Neutral in a FEH [Archive] - CleanMPG Forums

GPS_MAN1

08-01-2007, 02:53 PM

I have 100% proof that both the traction motor and generator motor continue to spin at the same speed as wheel speed when in Neutral.
I now have a scanner that will show Motor RPM.

Traction Motor Speed = 128 RPM per MPH
Generator Speed = -156 RPM per MPH ( EV mode )

Gear ratio between the two: 1:1.218750

Measurements done in EV mode, so there is no ICE speed.
Done when coasting in Neutral, down a 1%-2% slope.

1 MPH TM 128 RPM GM -156 RPM ( reverse direction )
5 MPH TM 640 RPM GM -780 RPM
10 MPH TM 1280 RPM GM -1560 RPM
15 MPH TM 1920 RPM GM -2340 RPM
30 MPH TM 3840 RPM GM -4680 RPM
39 MPH TM 4992 RPM GM -6084 RPM

45 MPH TM 5750 RPM GM ~-2400 RPM ICE ON
43 MPH TM 5504 RPM GM -6708 RPM measured during a FAS in Neutral

Yes folks, it is true what I have been saying for 2 years now.
There is not a physical disconnect when you shift to neutral.
In Drive and in Neutral, my RPM numbers are always the same.
Both motors always have a RPM relative to wheel speed.
Coasting in Neutral, both motors always rotate based on wheel speed.
Even after a FAS, both motors rotate based on wheel speed!

Anytime the CAN bus is on, the electronics have the wheels attached to the eCVT. When the key is totally off, the CAN bus is off, and I cannot measure RPM's.
But I am 100% positive the motors spin when you are coasting down a hill in Neutral, even if the car is not "started" after a Forced Auto Stop ( no green car icon ).

Before today, any posts about a neutral disconnect were THEORIES.
Having opposing theories is good.
But there is no actual disconnect when you shift to "Neutral".
If anyone lives in the North Denver area and would like to see this in person, I will be happy to show this to you in either your car or mine.
-John

P.S. GaryG found this Ford slide show that states the wheels are always connected, even in "Neutral" on August 23, 2007.
Mystery solved?
http://www.nextenergy.org/cm/attach/55B4B799-0133-47E3-8487-4C86AF736F6E/Phil%20Rairigh%20-%20Ford%20-%20Advanced%20Powertrains%20Panel.pdf

brick

08-01-2007, 02:57 PM

That's how a Prius works, so it makes enough sense. What kind of scanner are you using? PC based?

GPS_MAN1

08-02-2007, 09:15 PM

I just used a ScanGaugeI with a few PID codes to "hack" deep into the CAN data.
It's kind of like grooming a golf course with a walk behind mower, but hey, it works!

Here's a couple of post-trip processed graphs, extrapolated to 104 MPH.
These RPM's DO NOT change at all when you shift into Neutral.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/share/files/1/0/8/5/GENRPM.jpg

This speed graph was verified to be correct over the road via ScanGauge data.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/share/files/1/0/8/5/TMRPM.jpg

brick

08-03-2007, 07:42 AM

That's a neat idea, using the SGI to dig into to the CAN stream. In fact that's something that some of us (me, anyway) would be interested in learning about. So you basically tell it which part of the stream to watch and record the data by hand? Is the output remotely intelligible or did you have to go back and process it before it made sense? What went into figuring out how to do all this?

GPS_MAN1

08-03-2007, 01:15 PM

All the "raw" data from the ScanGauge is in Hexadecimal Format.

I get numbers for RPM like FC2D and 041A.

You do this under "commands".
The "command" for FORD is 22496A "send".
This returns just a freeze frame at the current speed.
So yes, I had to do it at a bunch of speeds and record the data.
The over the road data very closely match's Ford's published data.

I don't know what it is for a Toyota Prius.
It will probably be different.

If anyone wants more details, please send me a private message and I will be happy to share!
:flag:

brick

08-03-2007, 01:46 PM

Why not just...share? I guarantee there are people here who would appreciate it.

GaryG

08-03-2007, 03:22 PM

Why not just...share? I guarantee there are people here who would appreciate it.

Hi Brick

DesertDog brought this information out first to me on Hybridcars.com and ask me to talk to Ron Delong while I was at Hybridfest. Ron told me that he was having some problems with CAN, but was working on them and a new program would be out soon. We seen some of the new programming with those 10 SG2 units Ron let the Prius drivers used who expected to exceed 100mpg during the challenge.

