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So I'm sitting here at the computer and I think "Hey, I'll go to terrapass.com and see what it's all about." Plug in my details and find out that $40 will buy me carbon neutrality and a new decal for the Warp Wagon. $40 is not big money. $40 on a terrapass goes into the spreadsheet as "offsetting" something stupid I would probably buy with the money later in the month, instead. Just pull the trigger, says I. But the little voice in my head keeps screaming "tailpipe!" That is, the decal doesn't seal the tailpipe. $40 doesn't keep the carbon dioxide from exiting my vehicle and entering the atmosphere. Sure, it's supposed to go toward something else like a wind farm or a biomass power plant. Is that good enough? Can I really drive around knowing my $40 actually worked to prevent 8,000lb of C02 from rising into the air somewhere?

I guess part of me reacts very badly to the concept that we can just put a couple of bills in a black box and and pretend we're not part of the problem. Kinda like accepting the Dark Side. Maybe I'll be happy if I spend my $40 and then retain a guilty feeling over the fact that I'm still partially responsible for our economic plight and the death of several thousand of America's finest?

Who would have thought that buying a sticker would be so complicated?

The idea of offsets is not to achieve a zero carbon existence (which can only be accomplished via drastic lifestyle changes) but carbon neutrality, meaning you add no more than you take away via the offsets.

Hi Tim:

___I had those same thoughts but after a few days, I said to myself, “I am not doing anything other then consuming gasoline and emitting CO2 (at the rate of 28.x #’s per gallon including crude pump out to the Accord’s tank) and I have to do something!” Terrapass appears to be the best thing going for carbon offsets so I bit the bullet and made my purchase.

___In my case, I chose the HCH-I given my lmpg matches up nicely with it and ran it out to 50,000 miles for the year. $79.95 made me feel better but I am still waiting for a real world capable BEV/PHEV that can replace this gas sucking SOB no matter how many mpg’s I can wring out of her! The cling on plastic sticker for an interior window and the bumper sticker appear to be HQ and look nice. I will try and snap a pic or two tomorrow after I install them … A camera crew is coming out of San Francisco on Tuesday to film a segment for a Global Warming special so the Accord will receive a quick detail which is the prime time to install my “Guilty Conscious Remover’s” ;)

PS: Let Terrapass do the calc’s on an H2 at 50,000 miles if you think $40.00 is bad :D

___Good Luck with whatever you decide.

___Wayne

PS: Let Terrapass do the calc’s on an H2 at 50,000 miles if you think $40.00 is bad :D

For grins, why doesn't someone pretend they are the H2 SUT guy in Jersey that spends $50 a day and let Terrapass calculate the footprint on that?

For grins, why doesn't someone pretend they are the H2 SUT guy in Jersey that spends $50 a day and let Terrapass calculate the footprint on that?

Some rough approximations:
$50/day ~ 16 gal/day * 13 MPG (this seems optimistic, but it's apparently the figure TerraPass gives it) = ~200 miles/day = 70 to 75,000 miles/year

He should get 6 Road-Tripper TerraPasses. (http://www.terrapass.com/road/products.road.php?fulldata=true&yearselect=2005&makeselect=Hummer&modelselect=Hummer%2CH2+SUT+automatic+transmission+%2C13%2C13%2C0&mileselect=75000&ea=&m=1101116669192&t=0&sn=TerraPass&pp=%23WebRoot%23%2Froving%2FCCPrivacyPolicy.jsp&fc=%23000099&bc=%23FFFFFF&co=false&lang=en&sl=&m=1101116669192&p=oi&value_5000=Hummer&value_5100=H2+SUT+automatic+transmission&value_5200=2005) :eek: :eek: Still "only" $480/yr??

As usual I'm a skeptic, I traveled 9500 miles last year and used 324 gallons, at terrapasses 10,000 miles for my vehicle it's $49.95 based on 426 gallons used.

An H2 @ 50,000 is $319.80

I guess I can't imagine how 50 bucks somehow can be used to offset the gas I used.

Let's say every single car owner decided to purchase the terrapass, what would be done? Doesn't it ultmately say we don't have to change a thing, just pay terrapass?

There is very little mentioned at the terrapass site besides windpower investing and methane recovery to explain where the money goes.

They do at least give a list of media articles and op-eds good and bad for all to see.

