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View Full Version : Conflict rampant over fuel economy.


xcel
03-20-2007, 03:47 AM
Most favor higher standard, but not at Detroit's expense. (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070320/BUSINESS01/703200387/1014)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Dodge_Durango_Hybrid.jpgJustin Hyde - Detroit Free Press - March 20, 2007

Dodge Durango rated at 12/17 city/highway on the 08 schedules. Why does Detroit continuing to build such a non-fuel efficient machine? Profits!

A majority of Michiganders favor higher fuel economy standards for cars and trucks, with some supporting increases to 40 miles per gallon or more, and many would pay hundreds of dollars extra for more-efficient vehicles.

But a similar majority would oppose sizable fuel-efficiency increases if they threatened jobs at Detroit automakers and increased Japanese competitors' inroads into the U.S. market.

That's according to the latest Detroit Free Press-Local 4 Michigan Poll, which asked 801 state residents about their feelings on the fuel economy debate.

The numbers reveal a rift that runs through many Michigan households, where concerns about rising gasoline prices and the environment clash with worries about increasing the financial demands on struggling Detroit automakers in a weak state economy.

Kenneth Chapman III, 35, of Detroit said he'd support higher mileage standards as long as they didn't hurt the domestic auto industry.

"The better the fuel economy, the less money you spend on gas, especially with fuel prices going up the way they are," said Chapman, who's looking for work. But "the automotive companies are doing bad enough as it is. We don't need any more kinks in the chain."

The Bush administration has set a 4% annual increase as a goal, but said the final decision should be left to regulators, and estimated the plan could cost the industry $114 billion, with $85 billion from Detroit automakers.

The battle over fuel economy has just begun on Capitol Hill, where former Vice President Al Gore is to testify Wednesday before Rep. John Dingell's energy subcommittee and give his recommendations to reduce global warming.

Meanwhile, many bills have been introduced from Democrats and Republicans to raise standards that now require automakers to average 27.5 m.p.g. for cars and 22.2 m.p.g. for pickups, SUVs and vans.

Although 58% of those polled favored higher standards, 36% said the rules should be left alone. When asked how much tougher the standards should be, 26% favored an increase to 40 m.p.g. or more, 16% favored 35 m.p.g. and 15% chose 30 m.p.g.

Bryan Blair, 32, a network engineer in Canton, said he'd support an increase to 35 m.p.g. In his last job, Blair traveled up to 50 miles a day for six years, averaging about 20 m.p.g.

"I'm sick of the auto industry not doing anything about it," Blair said. "They just keep putting out all of these cars that stay the same over the years, and they have all this technology. I would think by now they could increment it gradually."

When asked how much they would be willing to pay for an 8-m.p.g improvement in fuel economy for vehicles similar to what they drive now, 47% said they would pay $1,000 to $2,000 more, and 20% said they'd be willing to spend $500 to $700.

Naomi Kneller, 39, a homemaker in Pinckney, said she would be willing to pay $1,000 extra if it meant getting 30 m.p.g. "I don't think that's asking too much," she said.

Thirty percent of those who answered said they wouldn't be willing to spend anything more.

"Look at our economy," said Irene Beebe, 56, a mother of eight from Holly. "Can anybody afford it with the cost of living? ... Cars are expensive, and people can't afford them now."

Support for higher standards melted when it was tied to the financial health of Detroit's automakers. If a significantly tougher mileage requirement would lead to lower sales for Detroit and higher sales for Japanese automakers, 61% said they would oppose it, and 28% said they would still support it.

Dorie Bays, 35, a homemaker in Macomb Township, said any increase would have to be reasonable, but that higher standards were necessary even if it meant some pain for Detroit.

"I feel bad saying it," she said, "but we would catch up out of necessity."

The poll of 801 Michigan adults 18 and older was conducted by Selzer & Co. of Des Moines, Iowa. It was taken March 11-14 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

brucepick
03-20-2007, 08:27 AM
I just don't buy the idea that increasing fuel economy in cars is going to cost manufacturers money. EVERY vehicle needs to be designed; they spend the money on design regardless of what the design parameters are. May as well design it to be fuel efficient.

