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The late Mr. Honda was an engineer first, but he was also all about fuel efficiency, and therefore green. I wonder what he would think about this.

Ford is rumored to be selling Volvo, who builds the hybrid propulsion for the FEH. Toyota and Ford already settled that there is no infringement on the HSD system.

Honda should buy Volvo and get the rights to the HSD system, and a automaker that is eager to pursue green technology, such as the flex-fuel Volvos. Imagine an HSD system with a Honda engine....

It would be a coup

I wish Honda made fun cars like the did in the 80's and early 90's. :-(
Today they're too much like Toyotas.

Hey Chuck;

Great point.

However, I don't think Honda would ever buy Volvo or any other company for that matter. They are too proud of their legacy... and also too much like Toyota in that its subsidiaries must become one with "the family". Newly assimilated companies (parts, manufacturing, etc) are often expected to embrace the philosophical and operational principles without contest. Volvo has a valuable heritage and I believe that scares and challenges the culture within companies like Toyota and Honda greatly.

Honda already has a solid and active Flex fuel presence in South America. And I don't see them getting into heavy trucking business anytime soon.

On the other hand, I could see them discretely picking up the pieces of a dead company, which I think Volvo is not. I also see cross licensing and strategic technology sharing (Urea free Clean Diesel tech, anyone)... ;)

Cheers;


MSantos

Doesn't the Honda hybrid technology have certain advantages over the Prius technology (underfortunately gas mileage isn't one of them) of being simpler and easier to place elsewhere?

Development of newer cars would therefore take less time. They could also put it in smaller more economical cars, which I understand Toyota can't do (there can't be a Toyota Yaris without a total redesign of the engine).

This all might not be true but I don't mind someone (gently) telling me otherwise. :-)
I'm here to learn mostly.


--des

Hi all--

What amazes me most about Honda's hybrid engines is the increases in efficiency gained from such a relatively simple system. Compared to Toyota's HSD, Honda's IMA is practically Luddite. But as we've seen, a HCH-II gets within 2mpg of the Prius for the average driver.

That said, I think Honda could benefit enormously from a system that was a little closer to the HSD in one respect -- low-speed (sub 15 mph) all-EV operation. If that could somehow be managed using upgraded IMA hardware and technology, it could easily erase the Civic's deficit to the Prius. --RN

The IMA system has it's limitation, although it works well on my Insight.

Honda is arch rivals with Toyota and legally could not use the HSD except maybe this way.

One dream car I have would be if Honda bought Volvo, made Civics and Fits with HSD and coming up with a way to put an overdrive to improve highway milage...eventually adding clean diesel.

That said, I think Honda could benefit enormously from a system that was a little closer to the HSD in one respect -- low-speed (sub 15 mph) all-EV operation. If that could somehow be managed using upgraded IMA hardware and technology, it could easily erase the Civic's deficit to the Prius. --RN

Ahhh.... an active clutch between the crankshaft and a beefier Motor/Stator heh? Now, we would not want to spoil the show would we? ;)

MSantos

Make no mistake. Honda has airplanes and robots on its brain. Its starting to get real GMish...

"I wish Honda made fun cars"...

what about the S2000 and the insight? the s2k looks like a lot of fun, and if you really wanted to, you could flog the insight around quite a bit, albeit at the expense of ultimate mpgs.

Ahhh.... an active clutch between the crankshaft and a beefier Motor/Stator heh? Now, we would not want to spoil the show would we? ;)

MSantos

MSantos--

Do you know something top secret the rest of us don't? --RN

MSantos--

Do you know something top secret the rest of us don't? --RN

Maybe he does, but I've been asking for those features in IMA for some time. ;)

Hi MSantos:

___I know we have discussed this before but I wondered the same thing when I read that. Spill the beans or you will see both your HCH-II’s go up on E-Bay real soon :D

___I have been waiting for a clutched IMA solution for at least 4 years and can only hope Honda with all its engineering might has the wherewithal to follow through with something like that. A 20 - 30 HP motor powering the wheels with nothing in the way other then the tranny itself vs. the ICE, its valvetrain and tranny could do slower acceleration EV launches and even higher speed highway if done properly? The starter motor solution would have to be beefed up to bring her up like the single large IMA based MGSet does currently though :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I assume you mean moving the IMA to BETWEEN the trans and the ICE (rather than on the other end of the ICE) and adding some sort of computer-actuated clutch between the IMA and the ICE?