This one highlights a few of the suspicions I have, namely that efficiency improvements that would have been done anyway or that were government mandated can be parleyed into credits to terrapass. We are setting up a system where efficiency improvements alone aren't enough, getting a government gift or tradeable commodity is the new expectation.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070507/thompson_moles

At the little brewery were I work, I just replaced an inefficient boiler with a much more efficient one for reasons having nothing to do with reducing carbon emissions, and everything to do with making better beer. Yet we will be using significantly less natural gas per barrel of beer. Should I contact terrapass to see how I can sell them something for my efforts? I don't think so, but maybe I should try.

Hi Worthywads:

___Terrapass is a method to offset the CO2 emissions YOU create when consuming a gallon of gasoline. That is all it is. If Terrapass supports the construction of a single wind turbine, it reduces a coal plants CO2 output and this is where the offset comes from.

___It is in all our interests to be skeptical given it is our money but tying what you achieved at work into Terrapass is a bit much. Your actions did a great thing for us all but the power that factory uses is more then likely composed of the US norms which means a lot of CO2 output from Coal. If the Hummer driver offsets his CO2 emissions with a Terrapass contribution and their audited numbers do offset his or her CO2, why not as it is better then doing nothing. The many other problems with regards to gasoline consumption still stand but at lest his or her CO2 has been accounted for.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I just cant get my head or wallet around this at all. Its like Peter paying Paul so Mary wont tell. I would think. After advertising, marketing, admin and such. My $40.00 bucks would be pretty much a waste. I say the Hummer driver fork it over. Im hypermiling. :)

psy

I see two issues here: The viability of the concept and the accountability of the offsetters. The concept aside, I would look at this much like I do a charitable donation. I don't give to charities unless they meet certain accountability standards, such as those endorsed by the BBB (http://www.give.org/standards/newcbbbstds.asp). There's just too much uncertainty about the offsetters for me to consider the concept.

Hi Worthywads:

___It is in all our interests to be skeptical given it is our money but tying what you achieved at work into Terrapass is a bit much. Your actions did a great thing for us all but the power that factory uses is more then likely composed of the US norms which means a lot of CO2 output from Coal.
___Wayne

My point isn't to get credit from terrapass, but my guess is that terrapass is using energy reductions from larger companies that are similar to my boiler upgrade, which stand on economic merit, and would have been done without terrapass selling a secondary indulgence.

The Kyoto protocal has strict measures of reduction that are governed, but terrapass and others may or may not be holding themselves to the same standards, and the article provided evidence that they are not.

I'll continue to do what I can, through reduction and elimination.

Hi Worthywads:
I'll continue to do what I can, through reduction and elimination.___I applaud you for doing so. I will do the same as well as purchase offsets knowing there is some CO2 reduction no matter how it is achieved. Terrapass knows it is being looked at and if a huge negative becomes apparent, their income stream disappears. Remember the CEO of the United Way and his million $ salary and the Golf outings for years and years? That was some 15 + years ago IIRC but the damage it caused to contributions was noticeable. Things changed mightily afterwards …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I was reading this article today …

Using Soil to Lock Up Carbon Could Help Offset Global Warming (http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_56943.shtml)

...and saw this:
Currently, the Chicago Climate Exchange is trading carbon dioxide at $4 a ton; it is projected that that the price will rise to $25-$85 a ton in the coming years.
That’s when I realized heyyy …you people have this all backwards. If anything, we should be monetizing our carbon savings.

Has anyone realized CMPG is an inherent carbon credit-generator? -- Guess how many tons of carbon is ~60K gallons of gas savings (from our banner) worth? Let’s see, at 20 lbs of CO2 per gal comes to 600 tons, and $4 a ton comes to $2,400. Now, should we use this windfall to pay members dividends, or just cover the ISP/server time …;)

And Wayne you’re like a walking solar generator, what are you doing buying carbon credits from TerraPass. Wait till the carbon price goes to $50 a ton -- during marathons you could sell your FE to the Chicago Climate Exchange. :D

I see your soil and raise you the Southern Ocean:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6665147.stm

And a good argument for PZEV cars:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6665803.stm

Hi Tarabell:

___You are too funny :D

___A good friend of mine was talking about doing this. When he saw my Terrapass bumper sticker, he said why doesn’t CleanMPG start its own Carbon Credit system and charge for it as well? I said that was a good idea ;)

___Imagine that, we all drive around the world again and again and again and collect cash for doing so :rolleyes:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The Kyoto protocal has strict measures of reduction that are governed, but terrapass and others may or may not be holding themselves to the same standards, and the article provided evidence that they are not.

