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Then there is the Maybes. :)

Ive started this thread in the hope that we can make our self's better drivers. Not that we aren't already good drivers as FE drivers. But how can we make our self's better drivers.

Do we really know how to slide a car and how to handle such a event when it happens. Cause it will happen. Do we know how to handle a blow out? Not what we have been told or read. Do we really know how our brakes work. How our suspension works be it a live axle, independent, or any variant of. We can chat about the differences in RWD, FWD, AWD, 4x4. Do you have questions regarding weight shift. What might my car do when I press up my tires? Its handling will change. Do I really have my mirrors set right? Can I make them better? All sorts of stuff.

Bring it here. I hope we can have a very active, informative and thoughtful thread....

psy

Great lead-in, Psy.

I have good advice about rear-view mirrors that I learned from Ray and Tom, the CarTalk radio guys. It uses the available mirror surface much more safely, effectively reducing - and in some cars, eliminating - the "inherent" blind spots. I did it years ago because it just made sense. Check it out here: http://cartalk.com/content/features/mirrors/step1.html

Great lead-in, Psy.

I have good advice about rear-view mirrors that I learned from Ray and Tom, the CarTalk radio guys. It uses the available mirror surface much more safely, effectively reducing - and in some cars, eliminating - the "inherent" blind spots. I did it years ago because it just made sense. Check it out here: http://cartalk.com/content/features/mirrors/step1.html

That is very good advice. I look at my mirrors a bit diff. I always set the side ones in my normal seating postion just off the point to where I see the side of the car. If I want to look into the side of the car or truck. Its just a slight head shift. Up or down again can be changed with just a slight head shift. I really dont use the center rear view more than looking at general traffic behind me. I will use it for a all clear when backing. But use the side mirrors more for the task once I feel good Im clear to back up. I also at times will use the power mirror function when backing up to flat look around. I dont need both hands to back up anything. I do need to see around me and where Im going.

My poor wife is a swivel head. She doesn't trust herself or the mirrors. When I drive the Accord I reset them to my liking. Ive found she is leaving them more to my left right tune. But adjust them down for her height. She still scares me when I ride with her. Thats why I have to drunk and not able to drive to let her drive. :)

Good post. :)

psy

Great lead-in, Psy.

I have good advice about rear-view mirrors that I learned from Ray and Tom, the CarTalk radio guys. It uses the available mirror surface much more safely, effectively reducing - and in some cars, eliminating - the "inherent" blind spots. I did it years ago because it just made sense. Check it out here: http://cartalk.com/content/features/mirrors/step1.html

Nice! I was going to post the same thing after reading the OP. Then I saw that you beat me to it. I've been in so many vehicles where the side mirrors are set so that you have a nice view of the side of your vehicle. That is the one thing the driver doesn't need to see. I would hope that they knew where the sides of their vehicle were. ;)

Ive got one.

Depth and size perception. You've heard about the folks that have to have a tennis ball hung from the ceiling in there garage to park there car. Yeah know centered to where when it touches the windshield there parked perfect. Or those that cant for love of god park straight in a Wal-Mat parking lot. But these folks seem to be able to drive down the road centered in there lane with there butt off center.

A chief complaint of folks now days concerning small cars is they cant see the hood so they dont know where there bumper is.

Is there any advice we can give these folks concerning this issue?

psy

The mirror advice is good. I first learned about that maybe a year ago and now that I'm used to properly adjusted mirrors I can't drive without them.

As for emergency handling, it's very important. Learning to drive in New England made that readily apparent :) . The thing about it is that just talking about skid correction doesn't help much when it counts most. Practice in a controlled environment is key, and it should be continued until the right wheel control and footwork are entirely automatic. My method of developing that stuff was to look for little opportunities in empty, icy parking lots to get the car sideways and then bring it back in line. After a while it's not so scary and the corrections just happen. Rear end goes left, the wheel goes with it nice and smooth. Likewise to the right. More importantly, having a feel for what it takes to get a car into a bad situation will help a driver to keep that from happening in the first place. Lord knows that my self-education has saved my butt on several occasions that I can think of, not to mention my cars.

