Archives

My 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid has been having a lot of recals lately, and started with the backup starter a few times. Today the IMA light came on for the first time.

It's still driving like it was before.. I'm getting assist bars and even auto stop.

It's got 108,000 on it and I live in Illinois so no nifty 150k warranty for me. I've gotten several letters about various lawsuits going on against Honda and would I like to jump on that bandwagon or receive a small cash settlement.

I guess my question is.. is there any chance of Honda replacing this battery or am I just screwed here? I still owe $8000 on the car, and I can't imagine someone giving me that much for it with the light on.

.. so bummed. This was my dream car.

It isn't unheard of to get the battery replaced by the dealer under warranty (see this (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showpost.php?p=257250&postcount=12) post) but you are out of the warranty period. You could always pay for a new battery out of pocket if they determine you need one.

Before that though, have you made sure your 12V battery is in good shape? A weak 12V can cause all sorts of strange behavior in those vehicles, up to and including an IMA light. It is worth checking to be sure that one is okay.

I would also contact hunter44102 about his experiences listed here: DIY battery change success (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41066) -- the two of you are close enough geographically it is conceivable that you could get together for some hands on work, as well (if he's willing, of course).

Good luck and keep us posted!!

Ouch. I don't have anything that will help you, but I would like to wish you good luck and keep us posted!

Well, a quick search on car-part.com found a battery (in Chicago) with less than 60,000 miles on it (That's what they define grade "A" as) for $367.50. If you're willing to get your hands dirty, you can replace the battery affordably.

http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?userSearch=int&userPID=1000&userLocation=USA&userIMS=&userInterchange=%3E%3E%40&userSide=&userDate=2006&userDate2=2006&dbModel=30.6.1.1&userModel=Honda%20Civic&dbPart=600.1&userPart=Battery&sessionID=600000000000000000020868965&userPreference=zip&userZip=61704&userLat=40.4795&userLong=-88.986&userIntSelect=237447&userUID=0&userBroker=&userPage=1&iKey=
2007
Battery
Honda Civic (HYBRID BATTERY PKG) A 1L3558 $367.5 Bionic Auto Parts - PRP Midwest USA-IL(Chicago) Request_Quote 877-445-1520 Request_Insurance_Quote

Well, a quick search on car-part.com found a battery (in Chicago) with less than 60,000 miles on it (That's what they define grade "A" as) for $367.50. If you're willing to get your hands dirty, you can replace the battery affordably.

http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?userSearch=int&userPID=1000&userLocation=USA&userIMS=&userInterchange=%3E%3E%40&userSide=&userDate=2006&userDate2=2006&dbModel=30.6.1.1&userModel=Honda%20Civic&dbPart=600.1&userPart=Battery&sessionID=600000000000000000020868965&userPreference=zip&userZip=61704&userLat=40.4795&userLong=-88.986&userIntSelect=237447&userUID=0&userBroker=&userPage=1&iKey=

I certainly wouldn't mind doing it myself. I'm a bit worried I'd screw it up worse than it is, but it's worth a shot. $367.50 sounds awfully cheap, that would be pretty nice if I could get that and get it installed.

I was looking here: http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/

And they were a little over $2000 does anyone know anything about that company?

Though I haven't even tested the 12v battery yet, so I guess I may be jumping ahead of myself a bit.

I certainly wouldn't mind doing it myself. I'm a bit worried I'd screw it up worse than it is, but it's worth a shot. $367.50 sounds awfully cheap, that would be pretty nice if I could get that and get it installed.

I was looking here: http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/

And they were a little over $2000 does anyone know anything about that company?

Though I haven't even tested the 12v battery yet, so I guess I may be jumping ahead of myself a bit.

Well worth every penny from what I've heard from the people who have bought them. They actually have more capacity and better charge/discharge rates than stock, which is where the name BatterBattery came from. I wouldn't hesitate to get one if I ever need to replace my pack in my Insight. Hopefully that's quite a ways in the future as my IMA battery was replaced March '10 just a couple of months before I bought the car.

I just replaced the 12V on my Escape. I think it was just starting to go. The "eye" on the battery was red, and after it was load tested it came up as "Good battery, low charge" I figured it should not have a "low charge" after I had just driven it about 60 miles earlier that day, so I just replaced it. Its worth it to just go to your local parts store, and ask them to load test it for you, and if the 12V is more than 3 years old, and it doesn't test perfect, just replace it. If you still have problems then look at replacing the hybrid pack.

Ok, I went to Autozone and the 12v battery tested ok. The code scanner brought back a P0A7F code for "Hybrid Battery Deterioration".

So crap.

I'm cautious about buying the used battery pack with 60,000 miles on it that Escape helpfully linked to.. because sometimes they fail at 60k miles too. But it's also 6 or 7 times cheaper than buying new, so that's still enticing and may be something I ultimately pursue.

