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Wayne Gerdes - CleanMPG.com (www.CleanMPG.com) - April 7, 2006

2008 Ford Escape Hybrid vs. 2008 Ford Escape XLT w/ Auto

2008 Ford Escape Hybrid|2008 Ford Escape XLT w/ Auto
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/2008_Ford_Escape_Hybrid.jpg|http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/2008_Ford_Escape.jpg
Hybrid|Non-hybrid
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08 EPA Fuel Economy Ratings (City/Highway) mpg|
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34/30|20/26
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Mechanical Feature Difference|
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2.3L Atkinsonized ICE w/ 330 V Ni-MH pack and CVT based hybrid drivetrain|2.3L ICE w/ std. Automatic transmission
Rear disc brakes|Not Available
15.0 gallon tank|16.5 gallon tank
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Safety and Security Difference|
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Not Available as of this writing|AdvanceTrac® with RSC® (Roll Stability Control)
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Interior Difference|
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A/C - Dual-zone Electronic Automatic Temperature Control|A/C
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Towing Difference
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1,000 #’s|1,500 #’s
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Warranty Difference|
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Basic 3/36 and 5/60 Power train plus 8-year/100,000-mile Hybrid and/or 10-year/150,000-mile Hybrid Battery Limited Warranty in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York and Vermont.|Basic 3/36 and 5/60 Power train
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Pricing Difference|
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MSRP/Invoice incl. dest. of $665: $25,740/$24,229|MSRP/Invoice incl. dest. of $665: $21,545/$20,369
$500 rebate cash|$500 rebate cash
Federal Tax Credit of $3,000 available until 60,000 FEH and MMH’s are sold|Not Available

Size and Performance: In terms of size, the FEH loses just .4 Cu. Ft. of cargo space behind the second row seats vs. the Escape XLT. Considering performance, the FEH’s is ~ 1 second quicker to 60 then that of an I4 equipped Escape. The FEH has a 1.5 gallon smaller fuel tank then its non-hybrid counterpart but with its far superior FE of 32 combined vs. 23 combined, range of the FEH will not be a problem ;) The FEH’s PZEV emissions are far lower then that of the XLT’s LEV-2 as well.

Pricing: The current 2008 FEH costs $3,860 more then a comparably equipped Escape XLT w/ Auto. The price delta between the Hybrid and XLT falls to just $860 when the current Federal tax credit of $3,000 is applied. Remember to see your tax advisor as AMT can remove some or all of this Tax Credit depending on your financial status. Purchasing an 08 FEH for close to invoice should not be much more difficult then purchasing an XLT w/ Auto near invoice today. That is if gasoline prices remain in the high $2.00 to low $3.00/gallon range over the next few months? The FEH’s Federal Tax credit will be halved after the quarter in which total sales of the FEH and MMH have reached 60,000 units. When that will be would be a guess but I suspect we will see lowered credits on the FEH beginning this fall.

A few odds and ends: As shown, the FEH and XLT w/ Auto match up component for component quite well. Besides the FEH’s superior warranty, its feature additions over and above the XLT include the more powerful, cleaner and vastly more fuel efficient CVT based Hybrid drivetrain attached to the Atkinsonized 2.3L ICE, Dual Zone Climate control, Disc brakes all-around and lowered emissions (SMOG and GHG based). The FEH lacks the very important AdvanceTrac w/ RSC however.

Conclusion: With the FEH’s included luxury amenities not available on the XLT inside of an option package, its livelier performance and much higher FE in both the real world and per the EPA, the FEH is a bargain as long as the Federal Tax credit can be fully applied.

Counterpoint: The lack of AdvanceTrac with RSC on the Escape Hybrid is somewhat troubling. Ford has stated they are working on adding this key safety feature to the Hybrid but integrating it into the advanced drivetrain turned out to be a bit tougher then originally thought. Once this safety feature has been integrated and perfected, expect it to be included at no extra charge. Secondly, if a large percentage of the Federal Tax credit can not be applied, the $3,860 price differential can be a very tough sell.

Good Luck

Wayne

Great Job, Wayne.

I would add that several states match a percentage of the federal tax credit. Here in SC they match 20%, so I'll have another $600 to help offset the $3,860 difference.

Some insurance companies give reduced premiums for hybrids as well (Travelers mentions 10% on their website), if that's the case I could see another $120 or so.

I believe that I can save $100 in gas in a few months, since we should be getting ~16MPG more than our current car (city) and won't have to use premium gas.

I'm a little bummed about the lack of RSC and hope they will be able to retro-fit when it becomes available.

For us the FEH is a clear winner!

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=167435,00.html
According to the IRS, as of December 31, 2006, Ford had sold 22,156 qualifying hybrid vehicles of which 5,645 were sold in Q4.

Since I don't have FEH and MMH sales numbers prior to Q4 2006 or Q1 2007, I can't say for sure when the 60,000 will be reached.

