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View Full Version : Engineers Work on Fuel Efficient Large Cars.


xcel
04-17-2007, 03:20 AM
Toyota Exec: Engineers Working on Efficient Large Cars. (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070416/toyota_future_cars.html?.v=1)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2007_Toyota_Avalon.jpgTom Krisher - AP - April 16, 2007

The largest car currently in Toyota’s fleet is the 2007 Toyota Avalon with an EPA rated 22/31 city/highway. Could a future advanced hybridization yield a Camry Hybrid like 40/38 city/highway?

DETROIT -- Automotive engineers will be under great pressure in the near future to come up with ways to make large cars more fuel efficient for the North American market, according to a top Toyota official.

David Baxter, senior executive administrator at the Toyota Technical Center in Ann Arbor, said Monday that North American consumers prefer larger vehicles, and it's up to engineers to figure out how to satisfy their wants with new technologies.

"Especially in North America, people like the size of their vehicles, and there's going to be a lot of pressure to maintain the size for safety and improve fuel economy," Baxter said in an interview at the Society of Automotive Engineers annual convention in downtown Detroit.

He predicted that consumers likely will switch buying habits in the next decade to vehicles that get better gas mileage and have more safety features.

"But that doesn't necessarily mean they're all going to be hybrids or all small cars, either," he said.

Toyota Motor Corp. has been experiencing double-digit monthly sales increases at a time when sales are flat or dropping for most U.S.-based automakers. The increases are due largely to its Corolla and Camry models, which are perceived by many as more fuel efficient than models made by the Detroit Three.

Baxter said the engineers attending the convention this week from car manufacturers and parts suppliers face a serious challenge to get more mileage with larger cars such as Toyota's Avalon, which was designed at Baxter's technical center in Michigan.

Toyota recently introduced a hybrid gasoline-electric powered mid-sized Camry that gets an estimated 40 miles per gallon in city driving, but Baxter would not say whether a hybrid Avalon is in the offing.

"It's likely there will be more hybrid vehicles or more hybrid powertrains available in our models in the future," he said … http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070416/toyota_future_cars.html?.v=1

AshenGrey
04-17-2007, 05:25 AM
Does the Hybrid Synergy Drive scale well to big vehicles? The Prius got a bigger increase over the Echo than the hybrid Camry did over the i4 Camry.

Chuck
04-17-2007, 07:22 AM
msantos might know more, but it seemed he once said Honda's IMA system was targeted for small vehicles and would not work well on large ones.

noflash
04-17-2007, 08:52 AM
Honda has decided IMA works best on smaller cars -- Civic, dedicated small hybrid, small hybrid sports car. They will use diesel for larger cars -- Accord, Odyssey, Pilot.

BailOut
04-17-2007, 09:23 AM
Here we go again with America's nonsensical addiction to over-sized vehicles.

Rather than re-engineering the American mind to work with appropriately-sized vehicles it looks like we'll pump wasted billions into engineering to accommodate land yachts.

xcel
04-17-2007, 09:51 AM
Hi Bailout:

___If American’s have the spare $’s, they will pick the larger automobile almost each and every time unfortunately for us all :(

___My take. If Toyota can make the TCH more fuel efficient then their smallest North American purchasable vehicles (Yaris and Corolla), what can the Avalon be taken too?

___I looked up the weight of the Camry XLE and the Avalon XLE to compare weights and here is what was shown.

Camry XLE: 3373 #’s
Avalon XLS: 3560 #’s

___I do not see a problem in adding the TCH’s modded I4 and HSD to the Avalon given it is just 187 #’s heavier? This combination would still beat every other non-hybrid Toyota sells let alone everything everybody else sells other then Honda’s HCH-II in fact! 300 + #’s might be a problem as the EPA’s treadmill calc’s start to hurt but not < 200 I would think? Even though the Avalon has a slightly larger frontal area then the TCH, I am sure that can be overcome. The Lexus LS’ Cd is the same as the Insight and I am sure Toyota could apply the same aerodynamic detail minus the lowering air suspension to the Avalon to achieve a similar aero drag … Food for thought.