Significantly reducing size and weight of vehicles and promoting FE as sexy would go a long way. Just as you can talk about how wonderful it is that a pickup can tow x thousand pounds, you can talk about how it can get 30 or 40 mpg in daily use (if it was built to do that). Or 50+ mpg. We can promote the fact that every gallon of oil we don't burn is money we don't have to send out of the country. It's patriotic - it just needs to be painted large, so to speak.

Sure, they make high profit percentages on gas guzzlers. But there won't be any profit on unsold vehicles or idle plants. They could crank out tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of appealing and efficient gas sippers if they had a mind to.

Dan
03-20-2007, 10:22 AM
... they spend the money on design regardless of what the design parameters are. May as well design it to be fuel efficient.Think that's the problem. Can't back it up with figures, but I'd hazard to guess that Toyota and Honda have a bigger R&D budget than the Big 3. Detroit has shifted their business model to low volume, high profit. The less FE cars score bigger margins because they are cheaper to build or have a diminished R&D budget.

Ironically, this is exactly what the CNW Dust-to-Dust report stated. The reason they gave for the Prius having such a huge eco-footprint was because Toyota spent so much money in R&D. The inverse is also true. According to CNW, the reason the HumVee is so green is because less R&D was spent on it (an absolute lie, since DoD spent on it before GM bought it, but we all know that report is BS).

Edit: Added following...

We can promote the fact that every gallon of oil we don't burn is money we don't have to send out of the country. It's patriotic - it just needs to be painted large, so to speak.Absolutely. I'd love to see a commercial...

Have you bought a terrorist lunch yet this year? No? Are you sure? For every gallon of gas you buy one nickel (made up figure) makes it into the pocket of a terrorist organization. Most Americans motorists spend over $500 a year on gas, which nets terrorist $20 / year per American motorist. $20 dollars is enough for any terrorist and his buddies to get a good square meal. So ask yourself, Have you bought your terrorist lunch yet this year?

Brought to you by the coalition of energy independence (totally made up org)

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TonyPSchaefer
03-20-2007, 12:31 PM
I originally posted this over on PriusChat. I think it's pertinent in this thread also.

State of the Union Address, 2007:
Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil.

State of the Union Address, 2006:
Keeping America competitive requires affordable energy. And here we have a serious problem: America is addicted to oil, which is often imported from unstable parts of the world. The best way to break this addiction is through technology.

State of the Union Address, 2005:
And my budget provides strong funding for leading-edge technology -- from hydrogen-fueled cars, to clean coal, to renewable sources such as ethanol. (Applause.) Four years of debate is enough: I urge Congress to pass legislation that makes America more secure and less dependent on foreign energy.

State of the Union Address, 2004:
Consumers and businesses need reliable supplies of energy to make our economy run -- so I urge you to pass legislation to modernize our electricity system, promote conservation, and make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy.

State of the Union Address, 2003:
Our third goal is to promote energy independence for our country, while dramatically improving the environment. (Applause.) I have sent you a comprehensive energy plan to promote energy efficiency and conservation, to develop cleaner technology, and to produce more energy at home.

State of the Union Address, 2002:
Good jobs also depend on reliable and affordable energy. This Congress must act to encourage conservation, promote technology, build infrastructure, and it must act to increase energy production at home so America is less dependent on foreign oil.

Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov (http://www.whitehouse.gov/)

xcel
03-20-2007, 02:54 PM
Hi All:

___I look at it as a relatively simple math problem. You have gas-guzzling Trucks and SUV’s that receive 16 mpg in the real world. Gas goes from $1.60 to $2.60. Trucks and SUV sales tank. You have uncompetitive and outdated sub-compact through mid-sized sedans because your big profits made from the Trucks and SUV’s went to purchase companies like SAAB, Ranger Rover and Jaguar. All the while your fuel efficient Sub-compacts through Mid-sized sedans are lagging behind the Japanese rivals ever increasing fuel efficiency and are even more outdated. Finally you lay off 1/3 of your work force because nobody is buying anything you make. Could it be that your gas-guzzling profitable products cannot compete for the American $ because they suck fuel down like a wino on skid-row and your sub and compacts cannot even match the fuel efficiency of the competitors mid-sized let alone compact designs?