Oops, here some disturbing evidence that even the UN/Kyoto regulators are finding serious gamesmanship in the carbon trading business.


Up to 20% of carbon savings in doubt as monitoring firms criticised by UN body.

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2093835,00.html

Yet none of the know violations warranted serious action from the UN.

"Separately, one of the CDM's experts calculates that as many as one third of the projects registered in India are commercial ventures which do not produce any additional cut in greenhouse gases and were wrongly approved.

The findings on one company, which is believed to have validated dozens of projects and verified millions of tonnes of carbon reductions, were so bad that the board considered suspending its right to work.

The chairman of the CDM board, Danish energy consultant Hans Jürgen Stehr, insisted that in the end the problem was not bad enough to require any of the companies to be suspended. However, he said: "This has been serious. We are talking about competence and the ability of the company to do a proper job." He ruled that none of the three companies be named."

More info on the inner workings of carbon offsets.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/08/gmcrops.food

Depending on your opinion of genetically modified organisms this could be good or bad news.

I think the seeds are good news from a fertilizer reducing angle, but they were created to reduce chemical use and some bright lawyers came up with the carbon credit angle.

The price of offsets should plummet as the market figures out how to receive credits for just about anything.:(

I was thinking about this the other day. There's Terrapass, carbonfund.org, and others that price at ~$5-10/ton on the CCX, and projects that price out at ~$25-35/ on ECX where its mandatory.

Guess which is probably more useful?

PS- if I buy offsets, it'll be from a transparent regulated clean energy project (Burbo Bank, anyone?) or a regulated CCS/reforestation project.

I got info last week that some co. from Canada is going to be putting in a factory near my office that will be building wind turbines for electric generation. It sounds like we will be supplying pumps, boiler, chiller and other tidbits to them.

Once there up and running and I meet a few of the insiders. I will find out if they have a donation fund to help offset purchase or production cost on projects they are working on. maybe make a donation once a year to one of there programs. Why give it to a third party when you can stick it right into the horses mouth. So to speak.

I have a simpler solution: Go to your local arboretum and buy some tree seedlings/saplings or whatever and plant them somewhere. In your garden would be nice but you could just plant them anywhere in the countryside. In the end, it achieves the same result. I just dont want to be making someone richer by paying carbon credits. How much of your carbon credit actually goes where it should? I was a little annoyed a while back when i read that the money goes to places like india to fund more eco ways of doing things. For example: a water pump operated by foot. So there we are, driving/ flying around like never before and we buy a water pump for some poor kid in india or wherever to run on all day and all is ok! No thanks. I'll stick to planting a few shrubs and trees and drive efficiently.

So I'm sitting here at the computer and I think "Hey, I'll go to terrapass.com and see what it's all about." Plug in my details and find out that $40 will buy me carbon neutrality and a new decal for the Warp Wagon. $40 is not big money. $40 on a terrapass goes into the spreadsheet as "offsetting" something stupid I would probably buy with the money later in the month, instead. Just pull the trigger, says I. But the little voice in my head keeps screaming "tailpipe!" That is, the decal doesn't seal the tailpipe. $40 doesn't keep the carbon dioxide from exiting my vehicle and entering the atmosphere. Sure, it's supposed to go toward something else like a wind farm or a biomass power plant. Is that good enough? Can I really drive around knowing my $40 actually worked to prevent 8,000lb of C02 from rising into the air somewhere?

I guess part of me reacts very badly to the concept that we can just put a couple of bills in a black box and and pretend we're not part of the problem. Kinda like accepting the Dark Side. Maybe I'll be happy if I spend my $40 and then retain a guilty feeling over the fact that I'm still partially responsible for our economic plight and the death of several thousand of America's finest?

Who would have thought that buying a sticker would be so complicated?

It's a nice idea and all to support cleaner energy... but this seems like I'm paying both Peter and Paul here. I pay to fill up my car... and then I pay more to buy a carbon offset? It just makes no sense for the wallet, is all. I hypermile so I can save my wallet.