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Do carbon credits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_credit) help?

No!!!

Its a BS game. Waist and pay. The only credits that mean anything is the ones you pull off in your daily life. The carbon credits are a marketing, feel better bs game. Give ME some money cause you feel bad. Kinda like the hybrid tax BS that screwed over so many.

But if you feel better about forking over money to cover your butt. Then get after it. Kinda like the old world religion / forgiveness game the catholics for several century's did. Forgiveness for money.

psy

Do carbon credits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_credit) help?

Absolutely they do. :D

They create and motivate markets for "green thinking" which is likely to impact the economic world engines (Nasdaq, Wallstreet, TorEX, etc). The Europeans have been riding the best ideas for more than 30 years and so far in my view they continue to be ahead in the game - it really can't hurt to take a page from their playbook, can it?
Still, while the credit system is not perfect, it does represent a form of thinking that far superceeds the "can't be done" lazyness of our ways.

In the long run, this type of system will put moral and financial pressure on polluters because to continue to widthstand scrutiny they'll have to pay increasingly higher sums. It also compensates and motivates new investments with green potential because investors will not only continue to be focused on the main product/deliverables/benefits of a business but now have the bonus of a company that can sell green credits in their portfolio - making a business that much more valuable.

I particularly like the idea of green/carbon credits becoming the new commodity in the money markets. I really can't wait for that. It would mean an incredible spike in funding (even venture capital) for lots of good technology. In my view, it's got a lot of potential.

Cheers;

MSantos

I don't buy into the concept of a carbon offset. If CO2 goes out my tailpipe, it's in the atmosphere. Period. I can't do anything about that except to drive less, drive more efficiently, turn off a few lights, set the thermostat closer to ambient, and encourage others to do the same. I can't just spend $20 unless it's on a few CFLs to replace the incandescents. Furthermore, I believe that marketing such credits does draw attention away from concept of conservation. If I'm wealthy with a guilty concience, why would I adjust my lifestyle when I can just pay the difference?

If the money does go toward the development of carbon-neutral energy, great. I'm all for that because we desperately need it. But if that's the case then it should be called what it is: a contribution toward the future, not a negation of past sin.

...If CO2 goes out my tailpipe, it's in the atmosphere. Period....

I lean in that direction, but don't totally dismiss carbon credits altogether. If it funds a good effort to reduce putting CO2 into the atmosphere - it's helping.

No... Not US credits at least. The purchase credits don't reduce the circulation credits the US or Brazil companies consume. Participation in the North American Credit Exchange (Chicago I think) is voluntary, and as far as I know, honesty is not enforced. It makes for good PR, but it does not drive the cost of polluting up since dirty companies in the US don't have to buy credits.

In countries that have ratified Kyoto, it is a totally different story. Buying credits on the EU exchange do make a difference, but I've yet to see any for sell to private parties.

One benefit of credits though is that some of the money generated fund R&D, but that doesn't make up for their shortcomings in my opinion. Better to simply buy stock or invest in green companies than to allow a Carbon Credit retailer do it on your behalf.

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Better to simply buy stock or invest in green companies than to allow a Carbon Credit retailer do it on your behalf.

That is a good point. Plus when the company does well you can reinvest any earnings or make a profit for yourself while still helping the environment.

I delayed responding to this thread because it's a loaded subject and I wanted to provide level-headed feedback. As such, here are my thoughts:


The good

Carbon credits are a mixed blessing. One one hand they offer green-aware folks a chance to offset the things they can't otherwise offset right now. A good example of this is solar power in the home. If I were to get a system large enough to ensure that we'll never pay an electric bill again - even if we get an EV that we charge at home - it would cost me about $60,000 - $80,000 installed, and would take anywhere from 12 to 24 years to pay for itself. However, I would need to pay that cost off in just 5 or 6 years as it would be accomplished with either a home improvement or equity loan while carrying the primary mortgage at the same time. With 2 kids nearing college age that is an impossibility.

But there are major advances in solar technology occurring at a near monthly rate. Within the next 2-15 years the entire solar market will change and there will come a time that it is much more economically viable for me to get my array. In the meantime a carbon offset not only makes me feel better about the whole thing but means that I can be carbon neutral long before my home is solar powered.


2) The bad

However, this leads to the other hand of carbon credits. This other hand promotes irresponsibility. An example of this would be that if it only costs me, say, a $200 credit per year to "pass" my home then why should I get involved in a local solar array that, even after technological advancements, would cost me at least that much per month? Why should I buy a smaller car and hypermile it if an $80 annual pass means I'm carbon neutral? Why should I feel guilty about using my truck to haul my boat which has an even bigger engine than the truck that hauls it if I can "pass" them both for less than $150/year?

In other words the idea of carbon trading is fully exploitable. It definitely requires and heavily relies not only on guilt but on the honor system.


Carbon credit systems

The carbon credits systems themselves can be either helpful or straight bull****.

TerraPass is my favorite offsetter for several reasons but mostly because they are audited so stringently, there are tangible ecological results of their investments and efforts and in at least one way their existence is allowing for greenage that otherwise wouldn't even be occurring (the flaring of landfill methane).

