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Hi All

For a few weeks now I been doing key off FAS with some results to report so far.

First of all, let me describe what happens in a Key Off FAS in my FEH. When you turn the key off in neutral, you must return the key to the run position for the brakes (they work with the key off, but I think your limited to 4min. max). Putting the key back to the run position also give you your Speed and other gauges like the SG back. You lose power steering, but that's not a problem and it will not hurt anything according to the manual. The FEH can be restarted in active neutral (above 6mph) at any time during the glide. There is a ~3min delay after you restart to go EV again, so you must watch how you use Key Off FAS.

There is a big improvement in MPG during warm-up in my weather, where you cannot go EV till its ready. I suspect Key-Off FAS would impove MPG even more for those in colder weather. It seems also like with anything in hypermiling, there is a place and time to get the full benefits. Having to wait to go EV after a restart make things tricky, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. Also, when you need to come to a quick stop, you need to restart to grab the regen charging for the battery.

GaryG

Hi Gary:

___I was just speaking with Eric about this for the HF2007 Fuel Economy Challenge and taking an FWD FEH to 85 + by FAS’ing. The internal electronics are just to slow to go ICE-Off but I have hopes for the 08 and its new ICE-On to ICE-Off SW upgrade?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne, I don't know about 85mpg, I have a hard time with low 70's. You may be able to take an FEH to that range, but I can tell it's out of my range with mine. I'm talking about ending the RT with the same battery SoC which I start with, which is a very low one to begin with most of the time.

As you know, I've given my HV battery a hard workout during the past two years and even though my skills have gotten better, it's hard to see any improvements over last year. Not sure if its the strong headwinds or not, but I just filled up and only averaged 45.7mpg on that tank. My average speed is going up, and that may have something to do with it also. Maybe it's time for me to trade for an '08 FWD FEH, but my wife wants the next new vehicle.

The '08 FEH may have a quicker ICE-OFF, but from some of the talk on the boards, Ford has made the regen alot less agressive on the '06 and '07 than my '05.

GaryG

its a shame for the nWH11 prius... the car cannot be restarting in N during a glide but your mention garyG of only being able to restart if over 6 mph... i'll check that out... if that is true then i can save a lot of gas on cold trips!

Phil, I think active neutral above 6mph for restarting is a program thing in the FEH, but do you have anything to report on the Prius?

This morning it drop to the 30F's for the first time here in South Florida in awhile. With a cold start, Key-OFF FAS brought me to the best average ever. Within 1.3 miles I was at 37mpg average and at 10 miles, I reached 50mpg average for the first time from a cold start. I learn something everyday with my FEH. Still have alot to learn, I know. BTW, my battery was almost full when I was able to go EV.

GaryG

unfortnately garyg no matter how hard i tried i couldn't restart the NWH11 prius when the shifter is in N and iam at speed (like 12 mph). Even when stopped completely the car wouldn't restart and it only restarts in P... grr

looks like i might have to shell out cash for the thermostat hack that NWH11 users have been toying with. It allows engine off as low as 30 degrees C when enabled.

That's to bad Phil, I guess I should consider myself to very lucky to find out I can use FAS and restart at any speed above 6mph. Going EV after a FAS is a pain, but I'll just work that into my program the best way possible.

GaryG

Starting to use Key-Off FAS in my normal and not so normal routes more now and can see high speed P&G can get me there faster and still maintain well above 45mpg averages per day.

What's happenning is I'm charging my HV battery slowly during acceleration or the pulse and using it later for a prolong EV mode on roads with slower speed limits. This is changing the need for as many FS in "L" to boost the battery SoC, and I'm not completely sure maintaining a high SoC might be better for FE overall in everyday driving with FAS. One thing is for sure, this might be a way to reduce the need to cool the battery with the A/C compressor because of heavy charging. It's clear the driver makes all the difference in FE over the vehicle or modifications to the vehicle.

Now that I'm getting the hang of FAS and the great way the FEH responds to it, the sky is the limit in my new found technique other hypermilers have enjoyed for years.

GaryG

It seems really weird that you'd have to FAS in something
that works so similarly to the prius. But the more I learn
about the FEH [and that's partially working on a heap o'
slides for this training thing that landed in my lap..]
the more ill-founded some of the systems and design start
looking to me. Why all the climate-control muck, when
simply taking cabin air across batteries does just about
the right thing? And what's with the cockamamie external
vents on an *upward-facing* surface to get rained into?
.
I'm glad you're having fun and making discoveries, but I
feel compelled toward some sympathy with regard to various
implementation nits you may be up against... weird stuff.
I'm sure they did a great job in other areas, even if it
really feels like more than a few pages from Toyota's book..
.
_H*

Hi Hobbit:

___You have to go for a ride in a decently setup FEH soon. You would think it would mimic a Prius in its actions and control. User control is completely different under most circumstances other then at a light or sign when pulling away from a stop in EV or when she does shut down, she acts just like a Prius in EV. They do not like to shutdown as easily as a Prius II unfortunately :(

___And rain does not come into the battery compartment.

___If you want to feel really different, go try and place a TCH into a Glide sometime.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Folks

I started this thread 4 months ago shortly after I began Key-Off FAS with my '05 FWD FEH. After much more practice, I need to correct a few things.

