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I'm not sure if it's a good thing but I am becoming increasingly proactive about asking people to stop their idling engines.

For example, yesterday I was running errands and parked at one end of a large retail area and was hoofing it to the various stores I needed to hit. In the middle of the main parking lot I had to walk past a school bus that was apparently in town ferrying some High School baseball players to a game and had stopped to let them eat at a pizzeria.

The lady driving the bus was just sitting there with the side door and her window wide open, enjoying the beautiful evening, while her big diesel engine idled away, emitting visible black smoke at the tail pipe and smelling of sulfur. I went to her window and politely asked her to turn off the engine, then briefly mentioned that her bus emits 1 pound of harmful emissions for every minute it idles (I know, I know, it can be between 0.5 and 2 pounds per minute, but 1 pound is a good compromise for larger vehicles, 0.5 for passenger vehicles.

This morning I was taking our recyclable materials out to the large bins at work and up a small hill and diagonal to us was a big dump truck-type hauling vehicle with some contractor's logo on the side of it sitting there just idling with no one in it, smelling of sulfur even 20m away on this calm morning. I was so tempted to just climb up, reach in and turn it off, but there are certain liabilities to this.

I had time to finish dumping all of our recylables into the bins, walk the 100m back inside, sit down and type and print out a little note about harmful emissions, 0 MPG and "Keep Tahoe Blue", etc., walk back outside and up the hill, climb up and place it under the driver's windshield wiper, with the truck idling unattended the whole time.

About 20 minutes later I was taking our cardboard to the collection station and noticed the truck had moved about 50m down a driveway behind some industrial units. It was again unattended but my note was gone and the engine was off. :)

On my walk to lunch I needed to run an errand to the local Rat Shack to get a new battery for my garage door opener (it's kind of funny... I come in so fast on the FAS from the road to my subdivision that I need to be able to get the garage door open from a bit of distance, but the battery had depleted to the point that I was smacking the antenna on top of my Yaris on the bottom of the door as it opens). On my way in I passed an S10 Blazer that had a passenger but no driver, with the windows down and the engine idling.

I had time to walk the remaining 50m into the store, wait my turn for the clerk to get the batteries which are kept behind the counter, pay with my credit card and then walk back out to that vehicle, and it had been idling the whole time. I approached the passenger and asked him to turn it off, gave the short, succinct speech about 1 pound of harmful emissions every 2 minutes, etc. He immediately turned off the engine and thanked me for the information.


As I said I'm not sure if this is all a good thing. While I am definitely helping the Reno/Tahoe area a bit for each person I educate I wonder if I'm not becoming too meddlesome.

What are your thoughts?

You seem to have the guts, go for it!
I'm still contemplating signs for the rear of my own vehicle.

You definitely get my respect for this! Idling is a huge fuel waster and we're only going to see it more as the weather gets warmer. Yesterday I was taking a walk and saw some guy delivering flyers. He would drive a couple hundred feet, get out of the van and walk slowly to wherever he was going, drive another couple hundred feet and do it again, all the time with the engine running. (Not to mention that he was doing this on a narrow yet busy street, screwing up traffic and forcing dozens of people to brake and waste even more fuel.) But I definitely didn't have the cojones to do anything about it.

I dunno. I have mixed feelings, but it's probably more about the tactics than the concept.

If it was me a couple of years ago, I probably would not have received your message well. I wouldn't have been overtly rude, but indeed I probably would have called you meddlesome, at least to myself.

On the flip side, I see a parallel in something I do on occasion. As an EMS provider of many years, I've seen too many kids injured and killed from being unrestrained in a crash. (Adults too, but they make their own decisions.) When I see a car pull up in a parking lot with little kids sitting on an adult's lap or standing on the floorboard, I often confront them. But my tactics aren't abrupt.