However, there are other systems that I don't agree with at all. One example would be some of the carbon exchanges that are setting up. All they do is shift carbon from one place to another, from one project to another, from one consumer to another, without ever making any serious effort to reduce the overall carbon levels that flow through their exchange. This isn't progressive in the slightest and smacks of Bush's Kyoto cop-out regarding the lack of carbon trading abilities in the treaty.

Where things get really muddy is when a perceived good system interacts with a perceived bad system. One example of this is that TerraPass participates in the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) - a carbon trading system. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it, too.


The pitfalls of charity

Interacting with a service like TerraPass is the same as interacting with a charity. One thing we've all learned over the last decade is that charities are anything but a sure bet. From the United Way thefts to the Red Cross' mishandling of the 9/11 families fund to the Catholic church's embezzlement issues, etc. we have seen too many charities turn out to be nothing but cash cows for evil people and are so easy to steal from that no one even seems to notice until the walls come tumbling down.

Out of all of the carbon offset systems I have looked into TerraPass is the only one that has any kind of (apparently) independent auditing system set up, let alone such a stringent one.


My own decisions

As you can tell I have accepted TerraPass as a legitimate offsetting organization. I accept that I could get burned if they turn out to be another Enron or United Way, but while I plan for the worst I hope for the best.

Here are the ways I intend to use them starting this year:

1) For the Yaris: Despite hypermiling my ULEV-2 pregnant rollerskate it still puts 19 pounds of carbon into the atmosphere for every gallon it burns, not to mention the passive emissions of the paint, rubber hoses, etc. It is simply impossible to have a clean car if it burns dinosaur juice. I'll be getting a "Cross Towner" TerraPass for it.

2) For the Tacoma 4x4: This truck is paid for and hauls the boat, camping gear and other things like home improvement materials, and it also gets to participate in green events from time to time like hauling turn-in items to the "Computer & Electronics Recycling Day" each quarter to toting equipment and teams of people on the "Water Snapshot" days to hauling setup equipment for the "Kids for Conservation Festival", etc. It is also a V6 rather than a V8 which has been modified with things like a K&N FIPK in order to be able to haul 5,000 pounds over Mount Rose. I have no illusions that this vehicle gets good mileage (for a truck it sure as heck does but compared to what most of us hypermile with it's a gas guzzling beast) or is clean (just because it passes the local smog test doesn't mean it's not nasty at the tailpipe), but we use it as a truck. It only gets driven for about 3,000 to 4,000 miles per year but usually under heavy load or on the wife's short (6 mile) commute. It will be getting the largest vehicular TerraPass available, the "Road Tripper".

3) The 5.0L boat: I know this is a purely selfish thing to own, especially once you become green-aware, but it's like eating chocolate when you're on a diet. It hurts so good! This item is highly conducive to our quality of life and took us years to get. It has also allowed us to meet and spend time with some really good people that we otherwise would have never met. Fishing, touring, wakeboarding, tubing, getting within 150m of the fireworks barge on Lake Tahoe on the 4th of July... this toy does it all and we put about 150 hours per year on the engine. It will also be getting the "Road Tripper" TerraPass as it has no emissions controls except underwater exhaust (outdrive).

4) Our home: Despite making lots of energy efficiency changes over the last 6 months (and more to come in the next year) we still use ~800kWh and 80 therms per month. I already explained about needing more time before we get our solar array. We also like to barbecue when we get tired of the solar cooker and on the rare occasion I'll throw 3 logs in the fire pit. We'll be getting a 28,000 pound Home TerraPass.


Conclusion

Carbon credit/offset systems are far from perfect but we are imperfect people living in an imperfect society that is part of a larger and imperfect world. Although green ideas and technology have been around for a long time it is only recently that things have started happening on large and somewhat affordable scales. It will take time to get everything ironed out - and I mean decades - and I plan to leverage offset systems for our family until we can achieve a truly carbon balanced lifestyle, which I hope I see before I die.

Brian, that is a very good interpretation of the system. Thank you for the candid perspective.

I should however apologize to the other posters in this thread for perhaps having appeared a little too enthusiastic about this carbon credit system, and as you, I agree that it is not perfect.

However, I do believe my apparent enthusiasm is "fueled" by decades of frustration with our almost reckeless consumerism; and when a system (however imperfect) "appears", I am definitely hopeful that it will be a start of better things.

From a humbler perspective, I believe the risk of dismissing of an idea (however imperfect) has a higher cost than the imperfections it may contain. I apply this to my company, employees and business partners. And when it comes to issues of carbon credits and even carbon trading I (we) cannot afford to be innactive and completely dismissive of these systems because somehow... it does not fit our criteria of suitable.

So what are we to do if the cost of going green remains a little too high for individuals? As you stated, it is not cheap to make the better choices.

As an individual, I've made quite a few choices over the last decades in this area and I am still not totally satisfied.

However, I believe a significant key for our society's environmental ills is the positive effect that corporations and government organizations can have in issues that individuals alone cannot or are not able to tackle. On that basis and with these goals, I see this these carbon credit/trading schemes as a good start.

Cheers;

MSantos