Being a new transplant to the southeast, it's interesting to talk to some of the locals about what happens in the winter. If an inch of snow falls nobody goes anywhere because it always results in some kind of major traffic disaster. In the northeast it just takes thirty seconds longer to get to work that day. But I've noticed that people can't handle the rain here, either. If the roads get just the slightest bit wet there's always a few people who are more than willing to find a way to make contact and wind up in the ditch. I have to believe that it's partially because they never get the annual refresher course that northerners get. If loss of traction is always a new thing then how is anyone to know how to react to it?

The mirror advice is good. I first learned about that maybe a year ago and now that I'm used to properly adjusted mirrors I can't drive without them.

As for emergency handling, it's very important. Learning to drive in New England made that readily apparent :) . The thing about it is that just talking about skid correction doesn't help much when it counts most. Practice in a controlled environment is key, and it should be continued until the right wheel control and footwork are entirely automatic. My method of developing that stuff was to look for little opportunities in empty, icy parking lots to get the car sideways and then bring it back in line. After a while it's not so scary and the corrections just happen. Rear end goes left, the wheel goes with it nice and smooth. Likewise to the right. More importantly, having a feel for what it takes to get a car into a bad situation will help a driver to keep that from happening in the first place. Lord knows that my self-education has saved my butt on several occasions that I can think of, not to mention my cars.

Being a new transplant to the southeast, it's interesting to talk to some of the locals about what happens in the winter. If an inch of snow falls nobody goes anywhere because it always results in some kind of major traffic disaster. In the northeast it just takes thirty seconds longer to get to work that day. But I've noticed that people can't handle the rain here, either. If the roads get just the slightest bit wet there's always a few people who are more than willing to find a way to make contact and wind up in the ditch. I have to believe that it's partially because they never get the annual refresher course that northerners get. If loss of traction is always a new thing then how is anyone to know how to react to it?

Very good indeed brick.

Its hard to talk about driving skills. Without practicing. And I know in certain parts of the country. Its real hard to find a place to play, study and learn. And not to mention what some the study will do to your mpg.

But I feel its so very important for folks to understand the physics of there car. And learn to adapt to them on the fly as you learned.

As for the rain and snow. City Okies are idiots. The country folk know. But the city dwellers forget.... It just rained yesterday. O boy we get to hydroplain again. And then there is the snow and ice. We dont get the northern winters. But 10" of snow is a snow fall no matter the part of the country you live in. Its white sh*t and its slick! O well lets try 65 mph.... DUH. By the ice storm they had almost learned.

I remember in 2001 we had a ice storm. I was driving into work. I'd made it up Beggs hill in the Rangealturd. Heck thats half the battle getting to Tulsa from here. Anyway I topped the hill and got north of hwy 16. It was freezing rain. My wipers iced up. So I pulled over to clean the wipers. It was glazing ice. As I was beating off and cleaning the wipers. I was thinking. It aint smart to be out here. What cars are moving are doing so 15 mph or under. The others are sliding off the road. At that moment I felt like I was sliding. I got what i thought was control of myself. It wasn't me. It was the truck sliding off the road and shoulder. Yep gravity and the ice got the truck sliding off the shoulder down into a ditch. I wasn't falling the truck was. I just set there and watched it slide away. Then hitched a ride back to town with some folks I knew that turned around down the road. I didnt even bother to try and go down to it and turn it off or lock it up. Just left it running down there. It was dead when i got back hours later. Battery dead and alot of gas burnt. I put on some old football cleats. Went down and stuck another battery in it. And pulled it out with a chained up Escort of all things. And yes I had chains on the rear of the truck.

Talk about a fast refresher course in winter driving. Kinda like sliping and falling on the ice or snow. That should tell you something. :)

psy

May I recommend Autocrossing? You'll learn the vehicle's limits. And it's a hoot! SCCA says, "Solo events, often set up in parking lots or any place with a large expanse of pavement, are all about a driver's ability to accurately and precisely maneuver around a pylon-marked course in the fastest time possible.

