize use of EV, and anytime you get down in the 15 – 20 mph range with the buffer you created ahead, punch the accel pedal just enough to get that ICE up and running and take her up to a speed that will allow a glide into the back of the traffic ahead but at the bottom end of a speed range in your lane. In the real slow stop and crawl stuff. Those that simply crawl along at 2 – 10 mph, you have 6 bars to play with and unfortunately, you will have to burn some of it. Still, open up a buffer but crawl with everybody else and pray the traffic opens up before you get to 3 bars. It takes some gumption to open up a buffer in the far right lane in a dense stop and crawl of either type but just take the BS from the ticked off drivers because they are not going anywhere and the FE will be in the low 100’s along with it. The 2 – 10 mph stuff doesn’t really need a buffer as long as there are no openings that you can see around a long curve or corner ahead but the moving stop and crawls will need that buffer to work in or you are screwed.

___Just like the Prius-I, do not succumb to the siren song of EV’ing on the pack unless there is a darn good reason to do so! It is there to absorb and give a little but do not ride it like most of the untrained do! It is a FE killer! Until you convert to a PHEV that is :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan
09-02-2007, 05:06 PM
Holy smokes, I saw some of that 6 bar sweet spot.

Dial in IGN as one of your gauges and watch what happens when hold IGN of 14. Here's the decoder:


IGN: 5 = Fuel Cut or ICE-off
IGN: 10 = Idle
IGN: 13 = Very hard to hold, happens at about 1100 rpm on the HW
IGN: 14 = SWEET SPOT MPG = 1.5 x MPH and on a flat you can hold it for miles unlike WS. I get slightly better numbers with WS P&G, but man this is the closest I've seen! Something else interesting is that IGN 14 is also what my city driving Pulses seem to hit consistently when at 6 bars. It's a whole lot easier to hold an IGN number than an RPM number, and the RPMS seem to self regulate to the IGN number.
IGN: 15 = Close second to IGN 14, and allows for longer distances.
IGN: 16 = Hardly ever saw it at 6 bars, seemed to always be on the way to 17 or 15
IGN: 17 = FE falls off here, and I recommend avoiding 16 and 17. Possible loafing
IGN: 18 = WS Pulse rate. This is a perfect pulse rate if your gonna WS P&G. Pulse at IGN 18, Glide at IGN 5.
IGN: 19+ = Very fuel thirsty, I recommend avoiding these unless your in a "gotta floor it" moment.


Wayne, does this line up with the HW numbers you were seeing?

For my 60+ mile highway trip, I saw 67.0 MPG. This is WAY above what I usually hit. I did half WS P&G (IGN 18 & IGN 5) and half Sweet Spot P&G (IGN 18 & IGN 14). They were real close. In the limited time I had in an Insight, IGN 14 felt a lot like lean burn in the insight. Not nearly as thrifty as LB, but the same feel to it.

11011011

xcel
09-02-2007, 07:01 PM
Hi Dan:

___So there is a gauge we can use to see the max highway mode! I will swap out Load for IGN and look for the tell tale signs tonight on the way to work. It does indeed feel very much like lean-burn in the HCH-I (great analogy!) although it is a bit trickier to hold is all. One of the other items I see in this mode is the tach between 1,180 and 1,280 w/ an occasional up-tick to 1344 Rev’s which seems ungodly low for 47 - 53 mph?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

diamondlarry
09-02-2007, 10:25 PM
Wayne, your discovery of "super highway mode" explains a few things I've noticed but couldn't quite explain. I would get stretches where I would see 70-75 mpg then, all of a sudden, the same conditions would only be good for high 50's to low 60's. Since I've only made less than a half dozen highway trips, it would have taken me forever to have figured this out. I had the ~48-53 mph thing figured out as a sweet-spot for speed but couldn't figure out the rest of it. On behalf of many PriusII drivers I say: THANK YOU! Now, about that highway clinic time after I finish out this 1,100+ mile tank...:D

Dan, I think I'll be I'll be using the IGN feature of the SG2 for my next highway trip which will most likely be in October for the trip to Oak Creek. Thanks for the tip!

locutus
09-02-2007, 11:58 PM
Dan - nice find! I don't drive highway that much but when I do, now I have something else to watch. :)

Dan
09-03-2007, 03:45 AM
Wayne, your discovery of "super highway mode" explains a few things I've noticed but couldn't quite explain.

And the new Super Highway Mode (SHM) technique was born :D. Wayne and I are certainly believers. There may be some refinement, but this may be the elusive 70 MPG highway technique that Prius pilots have been looking for.

Try it out and let us know if you can confirm a high MPG highway segment with it.