If sales in Q1 2007 were to have doubled from Q4 2006 and continue at that rate (~12,000 units per quarter), one could expect that the earliest that the phase out of the federal tax credit would be Q2 2008 (Q4 2007 to reach 60,000 plus the 6 month grace period). After that there is another 6 month period where 50% of the credit is available and 25% for the next 6 months. This scenario has the FEH and MMH buyers receiving some credit all the way until Q2 2009. -Note: Sales beyond the 60,000 limit do not affect phase out period length so there will be some credit for at least 1.5 years following the end of the quarter when the 60,000 unit is sold. -

Who knows what the guys/gals in Washington will do with hybrid related legislation between now and then. Either way, I ordered my 08 FEH over a month ago and I expect to get a VIN this week with a delivery date in sometime in August. I think I'll be OK.

Excellent summary. If we were in the market for a new vehicle today, the FEH would be on our short list. Hopefully in 2-3 years time we'll be in that position (and hopefully there will be some great new hybrid choices, not least of which would be an FEH with stability control).

'08 Ford Escape Hybrid vs. '08 Ford Escape XLT w/auto vs. '08 Mazda Tribute Sport i 5 Spd

The Mazda epa nos. are 22/28 with an overall of 24. The reality with application of some fundamentally sound hypermiling techniques are quite different and significantly better. 9441.7 miles on 325.57 gallons or an overall average of 29.000 mpg. Now a 3 mpg advantage for the Hybrid without traction control begins to raise serious questions about the wisdom, safety, and economics of the purchase. The reaction to these rather astounding numbers from two Mazda/Ford Dealers has been the Vermont Cow Look! And why not? It's best not to know when you're trying to sell a hybrid that will fetch $5,000-$8000 more!

Tribor
08 Mazda Tribute Sport i

Tribor,
If you are trying to say that the hybrid's true mileage is only 3mpg better than the non-hybrid, you have conveniently neglected the similar application of fundamental hypermiling techniques to its own use as well. This is not a fair comparison in the least. Members here have proven over and over that the FEH is capable of numbers far higher than a measly 32mpg. Numbers starting with a 4 are readily available with a bit of effort as you have put into your Mazda. The wizdom and personal economy of a FEH purchaser would appear to be quite intact when the vehicles are compared on even ground.

Hi Tribor:

___Tim said it so well I can only add the FEH/MMH twins can be taken to well over 50 mpg in heavier slow moving traffic or 40 + out on the highway. The non-hybrid counterparts are good for 15 – 20 in the first and 35 – 40 in the latter at their best. Only under very specific circumstances can the non-hybrid be taken to beyond the hybrid and those circumstances are not readily available to most nor would they bother wasting the time to take the non-hybrid to that level.

___If your tax situation keeps you out of AMT space and the Fed tax credit is still available, it would be foolish for someone to purchase the XLT w/ Auto vs. an FEH for just $860.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Whoa....the rath of the hard core hypermilers rains upon me. Until I see numbers confirming that Ford/Mazda SUV Hybrids can generate the numbers suggested, I think I'll stick with my original opinion that a stick shift 2.3 L Ford/Mazda SUV can be very very competitive. Thanks for the rain guys. Or perhaps....a hypermiler with more ordinary technology at his or her disposal can be very competitive with the "average" (someone who just drives it and can't spell "hypermiling"!) hybrid pilot.

Tribor

No wrath here, just the desire to make fair comparisons. You seem to think that we're on some kind of mission to pummel folks with normal cars, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Wayne drives an AT 4-cylinder Honda Accord or a 5-speed 2.3L Ford Ranger. As for me, I do have a hybrid but I would still be pulling nice numbers out of my Accord Coupe if I hadn't needed to upgrade to something with four doors and more cargo room. That was a good car and pulled 40s with some effort. Wayne pulls pretty much whatever number he wants. ;)

It's great that you are happy with the car you purchased and I hope you get many good years of service out of it, with continued high FE. But I think we have been quite fair WRT your comparison between hybrid and non-hybrid.

Reminds of the sage advice of a marriage counselor: "Would you rather be right or would you rather be in a relationship?". Everybody's right here and--as far as I know--don't need to have a relationship.

Happy Holidays, Guys.

Tribor

Hi Tribor:

___Here is an early Round Trip Christmas present for you offered courtesy of GaryG and his 2005 FEH ;)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/504/Gary_G_70_3_MPG_FEH.jpg

___Good Luck and Merry Christmas :angel:

___Wayne

C'mon Tribor, your comparison is apples and giraffes. If you are going to compare two cars you have to use the same test methods.

For any given car you can look at the '85-'07 EPA numbers, the 2008 EPA numbers, the real world driving of a leadfoot, the real world driving of a typical hypermiler, the results Wayne gets, Car and Driver test results, Consumer Reports standardized test results, and in many cases European cycle test results, all of which generate wildly different numbers. As imperfect as the EPA numbers may sometimes be, they are the only standardized test we have that can be applied across the board to all vehicles sold in the USA.

As for the FEH specifically, it did take a bigger hit with the new 2008 protocol than some other vehicles did, but it is still way more than 3mpg better than the FE non-hybrid. And it's easily hypermileable, even relative to the 2007 ratings. Do a search, educate yourself, and you'll find lots of people pulling mid 30s and better in the FEH. Good luck doing that in the non-hybrid version.

