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The article was misleading when it stated "Honda Hybrid Sales Down". Went on to say Insight sales are up 15%, Civic hybrid sales are strong, but Accord hybrid sales are disappointing.

Is this a good case against power hybrids such as the Lexus LS 600h?

MSNBC Story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12303373/from/RS.1/)

They really need to re-do the AH drivetrain and base it on a I-4 instead of a V-6. It could be cheaper, plenty powerful, and deliver some outstanding fuel economy. They NEED to get in the game against the Camry, and the current version just isn't going to cut it. I went into the GH database earlier this afternoon to look for the best reported AH tank and it was 43.1mpg. The average is 28mpg.

To me it is painfully obvious why the car doesn't sell. They are trying to sell to performance-minded drivers for a price that is significantly higher than the already powerful V6 model. Only the few who have some extra money to burn on cool technology will go for it. Hybrid technology is too expensive to use that way! IMHO the best thing to do is offer an I-4 based drivetrain at the same or slightly lower price point as the non-assisted V6. IMA has the advantage of being a bit simpler than HSD and I think they could even do it below the price of the Camry.

Now, let's talk potential. Consider for a minute that a hypermiling noob like me can hit 40mpg reliably on the highway with a 6th gen Accord. My car has a higher 0.33 CD and no assist. I figure that an I-4 IMA Accord ought to be able to beat that by at least 5mpg, maybe 10mpg through a combination of aerodynamics and hybrid goodies. That would compete!

I'm not surprised at all. The 1st time I drove one and was really "Excited", Pumped-Up and ready to, {BUY}. What does the Honda dealer want to do? Full MSRP and Low Ball my trade. So then another year goes by and now all of a sudden the Honda dealers are crying that they can't Sell them.

{Tough} I don't feel sorry for their Greed.

killin' off the HAH- wow- I knew it would be killed off once the Camry got a foothold, but even before- that's impressive.

So I've got... a collectors item. Whodathunkit? Maybe the Smithsonian will put it next to the Edsel or a Packard.

But its a collectors item that got me 49.4mpg on the way home today (draft assisted, no FASing). Soo close to catching G&B's record from last summer.

I got nothin' else to say about what Honda should have done for this vehicle that I haven't said previously.

well at least the speed and luxury is nice ;P heck i'd be happy with it then my current car lol...

I think part of the problem is the makeover of the 2006 hybrid Civic. Back in the 70's the Accord was this size...

Wow....where to start ? LOL

Ok...in order...

Delta - When you get into the Lexus mindset, the category of person who's got coin for an LS460 / 500 likely has the money and can be convinced of the desire for a LS600h - they put a few features in the hybrid that can't be found in the non-hybrid model. To be able to say they have the ne plus ultra of Lexuses - that pulls cachet with a certain type of person. They'll sell them. Now, the GS hybrid that's coming out next year - same thing, but it's going to be marketed even more to the performance enthusiast. I don't know how RX hybrid sales are going, but if they're anything like the Highlander version, they're going to be slow. Word has gotten out about the mileage not being what it's cracked up to be in the RX / HiHy as well - in the case of the RX, the car is, what - $13K more than the $39-40K of the regular RX ? People start backing away at that price. But the LS is shopped by a different buyer - even more well heeled than the RX buyer. They're ostentatious buyers to start with - now you're giving them something even more ostentatious. A poor-man's Maybach, if you will ?

Brick - The AH can't be done in an inline 4 setup because the engine bay / suspension won't allow it - there's not enough room for K24 / IMA / 5AT. That's why the J30 was selected, in a nutshell. Because it was the only (AT-equipped) powertrain combo that would fit in the car. You're going to have to wait for the FMC in '08 to see if they rework IMA for the new Accord, which will be a frame-up clean sheet redesign (the current 7th-gen actually uses the frame from the 6th-gen (your car :) As far as potential ? I'll bet a K24-based IMA Accord will better whatever the HSD-equipped Camry does. However, 'Yota will have a 2yr headstart in the midsize hybrid family sedan category by then (discounting the '05 Accord, of course). That's going to be a hard hill to climb, but if Honda's still #1 in fleet FE then, they'll have a chance, based on prior reputation, and (yet another) HSD car not 'living up to expectations', from a FE standpoint (for the 'average' driver).