I'm pretty good at starting a casual and friendly conversation with strangers. I may begin with a genuine compliment: "Beautiful little girl you have there," or "Nice looking car." If it is a nice car, I may say, "How do you like it?" (Who doesn't want to talk about their car?) If nothing else, I may feign the need for directions. After breaking the ice, I'll usually introduce myself and shake hands. If they're talkative, I may continue with small talk. I'll wrap up the conversation with something to the effect of, "Listen, one more thing and I'll leave you alone. I'm a paramedic, and over the years I've seen too many beautiful little kids get badly mangled from not being in the car seat. I wouldn't want to see that happen to yours, and I wouldn't want to see you get a ticket. Please forgive me for butting in, but your little girl really needs to be in the seat when you're on the move. Thanks for listening."

If I sense they're not very social, I may just say something like, "Hey, I understand the local cops write a lot of tickets around here for kids being unrestrained," without the small talk.

Good luck.

I'd also say go for it, but keep an eye out for the nasties.

Come to think of it, this is probably one of the easiest and painless ways to save gas.

Don't just cut the engine at the intersection - cut it as you are coasting to it. If you are going downhilll slightly, you can roll closer in heavy traffic.

I'm not sure if it's a good thing but I am becoming increasingly proactive about asking people to stop their idling engines.

For example, yesterday I was running errands and parked at one end of a large retail area and was hoofing it to the various stores I needed to hit. In the middle of the main parking lot I had to walk past a school bus that was apparently in town ferrying some High School baseball players to a game and had stopped to let them eat at a pizzeria.

The lady driving the bus was just sitting there with the side door and her window wide open, enjoying the beautiful evening, while her big diesel engine idled away, emitting visible black smoke at the tail pipe and smelling of sulfur. I went to her window and politely asked her to turn off the engine, then briefly mentioned that her bus emits 1 pound of harmful emissions for every minute it idles (I know, I know, it can be between 0.5 and 2 pounds per minute, but 1 pound is a good compromise for larger vehicles, 0.5 for passenger vehicles.

This morning I was taking our recyclable materials out to the large bins at work and up a small hill and diagonal to us was a big dump truck-type hauling vehicle with some contractor's logo on the side of it sitting there just idling with no one in it, smelling of sulfur even 20m away on this calm morning. I was so tempted to just climb up, reach in and turn it off, but there are certain liabilities to this.

I had time to finish dumping all of our recylables into the bins, walk the 100m back inside, sit down and type and print out a little note about harmful emissions, 0 MPG and "Keep Tahoe Blue", etc., walk back outside and up the hill, climb up and place it under the driver's windshield wiper, with the truck idling unattended the whole time.

About 20 minutes later I was taking our cardboard to the collection station and noticed the truck had moved about 50m down a driveway behind some industrial units. It was again unattended but my note was gone and the engine was off. :)

On my walk to lunch I needed to run an errand to the local Rat Shack to get a new battery for my garage door opener (it's kind of funny... I come in so fast on the FAS from the road to my subdivision that I need to be able to get the garage door open from a bit of distance, but the battery had depleted to the point that I was smacking the antenna on top of my Yaris on the bottom of the door as it opens). On my way in I passed an S10 Blazer that had a passenger but no driver, with the windows down and the engine idling.

I had time to walk the remaining 50m into the store, wait my turn for the clerk to get the batteries which are kept behind the counter, pay with my credit card and then walk back out to that vehicle, and it had been idling the whole time. I approached the passenger and asked him to turn it off, gave the short, succinct speech about 1 pound of harmful emissions every 2 minutes, etc. He immediately turned off the engine and thanked me for the information.


As I said I'm not sure if this is all a good thing. While I am definitely helping the Reno/Tahoe area a bit for each person I educate I wonder if I'm not becoming too meddlesome.

What are your thoughts?

Just a Though-for-You !!!!!

Don't get "Yourself" Hit in the Head or Shot over trying to do what you think is the (Right-Thing).

Everyone out there is not going to be as Nice as those few people. ;)

However it is up to you in the end if you are willing to take these chances with "Complete-Strangers".

I suggest Stopping while you are {AHEAD} !!!!!!!!

This advise is meant to maybe save you Harm or Worse when you approach the wrong person at the Wrong-Time and {THEY} have had a Very-Bad-Day !!!!!!!!