11011011

hobbit
09-03-2007, 06:38 AM
Can you watch RPM at the same time you're doing this, and
see if there's a correspondence? This is just ignition
timing you're talking about, correct?
.
_H*

lightfoot
09-03-2007, 06:55 AM
I have to agree with Tarabell -- the HCHII is dead simple compared to this Prius stuff:

1) Watch the iFCD.
2) Invoke EV-Glide as much as appropriate.
3) Minimize assist.

Seriously, it's the Hypermiling for Dummies machine. --RN

This is a fabulous thread (makes me want to get my hands on a Prius), but I can't help thinking that pretty soon a copilot will be needed!

diamondlarry
09-03-2007, 07:35 AM
And the new Super Highway Mode (SHM) technique was born :D. Wayne and I are certainly believers. There may be some refinement, but this may be the elusive 70 MPG highway technique that Prius pilots have been looking for.

Try it out and let us know if you can confirm a high MPG highway segment with it.

11011011

I posted this in the Daily Grind when I should have put it here: I was able to get 71.* on the way to Hf and 72.* on the way home so I know that there is something to SHM . I can only imagine how much better my mileage would have been if I had known about the technique and how to manage it. This technique seems as though it's starting to blur the line between the Prius on the highway vs the HCHII on the highway.

JimboK
09-03-2007, 10:52 AM
Wow, I wish I had seen the last few posts here before making the return trip yesterday. Makes me want to hit the highway again for a few miles just to check it out.

There appears to be two modes to 6 bars of SoC for the highway driver .... When you see the quick flashing yellow arrows from the pack and MGSet mimic, back off just a touch and reapply when it disappears. I mean just a touch so that you are not using the pack.

I wasn't watching the mimic. Remember, the CV uses the MFD, so it's either/or. So on yesterday's trip I had the following set on CV's graphic screen: RPM (as always), battery kW, ICE kW, and iMPG, plus the always-present SoC.

62% seems pretty much to be the optimal SoC, which I'm guessing is the "high 6 bars" mode you're referring to; from earlier observations, 65% is when the 7th bar kicks in. Assuming reasonably steady RPM, from points above 62 it progressively discharges, and from points below progressively charges, until it settles in at 62. The further from that point the faster it moves of course, but that last percent or two may take several miles. Once at 62, then CV shows battery kW constantly fluctuating from negative to positive -- a CV equivalent of the quickly flashing yellow arrows.

But I didn't exploit it as you've described, not having seen this exact description of the technique. Instead, my goal basically was DWL at as low an RPM as possible and still maintain speed, and avoiding WS. I was running at considerably lower RPM than any previous long highway run, but still maintaining speed on the flat. Sometimes it was as low as 1200, more often in the 1300-1400 range. ICE kW could get as low as 7.

As I said, this was a hilly route (http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1283496), coming out of the foothills of VA, (I didn't consider a previous segment of yesterday's driving because it was largely a climb into and then a descent out of the mountains), though it gradually levels out somewhat toward the end. It's mostly 4 lanes, non-interstate, not too heavily traveled, posted limits mostly 55-65 MPH, with an occasional drop to 45 through small communities. Except for one short 2-lane segment (nothing but hills, lots of traffic -- an MPG-buster!), I felt safe letting it drop to 45 MPH on the uphills. But that often required RPM well above 2000 to maintain, and at one point, 3000. I deliberately avoided WS on the downhills completely except, as you suggest, as I approached transition to a sub-40 MPH glide. Instead I used regenerative coasting as needed to keep speed safe and (mostly ;)) legal.

Weather was pleasant, and m'lady was cooperative, so I ran without AC and with my window fully open and the right rear half open, enough for a good cabin breeze that she could still tolerate.

Total MPG for the trip was 60, the best I've done on the highway since getting the Hydroedges. It's important to note a net 700' elevation drop during the trip. Between that and avoiding climate control (which I've always used on previous highway trips), it's impossible to attribute any portion of the MPG improvement to driving technique. But I'm confident my technique didn't worsen MPG. Again, I'm anxious to get her back on the highway -- a flatter segment this time -- and try your technique.

CV also reports ignition timing, so I'll look for Dan's IGN sweet spot too.

Bottom line: It seems as though a lot of what we've come to believe about highway technique -- keep RPM above 1500 and liberal use of WS -- may have been turned upside down. I'm interested in hearing Hobbit's take on all this.