Tigerhonaker - I found your statement just a bit disingenuous (depending on when you shopped the Accord Hybrid) -

a) How much did you pay for your new '06 ? If it wasn't MSRP, it was very close to it, and the dealer made a nice profit with your accessories - even if he discounted from MSRP on the car, he *still* made money ;)
Whenever *any* new car comes out, the 'early adopters' get hit the hardest - it's the price they willingly pay for being '1st on the block'. Tack on the built-in limited availability of hybrids (we both waited a long time for our Civics, didn't we ?), and the situation is exacerbated.

b) Do you think that Toyota dealers are going to be dealing the HSD Camry below MSRP when it arrives next month ? And as far as what a 'Yota dealer will give on trade, comparing it to your Honda experience - just ask Psyshack about Toyota dealers. IMO, they're SO arrogant right now, because TMC is on such a roll. Not that this is anything 'recent' with their dealers, either.

gonavy - At this point, I'd say you were #1 w/ regard to AH FE - everyone above your car on the other site stopped posting tanks a long time ago. You've kept up and surpassed everyone, in my eyes. Well done.

The bad news for you - if HMC does discontinue the V6 Accord Hybrid - you're going to lose in two ways, unless you're planning on keeping the car (and I don't think you are, given what you've stated about the upcoming Ford Fusion). The first is resale. The second is parts availability / markup on such a limited production car. But if you keep it, you'll be 'ok'. You could do worse than a late-model Accord...LOL, and you know firsthand how nice the car is. Were it not for my fears about the future, and the realization that I might not be able to trade for a long time, I would have paid off the Accord - same $ either way over the Civic.

Philmcneal - As a person who actually traded one of these for a Civic hybrid, I can say - yes, the power and luxury were nice. But the way that I drove the car, I never really got to enjoy that power. Rather, I felt like I was playing a self-defeating game, because the car had the FE feedback tools, but was handicapped with the VCM logic that it had. Compare that to the Civic, which is singularly built for FE, and as I was thinking today as I was driving to work..."I actually enjoy the Civic better...because I'm more aligned with the purpose of the car, and can exploit it better" When I bought the AH, it was for the refinement of the V6 (having had it in my '01 Accord), not really the 'power' - and the FE was bonus. When I compared it to 'near-luxury' cars, I truly thought it was the best value for money. But the car required 'work' to get the FE that I did out of it, and once I got into that mindset - I couldn't just 'enjoy' the car anymore. Everyone who rode in the car loved it - but it's not as important for me to impress my passengers as it once was. Besides, the ones who 'knew me when' are just as impressed by hearing that I can get in the mid-60's for mileage (so far!) with the Civic. I used the car for commuting - and from an efficiency standpoint, the Civic hybrid is better in that regard.

And so we come full circle back to...Delta....
I do think the price had something to do with it. Your typical Accord buyer is looking for 'value'. And a $32,000 Accord...well, those people are thinking..."$32K ? I could go get a 'entry-level luxury' car for that" For the 'luxury' buyer - they don't care about gas - many of those cars require premium fuel, anyway. For the value-conscious buyer, looking at the FE - they say "not that much better than the 4-cylinder, FE-wise...is the car worth $6200 over the 4-cylinder (which I can bargain with for an even better price over sticker) ? Nah..." And so the car lingered.

The biggest complaint I heard from people shopping the car wasn't FE - it was price. Once you cross $30K for an Accord - it makes people think twice, given the car's historical position in the marketplace.

Enough typing for now...LOL

Green&Blue;

You might not agree with this statement, but since you were not at the dealership or maybe I should say I did not see you there. I think I will stick with my original Comment as it was a very exact statement. Infact I was really being nice about what really took place. The Honda Dealer was actually wanting over MSRP, plus $299.99 for a DOC Fee. Then the Brand New Honda that I just purchased from them they were going to put (Clean) in it for the trade in Value. I also I guess for your benefit should have mentioned that I had been a Customer of this Dealer for over 10-Yrs. Not to mention all the customers that I had personally taken to this dealer to do business with them. If I had the time or thought it was really important I would try to add up all the Hondas that I had purchased from this dealer, but I really see No-Point in it.

