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View Full Version : In quest for better battery, keep an eye on Nationalism.


xcel
04-13-2007, 09:58 PM
While blessed with strong private backing and the benefit of Prof. Chiang's technology, A123 Chief Executive David Vieau believes the company couldn't have accomplished the progress it has made without financial assistance from the U.S. government. (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117642662763068592-q3NFhLFtHQ9GjaxgHVgsNyTK2P4_20070513.html?mod=tff_article)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/A123_Systems_Prius_II.jpgNorihiko Shirouzu - Wall Street Journal - April 13, 2007

In 2005, General Motors (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=gm) Corp. executives -- blue over their company's less-than-green reputation and envious of eco-darling Toyota Prius -- began searching the world for advanced batteries they hoped would power a new generation of gas-electric hybrid cars.

Most roads led them to Japan, the leader in battery technology and Toyota Motor (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=tm) Corp.'s home turf. Several GM engineers and executives describe their experience at Panasonic EV Energy Co. Ltd., one of the top makers of hybrid-car batteries, as typical of the reception they received there: When GM team members asked for detailed information about the company's most sophisticated automotive lithium-ion batteries, Panasonic EV refused.

A Panasonic EV spokesman says that as a matter of company policy it only discloses that kind of information to its parent company, Toyota.

The car business may have gone global, but the rush to develop new technology to reliably and inexpensively electrify 21st-century cars has rekindled some 20th-century-style economic nationalism. Facing growing pressure to curtail greenhouse-gas emissions, U.S. auto makers are increasingly worried that the critical battery technology they'll need to compete is getting locked up by Japanese rivals who moved more quickly to develop gas-electric hybrid vehicles.

"It's important to have the knowledge base on advanced automotive battery technology and manufacturing capacity right here locally in the U.S." says Beth Lowery, GM vice president of Environment and Energy.

So now, GM, which sells more than half its vehicles outside the U.S. and has an aggressive strategy to shift more purchasing and engineering to Asia, is talking up the importance of an American solution to the problem of building longer-lasting, more-reliable, less-costly automotive batteries, and looking for help from the federal government to subsidize those efforts.

One beneficiary of this battery war is a small Watertown, Mass., start-up called A123 Systems, which has developed a small pack of lithium-ion batteries that can be retrofitted into the spare-tire well of a Toyota Prius. The batteries turn the Prius into a "plug-in hybrid," which can be recharged through an electrical outlet and run almost exclusively on electricity in the first 40 miles of driving. During a test drive around Watertown, near Boston, there is nothing noticeably different about how the converted black Prius drives, except for a screen in the center of the car's dashboard that flashes its eye-popping fuel economy, sometimes 100 miles to the gallon and at other points 150 miles to the gallon.

This is the kind of technology GM wants to use, to develop, among other future vehicles, a Saturn Vue Green Line plug-in hybrid SUV and a real-world version of the Chevrolet Volt show car the company has been promoting to demonstrate its seriousness about clean technology.

Nearly all hybrid vehicles sold today, including the Toyota Prius, are equipped with a less sophisticated kind of technology, nickel metal hydride batteries. But these batteries and the accompanying technology are heavy and expensive -- adding $2,000 or more to the cost of a car. Moreover, nickel metal hydride battery systems can't power the car very far on electricity alone, which means the fuel savings are relatively modest, especially if the car is driven mainly at highway speeds.

Auto makers are looking to lithium-ion batteries to take hybrid vehicles to the next level by allowing them to be recharged from the electrical grid, theoretically reducing total carbon emissions. The batteries would be able to pack more electricity in the same space and weight as the current generation, enabling them to power the vehicle for longer distances on electricity alone.

Toyota, considered the industry's hybrid leader, is looking to adopt lithium-ion technology in the redesigned Prius, due to be launched as early as the second half of 2008. Rivals, from GM to Honda Motor (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=HMC) Co. to Ford Motor (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=F) Co. to DaimlerChrysler (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=dcx) AG, are fighting to match Toyota and are expected to come out with their own lithium-ion hybrids by the end of the decade.

As with many other technology wars -- from computer operating systems to video recorders to music players -- each of the combatants wants to be the winner that sets the industry standard, giving it an edge as the market moves from old technology to new. The key will be finding the chemical recipe that makes lithium-ion technology safe, durable and reliable enough to power cars under a wide range of road and temperature conditions without breaking down.

[Read More (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB117642662763068592-q3NFhLFtHQ9GjaxgHVgsNyTK2P4_20070513.html?mod=tff_article)] …

psyshack
04-13-2007, 10:11 PM
whoops wrong thread,,, sorry

c0da
04-14-2007, 08:22 AM
So panasonic basically gave GM the finger when they asked about batteries. Then there's small companies here in America already making batteries and modifications to cars to achieve 100mpg.

I just don't understand it.

Alexstarfire
04-14-2007, 09:44 AM
Me either, but I do believe that I read an article stating that using coal power is 4 times worse than using gas power. The article also stated that 30% of the power in the US comes from coal. Just thinking about that for a minute would show that making a plug-in hybrid would be far worse for the environment than a gas engine.