Terry (tiger)

I think it is great that you want everyone to save gas, and not emit the harmful greenhouse gases from their tailpipes. From my perspective,I would rather someone minded their own business than came over to give me some speech, I would probably be unreceptive. However, since I agree with this cause I think you are right, and it annoys me that people leave their cars idling, but I would probably be more annoyed by someone bothering me.

So my 2 cents is that you are going to have a bad experience if you continue trying to tell people what to do about idling and such. Most folks don't like to be bothered by strangers especially about something trivial like them sitting in their car with the a/c on while someone runs into a store. I am all for gas mileage for me, but I don't even try to tell friends and family how to drive, I let them know that there are ways for them to save gas, but if they aren't interested that is as far as I take it.

I'm the kind of person who would keep idling, etc. BECAUSE someone told me it's bad. I just leave people to their own devices. Idling's probably the least of a car's fuel usage or pollution problems anyway.

1Idling's probably the least of a car's fuel usage or pollution problems anyway.

At the same time, idling is the one time during engine operation where the fuel is put to precisely no use. Taking simple measures to avoid it such as walking in rather than driving through or not leaving an unattended vehicle running are also incredibly easy.

One of the things you learn once you really start keeping track of fuel economy is that every drop really does count. Granted we learn to find a balance somewhere short of driving ourselves mad to save every one (except a few dedicated individuals, of course ;) ) but it's very important to appreciate that the supposedly small stuff really does matter. Anybody with a ScanGauge or built in fuel consumption display gets this message really fast the first time they get stuck at a light and watch the trip average tick down rapidly. The impact was a big surprise to me, too.

I've been known to flyer (http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/freefuel.gif) idling cars with no occupant. Then
they have the option to get the message or not, and relative
anonymity is preserved.
.
_H*

At the same time, idling is the one time during engine operation where the fuel is put to precisely no use. Taking simple measures to avoid it such as walking in rather than driving through or not leaving an unattended vehicle running are also incredibly easy.

One of the things you learn once you really start keeping track of fuel economy is that every drop really does count. Granted we learn to find a balance somewhere short of driving ourselves mad to save every one (except a few dedicated individuals, of course ;) ) but it's very important to appreciate that the supposedly small stuff really does matter. Anybody with a ScanGauge or built in fuel consumption display gets this message really fast the first time they get stuck at a light and watch the trip average tick down rapidly. The impact was a big surprise to me, too.

Well, it's not that it doesn't make a difference...it's just that there's bigger differences to be made, especially for 0,2 gallons/hour. Me? Not worth it.

On a hot day last week I saw an unoccupied SUV idling outside the local food market withthe AC on and all the windows open about 4". You could see the condensate splashing downn under the thing. I couldn't figure out that one out.

Seems like leaving an unoccupied vehicle running would be a safety violation somehow.

The "green" angle is probably more likely to annoy people than the saving gas/money angle. Something like, "If everybody got 7% better gas mileage, we wouldn't be paying anywhere near $3.xx right now. Please help out by turning off your engine." hopefully wouldn't offend many.

On a hot day last week I saw an unoccupied SUV idling outside the local food market withthe AC on and all the windows open about 4". You could see the condensate splashing downn under the thing. I couldn't figure out that one out.

Seems like leaving an unoccupied vehicle running would be a safety violation somehow.

It is in many places. This website seems to address idling regulations in general.

http://www.epa.gov/smartway/idle-state.htm

As for having vehicles idling while unattended, I believe that is illegal in most of my area. It seems that the local news does a piece on this every winter when people start warming up their cars. They talk about the crackdown on "puffers". For example:
http://www.aurorasentinel.com/main.asp?SectionID=11&SubSectionID=11&ArticleID=14592&TM=7875.197

Their focus is never on preventing pollution or the wasting of gas.
The whole point of it is to reduce motor vehicle theft.

A local township enacted an anti-idling ordinance a couple years ago when an opportunistic 15 year old went for a joy ride and crashed into a patrol car.

Nobody in their right mind in LA would ever leave their vehicle running unattended in a public place, unless they wanted it stolen. But sitting in the car with the a/c on is pretty common. Maybe store owners can put signs in their parking lots to remind people how much gas they save by turning off their motors. But mostly I think people hate being preached to. They think, it’s my money and if I want to waste it on my comfort, who’s going to tell me different.