Perhaps I should also have mentioned that I work for a Dealership that is right next door to this Honda Dealer. So generally speaking, dealers treat other employees of dealerships very nice as they should.
It's called (Professional Courtesy) from one dealer to another dealer.

Green&Blue, Sorry I did not take the time to explain more fully my background with this Honda Dealer and also the fact that I have worked for a Dealer for the past 10-Yrs. myself. I will try to be much more informative in my Threads/Post from here on out. Just really did not think it was necessary to go this deep into my original comments and why I made them. I think for the most part that members would know that I would not make erroneous comments that were based on "False-Facts/Information."

If you feel like this is not complete enough information for you regarding this, please Post again and I'll try to find the paper work regarding the HAH Proposal from the Honda Dealer.

BTW, I tried doing business with them on my 2006 HCH II and this is how that same Honda Dealer Handled that transaction. See Link Below:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/quot-why-quot-i-originally-cancelled-the-2006-hch-must-read-update-on-saturday-22nd.4197.html?page=1&highlight=cancelled+2006+HCH

I think that when I said and used the (Word-Greed) when it pretained to that Honda Dealer it was most {Accurate.}

Tiger! tiger! burning bright... (w/ apologies to Blake) ;)

I think you misunderstood my point. I did not mean to infer that the dealer did not ask for MSRP (because then, I'd be accusing you of a falsehood, and that was not my point). Rather, my point was -
- Why would you NOT expect the dealer to ask for MSRP, especially in the very early days of the car's availability ?
- Did you not pay MSRP (or very close to it) for the Civic Hybrid ?

BTW - I'm well aware of your background, as I've read sundry posts from you over the last few months. No need to be even 'more informative' than you have already been, to this point... ;) I do see where you say you've steered a good amount of business their way, and that should probably count for something 'in the real world' - so you do have a good point there.

As for dealers treating one another's employees with 'professional courtesy'....I'd posit that the dealer should give everyone the same courtesy, not just insiders who work in the same field. But I'm probably being naive / altruistic here.

Finally, I took no exception with the word 'greed'. People are in business to make a fair profit on goods / services they sell. The retail automotive sales field sets itself up for this when they use multiple pricing scenarios; thus, some people get a great deal, but for every one of those, another customer has to get the shaft to make the average profit margin number for the dealership. There aren't too many retail sectors where the pricing fluctuates so wildly, so they're kind of unique in this area.

Tiger! tiger! burning bright... (w/ apologies to Blake) ;)

I think you misunderstood my point. I did not mean to infer that the dealer did not ask for MSRP (because then, I'd be accusing you of a falsehood, and that was not my point). Rather, my point was -
- Why would you NOT expect the dealer to ask for MSRP, especially in the very early days of the car's availability ?
- Did you not pay MSRP (or very close to it) for the Civic Hybrid ?

BTW - I'm well aware of your background, as I've read sundry posts from you over the last few months. No need to be even 'more informative' than you have already been, to this point... ;) I do see where you say you've steered a good amount of business their way, and that should probably count for something 'in the real world' - so you do have a good point there.

As for dealers treating one another's employees with 'professional courtesy'....I'd posit that the dealer should give everyone the same courtesy, not just insiders who work in the same field. But I'm probably being naive / altruistic here.

Finally, I took no exception with the word 'greed'. People are in business to make a fair profit on goods / services they sell. The retail automotive sales field sets itself up for this when they use multiple pricing scenarios; thus, some people get a great deal, but for every one of those, another customer has to get the shaft to make the average profit margin number for the dealership. There aren't too many retail sectors where the pricing fluctuates so wildly, so they're kind of unique in this area.
Green&Blue; Here are the Figures on the HCH II from Gary Force Honda. It was not a "Few-Dollars-Difference".

#47 10-22-2005, 02:17 PM
tigerhonaker
G.H. Contributor

Real Name: Terry
Location: The Music City, Tennessee
Hybrids: I took it Home On 3/4/2006
Posts: 1,014

Re: "Why" I Cancelled The 2006 (HCH) Must-Read (Update On Saturday 22nd)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerhonaker
Hi Everyone: Situation Has Been (HANDLED) On Sat. 22nd Oct.