I don't fully understand the command data, but DesertDog should share what GPSman learned from our post on GH and hopefully share it here for our members. DesertDog (Carl), are you here?

GaryG

GaryG

08-03-2007, 05:01 PM

Here is some of the information DesertDog posted on GH a while back:

"If you have a SC, go to MORE>MORE>MODE or MORE>MODE>READ to find your protocol

If you have CANxx, just send 224923 for SoC but doesn't work for FEH (usually)
If you have PWM, send 616AF1224923
If you VPW or ISO, send 686AF1224923

Could be it's the same PID as Ford, but I doubt it.....

Transmission temp might be the same, its PID is 1674"

GaryG

GaryG

08-06-2007, 03:19 PM

The Prius neutral system is not the same as the FEH/MMH. A disconnect means had to be provided for many reasons. First, the weight of the FEH/MMH make it critical that the eCVT be disconnected from the wheels during braking. The inertia of the two electric motors and gearing within the eCVT require this disconnecting clutch at the counter shaft within the eCVT. If a disconnect was not provided, a heavy braking event could easily damage these turning motors with there powertain torque inertia.

This disconnecting clutch also allows the neutral position to disengage the wheels as explained in the FEH workshop manual and other safety concerns during an accident or motor freeze.

GaryG

hobbit

08-07-2007, 09:42 AM

I just caught up on this thread, and it looks like we're *still*
not sure. But Gary, why wouldn't a Prius have the same perceived
risk from heavy torque blips as what you say about the FEH?
.
Recall that the Prius has something called a "damper clutch"
which simply a torque absorber built into the engine's flywheel,
that has a little rotational "springiness" back and forth to
absorb minor variations, and a plate that will actually slip
a little bit under extreme loads to protect the engine but
probably never under normal use. The fact that it's called a
"clutch" has confused people many a time, but for normal operation
it can be considered a solid shaft from the crank. It is a
totally passive device; no sort of control means goes to it.
.
Maybe we can't have a FEH teardown party for a few years yet,
but can someone with a shop manual / wiring diagram figure out
if there are any control leads around the tranny that imply an
actual controllable disconnect facility? Or is that all too
buried in that "non-serviceable" one-piece block of electronics
on top? What's the electrical topology between the FEH's hybrid
ECU and its inverter, i.e. where do they split things up, and
how well is the interface between them documented?
.
BTW, I chatted with the Scangauge guy a little at HF too, and
I think what he's doing with the "nonstandard" PIDs is rather
brilliant. Instead of trying to build all that knowledge into
an internal database and then trying to maintain that for every
kind of car, he's created a generic "build-yer-own-query" interface
that you plunk numbers, offsets, masks, and scale factors into.
Thus all the "knowledge" about custom PIDs [and even which ECU
to ask for them] can be embodied in an online resource where people
look up their own cars and type in the right things. If he
continues this model the right way, it will turn into a forum
site where SG owners can *contribute* back to the database [subject
to verification] and build up a huge repository of per-vehicle
knowledge. By creating the generic interface, Ron has shifted
the development onus partially to the user community which is
clearly more powerful than one single guy.
.
Next step clearly is a standard file format for defining your
own PIDs and uploading/downloading, both to the net for other
people to look at and to/from the SG itself so you can get all
the stuff for, say, a Prius, edit it to what you want, and then
block-load it to your own SG. If Ron does that in a way that's
easy to work with [flat ascii rather than some proprietary
binary format, for example] then I can see a huge community
springing up around this.
.
_H*

GaryG

08-07-2007, 11:47 AM

Hi Hobbit

The Prius could very well have a disconnecting clutch, but Prius owners continue to post on other sites that there is no such clutch. From what I now understand, a clutch is what Ford uses, but the Ford patent does discuss other alternatives and prior art were invented and used in other hybrid systems.