Dan
09-03-2007, 11:11 AM
Can you watch RPM at the same time you're doing this, and
see if there's a correspondence? This is just ignition
timing you're talking about, correct?
.
_H*
Yes, it's just ignition timing. RPMs seem to be 1200-1300, but I'll have to watch it. Wierd thing is that IGN drifts to 17 while in that range, and if you hit that number you fall off mode in a very big way. So 13, 14 are good, and after that you don't get good again till you get up to IGN of 18 (I think). More on my return trip

11011011

Right Lane Cruiser
09-03-2007, 11:49 AM
Wow! Stellar work, guys! Wayne comes through again with something brand new and finally brings the Prius highway numbers up to par with the rest of its abilities. I love it! :D

xcel
09-03-2007, 01:04 PM
Hi All:

___Her last short tank before Cheryl picked her up a few minutes ago. 355.6 miles on 4.375 gallons = 81.28 mpg. This was ~ 75% highway. Using IGN14 is a lot easier then fighting the iFCD and watching the Assist bars flash in and out quickly. Camp IGN14 in a low to MS highway once a high level 6 bar SoC is reached and she will allow 70 + in good conditions with a well setup Prius-II. The Prius-I must have had it also because I fought that thing tooth and nail for it out on the highway and she was showing me similar brilliance although I had no idea it was a timing display away :(

___Al, you can view IGN advance and RPM’s on the SG-II at the same time which is exactly what I did for her final RT. Cheryl is driving it home now and I setup the IGN advance to the upper left as priority with RPM to the right of it. You have to see it for yourself. The ICE is darn near idling between 1180 and 1280 when riding this “mode”. There is not a lot of power to be had of course (unless you want to give up the FE for a quick accel or a climb while not DWL to maintain traffic flow) but camp it and she shows you some darn nice highway numbers. I just do not think they are available up in the low 60 + mph range is all? Not really sure as I just don’t drive there that often?

___Jim, you have got to watch advance as it is very much like WS or Glide. There is a dead band within all 3 and you can hold it for a very long time. What I am interested is how the % SoC and current flows when you ride this somewhat elusive but newly tamed little beast ;)

___Dan, I am seeing some 13’s and of course camping at 14 for the above 70 + numbers on average. On the downhill sections, IGN15 appears and SG-II is showing 100 – 140 with the MFD pegged at 99.9.

___The next question might be can the Prius-II take out an HCH-II on the highway? With the ease which IGN14 can be held, a SG-II equipped Prius driver that knows how to push tanks can beat a good HCH-II driver but place drivers of similar mindset and quality behind the wheel of each and I believe the HCH-II still has the advantage. In the stop and crawls or under 40 stuff, the Prius will eat an HCH-II alive but above 50 and the HCH-II is probably still more efficient? It is just a little bit closer now then it was in the recent past is all.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

JimboK
09-03-2007, 01:53 PM
OK, got ignition timing plugged into the CV display. First observation is that it reports an ICE-off value of 19 rather than five. No significant driving observations yet, but hopefully it tracks linearly from there with how SG reports it, i.e., sweet spot = 28. If not, I should be able to duplicate Dan's discovery process easily enough and find the CV equivalent.

Dan
09-03-2007, 03:13 PM
OK, got ignition timing plugged into the CV display. First observation is that it reports an ICE-off value of 19 rather than five. No significant driving observations yet, but hopefully it tracks linearly from there with how SG reports it, i.e., sweet spot = 28. If not, I should be able to duplicate Dan's discovery process easily enough and find the CV equivalent.Interesting... This may be a SGII quirk, but it's definitely there. I may need to ask Ron what query IGN is tied to. Might not be "Ignition Timing" in CV. But whatever it is, if you have SGII, watch IGN.

11011011

tekn0wledg
09-05-2007, 07:34 AM
I looked into the RPMs on my Sgii when in the Shm state and here is what I saw. Keep in mind, this is rough as it's only been two trips on the highway for about 6mi each way [with the sun in my eyes]

IGN - RPM
18 - 1600+
17 - 1500+
16 - 1400+
15 - 1300+
14 - 1200+
13 - 1100+

It seems to indicate RPM = ((IGN - 2) * 1000)

These numbers seem fairly consistent when maintaining normal driving conditions. Hills will change the RPM a bit, but for the most part this was fairly accurate on my trip. Not sure what others have found though.

Also, I will say that the IGN of 14 and 15 seem to give about MPH * 1.25-1.5 as was suggested originally. I have to say I haven't see 75-90mpg on the highway too often, but I rode in that state for about 3mi today while within 5mph of the speed limit.

I also used the IGN as a guide for acceleration now, instead of RPM. This seems to provide the most accurate means of finding the ideal acceleration point for P&G sessions. I try to keep it inbetween 16 and 18, but to get up to speed quicker 18 is the best bet.

I will do some more research in the next few days. I'm slated to meet with JimboK tonight, so I'll be on the highway a bit longer than a I normally am, and thus can pay more attention to the numbers.



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