If you think you have what it takes to beat the clock and your fellow drivers, then show up an SCCA Solo event. Prove that you're as good as your car looks, that you have what it takes to go fast. Don't think your car is up to it? Show up anyway. Chances are someone will show you the ropes behind the wheel of theirs."

Any grocery-getter will do. I've seen Accords, Sebrings, Caprices, Saturns, Huyndais run. And it's usually about $30 for the day. Check out http://scca.com/Solo/Solo.asp?IdS=3E67AE-F507310&x=050|010&~=

In my job I drive 2 WD pickups in almost all weather (not all because they call and tell me to come home when the interstates close and I pull over for tornadoes and hailstorms) . I have learned most of these through personal experience and too many close calls.

My winter driving tips:

1. Constantly anticipate road conditions--you constantly need to be aware of the traction characteristics of both your drive and steering axles. This will be hard to do if you are on the cell phone.

2. Give your car gentle inputs on brakes, steering and acceleration based on the observed traction conditions at the time(shouldn't be a problem for hypermilers.)

3. Adjust speed and following distance according to the current traction conditions.

4. Everybody has to learn sometime. Assume five per cent of the other drivers don't know what they are doing in the snow; assume ten per cent for SUV drivers (your local percentages may vary). Adjust speed and following distance accordingly.

5. Don't use cruise. In poor traction conditions it may make your engine accelerate unpredictably and spin you out.

6. Take more breaks--winter driving is harder work.

7. Leave the trailer at home, particularly when it's windy. If you are on snow/ice and you try to accelerate to pull the trailer out of an oscillation you will probably end up in the ditch; if you don't try to accelerate you will probably also end up in the ditch.

8. Fight the wind when opening your door. If you open your door when a strong wind is behind you, you may spring your hinges. It is a real PITA to try to rehang a door in the middle of a blizzard.

There are also a couple of technical things that drivers who rarely drive in snow may want to be reminded of. When stuck in the snow etc. the good advice I got in drivers ed was to try rocking the car back and forth between forward and reverse. You may want to use second or third gear in your manual transmission car so that you are a little less likely to spin your wheels. Also if you have front wheel drive, try changing the steering angle after the first couple of tries--you may find a patch of traction that you haven't already polished slick.

Once you're at a halt where your vehicle has plowed snow (or sand or mud) under it so that you are high center you are pretty much screwed and need to get the shovel, come along or tow truck to help you out. Spinning your wheels won't help if you are stuck high center. If you are plowing snow under your vehicle but still have momentum, do anything that's prudent to keep your momentum going and try to head for shallower snow before you get stuck.

May I recommend Autocrossing? You'll learn the vehicle's limits. And it's a hoot! SCCA says, "Solo events, often set up in parking lots or any place with a large expanse of pavement, are all about a driver's ability to accurately and precisely maneuver around a pylon-marked course in the fastest time possible.

If you think you have what it takes to beat the clock and your fellow drivers, then show up an SCCA Solo event. Prove that you're as good as your car looks, that you have what it takes to go fast. Don't think your car is up to it? Show up anyway. Chances are someone will show you the ropes behind the wheel of theirs."

Any grocery-getter will do. I've seen Accords, Sebrings, Caprices, Saturns, Huyndais run. And it's usually about $30 for the day. Check out http://scca.com/Solo/Solo.asp?IdS=3E67AE-F507310&x=050|010&~=

It is a great place to learn. Great idea.

Folks are nice as can be in the SCCA solo events. Auto-X as I like to call it. My father ran Solo for years. He also hill climbed and rallied some. Thus my brother and sister also grew up running.

Last time I was suppose to run the Civic I was to late. Just didnt get my butt up and moving on time. But my brother was there running his Fiat x/19. After the event we got a handful of ones and did some fun runs. Last run I roade with my brother and he made me sick in that Fiat. I had never in my life got car sick. I learned real fast. Solo may have passed me by. :) My god did he have that x/19 digging hard. :woot:

psy

On the subject of mirror adjustment: Mine probably end up pretty much in the position described in the Car Talk article.