The One-Way Clutch between the engine and carrier gear is way more advanced in controlling Noise, Vibration and Harshness in controlling engine speed than I ever though. The small generator (MG1) is used with the OWC to make all this happen according to one patent. Of course, all these clutches are control electronically through the Transmission Control Module (TCM) and outside senors through the PCM. The Ford repair manuals just state that the wheels are disengaged from the output shaft in neutral. The patents I've now discovered give the details of why and how this is done. The problem in locating some of these Ford patents is, Ford did not always label the title to address Hybrid vehicles. It's only when I discovered to look at the hybrid patents that referred that invention to other patents. The patent on the disconnect clutches was very hard to find and took a lot of reading. GPS_man's claim that the motors were turning in neutral and therefore there was no disconnect as I've claimed is explained in the patent. Read This:

"In many cases, it may be desirable to reconnect the driveline and powertrain 74 with the wheels immediately following a braking/powertrain disconnect sequence. For example, when a vehicle passes over a series of ice patches, the vehicle's ABS system may be successively activated for brief periods, resulting, each time in the powertrain being disconnected from the wheels. If however, during the period of disconnection, the driveline speed falls substantially below that of the wheels, the reconnection process may produce substantial NVH, and in some cases, possibly damage the driveline components. Therefore, in accordance with the present invention, the driveline speed is synchronized with that of the wheels before they are reconnected. This is achieved by sensing both the driveline and wheel speeds using corresponding sensors 110, 112, and determining the speed difference using the controller 76. Based on the determined speed difference, the controller transmits a control signal to any of the motor 54, generator 36 or the engine 10 to increase driveline speed until it is within a preselected range of the wheel speed, at which time the controller 76 deactuates the clutch 72 thereby effecting re-engagement."

As with the Prius, these hybrids are something else! Also, Ron told me the same things you heard from him and we are going to have a means to look at much more with the SG11 soon I hope.

GaryG

hobbit

08-07-2007, 12:46 PM

No, there's no disconnecting clutch in the Prius, and I can say
that quite confidently from the experience of now having jumped
inside several transmissions. Only the NVH-absorbing damper,
which doesn't disconnect. [See the training slides (http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/training/prius02.html)]
.
Toyota has the same method of "hiding" their hybrid patents --
often referred to as "power output apparatus and method of
controlling the same" which leaves it very open.
.
Could you please point to some specific patent numbers so we can
go read some of this for ourselves? Also remember that not every
feature described in a patent necessarily makes it into a
production car -- for example, the section in Toyota's 6131680
that describes "lock-up" of MG1 -- never seen it happen.
.
_H*

GaryG

08-07-2007, 01:59 PM

brick

08-07-2007, 03:09 PM

GaryG

08-07-2007, 04:17 PM

I agree with Hobbit that we need more info before this can be put to rest. If the MGs are spinning in neutral then it's tough to make a case that the wheels are really, physically disconnected from the drivetrain. The hybrid system adds nuance to the concept of "disconnected", anyway. If you shut down the electrical pathways then you are coasting pretty much free, and the wheels are in a sense "disconnected" since the PSD needs to be controlled on 2 sides to put power to the pavement.

Anybody have a transaxle out of a junked FEH?

In other Ford patents, including this one, Ford expressed the need for this disconnect. At first, GreenFEH a member of this forum, found a patent called Wheel-End and Center Axle Disconnect that talked about those important needs for a eCVT, as well as giving the ability to tow all wheels down. The owners manual states you can tow an FEH behind an RV all wheels down up to 75mph. The patent I quoted above references this patent which is:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6793034.html?highlight=679303,67930,6793034&stemming=on

Reading these two Ford patents puts Ford in a liability situation if a disconnect was not part of the design of the as built FEH/MMH. The first patent was not clear where and how the disconnect was provided, but I always suspected it was located between the last gear set and the output shaft. The workshop manual states the wheels are disengaged from the output shaft in neutral. The manual does not say each motor or the ICE is disengaged.

With this newly found patent, it addresses the need to prevent damage to the eCVT that before now, no one has addressed. In addition, the patent describes the disconnect and the possible locations. The main area I thought the disconnect was located, is the focus point of this patent.

The FEH eCVT would most likely survive a crash and still be worth selling as a unit. However, with a flooded FEH, the eCVT would most likely be of no value except for a core value. Until someone takes one apart, we will not know for sure unless FORD or Aisin explain more about the HD-10 eCVT used in the FEH/MMH.

One last note, I have been doing key-off FAS for 7 months now with no problems. I shift to "N", turn off the key, and restart while moving in neutral. Above 40mph and below 40mpg, I've had no problems so far.