It is nice to sit and dream of all these great ifs!, but sometimes simpler is better and much more reliable.. Not to mention the cost. H:Banane57:

I'm going to hold on to my HCHII for a bit. Whatever happens, I'm expecting something great to come out in 5-10 years when I'm in the market for something new. Hopefully it's from Honda.

Owlmaster's got it right on. This HCHII is the first car I've owned that I don't really worry about resale value, because I figure I'll drive it until it breaks or something better comes out from Honda. This is my second Civic, and I've owned cars from all three regions (US, Germany, Japan), and I doubt I'll ever buy anything but Honda again. --RN

Doesn't the Honda hybrid technology have certain advantages over the Prius technology (underfortunately gas mileage isn't one of them) of being simpler and easier to place elsewhere?The Insight, first car with IMA, is still the mileage king after 7 years. It is a simple system. Elegantly simple, one could say.

One advantage over HSD is the ability to have a manual transmission. Some folks still like them. ;) The disadvantage is certainly the fact that the electric motor and ICE must turn as one.

I assume you mean moving the IMA to BETWEEN the trans and the ICE (rather than on the other end of the ICE) and adding some sort of computer-actuated clutch between the IMA and the ICE?The IMA motor is already between the ICE and the trans. The motor fills the space that would be occupied by a 4th cylinder.

Prius drivers are jealous of the MT Insight's superior mileage. Insight owners are jealous of the Prius's electric-only capability.

Can you imagine what an aluminum Prius with a lean burn engine could do? :Banane54:

The IMA motor is already between the ICE and the trans. The motor fills the space that would be occupied by a 4th cylinder.

Thanks very much, I didn't know that.

Soooo is there any reason why a second clutch could not be inserted between the IMA and the ICE so the ICE could be shut down and the car be powered by the IMA alone? Perhaps as simple as a sprag clutch or possibly a computer-controlled clutch would be better?

I'm also wondering if the Insight's power-assisted steering is really needed. Rack and pinion? Electric steering is a drag on the battery and might also add weight versus rack and pinion?

Lightfoot--

It's my understanding that even with a way to de-couple the IMA motor from the ICE, the IMA motor is far too underpowered to move the car on its own. In the case of the HCH-II, you can use the electric assist to help maintain moderate vehicle speeds while in EV-Glide mode, but there's not enough guts in the electric motor to accelerate, nor juice in the pack to assist gliding for terribly long.

Now, your clutch scheme with a more powerful IMA motor and deeper pack -- that's the idea MSantos was hinting at earlier. Since the HCH-II lags the Prius by just 2mpg in average use, I believe such an arrangement -- allowing low-speed EV -- could help make up that difference. But then, I'm not an engineer... --RN

Lightfoot--

It's my understanding that even with a way to de-couple the IMA motor from the ICE, the IMA motor is far too underpowered to move the car on its own. In the case of the HCH-II, you can use the electric assist to help maintain moderate vehicle speeds while in EV-Glide mode, but there's not enough guts in the electric motor to accelerate, nor juice in the pack to assist gliding for terribly long.

Now, your clutch scheme with a more powerful IMA motor and deeper pack -- that's the idea MSantos was hinting at earlier. Since the HCH-II lags the Prius by just 2mpg in average use, I believe such an arrangement -- allowing low-speed EV -- could help make up that difference. But then, I'm not an engineer... --RN

If they brought that out it would be very VERY competitive I'd think! That would also allow complete free-wheeling during glides...

I'm with Wayne, though -- I'm hungry for a PHEV40. ;)

I would think that system would be very effective, and not outrageously more complex than the current IMA sytem. Driven through an MT (which, to our dismay, is not currently offered on Honda hybrids) it should be more efficient in steady-state situations than HSD, given the motor/generator losses that must exist in that system.

On the other hand, once you beef up the IMA motor and battery, and add the clutch and reprogram the software, maybe it ends up costing as much to build as HSD. I don't know.

It's my understanding that even with a way to de-couple the IMA motor from the ICE, the IMA motor is far too underpowered to move the car on its own.I'm not sure that is correct. I've maintained 40mph with no throttle and MIMA providing 50 to 75 amps to the IMA motor (max is 100 amps), no problem. And that's dragging the ICE along with it, of course. The limitation is battery capacity and thermal management. And then there's Mike Dabrowski's Etek powered 5th wheel on the Batmobile (http://www.99mpg.com/Projectcars/mikesinsight/).