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Hello

Finally some test data from AVTL on PHEV prius

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/prius.pdf

Andrew:D

Hi Andrew:

___Thanks for the link!

___The item I thought was the most interesting was the highway FE over 20 miles. At 21 miles out on the HWFET, the darn thing is still pulling almost 130 mpg! I also saw the Valances were choked down to just a 50% of max SoC making their Prius-II essentially a PHEV-20. I have read the A123System’s Li-Ion’s can be opened to 80 + % and still hold a 10 year lifespan … supposedly?

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/EPA_Hwy_Test_-_New_Pic.gif

___Notice this test (HWFET) is ~ 80% above 40 mph where the current Prius’ EV mode all but disappears other then downhill under warp stealth yet the DOE tests show Energy CS’ PHEV-20 receiving that magic 130 mpg.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This is an Energy CS converted Prius rather than Toyota's planned PHEV for model year 2009/2010.

While this is interesting data I'm much more curious about Toyota's PHEV performance.

Hi Andrew:

Your welcome

___The item I thought was the most interesting was the highway FE over 20 miles. At 21 miles out on the HWFET, the darn thing is still pulling almost 130 mpg! I also saw the Valances were choked down to just a 50% of max SoC making their Prius-II essentially a PHEV-20. I have read the A123System’s Li-Ion’s can be opened to 80 + % and still hold a 10 year lifespan … supposedly?

I have to admit, I was impressed. I noticed the 50%SOC, 10year battery life requirement was probably the reason. But anyway you still have 5kWh to play with. The Hymotion versions usually have less kWh to start with. Being able to charge both ways, I could probably do my whole commute at 150mpg....:Banane33:


___Notice this test (HWFET) is ~ 80% above 40 mph where the current Prius’ EV mode all but disappears other then downhill under warp stealth yet the DOE tests show Energy CS’ PHEV-20 receiving that magic 130 mpg.

AFIK At high SOC ranges(80%) at highway speeds, the Prius will preferentially fuel cut. In depletion mode it tries to do this as much as possible.

Although it is not T-sama version PHEV yet, hopefully it will be put pressure on them to deliver production PHEV. I would prefer a 2ndhand gen2 + PHEV conversion over a gen3 HEV with no PHEV capability.

Good Luck
Andrew

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Some more updates on PHEV testing at AVTA, Hymotion Prius and Kangoo

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/7_Francfort_field_testing.pdf

They also mention that they will be acquiring a Hymotion Civic.

Andrew

They also mention that they will be acquiring a Hymotion Civic.

Andrew
Hymotion Civic? Is that right?

I hadn't heard of that before.

Can anyone direct me to some info?

The AVTA PHEV section is at

http://avt.inl.gov/phev.shtml

from a DOE workshop it was mentioned here in the original link, page 10

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/7_Francfort_field_testing.pdf

Good Luck
Andrew

The Hymotion Civic is part of NYSERDA evaluation of conversion methods applicable to its fleet of Prius, Civic HEV and Escape HEV. I supposed blended mode operation would be significantly improved.

http://www.hymotion.com/pdf/Hymotion_A123_NYSERDA%20Press%20Release.pdf

Good Luck
Andrew

So the PHEV analysis seems to suggest that the battery costs should approach ~$3300 for ~5kWh in order for there to be a reasonable payback period (and hence widespread business/consumer interest). AM I on the right track? And what are those types of Li-Ion setups, just the batteries themselves, costing currently? Like $10k?

Still, I'm sure there are a good number of us folks who would pay the extra 6-10k for a PHEV, even with a payback horizon of >10years. If at least to send our pocket-book-based message about energy independence and global warming, etc. I just can't help thinking it shouldn't being a 'conversion' in order to reduce the middlemen. So what is the great hope? Volt? Will Toyota have a sudden change about the next-gen Prius?

I think a $3,000 priced battery pack at 5kWh is probably unlikely, 5year pay back at 60miles/trip for 100,000miles driven. Maybe $6,000 this would double the payback period, assuming gasoline stays at $3 per gal. which also very unlikely. I agree the OEM should be able to do this much cheaper. (no need for charger use the inverter already there)

It depends on the distance driven per day 5kWh would be PHEV25 (200Wh/mile) or 25m all electric range. The UDDS test exceeds the 35mph EV limit in the Prius, forcing the ICE on. If you have the roads for this speed, (all urban roads in Japan are below this speed) and have a halfway commute of less than 25mile, charging both ways you could get by without using gasoline altogether. For the current Civic, you would always need to use gasoline.