First, as the article suggests, it provides slight overlap between the inside and outside mirrors. Of course there is a blind spot beyond the outside mirror as vehicles approach your 3 or 9 o'clock. For that I use small adhesive blind spot mirrors stuck to the top outside corner of the side mirrors. Using them takes a little getting used to. But after driving emergency vehicles and trucks for years, I've come to consider them essential. That was the first mod I made to the Prius.

Second, I like to see down the side of the car. I use the outside mirrors for backing and close quarter manuevering, and I want to know exactly where the car's side and rear corner are.

Speaking of same: I avoid backing out of parking spaces whenever possible. Avoiding reverse altogether is best (as in face-out parking), but when faced with the choice of backing out or backing in, the latter is safer. Visibility during backing out, especially side-to-side beyond adjacent vehicles, is considerably less than when pulling forward. There are many moving objects -- pedestrians and cars -- crossing your path that need to see you and be seen. When backing in, you can thoroughly survey the area around the space before committing to park. As the rear of the car approaches the threshold of the parking space, there is a much lower chance of pedestrians unexpectedly walking across your path, and no chance of a car moving across it.

May I recommend Autocrossing?
Excellent advice! Another option for folks in the northern states: years ago I worked in Sweden, and the local auto club ran a safety event on a local frozen lake. They set up cones on the ice and had us do various maneuvers at increasing speeds to learn handling. The police even showed up and did it in their cruiser! People drive on frozen lakes quite a bit in Sweden. It was a bit of a shock to be out for a winter hike in the woods by a lake and see a Saab whiz by.

Another tip when heading out on snowy roads is to test the traction by jabbing the brakes and seeing how much it takes to slide. Obviously in a safe spot (deserted street, parking lot) and at low speeds. Gives you a good read on how bad things really are, and a sort of mini-refresher course on what sliding feels like in that vehicle. You can repeat as you are coming to stop signs and stop lights, just leave lots of room so you don't slide through the stop!

JimboK, I agree with everything you said, and I have to make more of an effort to park facing out, because you're absolutely right.

One commment: motorcycle safety training taught us to do TWO headchecks before changing direction, so I try to do the same thing in a car. Granted, motorcycle mirrors often give a good view of just your own elbow so there is more justification for this on a bike. But my Insight has huge blind spots too. Mirrors are great for general awareness of what's going on but I believe it's best to headcheck before actually changing direction or switching lanes.

I was just thinking back to the fundamentals and remembered a great piece of advice that my mother passed down to me from her father. What she said was "Never do anything suddenly. Ever." I think it makes sense. The truth is that humans make mistakes, but the slower we make a mistake the more likely it can be stopped before causing a serious problem. For example, who has ever started to make a lane change only to realize that somebody is right there? Guilty, despite my best efforts to check and double check. But I've developed the habit of making very slow, predictable changes and both times that I can think of, the other guy had time to see what was going on and use the horn for its intended purpose.

A couple of tips for driving on icy roads:

When driving at night on a wet road when parts of it are starting to turn to ice, the icy sections will have a duller, less-shiny appearance (sort of like comparing high gloss paint to flat paint) in the reflection from your headlights.

One way that I test for the presence of ice on the road is to do a quick left-right-left-right turn of the steering wheel, going 1/8 of a turn on either direction and with a cycle time of under 1/2 sec. I know how my car normally responds to this steering input on a wet or dry, non-icy road. So if the car steers straight ahead with no slight jiggles resulting from the steering input, then I know that the road surface is getting icy.

When bridges are icy, but the roads are just wet, I will cross the bridges at a fast speed. Due to enertia, it takes a few seconds for anything to start happening on ice, so if I cross the bridge at 60mph, taking 1 or 2 seconds to cross it, I will be back on a non-icy surface before anything has time to get squirrely. But if I cross the bridge at 25mph, taking 10 seconds to cross it, I might be spun around and travelling backwards by the time I get to the other side of the bridge.