I recall back in the day riding in a convertible on a hot summer night, and we'd turn on the a/c through the floor vents and how heavenly that felt. Probably with the Moody Blues playing. Well it was a wonderful memory, but I wince now.

On very hot days I can at least see the logic, but why would a person leave the car running on a 65 degree day? My favorite example: Last fall, I biked to the bakery, and there was an unoccupied newer Volvo, engine running, across the sidewalk & blocking the bike rack (There is a curb cut, but no extra pavement. Front wheels were on grass). The closest legal parking spots were all empty (perhaps 40 feet away). I had a great desire to move the car to one of those spots, but no desire to be accused of theft!. Perhaps the owner left the car on to show that she was in a hurry, but does walking 40 feet take that long? Does turning the key take a lot of time? Does a car get uncomfortably hot or cold when it is 5 pm and 65 degrees?

On very hot days I can at least see the logic, but why would a person leave the car running on a 65 degree day? My favorite example: Last fall, I biked to the bakery, and there was an unoccupied newer Volvo, engine running, across the sidewalk & blocking the bike rack (There is a curb cut, but no extra pavement. Front wheels were on grass). The closest legal parking spots were all empty (perhaps 40 feet away). I had a great desire to move the car to one of those spots, but no desire to be accused of theft!. Perhaps the owner left the car on to show that she was in a hurry, but does walking 40 feet take that long? Does turning the key take a lot of time? Does a car get uncomfortably hot or cold when it is 5 pm and 65 degrees?

i see this every morning when i stop for coffee on the way to work, at least one idling vehicle. since i am becoming known as a regular there, i am considering asking the staff if they would consider a sign asking people to shut off their vehicles. some even let them run while filling, which is really stupid.

and i think i told the story already......i had gone to perkins for lunch, and there was an idling HUMMER (i kid you not) parked right by the door. it ran the entire time i was there. i really wanted to figure out who the owner was and say something, but i think they snuck out right before i left.

A couple years ago my wife and I were hiking in the mountains, when a Ferrari and a Porsche pulled up at the trailhead. Couple middle aged guys out tearing up the mountain roads with their trophy wives. Fine by me, but while the wives got out of the cars to chat with each other for a while, the Ferrari driver kept his engine running.

If you've ever stood next to an idling Ferrari, you know they are LOUD. As in you-need-to-yell-to-have-a-conversation loud. This was in a quiet mountain area, and we were trapped in this noisy situation because it takes a little while get our gear ready and hit the trail. After about 10 minutes of this my wife asked the Ferrari wife if she could get her husband to shut the car off. She said no, because "it's bad for the engine to shut it off and restart it." Now I've heard a lot of idiotic things in my life, but that's pretty near the top.

-----

Another idiotic vehicle idling situation: in Central Oregon, where the winters get cold enough to produce regular snow, most people leave their engines idling while filling up at the gas station. I grew up in MN, which gets hella colder, and I remember turning my engine off at gas stations even when it was 20 below out. Back then ('70s and '80s) I remember people making a big deal out of this as a safety issue. Now here in Oregon gas is full-service: you have to talk to an attendant to get your car filled, and you'd think they'd ask people to shut off their engines. But no. Every attendant I've ever asked about this says it's futile to even bother asking.

I would understand if there was a pet or an elderly person, say, in the car. Otoh, I don't trust anybody not even with a 96 Corolla with 100,000 miles on it. That right there would make me never idling and leaving the car. Now I am pretty aware of idling in general. But a couple years ago I would go thru the drive-in pharmacy, etc. etc. etc.

I think an awareness campaign might be more effective if it focused on saving gas money... Something like "Upset the Oil Companies-- Go inside-- don't idle".

I've left notes on windshields re: baby seats, etc. but i don't think I'd have the guts to approach some person.


--des

I really advocate talking to people indivdually before you lecture them.

I freely admit that sometimes I misbehave, but leaving the truck idling when I'm out drilling in the cold isn't one of the times. Leaving it idling to power the inverter that powers my instruments whose batteries don't last all day isn't one of the times either (my instruments have sealed specialty batteries) .