If that's the case with the coal power then how in the hell would plug-in hybrids help the environment.

c0da
04-14-2007, 10:04 AM
Well, maybe after the gov. is done focusing on cars they can focus on coal plants to make them more efficient or move to nuclear/solar/wind power. With China about to purchase a few million cars soon the future looks bleak.

tarabell
04-14-2007, 11:58 AM
Me either, but I do believe that I read an article stating that using coal power is 4 times worse than using gas power. The article also stated that 30% of the power in the US comes from coal. Just thinking about that for a minute would show that making a plug-in hybrid would be far worse for the environment than a gas engine.

If that's the case with the coal power then how in the hell would plug-in hybrids help the environment.

I'd like to help with this issue if I may. There are several reasons why a PHEV using grid power is much less polluting than a gasoline car, even in areas that are highly dependent on coal for power.

First, don’t assume you’re just replacing the energy content of gas with the same amount of electricity. There's a huge difference. Burning gas to move a car is incredibly wasteful of oil-derived energy—it’s like burning dollar bills in your fireplace to heat your home. By converting to an electric mode of transportation you gain huge efficiencies. Also, battery and electric motor efficiency itself is very high.

Pollution control at a power plant is far easier and more efficient than in a car, and it's much easier to maintain. As a car’s engine and pollution control equipment age, most gas cars eventually become gross polluters towards the end of their life. You can still see older cars on the road that emit smoke. Central power plants are monitored to prevent this kind of degradation in pollution control.

Also, when you upgrade a power plant, you upgrade all the cars depending on it. Even though existing grid power is already cleaner than burning gas, it can still be improved. Even the coal plants out there now with little pollution control will be upgraded at some point. For example carbon capture (sequestration) is now possible which can’t be done in a gasoline burning car.

With grid power you also get quite a bit of hydroelectric, nuclear, and natural gas that are all very clean. And as you change the mix of power sources on the grid, you again upgrade all the cars depending on it. Renewable power is growing and nuclear power is likely to grow. As these clean sources expand, grid power becomes cleaner.

And as a side benefit, all those grid power sources mentioned including coal are largely domestic, so you remove most of the national security problems associated with our dependence on foreign oil when you go electric.

Finally look at all the CO2 you’ve saved. For just the gas in your car the DOE says you’ve saved almost 20 pounds of C02 per gallon not consumed. Then there’s the CO2 saved delivering the gas from the refinery to the gas station. The CO2 saved refining crude oil into gasoline. The CO2 saved delivering the crude oil to the refinery (from US or overseas). The CO2 saved drilling for the crude oil, or burning off the natural gas by-product. That’s some savings.

Alexstarfire
04-14-2007, 05:13 PM
I'm not saying that an electric motor, or anything electric for that matter, is less efficient than a gas engine. I'm saying that coal pullutes more per watt power. The article I read used 1 Megawatt of power as an example. He showed that for the same amount of power coal was 4x times more pollutant. I know about the maintenance and emissions reduction, and that's highly useful, but ATM it would seem that electric pollutes more. BTW, if we all used PHEV then they'd have to make more power plants to provide all that extra power. You can be sure that most of the plants built in the US are going to be coal since we have so much coal just laying around.

They need to make coal power greener before we all start getting electric cars.

popeetheus
04-14-2007, 10:38 PM
We need to get away from coal and nuclear. I'm not convinced nuclear is the way to go, the waste is radioactive for what...forty thousand years? Would you agree to have that buried near your town? How much gasoline is used in the transportation of that waste? How about increasing the use of windpower, solar, and looking into geothermal?

xcel
04-15-2007, 06:57 AM
Hi Alexstarfire:

___What you read was incorrect. Tarabell pointed out how a gasoline ICE equipped automobile has the efficiency of just 18 - 19% whereas an EV has an efficiency in the 75 - 85% range. The US’ current energy mix currently comprises ~ 50% coal , ~ 20% Nuke, 18% NG with hydro, wind and solar making up the rest for all intents and purposes.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/Electric_Output_By_Type.gif

___Now let us talk about CO2 from gasoline use as well as its production. The stoich chemistry shows 19.6 #’s of CO2 emitted for each gallon of gasoline consumed. This is from the actual burning of a gallon of fuel in the average car with the average gasoline mix. On top of this, there is another 10 #’s of CO2 emitted in the pump out, refining, transportation, and pumping into your tank. Here in lyes the key. A BEV/PHEV will use only enough electricity to output ~ 10 #’s of CO2 all-in to travel the same distance as the average automobile can travel on a gallon of gasoline thus reducing CO2 output (all-in) no matter the current source of power to travel the same distance! Gasoline will soon be understood to be an energy carrier just as H2 is for an FCV!

___You won’t need extra power plants if every gallon of gasoline’s production energy not consumed was instead used for electricity production for a BEV/PHEV. A bit pie in the sky but that is the way it works out. Electrical generating station will have to be built because the Refinery industry uses so much NG for heating and processing and that NG will have to be consumed spinning a turbine for electricity production instead …

___Popeetheus, France reprocesses their fuel and thus the volume of the high level waste is reduced to a swimming pool for 40 years worth of production from the entire country! We stopped the reprocessing research back in the 70’s because of the possibility of Plutonium (it’s a by-product of the process) proliferation. US Nukes have a large swimming pool to contain our 40 years worth of production for each and every plant :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

tarabell
04-15-2007, 02:39 PM
BTW, if we all used PHEV then they'd have to make more power plants to provide all that extra power.

Probably not, according to the DOE.

If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of these 198 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3386



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