___If the big 3 want to be competitive, they had better do it with more fuel efficient designs across the board because it is in their best interest to do so! America is waking up to the fact our gas-guzzling ways have terrorist ties, global warming links and basic pocket book hooks. The Big 3 would like to keep the status quo with excuses as to why they cannot increase Fuel efficiency with this or that reason but that current path leads to bankruptcy.

___The UAW is also starting to wake up to the facts with labor costs via negotiated contracts across much of the peripheral auto-supply industries coming down in the past three years as well as the give-backs happening at the Big-3 as we speak. Chrysler not-with-standing currently. Union give-backs are not a panacea because allowing a CEO with arrogance to run a company into the ground is just as sure a sign of disaster as escalating/out of control labor costs via current wages, health care and pensions are.

___If the Big 2.5 (I will single out Ford here) cannot make a great compact Ford Focus/Fiesta/Ka or mid-sized Fusion (23/31 w/ an Auto) w/ even a hint of higher FE here in the US or just across either border for a profit, the inevitable has already occurred.

___Finally, GM’s absolute insistence that E85 is the solution to both there’s and America’s woes is yet another reason they just don’t get it. Make all your cars E85 for the $150 upcharge and the vast majority of consumers will still purchase cars that have much better FE today (Japanese) and fill up with cheaper gasoline with higher FE. The E85 vehicles are nothing but a smoke screen just as the Hydrogen powered Fuel Cel future is today. There isn’t enough E85 (we all know this) and at competitive pricing (E100 is $2.33 per gallon not including road taxes today) and the Japanese know this. Why are the American Big 3 chase down a pie-in-the-sky dream that has no chance of paying off or selling more cars and trucks?

___I think I really need some sleep :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

BailOut
03-20-2007, 03:59 PM
The irony in articles like this never escapes me.

I have heard and read all kinds of quotes from executives from the Big 3 over the last year that span from the mid-90's to today, and there is one theme that holds true throughout:

The Big 3 just don't get it. Any of it.

They don't listen to consumers, Federal regulators, State regulators, international conferences or commissions. They live in their own little world where they are the Lords of all creation. That is, until they aren't anymore.

Then a company like Toyota comes around and knocks them into the dirt without even trying and they can't figure out why. They label the event with words like fluke, blip, unexpected turn, etc. while they quietly lay off 40,000 people in Detroit alone, shutting down entire neighborhoods.

Even at this point they still don't get it. All they need to save themselves is to change their own paradigm to focus their R&D efforts on efficiency and emissions rather than crappy plastic exteriors, throaty exhausts and fake horsepower ratings. Hell, you'd think they'd be pursuing this on their own and in the most dogged manner possible. Instead they run off and spend millions of dollars a day on lobbying Congress to try to prevent the adoption of the very standards that they are killing their companies with by not voluntarily following.

It's like watching someone gnaw their own limb off to get out of a trap, knowing the action will just make them bleed to death in the near future.

The patriotic aspect gives me a rueful chuckle as well. It seems that some folks don't yet understand that we are each global citizens before national citizens. Being a good global citizen greatly helps you to also be a good national citizen.

One aspect of being a good global citizen is buying a car - if you must have one - which has high fuel efficiency and low emissions. In today's world that means buying a Toyota or a Honda. Ergo buying a Japanese car is indeed patriotic.

xcel
03-20-2007, 04:17 PM
Hi Bailout:

___That was indeed an Excellent reply!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan
03-20-2007, 04:29 PM
Went to the actual article page and strolled through the comments. Some are pretty interesting, surprisingly FE conscious. Some others aren't. My favorite is this comment warning against buying FE cars (http://forums.freep.com/viewtopic.php?p=101116#101116). The reason.... If everyone had a FE car, demand for gas would drop and supply would slow. Low supply = high price...

Uhh... isn't demand supposed to be in there somewhere?

http://forums.freep.com/viewtopic.php?p=101116#101116

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Chuck
03-20-2007, 04:51 PM
I think Detroit has fought this from Time Memorial.

It would have been a lot less painful if they had stressed FE a decade or so ago.

brucepick
03-20-2007, 10:25 PM
Possibly Detroit only exists as a tool for Big Oil, to create a demand for oil.
But that would be a conspiracy theory.



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