Good Luck
Andrew

I just can't help thinking it shouldn't being a 'conversion' in order to reduce the middlemen. So what is the great hope? Volt? Will Toyota have a sudden change about the next-gen Prius?

I can only guess, what will T-sama do for the next gen Prius. The Li ion batteries were not good enough so they are sticking with NiMH. From a manufacturing point of view, their current NiMH battery costs must also be very low. They must expect the next Prius to be very high volume so to change immediately to Li was unlikely.

This is where the difference in PHEV approaches becomes important, the hymotion approach uses a hybrid battery it retains the original NiMH battery which it falls back after the A123 Li pack is nominally depleted. Energy CS completely replaces the original battery. So a T-sama PHEV with hybrid battery pack seems more likely, they can give different warranties for each pack, purely PHEV option. And this is where you might see the Lithium pack when it is ready,PHEV only. They could also make a very low cost PHEV with NiMH. I dont think they had planned on PHEV just yet, so the Volt has probably forced them to bring on PHEV sooner.

Good Luck
Andrew
:)

Hi Andrew:

___Brick (Tim) current has a draft write-up on the Prius’ EV button with a tie in to the PHEV’s. We are trying to get Jerad in the WPPI HyMotion/A123Systems Prius II PHEV conversion over the next few weeks for an overview from a hypermiler.

___What has me concerned about PHEV’s from both HyMotion and EnergyCS is the overall package may not allow any type of user interaction. Meaning what if the pack full scheme via either over-voltage or a CAN-Bus trigger forces the Prius-II into thinking there is always a pack that has to high a SoC? I have read of numerous reports of Prius-II packs with near or full SoC’s not letting the ICE shut down for glides and such. If the 2 PHEV conversion companies of note did not leave any leeway wrt the way the PHEV assists in all conditions, I know many a Prius-II hypermiler that could become very frustrated with a PHEV conversion quickly.

___For example … Let us say you have a very P&G friendly segment before hitting a higher speed roadway or Interstate where the Prius-II is 95 + mpg capable w/ minimal use of the pack? I am talking about a total commute beyond the 30 - 40 mile range of the PHEV to begin with … I would rather forego the PHEV Li-Ion pack during that short period and instead use the Li-Ion’s for the heavy assist portion out on the highway where the Prius-I and II see their most fuel economy limiting capabilities? Also, if the PHEV conversion gets in the way of running pure glides and such, shut the darned thing down when and where appropriate. If it does get in the way that is? I would like to also turn the Li-Ion’s off for the stop and crawls of the appropriate type as well? I hope you see where I am headed with this. I would love to have the ability to shut the PHEV assist portion down for any P&G friendly routes and traffic nightmares given this is where the Prius-II begins to shine so as to use the PHEV’s capabilities when and where I need it, not when and where it thinks I need it ;) After seeing the Prius-I’s full on assist at highway speeds in the 112 mpg range, I believe this is how the PHEV’s are receiving such great highway FE but I cannot rely on a PHEV-30/40 to take me all the way home over a 90 + mile drive? I sure the heck would try however :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Andrew:

___Brick (Tim) current has a draft write-up on the Prius’ EV button with a tie in to the PHEV’s. We are trying to get Jerad in the WPPI HyMotion/A123Systems Prius II PHEV conversion over the next few weeks for an overview from a hypermiler.



Look forward to both of these.

The can view is simply providing a trigger for selecting the Charge depletion or sustaining modes, it should be easy to switch between modes. Hymotion just falls back on the original battery therefore should be no change. For Energy CS, it would be more interesting if you could change the SOC range in CS mode, more of a MIMA approach for hilly terrain. Hard to say what P&G would be like until tested. 90+ mile would be pushing it but if used wisely I am sure you could almost make it.:D

Good Luck
Andrew

Baseline test data for Hymotion Prius conversion.