GaryG

GPS_MAN1

08-07-2007, 08:05 PM

More Data about the Generator:

Desired Torque Commanded / raw # / Measured Torque / raw # / notes

FFFE / -1 / 0000 / 0 / In Park with ICE on deadband
FF69 / -152 / FF62 / -159 / Charging battery with ICE on in Park
0020 / 32 / 001E / 30 / Braking from 20 MPH with ICE on in Drive
0081 / 129 / 0081 / 129 / During Engine Brake / Engine Run Up in Low
FFFE / -1 / FFFE / -1 / Braking from 20 MPH with ICE on in Neutral
0000 / 0 / 0000 / 0 / Coast ( glide ) at 20 MPH in Neutral ICE on
0000 / 0 / 0000 / 0 / Coast ( glide ) at 20 MPH in Neutral EV
0000 / 0 / 0000 / 0 / Braking at 20 MPH in Drive EV

While coasting at 20 MPH in neutral the Generator RPM is -3120
While coasting at 20 MPH in neutral the Generator Torque desired is 0
While coasting at 20 MPH in neutral the Generator Torque produced is 0
While coasting at 20 MPH in neutral the HV battery is putting out 1.6A

The baseline (load) for electronics in the car is +/- 500 watts.
( computers, fans, water pumps, dashboard, etc, )
The above is steady, and repeatable over and over with the same result.

So can somebody tell me how the generator can spin at -3120 RPM and produce zero torque, nor consume any torque, nor take any amperage out of the HV battery, and be "disconnected" at the same time???

GaryG

08-07-2007, 08:50 PM

brick

08-07-2007, 09:57 PM

hobbit

08-07-2007, 10:21 PM

Try this: fire up the car, and get into a state where engine
shutdown happens. Chock the back wheels and jack up one side
of the front. Put the vehicle in neutral. Go to the lifted
wheel and spin it back and forth and try to feel the inertia of
any driveline parts it's connected to. With one wheel stationary
and one moving you'll be spinning the "punkin" gear twice as
fast as you would when driving, and if the final drive were
truly disconnected inside you probably wouldn't feel much
inertia from heavy motor rotors. Or magnetic cogging, for that
matter. In the Prius, you can feel all of that when doing the
same test, and it's very clear that things are still linked.
.
_H*

GaryG

08-07-2007, 10:22 PM

He isn't banned. And for the sake of knowledge I would tremendously appreciative if this thread didn't get personal. If it does, it will be a waste. How about we find a rock-solid way to get to the bottom of the issue and be done with it?

Science can be frustrating but this is the process. We need to know the reasons behind observations. Right now we have two good theories, both with sound basis, but both in need of more support. (The scientific kind, not the popular kind.)

Sorry Brick, not only was he banned, all of his post were deleted. It was about this same subject matter in fact. You can't deal with this guy without personal attacks. Wayne knows what I mean. This guy has attacked Wayne on GH also. Talk to Delta Flyer about that. This guy does not tell the truth.

GaryG

GPS_MAN1

08-08-2007, 01:54 AM

For those who care, my best tank is 53.0 MPG for 696 miles. Not bad for an SUV.

I'm posting real data from the car via the ScanGauge.

I follow scientific methods, and I design tests that isolate one variable at a time, and compare it to a control. I also repeat the tests over many days and many trips to check for reliability and consistency.

-John
gpsman1@yahoo.com

Right Lane Cruiser

08-08-2007, 08:25 AM

Um, is no one willing to do the test that Hobbit suggested? I'm really interested to see what the results of that would be.

Please? I'd do it myself but I don't own one...

brick

08-08-2007, 08:55 AM

I think that's the best suggestion yet.

GPS_MAN1

08-12-2007, 08:34 PM

Hobbit, brilliant idea!

Not only could I feel mechanical resistance in "Neutral" but with the engine off, I could also hear lots of mechanical noise as moving parts were meshing together.

I found something even MORE interesting!

With one wheel jacked off the ground, and ICE running, in "Neutral" the wheel will spin on its own in the forward direction. Not much, but there is a tiny amount of forward torque on the wheels in Neutral. There was also a ton of resistance to me spinning the wheel backwards in Neutral, when the ICE was running.
There was the same amount of resistance in both directions when the ICE was not running.

I have video ( .mov ) of the tire spinning forward, on its own, with the car in Neutral.
Can I upload a 10MB movie file to this site?