(READ-BELOW)

This is a "Very-Sad" post to me but here goes.

HCH W/Nav. & Accessories + Shipping..................................... $26,186.00
Total Labor To Install Accessories.................................... ......... 2,018.00
.................................................. ..............................Total $28,204.00

The Total For All The Accessories was $2,286.00
So to summarize this; my dealer is wanting to charge me full MSRP for vehicle and Full List for all the Accessories and then charge me ($2018.00) Labor to install the Accessories.

If this is not bad enough, then I am suppose to take a ($4,500.00) Hit on my 2005 Civic purchased from same dealer with 7,000 miles on it and not a scratch on it period. Approx. 7-Months old.

Next I am also expected to pay a (Processing-Fee) of ($298.00) to do the paper work.

So here is the bottom line to all of this, I owe "$7,000.00" Dollars on a 6-Month old new Civic and if I took them up on this 06 HCH I will end up owing "21,647.88" or (3-Times) what my balance is on my 2005 Civic.

I just cannot see it, so I called Dealer and said your "Free" to sell incoming 06 HCH to next person on your list of I just got to have it and don't care about price (Person).

I have purchased 7-8 Hondas from this dealer and their new philosophy is, full list on everything concerning the 06 HCH know matter who it is. I'm just glad that I went ahead today and pressed for the bottom line price and did not wait until the vehicle showed up to find out the new "Terms" if you will.

So, sad as it is for me to type this post I think it will be a guide to others to not take the pricing of this new 06 HCH for granted or a verbal/handshake deal, you better have it in writing and use this post as an example as to how dealers treat their old customers when it comes right down to (Profit). Friendship is out the door and Profit is in. As they say, "Buyer-Beware"

Terry



As I Promised Everyone:

I met with the Dealer in "Bowling-Green-Ky." (Gary Force Honda) this morning 22nd of Oct. at 9:00 AM and finalized the purchase of a 2006 HCH. They were as one would hope all dealers would be and that is
(Courteous, Ethical & Professional) from the first phone call this week to our actual meeting this Sat. morning.

Let's talk numbers: Gary Force Honda was ($2,000.00) less than the Honda Dealer (Darrell Waltrip Honda) in Franklin, TN.; my next door neighbor to my dealership. Gary Force Honda also went ahead and took my Honda Civic and paid off the remaining balance, plus are you ready for this? When I got there they had a (Loaner-Car-Ready) for me to drive Full of Gas and Cleaned up until my 2006 HCH arrives in Jan. or Feb. 2006. The reason for the 1st of the Year delivery is the "TAX-Credit" and so they said we will arrange to deliver your 2006 HCH after Jan. 1st so you can take full advantage of the Tax Credit, just keep the loaner and since we are paying your 2005 Civic off come Monday Oct. 24th you can save the monthly pmts. you would be sending in to Honda Credit and put that against your 2006 HCH when you take delivery of it after Jan. 1st. So that should give you an additional savings of ($450.00). Now if I am reading the Tax Credit List correctly it says the Honda Civic with Auto is ($2,100.00) for 2006 starting in Jan.

So in summary, I would have to say without any doubt at all that if you
(Do-Not) like the deal you're getting from your local dealer even if it is a pain to go elsewhere, take my advise and what you are reading here, don't look back. "Shop-Other-Dealers".

I think that I failed to mention in the above remarks that I did all this deal with (Gary Force Honda) over the (Phone And Fax Machine) and had never seen the Dealership or met any of their Employees or Management. The reason for the meeting today (Sat. 22nd Oct.) was to drop off my Civic and pick up the loaner car until my 06 HCH arrives 1st of the Year. Before this morning I had never laid eyes on anyone there or its employees. I ran a Map (Rand Mcnally) to find the dealership.

So, I hope this little story and my personal experience in this endeavor will (Help) others that are getting "Jerked-Around" or will be and use this as a guide to getting a better Deal and to be treated the way we all should spending our hard earned (Monies).