Below 0F, ice is not much of a problem. The colder it is, the more it is like driving on concrete. There have been a number of times when driving in the NC mountains on icy roads when the temp was below zero, that I saw people driving VERY slowly because the roads were icy when they weren't any more slick at those temperatures than driving on a slightly damp road.

Another tip when heading out on snowy roads is to test the traction by jabbing the brakes and seeing how much it takes to slide. Obviously in a safe spot (deserted street, parking lot) and at low speeds. Gives you a good read on how bad things really are, and a sort of mini-refresher course on what sliding feels like in that vehicle. You can repeat as you are coming to stop signs and stop lights, just leave lots of room so you don't slide through the stop!

living in minnesota, i am very familiar with this. i almost always try a stop after i enter the highway from our dirt road, just to get a feel for what the surface is like. if my antilock brakes kick in right away, i turn around and go home.

I agree on the Solo-X stuff, and parking lot self-teaching. It has been a long time, but I used to do a lot of ice racing on frozen Wisconsin lakes in various club events, have a few trophies from those times. I snowplow during the winter for 22 years now, in pickup trucks, Broncos, skid steers, articulated front end loaders, up to F8000 dump trucks. I find that testing road conditions from a little stab at the brake is probable the best as far as it doesn't make much of a change in the vechicle's heading or stability, really important in a large truck with 8,000 lbs of salt in the back end - that's a lot of inertia. Definitely increase your distances between vehicles, and figure that 50% of the SUV drivers are overconfident, and those coming up to a stop sign on the cross street are going to slide right in front of you... there would have been a whole lot of crushed vehicles on my front bumper without DWB and anticipation of their idiocy. Same applies for rain, especially if it is just a sprinkle, enough to slicken up the oil and make the road like glare ice.

Hi Ken:

___Hearing a plow drivers perspective really added a nice touch to this thread.

___I am not one for Auto-Crossing but in general, if I start to feel her slip a touch, I get ultra conservative with the higher speed turns and such.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I've found the best way to keep centered in your lane is to look as far ahead as you can. You'll just naturally center yourself.

Driving on ice... I'm no good at it. We get maybe 1-2 chances a year to learn, and that's just not enough. At least I know I don't know.

I used to complain about my Civic's low traction. Since hypermiling, I haven't slipped once. A lighter foot on the gas fixed it all.

I've found the best way to keep centered in your lane is to look as far ahead as you can. You'll just naturally center yourself.


Exactly what I tell my daughter. She still wobbles around sometimes --oversteering. She only drives a few months in the summer out of the year. I tell her "don't look at where you are. Just look ahead where you want to be and the car will go there."

Exactly what I tell my daughter. She still wobbles around sometimes --oversteering. She only drives a few months in the summer out of the year. I tell her "don't look at where you are. Just look ahead where you want to be and the car will go there."
It's called target fixation and is a big problem on a motorcycle. Where you look is where you go. So if you're staring at a pothole you will hit it. The trick is to look NEXT to the pothole, where you want your tires to go, and that will happen.

To amuse myself on I-95 I sometimes try to put my bike's tires smack on top of the yellow paint stripe that defines the left edge of the left lane, and follow it around curves, etc. When no other traffic is nearby, obviously (and NOT when it's raining, because the paint gets slippery). The trick is to relax and look far ahead, just as you say.

Two basic skills should be *required* of anyone wanting a
driver license, anywhere: 1> being able to back with mirrors
only, like you were in a truck; and 2> competently handling
a car while spinning around in snowy parking lots. What folks
have said about quick tests that don't affect speed or
direction but inform a driver of ambient conditions are spot-
on -- easy to do at the right times. In fact I've thought of
likening hypermiling to driving as though you were on glare
ice, but that doesn't quite work because you want to *work*
the engine a little on the takeoff and digging into turns is
okay whereas on ice you'd, well, not turn. Anyways... yes yes
yes and yes on various skills that have been mentioned, and
agreement [although nobody's actually stated it yet] that the
testing standards for licensing are *nowhere* near what they
need to be. A read through the CDL manual is very enlightening;
it actually advocates knowing something *about* that multi-ton
pile of scrap metal before you get anywhere near its controls.
.
I see a lot of drivers totally clueless about their own
dimensions, too -- especially in SUVs. The Prius is deceiving
too, for different reasons fore and aft, and that's why the
right thing to do is go find where some vertical object intersects
an area of pavement and practice gently bumping said object
to observe what it looks like when your car's actually made
contact with it. After you know, tight-in maneuvering is *so*
much easier, but the exercise has to be repeated for each car
anyone's going to get used to.
.
_H*