The electric power steering does work during a FAS if you return the key quickly to the run position. Most of my Key-Off FAS were at higher speeds and I didn't feel any change in steering. When I first tested the electric power steering, I was at a slower speed, and didn't return the key to the on position as quick. If you don't quickly return the key, you lose power steering. I tested this as I restarted at a stoplight and had to FAS right away because the light turned red before I made it to the intersection. As I was stopped, the electric power steering was operational which floored me.

Also, I didn't think FAS would improve my record of 70.3mpg on a 20 mile RT, but I take that back now. Wayne stated that the FEH may be pushed to 85+mpg with Key-Off FAS at the Hybridfest MPG challenge. I don't know this yet for sure, but I think the FEH will hit over 100mpg and maybe up to 120mph with a fresh pack using Key-Off FAS and "N" coasting. I did a start up with an almost dead battery and at the second stop light one mile away I was at 94mpg according to my SG current trip. With a fully charged battery, and an experienced FAS driver, who knows what the FEH will do in an open course. Because I've increased my speed due to all these techniques, I haven't slowed down to get a feel of what all this adds up to.

Who ever makes it to Hybridfest with an '08 FWD FEH/MMH from CleanMPG, I have some tips that may help. Certainly I want a member here to place a good MPG number for the FEH/MMH.

GaryG

Hi Gary:

___I am still hoping HF 2007 will appear on your schedule at the last moment and if so, look out ;) I can pick you up from O'Hare or Mitchell like I am a few others already so think about it, OK!

___I am going to try and use an 08 FEH in the Challenge as it is about the best way to show the world that great FE using hypermiling techniques can be performed and achieved in anything!

___Good Luck and thanks for the update.

___Wayne

I did tell him he could drive my FEH...

Hi Gary:

___If I were you, I would take Debbie up on that one as she won’t even let me drive her FEH :D

___We do all hope that by some stroke of luck you could make it out. I will not just leave the light on for you; I will leave it shining brightly as a beacon of hope that you can make it somehow, someway.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Debbie and Wayne

Thanks for the offer guys, I thought Debbie just wanted me to drive her FEH to show her my techniques. If she will let me use her FEH in the MPG competition or if anyone will help me find an '08, I would seriously make every effort to be there. My wife has also gave me the go ahead (my birthday is July 21), so everything is fine on that end.

Not sure, but I think Debbie has the navi, because I would need the battery level to push things like I can in my FEH. Can I get a set of rules so I know what to plan on? Things like battery level before and after, is FASing allowed, and a little about speed and time limits. Is this a course that locals know about the competition, or should you drive with the flow of traffic. It really doesn't mater what the rules are, but if I need to relearn how to drive slow, I need to practice a little with FASing.

GaryG

Debbie and Wayne

Thanks for the offer guys, I thought Debbie just wanted me to drive her FEH to show her my techniques. If she will let me use her FEH in the MPG competition or if anyone will help me find an '08, I would seriously make every effort to be there. My wife has also gave me the go ahead (my birthday is July 21), so everything is fine on that end.

Not sure, but I think Debbie has the navi, because I would need the battery level to push things like I can in my FEH. Can I get a set of rules so I know what to plan on? Things like battery level before and after, is FASing allowed, and a little about speed and time limits. Is this a course that locals know about the competition, or should you drive with the flow of traffic. It really doesn't mater what the rules are, but if I need to relearn how to drive slow, I need to practice a little with FASing.

GaryG

Hi Gary!

Yes, you could drive my FEH in the MPG challenge :):), & yes, I do have the NAV - it was a very important tool in my quest for ever-better FE, especially before I got my ScanGuage. I'd love to ride along, unless my 1**lbs. would hold you back too much ;)

In fact, if you *do* come, you can have my place for the competition, since no matter how well I do, you'll surely blow my score away anyhow :D:D

Of course, I'd still like to get a lesson in your techniques as well :)

I've started playing with P&G a little bit, doing my pulses on the downhills, because it unnerves me a little to see my average mpg drop. I'm also trying to practice your more active SOC management - rather than cruising on EV until the ICE kicks in on its own. The temptation to do that is great, but I've noticed it's easier to limit the rpm's in my pulses if the battery isn't completely depleted.