To be blunt, if you were self-righteous or left me a note in one of those situations I'm sure I'd be polite to your face and I might turn off the truck to get you to go away, but I would just treat it as another funny story to tell about thoughtless people who don't understand working outside.

On the upside, if you are polite I doubt that anybody will get rough with you.

I agree that people idle too much, but most of the people you are addressing are probably out there trying to serve others, understanding them better will help you convey your message.

I noticed yesterday. Alot of PII's and HCHII's setting idling in the parking lots we were in. Other than being hybrids the other thing in common was the drivers. All middle aged way over weight ladys. I mean the bigger around then tall types. Of course I parked and rolled down the windows as the wife took care of what she needed to.

psy

Now that I have found this new game err hobby err thing to do (hypermiling) :) it should be quite interesting come winter and snowplowing. With most plow lifts being electric, they are a huge drain on the battery and alternator, in addition to the fact that you are plowing at night with lights and maybe strobes or mars lights. You really really don't want to shut off the truck because the state of battery may be so close to dead that it won't start without a jump. But I am starting to think about some things I may be able to do to help out with fuel mileage and still keep moving quick enough to get stuff done within time limits.

I would like to mention the fact that some people have turbo timers on their vehicles. It allows a vehicle to idle for a preset amount of time so the oil can continue to circulate and cool down the turbo assembly before shutting off the engine ... this prolongs the life of the turbos which is very costly to replace if they overheat, deform/seize up. So on some occasions, it may be idling with out a driver for reliability issues, but, that is rare and should be no more than a couple minutes tops.

There is a law locally against leaving a car idling while going into the store or whatever ... and most follow it. I don't see as many people sitting in idling cars with the a/c as I did years ago either. Drive-throughs are not slowing down at all ... though if they ran as they are ideally suppose to, it wouldn't hurt as much as it does ... though rarely does a drive-through run at ideal efficiency.

I see no problem with going up to people if you have the right kind of personality to say the right thing to each person. Non-confrontational is the best ... though the individual may not care at all. I remember in my younger days I couldn't care much less about fuel mileage, idling, or driving efficiently until I got behind a 10 mpg car and fuel went over $1/gallon :eek: :p

I think if all auto-makers developed a system to keep a car off at lights like the Honda Hybrid ... it would make things a lot better, and people would probably think more and realize how much it wastes ... and be less likely to leave a car idling when they run into a store.

I think it would be even better if someone could figure out a way to make an 'auto-stop' after-market device that people could add to older vehicles ... though I suppose without an electric motor to get the block spinning again, it is impractical. I will make it clear why in a thread I will write soon ...

I commend you and anyone else who does the same on your efforts. You have my respect. I have commented to family and friends on the things learned here and try to be a positive influence to those around me ... a few think I am batty or a bit obsessed but they don't know the half since I don't talk about a lot of the acronyms I find here.

Keep fighting the good fight, hopefully with a pacifist attitude :thumbs_up:

Minding other people's business can be an unwanted and dangerous thing. Perhaps you have a habit that someone else thinks you need to change but have no interest in changing. How would you feel if someone came up to mind your businesss on a topic you were quite defensive about? They could be completely right and completely offensive. Unsolicited advice is not so righteous but often is self-righteous. Few can stand holier-than-though no matter how sweetly it's put.

Minding other people's business can be an unwanted and dangerous thing. Perhaps you have a habit that someone else thinks you need to change but have no interest in changing. How would you feel if someone came up to mind your businesss on a topic you were quite defensive about? They could be completely right and completely offensive. Unsolicited advice is not so righteous but often is self-righteous. Few can stand holier-than-though no matter how sweetly it's put.

I do not Post on this Forum very often but this calls for a comment from me.

Other members here would be wise to read your comments here so someone that is a "Complete-Stranger" and having a Very-Bad-Day does not try to Kill,Shoot and or Knife someone from walking up and telling them to shut their engine off. Mind your own Business and do as one likes but leave others to do as they wish even if one does not agree with the other persons choice.