Counterpoint: The lack of AdvanceTrac with RSC on the Escape Hybrid is somewhat troubling. Ford has stated they are working on adding this key safety feature to the Hybrid but integrating it into the advanced drivetrain turned out to be a bit tougher then originally thought. Once this safety feature has been integrated and perfected, expect it to be included at no extra charge. Secondly, if a large percentage of the Federal Tax credit can not be applied, the $3,860 price differential can be a very tough sell.

Good Luck

Wayne

I think the toughness of the sell can be made even tougher if the XLT is a 5-speed manual. I expect that the 5 speed is a little cheaper than the auto, making things tougher still. I think that's where Tribor was headed.

Tibor, I think you did your own little rain dance when you used the "questions the wisdom" phrase.

For me and many others the federal and state tax credits make the FEH/MMH price difference almost negligible ($260 in my case). Since I also save 10% on my entire insurance premium for having a hybrid in my fleet, that will be another $167 annually for me and is an ongoing savings just like the FE advantage.

Tibor, it's great that you're getting better than EPA in your ride but the average on my last four tanks with my non-hypermileing* wife doing most of the driving, and in cold weather nonetheless, is 35MPG. Where I'm from that's about $10 less per fill up vs. 29MPG. At $10 savings per tank, I only needed to buy 10 tanks (or about 5000 miles) to reach
break even. Since I'm already at 7000 miles, I'm making money and will continue to make/save more as gas prices rise (and there's no doubt they will). For me, break-even came at less than 4 months.

With that said:
Don't forget to factor in the less money spent on general maintenance on the hybrid. Fewer oil changes, less engine wear due to electric mode, less brake pad wear due to regen, and no AT transmission filter to change (if comparing to an AT equipped vehicle), or no clutches to replace (for those with MTs) are just the beginning. The LRR tires will last longer. Hybrids get extended warranties on the hybrid components INCLUDING the transmission. As for the battery pack, taxi hybrids in San Francisco have gone more than 240,000 miles (and counting) on the stock pack.

And since the FEH/MMH have rear disk brakes (vs. the rear drums on the non-hybrid Tribute) I'm betting stopping distances are better. And let's not forget, the FEH/MMH WILL out accelerate the equivalent I4 due to the electric engines 100% available low end torque. In most cases it will hang with the V6 model in acceleration.

As for RSC not being available on the FEH/MMH, before I got my FEH I though it would have been nice. Now that I have it and know how good the suspension is, it's become a non-issue. When we were young, my wife and I drove all kinds of roll over prone, top heavy Broncos, Bronco IIs, and conversion vans and never, EVER needed it back then. The FEH/MMH (and your Tribute) all have a great suspension compared to those earlier vehicles and are far more sure footed. I think people are putting too much importance on that feature. I think the extra air bags and ABS are FAR more important. And as far as traction control, I prefer to use my right foot. It's never failed me.

Did I mention emissions? FEH/MMH are AT-PZEV. I'm not sure what the Tribute is rated but I'm positive it's dirtier...

As for me, the FEH is a clear winner in this comparison and I'll take my money and run...


*misspelled for effect

i just got my 07 taxes done and i found i cant take the 3ooo tax credit because i have 5 kids and ive reach the tax credit limit aint that a kick in the ass

Hi FEH-Ray:

___That is about the standard line from anybody hoping to receive the full tax credit. There is a method to recover some of it in future years I have read about but it sounded like a nightmare and only for those with high paid accountants at their beck and call. That @#( $%#*$# @)_$!@ AMT is a real kick in the teeth. Tax cuts on capitol gains for the top few % in the country earning much of their income off that and a tax increase thanks to AMT for the middle and upper middle class?

___Either way, I am very sorry to hear that you got nicked by AMT for the FEH Tax Credit as well :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This is an interesting thread, but it is, I fear, a bit dated. Given the current market for hybrids of any kind and the fact that FEH's are selling for sticker or even above, the cost/benefit analysis has now changed.

When we bought our 08 XLT I4 FWD Auto last month, thanks to incentives and a partner program through my work, I was able to get a heck of a deal, and seeing as how just finding an FEH was nigh impossible and costly to boot, my analysis turned out quite differently. The dealership where I got my XLT had two FEHs and they each sold about $1000 above sticker in less than a week. And to get an FEH from another dealer, they had to buy a regular Escape, and F150 and 2 F350s along with the FEH. That is suicide!

Even with the tax credit, the FEH was still about $4-5,000 more than the deal I got. Of course, my deal may not be available to everyone, but the given the hybrid premium and the glut of standard SUVs, the climate has changed the market.

As for FE, I have had three fuel fills so far and have gotten 24.5, 25.9 and 28.0 MPG respectively as I learn how to hypermile it and make adjustments to tires and aerodynamics. My current tank is sitting at 29.7 MPG over half a tank. You can follow my progress at http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=MPG(US)&viewcar=2147

Though I would love to have the hybrid, and even with the additional mileage I could get by hypermiling the FEH, the cost benefit did not make sense at this time.

Brian