There's also a little "pocket" neighborhood with a winding downhill street that I coast through in neutral on my way home from dropping off my car-pooler, but other than that, I'm not really comfortable with NICE-off coasting or FASing, because I'm afraid that it would be too easy for me to be distracted & not be able to react in time. (And if my hubby ever caught me in a FAS, he'd probably take away my keys! ;)) So I will probably never attain the heights of FE that you have, but so far, the numbers still keep climbing :):):)

Hi Debbie,
I have no problem with you riding shotgun, but I would prefer that you video the event as I have gotten many requests for a video from FEH/MMH owners. A video would also help the news media if they desired a copy of the tape. This will be a documented event for future buyers of the FEH/MMH. It seems that you and I have the best mileage, so it is important to spread the word that a Ford Hybrid is the buy of the century. I'm sorry for the delay in my response. I'm currently in Boston for my son's college graduation .

Hi Gary --

I would be more than happy to videotape the ride - & I'll be first in line for a copy :D:D
- if someone can supply a camera???

I agree that such a tape/DVD would be a great tool, not only for teaching how to optimize the FEH's FE capabilities, but also to help Ford sell more FEH's. Whenever I talk to Ford people, I praise their decision to put this vehicle on the market , & tell them what a great vehicle it is, & how happy I am with mine - I'm going to want them to build me another one in a few years :):):) - so anything I can do to help...

The other thing that occurred to me after my last post, was that even though I know you'll easily outdo me in the MPG Challenge, I'm not going to give up my turn at it - I think this might be interesting to compare what the *same* FEH can do at the hands of 2 different drivers, different abilities, different approaches...

Hi Gary --

I would be more than happy to videotape the ride - & I'll be first in line for a copy :D:D
- if someone can supply a camera???

I agree that such a tape/DVD would be a great tool, not only for teaching how to optimize the FEH's FE capabilities, but also to help Ford sell more FEH's. Whenever I talk to Ford people, I praise their decision to put this vehicle on the market , & tell them what a great vehicle it is, & how happy I am with mine - I'm going to want them to build me another one in a few years :):):) - so anything I can do to help...

The other thing that occurred to me after my last post, was that even though I know you'll easily outdo me in the MPG Challenge, I'm not going to give up my turn at it - I think this might be interesting to compare what the *same* FEH can do at the hands of 2 different drivers, different abilities, different approaches...

Great! I have a nice Sony HDR-SR1 High Definition with 5.1 surround sound with a 30 gig hard drive. Maybe you could video my style and I could video your style to give viewers options. I'm sure many more people would prefer to drive your style because many people get confused with my techniques. Same vehicle, different styles will add to a good video if we can pull this off for CleanMPG and it's developers. Can we get a nice sticker for your FEH to further promote this site? How bout it Terry, Tom, Wayne and our support group?

GaryG

Hi Gary:

___If you make it up to HF2007, I will purchase a CleanMPG hat for you :D

___As for the 5.1 surround sound, I don’t think that will show anything ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Gary:

___If you make it up to HF2007, I will purchase a CleanMPG hat for you :D

___As for the 5.1 surround sound, I don’t think that will show anything ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Now that I've been looking at the Hybridfest MPG Challenge rules, it appears the challenge is limited to 35 members. If I became a member and join today, is there any openings available and would this secure a spot?

GaryG

Hi Gary:

___Get a hold of Eric and the gang at Hybridfest.com. I believe there are still slots available :)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I missed this thread!

Hey, if you could make it out to Hybridfest, that would be great!

I missed this thread!

Hey, if you could make it out to Hybridfest, that would be great!

Thanks Rich

Thanks to Eric who confirmed that there are still openings in the MPG Challenge, I just joined and signed up for the Friday event. I made a note per Eric that Debbie and I are using the same vehicle, so we both are not scheduled to drive during the same time.

It also sounds like there are minimum and maximum speed limits to avoid real slow drivers. This means I don't have to practice my slow driving skills and I can let it rip as I do everyday. I think the FEH will do much better this year and open some eyes for Ford.

Wish old GPSman1 could make the challenge!

GaryG

I just joined and signed up for the Friday event.

:woot:

I made a note per Eric that Debbie and I are using the same vehicle, so we both are not scheduled to drive during the same time.

Good point - I hadn't thought of that :D:D

...I don't have to practice my slow driving skills and I can let it rip as I do everyday. I think the FEH will do much better this year and open some eyes for Ford.

I'm especially looking forward to seeing how you do this :)

Wish old GPSman1 could make the challenge!