Don't mess around with a STRANGER unless (YOU) are Very-Set for the (Consequences).

Think before you approach a (Stranger) !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take this Advice or Suffer-the-Consequences of your "Actions".

Its a tricky situation alright. I see silly behaviour like this all the time and from my experience, it is far better to do and say nothing. Perfectly sane looking people are liable to erupt in flames of anger and very soon you'll end up either in court or hospital! Of course, these very same people will be the first to complain about rising fuel/electricity prices. Even my wife gets worried when i shut down the engine at the lights and makes a point of telling me. I think the best way is to install, during manufacture, a start/stop system. I think i've said this before here but i think it's worth repeating. It's idiot proof and saves the end user having to do anything. Question is, how long before there are no cars without this system....

Sounds like you have been polite enough that people have listened to you. Keep in mind, there still are people who are uneducated as to how much gas/diesel a car consumes when left idling. People still think that cars use more gas being started, then being left idling. Updating people on the efficiency gains that cars have made could actually make someone's day. Said to the wrong person though, you may end up with a black eye. Key is to keep it informative, and polite.

I personally would not do it. My blood gets boiling when I see idiots sitting around idling and I know that I would just end up going off on them and we would both end up pissed. If you are more of a diplomat then me, then by all means continue to make the world a brighter place.

I personally think that laws are the best way to address this problem. We need to pressure our law-makers to make idling illegal. Drive throughs need to be eliminated as well. Not only do they waste fuel, but they promote sloth and contribute to obesity.

My wife and I own a small new age retail bussiness, we allow a small group of enviornmentally concious people to meet in our studio area, and we are happy to list their meeting in our monthly e-mailed news letter. The group is concerened with carbon emmisions.
I will be discussing this web site with them at thier next meeting.

Further more as our temperatures are dropping it won't be long before people start leaving the engine running when making short stops. I think I may put a sign on the door letting our patrons know "Your idling vehicle emits up to 2lbs of carbon per minute, It takes less than 10 seconds of fuel to restart your engine." something I learned form this site.

At a local event a woman had made up a huge cardboard tennis shoe, It's diminsions were equal to the carbon emitted by burning 1 gal of gas. The tennis shoe representing the carbon footprint. Very visual.

Thank you for taking an active part.

>Halfnutz

I personally think that laws are the best way to address this problem. We need to pressure our law-makers to make idling illegal. Drive throughs need to be eliminated as well. Not only do they waste fuel, but they promote sloth and contribute to obesity.

They are my thoughts too.
Wouldn't it be great to see no trucks idling in parking lots?
Wouldn't it be great to see drive throughs eliminated?
Will we ever see that day? I doubt it where I live.

Another spin on this .... Older cars, especially diesels, did have trouble with shutting off the engine for short periods of time. My old Willys, if hot, would never start back up if it was not allowed to cool. I upgraded a number of things on it to help, but the stuff I did was not typical. I think there may be some left over urban legend effect on some people who leave their vehicles idling. A better approach might be to determine if this is a reason. Maybe their dad told them they should always leave their engine idling because his old Ford needed that. Anything built past the 70s should not have a problem.

The diesels can be hit or miss. The turbos are an issue, but not as much as some think. The real problem comes from heat expansion and oil coking. On a diesel it is not uncommon for the turbo to spend considerable amount of time heat soaked upwards of 800 degrees, and spikes well over 1000 degrees. I make sure I do not shut mine off until the EGTs reach 400 degs. Unfortunately this is not a great way to ensure safe operations since the EGT probe is in the exhaust before the turbo and is not a great indicator of the turbo temp. Now having said that most modern turbos can handle the heat expansion, and good oil, especially synthetic, can handle the heat as well. Its just not as much of a problem as many think, and is again a left over from times past.

Big diesels on the other hand can have problems with this. Remember that heat is critical to the operation of a diesel, and cooling of the combustion chamber can dramatically increase emissions. Now if you are talking shutting it down for say 5-10 mins the effect is minimal, especially if it is not cold. The blocks on diesels are huge and hold a LOT of heat. Even my F350 will remain too hot to touch for hours after I shut it down. Now if it is cold, really cold, and the engine is let to sit for a while you may not get them to start. This is why most diesels that will operate in cold climates have glow plugs. But even with the glow plugs the colder temps in the combustion chamber can dramatically increase emissions.