However, I think I'm leaning towards going with a new pack and installing it myself. Luckily my tax returns are coming back this week so it couldn't have happened at a better time.

Are there any other opinions of where to get a new pack besides http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/ ?

Hrm. My local Honda dealer says battery replacement is about $2400.

To get the new pack and install it myself is $2275.

The performance on the newer pack would probably be better, but if I screw something up, I'm .. well, screwed. If Honda screws it up, at least I'll have a shot of them fixing it this time. Plus if it's done at the dealer, then the carfax report will show a new pack installed when I go to sell it. :)

... still thinking. Out loud. :)

If you're truly talking only $125 more for a dealer install (vs DIY) ... that's a no brainer in my book.

Even more true if you're not comfortable working with electrical or understand the dangers of high voltage -- not to mention warranty complications.

------

On the used pack ... If you could get somehow comfortable with some assurance that the used pack is good (probably would depend on the seller's knowledge and the "feeling" you got) AND you can do the install safely. ...

I'd be tempted to roll the bones for $370. Even if you only got another 2 or 3 years out of the used pack .. it was probably worth it.

/just my .02
// ... also, surely there is a civic hybrid forum of some sorts with more detail on this subject (?). If nothing else, insightcentral.net has similar info.

What did their 12V test involve? The typical problem with 12V testing is if they just checked the charged voltage, but the big problem for hybrids with failing batteries is loss of charge.

Is there a diagnostic check you can do on the 12V through the car itself? (I know you can on the Prius).

They hooked up a tester to the battery that had a digital readout on it. I didn't look over the guy's shoulder though to see what exactly it was telling him. He asked me rev the engine up to 2000 RPM then let off.. then I turned the heat on full blast and revved it up again to 2000 and let off. Then he said it looked like the battery was working fine but needed to be charged.

My battery terminal cable was a little loose, so I chalked it up to not charging properly.

Yesterday the IMA light and engine light were both on, then just the engine light later in the day and this morning, then this afternoon the engine light went away.

I'm assuming the code reader telling me the hybrid battery was the issue would supersede any misreads that might have had in telling me the 12v was ok.. but then I'm just pitting code scanners against each other. :)

The more I think about it, the more I think I just want to get the cheapest used IMA battery that I can find, install it, and then sell my car and start leasing the damn things. Then at least it would be their problem when big stuff like this fails.

If he said the 12v. needed charged, I would be suspect. Also, revving the motor is not turning an alternator. The BCM controls the charge and if your car had just been driven to the shop, the battery should have been at a normal level.

You need the code read with an OBD II reader. A Scangauge will do it, or you can go to an AutoZone or similiar and they will read it for free. Get the code number because their description of the code will not be correct. A bad battery will show something like a p1449.

Quite a bit of evidence that the Honda Hybrid (IMA) batteries can't make it more than about 8 years.

Makes a good case for the Civic Hf. Your typical driver will average high 30's in the Hf, whereas in a Honda Hybrid it's mid 40's. If you have to allocate an extra $300 or so per year for the battery fund, ... you'll never save that much in gas(depending on driving patterns) with the Hybrid. And that's before we even start talking initial purchase price.

10 years + in hybrid development -- It's disappointing that Honda hasn't worked these battery issues out by now. (i.e. Toyota and Ford batteries seem to be going the distance.)

Even Hyundai offers a 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty on their battery pack. Ford tested the components of some retired Escape Hybrid taxi's with over 300,000 miles on them, and found that the batteries still had 80% of the original capacity. Honda is really behind the curve. A friend of mine was considering a HCH a few months ago, I'm kind of glad that she didn't get it now.

Until Honda starts using the cells like Toyota uses, they will keep having problems. You rarely ever hear of a Prius pack dieing and some of them go 300K-400K+ miles.

The more I think about it, the more I think I just want to get the cheapest used IMA battery that I can find, install it, and then sell my car and start leasing the damn things. Then at least it would be their problem when big stuff like this fails.

Wait until summer to sell, when gas hits $4+ :bananalama:

Does anyone have a link to step by step instructions on replacing the battery yourself? I remember seeing some on this very forum once upon a time, but now I can't find them. A video would be great, but even just some pictures of the process would make me feel better about doing it myself.

I've worked on cars in the past and I've read that this isn't that big of a deal to do, but the warning posts of "this has enough voltage to kill you" kind of make me want to not mess with it without some detailed instructions. :)

Also, if you get a battery from the junkyard that's been sitting, wouldn't you have to recharge or recondition the cells before you put it in the car? If I'm going to have to build a cell charger anyway, I might be better off trying to test and charge each of my current cells and possibly replace any bad ones, wouldn't I?

... luckily I bought an old Toyota pickup as a spare vehicle on the same day (coincidentally) that I got the IMA light. So I have something to drive while the HCH is torn apart if that's the route I decide to take.