Someone once said, "I'm convinced the only people who don't buy snow tires have never driven on them."

Me, too.

I grew up in NY and now live in mountainous MD, and got my first set of winter tires last year after looking them up on Consumer Reports. I'm a believer because there is a HUGE difference between the traction of a good all-season on ice and a good snow tire on ice. I think it's 90% about the softer rubbber that was engineered to be at home below 32F. And that's why they may that "sticky" sound like they're leaving a bunch of rubber on the road in the spring and it's 60 or 70F out, becuase they are.

.
The Prius is deceiving too, for different reasons fore and aft, and that's why the right thing to do is go find where some vertical object intersects an area of pavement and practice gently bumping said object to observe what it looks like when your car's actually made contact with it.
_H*

I remember curb feelers. Though I've adjusted to not being able to "see" the front end of my car it would be nice to have one there.

One thing I never experienced until my commute changed last winter was people wiping out when they were going less than 20 MPH, and they were not turning. I'm not joking. Not once but twice in February of this year I had vehicles in front of me - both were large, RWD sedans - spin out or plow into a side bank on Mount Rose for no apparent reason.

One thing that both drivers had in common was being scared. I mean white knuckled, hugging the steering wheel, wide eyed, high strung fear. These guys got themselves so worked up that they literally twitched their way into a loss of traction.

Yes, adverse conditions require extra work and lots of extra attention. However, you also need to breathe once in a while.

On a different note, a lot of us got a refresher on the overconfidence of 4x4 drivers when one of my coworkers became "Ditch Rider" during a snowfall in April. 4WD helps you accelerate better than usual, but it does not help handling or stopping much at all. It usually makes your turning radius much larger as well, which needs to be accounted for. If you do not have a locking rear differential (which 90% or so of 4x4 vehicles do not) then 4WD can be your worst enemy as if both tires on one side of the vehicle begin to slip, all 4 tires will lose power. See an explanatory animation at http://auto.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive3.htm

As a result of this thread I am now backing into parking spaces (or pulling thru when I can). I'm stupid not to think of this before, it's MUCH safer. Thanks!!

One thing I never experienced until my commute changed last winter was people wiping out when they were going less than 20 MPH, and they were not turning. I'm not joking. Not once but twice in February of this year I had vehicles in front of me - both were large, RWD sedans - spin out or plow into a side bank on Mount Rose for no apparent reason.

One thing that both drivers had in common was being scared. I mean white knuckled, hugging the steering wheel, wide eyed, high strung fear. These guys got themselves so worked up that they literally twitched their way into a loss of traction.

Yes, adverse conditions require extra work and lots of extra attention. However, you also need to breathe once in a while.

I remember *many* years ago, in my first (& only rear-wheel drive) car (a Chevette - I loved that car :)), driving home from work on the Interstate one December evening after a snow-storm, followed by a cold(er)-snap. Coming over the crest of a hill, I saw several cars in the ditches on either side of the highway. Thinking I could slow down with control by down-shifting, I did just that, & found myself suddenly skidding from one side of the road to the other :eek: (Fortunately, there were no other cars around me.) My thoughts went from "I hope I can stay on the road" to "It won't be the end of the world if I go in the ditch - I hope I don't get too badly hurt". As my idea of a "good" outcome changed, it allowed me to relax my grip on the steering wheel, the car stabilized itself, & I stayed on the road & got home safely :)