Now there is another problem with diesels. Thats washing the cylinder walls. If you have ever seen a big rig idling at a rest stop you should have noticed that it has a raised idle, or a work truck or ambulance will have the same. At lower idle the combustion temp will lower to the point that it is not capable of completely burning all the fuel, this is the emissions increase I talk about. The big problem with this is that the unburnt fuel will wash the cylinder walls of oil lubrication and can seriously damage the engine. If you see a diesel, light duty or medium duty, idling at a low RPM you might want to use this as well. I will not let my truck idle for more than 5 minutes EVER. I have seen pictures of the damage caused by this in Powerstrokes and Cummins light duty diesels, is bad and adds up quickly. You could remind people doing this that a rebuild of a light duty diesel engine STARTS are $5000, and that assumes its possible to rebuild it. I priced a new engine for my truck, $10,000, for JUST THE ENGINE.


Hope this helps, information and knowledge can dramatically help in these situations. Just make sure you have the right approach.

Hi TheTonka:

___Anyone purchasing an International, Cummins or Duramax for a light duty diesel (F350’s are light duty too) for fuel efficiency are 90% of the time out of their minds for what most are used for. The small Euro diesels that do receive an honest 70 + mpg in small sedans and hatches for < a $1.5K premium are one thing but the huge $5K + markups and HP games the Big 2.5 have thrown at the diesel trucks has ruined any chance of a light duty truck purchase or decent FE by the average Joe Q. This does not include the rare 1% that actually tows horse trailers or small car haulers and such across the country. 17 - 22 mpg for running across the country w/ a small load is ridiculous unless there is one heck of a serious reason for doing it.

___About idling … Fortunately, the small Euro diesels were designed with anti-idling in mind. Shut them down when they are sitting and they can do this for hundreds of thousands of accumulated miles. As for an F-350 or Cummins equipped Dodge idling away in a Walmart, Starbucks or a McDonald’s parking lot, what is it doing in those parking lots in the first place?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I agree with you on most people, especially the idiots who commute with these trucks(which I used to be guilty of). However the light duty trucks with the diesels get better mileage than their gas counterparts, and produce less emissions. I have friends that have half ton trucks with gas engines and friends with 3/4 and 1 ton trucks with gas and diesel engines. The diesels get better mileage, I have never been convinced that it was worth the premium, but then I bought my truck used.

But thats a rant, and I know one that is not very popular here. These trucks have a purpose, and I agree MOST of the people driving them do so for the wrong reasons. I live in the middle of it. Riverside County is the dirtbike capital of the world. There are no less than 30 light duty trucks or SUVs(including several H2s) in my neighborhood. Of all them only 5 actually get used for for something that actually requires a full size light duty truck.

I have read the stories in this thread of what people have seen. Things are far worse down here in SoCal than almost anywhere else in the country. At least if you go to the mid west, or even central and northern California, you will run into people who actually use their trucks as trucks, and need them. EVERYDAY I spend time on the side streets and highways with HUNDREDS of SUVs and pickups, most of them lifted. You can tell they have no need for a truck that size, or a lift. The vast majority of them have NEVER seen 4WD, dirt or a load. It's sad.

I posted the information I did hoping it could be used to help with the OP evangelism. I fully support what he is doing and applaud him for doing it. I am too much of a chicken $$$$ to do it myself, perhaps due to the type of people down here that do that. Manipulating the idiot with the diesel truck or SUV into thinking idling is not only bad for the environment but also bad for his "baby" is going to be far more effective.


Just my $.02, and BTW when my truck is in the parking lot(or drive thru) its because I need something that won't fit on the motorcycle, and the wife is using her car. I can park my monster safely in most parking lots, and I can get it safely thru most drive thrus, but I know I am an exception.