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/toyotaPriusHymotionFact.pdf

I have never been completely satisfied with the air conditioner A/C part of this test. Lowest temperature setting with flow blower on. You might use at the start getting into very hot car but continuously? It would get pretty cold.

Good Luck
Andrew

Hi Andrew:

___Most here can forego A/C and can beat the HWFET and especially the UDDS under any condition but for how long is the real question?

___I will be speaking with JimboK. quite a bit this coming weekend about SoC and current draw under EV given his CAN-View but I believe a well setup Prius-II can get down into the .1 - .12kWh/mi range and that should allow almost 30 miles of no fuel use with the 2.96 kWh available SoC. How to get much beyond that is going to be very interesting with that small a pack but could be a great challenge to try ;)

___On my own commute, I can see a CS model at ~ 100 mpg for the first 20 miles, 30 miles of CD - EV Assist at 140 and maybe 40 miles of 75 mpg highway. I will be talking to a lot of people (I hope I have the time) so as to get one of these little beauties into one of our hands. All the theoretical and non-hypermiler stuff looks promising but let us see what one of these beauties can do in the hands of someone that knows. Jerad is still waiting :D

___Good Luck and thanks for the link!

___Wayne

I cant vouch for the accuracy of this statement but apparently "T have a goal of AER 30km or about 18.5m" for their plug-in.
If its only electric this would be about 2.8kWh(150Wh/m) to 3.75kWh (200Wh/m) of useable charge. Maybe similar enough to A123 version regarding available charge.

My commute 35mile uphill for the morning, I could probably manage 100mpg for this part. The last segment is downhill for the 17m. Charging at work? maybe 150mpg for reverse trip. I think I could get close to 150mpg overall.

Andrew

Hi Andrew:

___I see you are thinking about the same thing. I saw your post about Toyota and their PHEV project but it had so little interest. Curious given the nature of some of us CleanMPG members ;) I had no time the day you posted but wanted it to go to the Home page as it was indeed news. I just wish I knew more about the sources …

___From the sounds of your calc’s, that Prius-III might indeed perform some magic on your route. The coast down the back side will give you some of the spent CAP back but with a plug-in at work, it would not really be needed. I suspect you will see more on the Prius-III in Japan then we will so keep us informed. I am sure Toyota would love to get its hands on A123Systems Cel’s but no matter, they have the internal engineering prowess using NiMH’s (if they have too?) over all the others to make up for someone else using Li-Ion’s at half the weight and twice the energy density.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

An update/overview on recent PHEV testing at AVT, includes some new Hymotion Escape (A123) PHEV base test results. Also if you want to get some idea how serial PHEV (e.g. Volt) hybrid will compare look at Renault Kangoo which has 9.6kWh NiCad battery, being able to do 40miles at 0gal is very appealing. A gen III Prius with the 35mph restriction removed would perform a lot better but 0gal ?

PDF is 3.0Mb
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/prog_info/DOE_Merit_Review_08_PHEVs.pdf

Good Luck
Andrew

Hi Andrew:

___I learn more about the PHEV’s from your links back to the Gov. lab data than I do over a month of reading doc’s and news items scattered around the web. The most interesting was the pack of the EnergyCS was 10 kWh with < 5 used and the HyMotion was equipped with a 4.7kWh pack??? Where were the 12 – 16 kWh packs :angry: The assist algorithms both EnergyCS and HyMotion are using make a big difference in FE from one another (page 27 and 28 in particular). The 100 + mpg claims most of the PHEV makers are allowing are not even close with the “dumb” real world drivers. There appears to be some warm-up hits on all the vehicles. The warm-up hit has to be eventually removed by the OEM’s or this is not going anywhere! Finally, I wish they would pull the PHEV-6/7 OEM Prius’ into the labs as that small ECU and SW upgrade would destroy the PHEV conversions all because of the 62 mph vs. 41 mph limitation.

___Thank you for the great find and link.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I hope T will eventually do the US06 in all EV but with the PII current 50kW electric motor the engine will come on for most drivers. For the PIII, upping the power of the electric motor to 100kW seems an easy fix or reduce weight (1/X approach).

As I have a lot 5% or 10% climb grades at 30-40mph, I worry whether there is enough power to do it in all EV.

Good Luck
Andrew