Try this: fire up the car, and get into a state where engine
shutdown happens. Chock the back wheels and jack up one side
of the front. Put the vehicle in neutral. Go to the lifted
wheel and spin it back and forth and try to feel the inertia of
any driveline parts it's connected to. With one wheel stationary
and one moving you'll be spinning the "punkin" gear twice as
fast as you would when driving, and if the final drive were
truly disconnected inside you probably wouldn't feel much
inertia from heavy motor rotors. Or magnetic cogging, for that
matter. In the Prius, you can feel all of that when doing the
same test, and it's very clear that things are still linked.
.
_H*

GPS_MAN1

08-24-2007, 03:59 AM

GaryG

08-25-2007, 10:09 PM

GaryG found this Ford slide show on 08-23-2007 and posted it to me on another site.
He just became a grandfather the same day, so may have other things on his mind than this site, so I'm going to re-post it here.

Of note is slide 37.

It states that the wheels are indeed, connected to the transmission in "neutral" and only the torque is set to zero. You can view the entire show here:
http://www.nextenergy.org/cm/attach/55B4B799-0133-47E3-8487-4C86AF736F6E/Phil%20Rairigh%20-%20Ford%20-%20Advanced%20Powertrains%20Panel.pdf

-John

That is correct, I posted this information to let everyone know what I've found in my research. Everything seems to be correct in that slide show as well as another great find I made by the FEH engineers. For some reason that document has been hard to link anymore.

At any rate, finding information about the FEH has been limited. Interpretation of the manual, patents and articles have been all over the boards. The bottom line is how to get the best FE out of the FEH with easy methods anyone can use.

In the video I made at the MPG Challenge, neutral coasting was a key element in getting over 60mpg. I know, I was there and did it. For some reason, its been a problem for GPS_man1 to admit "N" coasting was better than deadbanding. I think he agrees now, but I'm not sure. Anyway, Ford patents have stated that disconnects were required for protection of the motors and drivetrain. I thought those patents supported why neutral coasting was better. This is the continued question.

At any rate, we now have people like Carl helping with SG11 information and Mark Smith a master Tech working on the workings of the FEH/MMH. We still have me, and I now have a new theory on the manual, the patents and the operation of the FEH.

The manual states in Neutral, the output shaft is disengaged from the wheels. Also, there is no way the engine spins during neutral tow, everyone has to conclude that. There also has been a question as to real engine braking which has so far been unanswered. This leads me back to where the output shaft is disengaged from the drive wheels per the manual. It must mean the output shaft of the engine rather than the output shaft of the eCVT.

It occurs to me that the function of OWC is to limit the engine to being only a power/torque input to the planetary gear set, and with only one direction of rotation. Consequently, the OWC prevents power or torque from being transmitted from the planetary gear set back to the engine. Starting mode must be the direct connection between the generator and engine, with no power or torque from the ring gear and wheels during that process.

Any thoughts anyone?

GaryG

GPS_MAN1

08-26-2007, 05:33 AM

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "deadbanding" then.

Lets agree on some definitions.

"Neutral" is just a case when zero power flows into or out of both electrical motors.
Agreed?

I can make zero power flow through both motors in any gear position.
I have multiple meters to prove this, not just the Navi screen. ( which is not the best ).

Therefore, I can have a "neutral-like" condition in any gear other than Park.

"Deadbanding" as I understood it, meant zero energy flow arrows on the Navi.
I can get zero arrows in any gear other than Park.

However, more sophisticated testing has shown me that less than 500 watts ( 0.5 kw ) in either direction will not show up as arrows on the Navi screen.

Therefore, I conclude that coasting "deadband" is always within 500 watts of coasting "neutral" and sometimes is the same as coasting in "neutral". 500 watts is about 1% of the maximum drag that the motors can produce, and 3% of what they typically produce in the form of Regen.
Therefore, neutral coasting is at best, a 3% advantage, but most of the time, closer to 0% advantage. Now, if shifting the gear selector is very easy for you, and using your gas pedal with precision is difficult for you, then of course using neutral will show a much greater positive result for you. I was just talking from an engineering standpoint, there is very little, if any, difference. I've spent a lot of time and effort explaining this. Either you "get it" or you don't. If someone is willing to send me $300 ( or a video camera ) I'll make a video of me getting over 60 MPG without shifting the gear select to Neutral. My best round trip is 68.3 MPG for 20.2 miles. ( I don't own a video camera, just a cheapo camera phone )

In short, stopping all regen is the key to great coasting and better MPG.
Neutral gear position is one way to do this, but not the only way.
Can we all agree on this?