As an aside I have been talking on a diesel site with a guy who is looking into building an S-10 pickup with a diesel, I have suggested the 4BT cummins. With the mods he wants to do and the gearing he is looking at he figures he should be able to get 50MPG+. This is from a guy who gets 26MPG from a diesel F350. I keep dreaming about a small diesel powered Rat Rod, cheap aerodynamic, reliable, fuel efficient, and different.

Hi TheTonka:

___A bit OT but about the guy looking to do the diesel conversion … An S-10 at 50 mpg might be nice but the Ranger has done over a tank a few times and cost brand new less then $9,700 back in 03? A diesel with the best emissions controls available can only match the base LEV-2 which everything else meets including P/U trucks.

___Idling and noise = bad, silence and ICE-Off = good :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

True, but he has a lead on an S10 for $500, a 4BT for $1000, and can do all the work himself. He figures he would have less than $5K in the truck. Plus he is a big WVO/bio proponent and is putting together a reactor.

Idling unnecessarily is a bad thing!

You guys aren't getting this. Diesel engines NEED to be idling. Yea yea, bad for the environment...do you know, it causes more damage, uses more fuel, and produces more emissions to start a diesel then to leave it idling for 5 minutes?

Let alone the fact that if it's cold, it may not even start!

Hi Dan:

___Let’s temper our enthusiasm a bit. We are not speaking of just cold starts but warmed up as well. If you want to lower CO2, less fuel needs to be consumed and even a diesel is burning fuel during idle needlessly. If you want to see the latest in Diesel hybrids, begin your search in Europe as that is where they already are with the older Start-Stop Lupo all the way to the latest 2-Mode MB 400.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

You guys aren't getting this. Diesel engines NEED to be idling. Yea yea, bad for the environment...do you know, it causes more damage, uses more fuel, and produces more emissions to start a diesel then to leave it idling for 5 minutes?

Let alone the fact that if it's cold, it may not even start!

That is not entirely true. Like I said older diesel required this, but a diesel at normal idle can and will drop the combustion chamber temperature to a level where there is incomplete combustion and the extra fuel will wash the cylinder walls. This reduction in lubrication can seriously damage the engine. The only way to avoid this is to have a high idle option like Ford AIC(Automatic Idle Control).

Like I said, many people IMHO hold on to the idling idea from information in the past that is no longer valid. Just like warming up a gas powered car. It used to be damaging to an engine, no longer so. With electronic fuel injection and ignition modern cars no longer suffer from the same problems cars of the past did with carburetors.

Hi Dan:

___Let’s temper our enthusiasm a bit. We are not speaking of just cold starts but warmed up as well. If you want to lower CO2, less fuel needs to be consumed and even a diesel is burning fuel during idle needlessly. If you want to see the latest in Diesel hybrids, begin your search in Europe as that is where they already are with the older Start-Stop Lupo all the way to the latest 2-Mode MB 400.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

CO2 is irrelevant, since humans produce far more CO2 than vehicles.

CO2 is irrelevant, since humans produce far more CO2 than vehicles.

If that was meant as a joke please use emotes to make that clear, at least until we get to know you better.

If you were serious then...

While you're right that the total vehicle fleet emits less CO2 than the breathing of the entire world's population (6bil kg/day from people vs. 5.2bil kg/day from vehicles) this by no means designates the CO2 output of vehicles as irrelevant. Just 600mil vehicles are producing nearly the same amount of CO2 from driving 20 miles per day that 6bil people do via breathing (that's a 10:1 ratio, people:cars). Additionally, we have no control over how much CO2 we exhale but we can certainly control how much additional CO2 we generate via transportation, power and heat generation, food production and manufacturing.

CO2 is not "irrelevant" from any source or in any amount.

Hassling idlers is probably worthwhile, but keep in mind there are some REALLY unstable people out there. Jerking their chain may not be conducive to long life.

we greatly saw a fuel savings when they instuted cut offs in the idle when the parking brake is on you got 1-2 min before it shuts down this of course is a huge savings if your in a fleet of rigs I have my guesses on the numbers but dont have any concrete

I know in TN, idling any vehicle in a state park is illegal. Chances are it's the same in national parks.

And there is a slight problem with anti-idling laws... the people who would enforce it are the worst offenders. Police cars run almost 24/7.