I thought the Honda system has a 12V starter that can be used to start the vehicle if the IMA battery is low, if that's the case, can't you just trickle charge the 12V battery, then start the car & go on a long drive to charge & condition the battery?

Does anyone have a link to step by step instructions on replacing the battery yourself? I remember seeing some on this very forum once upon a time, but now I can't find them. A video would be great, but even just some pictures of the process would make me feel better about doing it myself.

I've worked on cars in the past and I've read that this isn't that big of a deal to do, but the warning posts of "this has enough voltage to kill you" kind of make me want to not mess with it without some detailed instructions. :)

Also, if you get a battery from the junkyard that's been sitting, wouldn't you have to recharge or recondition the cells before you put it in the car? If I'm going to have to build a cell charger anyway, I might be better off trying to test and charge each of my current cells and possibly replace any bad ones, wouldn't I?

... luckily I bought an old Toyota pickup as a spare vehicle on the same day (coincidentally) that I got the IMA light. So I have something to drive while the HCH is torn apart if that's the route I decide to take.

It is not dangerous as long as you turn off the breaker switch and let it set for about 15 minutes. It needs the 15 minutes to insure that the capacitors fully discharge. After that, it's just a matter of undoing the mounting hardware and disconnecting any wires going to the battery itself. You will probably want to get some help lifting the battery out as it weighs around 60-70 pounds or so. And yes, it would be a good idea to charge any new pack before using it or you could risk a cell reversal if any of the cells had discharged too low; that would be bad and would spell the end of the new pack.

I thought the Honda system has a 12V starter that can be used to start the vehicle if the IMA battery is low, if that's the case, can't you just trickle charge the 12V battery, then start the car & go on a long drive to charge & condition the battery?

It does have a 12V starter but it's default method for starting is to use the IMA battery. The 12V is only used under certain conditions such as extreme cold or when there is a fault in the IMA system.

I don't know if the directions are exactly the same for the second generation Civic Hybrid, but I think they are very very close to what is shown at the link below:

http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/hch/removal/reminst.html

Again, reference hunter44102 as he has already done this.

As for charging and balancing, YES. A battery sitting for a long time won't be damaged -- it is the spike in current (caused by an IMA start) and resultant further drop in voltage that can do the pack in because it can cause cell reversal (which means irrecoverable damage to that cell and possibly others around it). A simple 350mA charger would do the trick but you'd have to be sure you attach to the correct parts of the battery to do it, and that the max voltage is set properly so you don't damage the battery. Basic plans for such a charger can be found here (though the PDF seems to be AWOL at the moment): http://99mpg.com/projectcars/mimapackwhack/

hunter44102 has probably done this as well. Or you could buy a charger from Mike Dabrowski (that's his site in the link above) with a lot more safeties and automation to do the job for you.

As for rebuilding your current pack, that's a lot harder than it might seem. You'd need to match up not only good cells, but cells of very similar capacity to avoid future issues. This is not a simple job at all and is best left to people with lots of time and the correct equipment.

Something else I was reminded of that could help ease tensions was, when everything is properly turned off, the relays inside the battery physically disconnect the pathway for the electricity. So as long as you don't open up the metal case that the sticks are in, you will be safe.

As for charging and balancing, YES. A battery sitting for a long time won't be damaged -- it is the spike in current (caused by an IMA start) and resultant further drop in voltage that can do the pack in because it can cause cell reversal (which means irrecoverable damage to that cell and possibly others around it). A simple 350mA charger would do the trick but you'd have to be sure you attach to the correct parts of the battery to do it, and that the max voltage is set properly so you don't damage the battery. Basic plans for such a charger can be found here (though the PDF seems to be AWOL at the moment): http://99mpg.com/projectcars/mimapackwhack/


Based on the website and the pictures, it looks like the charging process is way more involved than I think I can do. I've done engine work and body work but not electrical work before.. and I'm not so sure about pulling out individual cells and charging them on Mike's charger.

I guess I'll be getting it done at the stealership like a wimp. :)

The charging I linked to is actually done with the pack intact and still installed in the vehicle -- I have such a charger on my own Insight.

There is nothing wrong with getting it done at the dealership though -- admitting inexperience doesn't mean you are wimp. Not by a long shot!

The charging I linked to is actually done with the pack intact and still installed in the vehicle -- I have such a charger on my own Insight.

There is nothing wrong with getting it done at the dealership though -- admitting inexperience doesn't mean you are wimp. Not by a long shot!

Oops, I didn't look at the right thing I don't think. The MIMA pack write up has a whole bunch of pictures that did not look easy. The grid charger write up on his site sounded much easier and just plugs in as you mentioned. Unfortunately he has none for sale right now. The website says he'll build more when he gets 30 people to deposit money, but he's only got 6 people right now. :(

Perhaps some kind soul would loan me one for long enough to balance my battery and see if that's all it needed? :)

Contact Mike Dabrowski directly -- he has a loaner charger for such a purpose.