BobB

11-08-2007, 07:54 PM

Some of this may be helpful. I received from a Ford Transmission CAD relative.
Copied from 2009 Escape, Mariner, Escape Hybrid, Mariner Hybrid, Development Copy
I posted the full PDF file in the Files section.
SECTION 307-01B Automatic Transaxle/Transmission — Electronically Controlled Continuously
Variable Transmission (eCVT)

Transaxle Components Drive
The electronically controlled, continuously variable
transmission (eCVT) has the following internal components:
• 65 kW traction motor
• 28 kW generator
• One-way clutch
• Planetary gearset

Damaged or worn low one-way clutch
Damaged or worn intermediate one-way clutch (2 one way clutches?)

Park
With the range selector in PARK:
• the parking pawl locks the output shaft to the
case.
• the engine may be started.
• the ignition key can be removed.
• the ignition switch can be cycled from OFF START or RUN.

Reverse
With the range selector in REVERSE:
• the vehicle may be operated in a rearward direction.
• reversing lamps are illuminated.
• if the vehicle is not started, there is no reverse gear engagement.

Neutral
With the range selector in NEUTRAL:
• no power flows through the transmission.
• the output shaft is disengaged from the drive

Drive
The range selector DRIVE position provides:
• low speed driving.
• acceleration.
• cruise conditions.
• deceleration.
• maximum fuel economy during normal operation.
If the vehicle is not started, there is no forward gear engagement.

Low
The range selector LOW position provides:
• engine braking.
• improved traction on slippery roads.
If the vehicle is not started, there is no forward gear engagement.

Motor Electronics Cooling System
The vehicle uses a pump driven cooling system
(referred to as the motor electronics cooling system)
to transfer heat generated by the CVT and the
hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) battery pack to the
atmosphere. The system uses a coolant-to-air
radiator design.

hobbit

11-09-2007, 12:42 AM

I wouldn't call that a CAD so much as a shop manual excerpt,
but it possibly advances the debate by implying inaccurate
use on Ford's part of the word "disengage".
.
"if the vehicle is not started, there is no reverse gear
engagement."
translation: reverse isn't enabled unless you're in full
ON power state.
.
Same syntax for D and L.
.
Same sense of the word for Neutral.
.
_H*

BobB

11-09-2007, 07:33 PM

Hobbit:
That's sort of funny!
I have a nephew who works at Ford in the Transmission Group as a designer using CAD.
The rest I won't comment on, as I just put it there for information.

GaryG

11-09-2007, 09:49 PM

Hobbit:
That's sort of funny!
I have a nephew who works at Ford in the Transmission Group as a designer using CAD.
The rest I won't comment on, as I just put it there for information.

Bob/Hobbit, the same language is used in the '05 workshop manuals and I've seen Ford Hybrid patents that use those terms as well as a disconnect devise. However, this is the first time I've seen intermediate one-way clutch language. The intermediate shaft is where the patents have suggested where an addition disconnect is located.

Good find Bob, is there any more information you can get regarding this intermediate one- way clutch?

GaryG

hobbit

11-10-2007, 09:14 AM

As much as Toyota tries to treat their transaxle as a single
field-replaceable unit as far as dealer-level repair goes, part
of the Prius manual *does* include full overhaul instructions
for the PSD. Find the equivalent for the FEH/MMH and then you'll
finally have your answer.
.
_H*

BobB

11-10-2007, 09:30 AM

GaryG:
My nephew that works in the transmission group told me that if they get a eCVT back that they are not allowed to take it apart. It is tagged and sent back to the manufacturer. I think the manufacturer is Aisin Seiki.
Aisin Seiki To Boost Supply Of Motor Systems For Ford Hybrids
February 19, 2007

Quote from another site:
Aisin AW’s own HD-10 2-motor FWD hybrid system.
Aisin Seiki Co., an affiliate of Toyota Motor Corp., plans to increase its supply of core motor systems for hybrid vehicles to Ford Motor Co., according to The Nikkei.

The Ford Escape Hybrid and Mercury Mariner Hybrid are equipped with Ford’s first-generation transaxle, which Ford developed jointly with Aisin AW, a subsidiary of Aisin Seiki. In 2008, the Ford Fusion Hybrid and Mercury Milan Hybrid will come equipped with Ford’s second-generation transaxle.
BobB

GaryG

11-10-2007, 10:27 AM

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