Now, now... ;)

Looking forward to meeting & learning from you,

Hi Gary:

___This is going to be a great get together for HF2007! We have some of the best if not the best Insight, Prius, HCH and FEH pilots on the face of the earth coming together in one place and at the same time. Hot D@MN!!! I cannot wait to get a photo of all of you together for a nice News item.

___Are you game for Clinic instructing on Sunday morning? Rich and Debbie are already on the list and you are most certainly welcome to it as well! If only those coming to HF2007 knew what highly qualified instructors they will be seated next too no matter what they are driving … I could not have aligned all the planets and stars any better myself :D It had better not rain however :angel:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Gary:

___This is going to be a great get together for HF2007! We have some of the best if not the best Insight, Prius, HCH and FEH pilots on the face of the earth coming together in one place and at the same time. Hot D@MN!!! I cannot wait to get a photo of all of you together for a nice News item.

___Are you game for Clinic instructing on Sunday morning? Rich and Debbie are already on the list and you are most certainly welcome to it as well! If only those coming to HF2007 knew what highly qualified instructors they will be seated next too no matter what they are driving … I could not have aligned all the planets and stars any better myself :D It had better not rain however :angel:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Sorry Wayne, Rhonda already has me leaving for the Airport for a 6:30am flight on Delta to save a hundred bucks and not have to pick me up in WPB early Monday morning. I'll be there around 3pm on Thursday to make the get together Eric is arranging though.

Would it be possible to play the video of my driving if Debbie wants to shoot it during my drive? A picture is worth a thousand words anyway and I'll be explaining my actions on the video. This could be an addition to Debbie's Clinic instructing, and she will be able to explain the techniques I use by the end of my drive and answer questions. Hopefully we will all become better hypermilers after this Hybridfest event. A TV and a VCR to record my Video from my camera would need to be found by the locals. It takes a Blue Ray HD DVD recorder to make a HD Blue Ray DVD directly from my handycam, and that would be hard to come up with I'm sure.

This should be a very exciting event to say the least. Can't wait to meet Debbie, Rich and the whole gang. Special thanks to Debbie for letting me drive her FEH.

GaryG

I'm *so* excited about this! :):):):)

Gary & me with our different techniques for maximizing the FE of the FWD FEH & Rich with his for the AWD FEH :woot:

Wayne, I hope you can get a photo of the 3 of us with our 2 FEH's - we could literally be the poster-people for Ford's (& the world's :)) first American hybrid :D:D:D

Gary, I like the idea of recording your methods, & you recording mine - do you think maybe we should include Rich in his AWD FEH as well? Then we'd have both types covered - even better to show Ford, I think?

I can't wait - only 37 days to HF2007 :Banane44: (with apologies to Eric ;))

I'm *so* excited about this! :):):):)

Gary & me with our different techniques for maximizing the FE of the FWD FEH & Rich with his for the AWD FEH :woot:

Wayne, I hope you can get a photo of the 3 of us with our 2 FEH's - we could literally be the poster-people for Ford's (& the world's :)) first American hybrid :D:D:D

Gary, I like the idea of recording your methods, & you recording mine - do you think maybe we should include Rich in his AWD FEH as well? Then we'd have both types covered - even better to show Ford, I think?

I can't wait - only 37 days to HF2007 :Banane44: (with apologies to Eric ;))

The only problem of recording a 3rd drive would be timing all three of us if Rich has signed up for the MPG Challenge. I'm sure Rich would not want me to do his video because I would add 270 pounds to his FEH. You may want to look for someone smaller to video your drive also. I have no problem using my handycam for all three of us though.

Wayne had said awhile back that a video link in the article I wrote here at CMPG would be a good idea, and that was part of my plan also. This might help bring more FEH/MMH owners and buyers come to the site and join.

GaryG

The only problem of recording a 3rd drive would be timing all three of us if Rich has signed up for the MPG Challenge. I'm sure Rich would not want me to do his video because I would add 270 pounds to his FEH. You may want to look for someone smaller to video your drive also. I have no problem using my handycam for all three of us though.

Wayne had said awhile back that a video link in the article I wrote here at CMPG would be a good idea, and that was part of my plan also. This might help bring more FEH/MMH owners and buyers come to the site and join.

GaryG

Actually, mine may be videotaped anyway. One of the TV stations owns a FEH, and way back when Eric was arranging HF media, he talked to me about it, and challenged the TV crew FEH against mine in the MPG challenge, with the idea that they'll do it in their FEH with their driving style, and then I'd do it in mine, and we'd see who got the better FE. :D

So, if the TV crew has someone ride with me and ride with their FEH, that would cover me.

However, with all 3 of us doing it, I think that definately expands our horizons and the impact of the story.

If not, I'm sure we can get someone to go with me.