___In terms of Honda, they don’t offer anything today but we have all speculated on the upcoming 2.2L iCDTi in the Civic/Accord and the yet to be announced 3.0 for the Accord, all Acura’s from the TL on up as well as Honda’s Minivans and Trucks. IMA does not scale very well although Leanburn whether from an oil burner or past 1.0, 1.3 or 1.7L gas only designs sure does ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

BailOut
04-17-2007, 11:40 AM
Wayne,

Granted we don't have any TCH drivers actively logging (the most recent was last December) but according to the mileage logs we do have the TCH does not beat the Yaris on MPG. That data set may change with more input but looking at the individual tanks of the top 3 TCH drivers vs. the top 3 Yaris drivers makes me think not.

It doesn't really matter to me, though. I guess what I was trying to get at is that while it's certainly a step in the right direction I'm not content with hypermiling for 50 or 60 MPG. I'd be much happier if my vehicle got 120 MPG on biofuel all by itself (after I run the batteries dry) and I could hypermile it for 200+.

That's never going to happen - even with PHEVFs - if the average vehicle's size and weight doesn't shrink by *at least* half.

Looking around every day I can see that even the true utility vehicles here in America are totally over-sized. It does not take an 18-ton truck to dig a hole for a telephone pole; the Japanese do it with a vehicle that weighs less than 3 tons. It does not take a V10 F350 to do "hot shot" hauls in most areas; my buddy back in Corpus Christi did it with a reinforced V6 Tacoma just fine (it was a hoot to see 3 18" diameter, 1" thick, 40 foot long steel pipes behind a Tacoma - hehe).

You see the same thing in just about any motorized vehicle in America. Our boats are usually much bigger than needed, our personal watercraft have doubled in size over the last decade, I personally know two people whose modern motorcycles each weigh more than my Yaris does, etc. Even the Chevy minivan has grown from a wheelbase of 111" to 121" in the last 10 years and is based on a truck frame (as evidenced by the 5,000 pound towing capacity of the Uplander).

We have this morbid fascination with big things and it's not sustainable.

xcel
04-17-2007, 12:27 PM
Hi Brian:

___It is not really about who is on top but what the average driver receives. As an example, most Accord drivers (I4/V6 EPA 24/34 - 20/29) pull down a 24 - 25 lmpg at best from my reads at DriveAccrd.net. MDX’ers (EPA 17/23) pull in the 15 - 17 lmpg range. I am sure the Yaris drivers are more then likely pulling 30 - 32 real world and I suspect the TCH to pull a tad better then that in the real world as well.

___My first time behind the wheel of a dead cold TCH w/ 5 in the car should give you an idea and I have heard of but not substantiated some 70’s and 80’s being pulled from them?

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/511/Resize_of_100_0321.JPG

___What I see is not a complete downsizing of America but a far more fuel efficient America until BEV’s completely take over the landscape. We would all like to see smaller and far lighter vehicles become the standard but it is not happening here in the US even with gasoline at $3.00 +. There are a ton of hybrid and small car converts but there are far more purchasing Ford F-150’s and Silverado’s today then all the Camry’s, Corolla’s, and Camry’s combined!

___About larger PHEV’s … These are even more effective on the plug as the efficiency and torque from a stop of an all-electric drivetrain can get these beasts moving using far less energy then a std. ICE doing the same. Once up to speed, a monster like our MDX uses barely 30 - 35 HP to move it along at 60 mph and an all-electric drivetrain can supply that minimum 30 - 35 HP while using a minimal amount of current vs. the 265 HP ICE at a very low load throwing it away as fast as humanly possible :angry:

___I would hope lighter and smaller vehicles would take over but here we are into our 4th year of $2.00 - $3.00 + per gallon and the results are not promising :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne



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