In case you're wondering, Gary Force Honda is ordering the "Exact" same 06 HCH Honda with the "Exact" same Options. The difference in pricing is just the difference in one Dealer (Darrell Waltrip Honda) being over "Greedy" and the other Dealer (Gary Force Honda) willing to make a
"Fair And Reasonable Profit."


Terry

.........................$2,000.00 Gary Force Honda
...........................2,100.00 Tax Credit
..............................450.00 Savings In Pmts.
.........................._____________
.TOTAL Savings: $4,550.00 WOW

........................................"Free-Loaner-Car" (For 4 Months)

................................."Worth-Changing-Dealers" ?????

MSNBC.com

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9052541/

This is the table I used for tax credit:

I have never driven the hybrid Accord, but I wonder if sizing the engine for effective cylinder deactivation is critical?

Cadilliac tried this in the 80's - Honda is the first to try this again. My guess is the Accord is not in a three cylinder mode often for the average driver. OK, I'm assuming lead-foot drivers, but it's that reasonable to assume?

For cylinder deactivation to be effective, three cylinders have to be sufficient to allow the Accord to cruise in a fuel efficient manner. If it's hard to do, it's not much good. I recall discussions of four cylinder versions for the Insight and Civic and some responded that two cylinders just would not be enough to do an effortless cruise.

It's a good idea - maybe it still needs more work.

I have never driven the hybrid Accord, but I wonder if sizing the engine for effective cylinder deactivation is critical?

Cadilliac tried this in the 80's - Honda is the first to try this again. My guess is the Accord is not in a three cylinder mode often for the average driver. OK, I'm assuming lead-foot drivers, but it's that reasonable to assume?

For cylinder deactivation to be effective, three cylinders have to be sufficient to allow the Accord to cruise in a fuel efficient manner. If it's hard to do, it's not much good. I recall discussions of four cylinder versions for the Insight and Civic and some responded that two cylinders just would not be enough to do an effortless cruise.

It's a good idea - maybe it still needs more work.
Hi Chuck;

I drove the HAH on at least 3-separate occassions and what I saw was. If you could get out of the Stop & Go City Stoplight Congested Driving. You could really do quite well with (FE) from the HAH. It is a really very Fine Automobile. Get stuck in the City though and the (FE) just drops like a "Rock" (IMO) until you can get back on the road. Most people that I think would purchase the HAH are not going to get the Top-FE that is "Maybe" possible if you (Make-Yourself) drive with a foot pressing on an "Egg" under the go-pedal. You have all this, POWER, and for the most part you are going to use it. Love the HAH and was going to Bite-The-Bullit more than once and purchase one, but then the $$$$$$.$$ Cost is just, to me "High". So I never made the move. The HAH is one very fine Hybrid but with Lower FE and High Performance as a Trade-Off for Lower FE.

Hi All:

___Although I have some disagreement with the pricing discussion between Mark and Terry, I want to add that for a mostly highway driver, the AH in its present form can do some amazing things in the FE department. Because of its unusual OD shorted Tranny after a FAS, you don’t have all the tools of the std. I4’s AT but driving Mark’s AH last year, it can and does improve one’s FE in VCM while taking it easy if one likes. A simple DWL and DWB technique(s) as well as following the speed limits will easily yield 40 - 45 mpg’s out on the highway and there is nothing in the mid-sized class (the Prius II is not a mid-sized in my eyes) other then maybe the new TCH and the much less performance oriented TDI’s that can do that for the average driver. The pricing is indeed a large hurdle for its intended market but again, 40 + is relatively easy as Mark and GoNavy can attest while driving the Interstate over a lengthy segment. That does not mean I would recommend one knowing what I know today but for an all highway driver looking for near lux, the AH can satisfy those needs. All this talk of $31K for an AH is a slap in the face imho. The $29 - $30K + 05 non-NAVI’s that were sold in the previous 5 or 6 months were going out the door in the $26K range.

___On the other hand, If Honda pulls back on the 06’s supply as I am sure they will to boost pricing, AH’s will not sell in any quantity at $30K +. Given the new 06’s even lower EPA ratings, Honda has a huge problem in the mid-sized high-FE market compared to the upcoming TCH and I have no idea how they are going to handle the problem?

___Mark, you should writefor a top tier political mag as you always come off so darned eloquent when compared to the rest of us ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne