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Hello,

I am new to this forum and I have read through so many previous posts on similar topics but I am not sure of the exact steps to do next. To start with, I purchased a used 2003 HCH with 118K miles last November. The car has been driving great, it about 128k miles now and I have had no problems, averages 40 in city and 46 on Hwy. I had the IMA light & Check Engine light come on last week and when I took it to the dealer, he said that the IMA battery was deteriorating and needs replacement along with O2 sensor. He did give me an estimate of around 3K for the two replacements, which would cost more than half the trade-in value. What are my options at this point?

A). Go ahead with what the dealer said, call Honda to find out if they can cut me some slack and replace the IMA battery.
B). Trade-in the car and get a new car.
C). A friend of mine is willing to purchase this car and he resides in California. Would he be able to get the IMA battery replaced because of the 10yr /150k warranty in CA?
D). Continue driving without any changes. The car still runs great and gives good mileage.
E). Any other options?

Any inputs in getting a better picture would be much appreciated. Thanks :)

I'd think Honda should honor the warranty...car is less than 10 yrs old, did not sit for weeks, has less than 150,000 miles, you have not tampered with it. Keep calling Honda - different people if necessary.

By now I've figured the IMA light is simply to make it easy for Honda to know it's a warranty-eligible issue. While you did not mention the code, it's probably P1447 or P1433 (unbalanced battery - repairable), P1449 (overheated battery, will need replacing).

Again, approach Honda again. Don't reset the IMA light. You may want to go over their head.

If that does not work, the battery pack can be fixed by Ron for $750-1250 (www.hybrid-battery-repair) There are at least two members here that have fixed the battery pack themselves for only a few hundred dollars and taking a few weeks to do it. On a DIY, it's safely removing the battery pack, balancing every cell (time consuming), getting new sticks if one of the cells are bad.



I will be getting my battery pack fixed within the next year. Initially, the IMA light was as scary as "You have metastatic cancer"....I now view it as like a reversible adult diabetic condition.

I think the HCH was only covered under the 80K/8yr warranty? it is certainly worth asking the dealer about, though.

Thanks Chuck. Well, I called up Honda and they said my vehicle does not have any coverage. It was originally a certified used car with 7yr/100k warranty and the customer care rep said my vehicle was out of the coverage limits and there is nothing that Honda can do about this!

It is quite frustrating and more so because, the car seems to be doing well inspite of this IMA light and the charge levels for the IMA battery on my dash are consistently in the 70%-90% range. Is it advisable to continue driving with the IMA light on?

Is there any state that is not 10yr/150,000 miles?

Most states offer only 8yr/80k coverage. Only in states like CA, AZ and some others do they offer 10 yr/150k coverage. So, I am also not sure if a person purchases/gets this car from an out-of state seller and gets it registered in CA, would they be able to avail of the 10 yr/150k warranty extension? The guy I spoke with at Honda was not able to clarify on this.

What Chuck said.

With one correction: P1449 appears to indicate an imbalanced battery as well. The code is set when at least one cell exceeds 80°C, which is either caused by high SoC or high IR - either imbalance or a bad stick. Both repairable.

Yes, you could drive indefinitely with the IMA light on, and the only ill consequence is having a gutless 1.3L non-hybrid with a 12V starter. Also keep an eye on the charging system to make sure it's functional. If you decide to go that route, I may offer to buy your dead battery off you.

another option - I see an 'A' grade 2004 battery pack for $400 + ship on Car-part.com (and some others in the same price range). buy that and then sell off or recycle your old one and swap them yourself. If you follow the instructions it should be pretty easy to do.

You will need to do a top-off charge/balance on the bench before installing any junkyard pack that has been sitting for more than a couple weeks, or it will die quickly. But yes, that's a good option.

If you do go that route, do notice that not all HCH packs are the same. Specifically, the 2003-2005 model years used one type of pack while the 2006 and newer models use a different type.

Update on this issue:

I checked in with Autozone today to read the codes and it gave a P1166. They looked up the code on their computer and said it was something to do with my Primary HO2S - Oxygen sensor I guess. I asked them if the battery is working fine and they said this is the only code they got from my car, so it should be working fine.

I double-checked at another Autozone and it was the same result. Am I missing something here? The check engine light has been on since I purchased the car and I knew I had to replace the O2 sensor. I was only concerned since the IMA light came on suddenly after all these months. Is there anything else other than the error code that might point to be a bad battery? As I mentioned before, the vehicle is still running well.

I have a faint suspicion that the dealer might have been wrong. Of course, he did not mention the error codes when I asked for them.

Correct - P1166 IS NOT a battery or IMA problem - it's an emissions (O2 sensor) problem.

I'm so glad my PC give the code instead of a "Check Engine"....that is such a meanless message that causes panic. Check Engine could mean a loose gas cap, or it could mean pull over and get towed immediately to avoid damage.

Ok, so would it be worth replacing the O2 sensor and see if both the indicators go off? I will probably have to find out what the sensor costs(I am guessing $200+).

I can understand that the Check engine light comes on for the failed O2 sensor but why would the IMA light come on and still not throw a code?? Trying to keep researching and learning about this whole hybrid tech just gets my head more fuzzy :) :)

The urgency of fixing the O2 depends on if your area does emissions tests. Let's assume you are in Texas.

In Houston, D/FW, and Austin, you must pass an emissions test. For nearly the rest of Texas you could legally let it go, but keep in mind a bad O2 sensor won't give you the right fuel/air mix - meaning your FE could suffer or maybe something more serious.

....

A). Go ahead with what the dealer said, call Honda to find out if they can cut me some slack and replace the IMA battery.
B). Trade-in the car and get a new car.
C). A friend of mine is willing to purchase this car and he resides in California. Would he be able to get the IMA battery replaced because of the 10yr /150k warranty in CA?
D). Continue driving without any changes. The car still runs great and gives good mileage.
E). Any other options?

Any inputs in getting a better picture would be much appreciated. Thanks :)


As usual, I would take the overall condition of the car into account and project its potential viability over however long you would like it to be working for you.
This means that a well cared for car with more miles may often be a more attractive option for me than a lower mileage vehicle with a more dicey or uncertain history.

A few more notes:


Although not optimal at all, Option D is a more sustainable approach on a first generation HCH (like yours is) than on the newer HCH-2s. Has it has been said, keep an eye on the 12V battery and accelerated wear on the legacy starter as it was not designed for that type of a duty cycle.
Chuck's recommendation may be your better approach as it fixes any battery pack issues for a fraction of the price.
If I were to have a nicely cared for HCH-1 while on a budget, I would only look at a newer dealer replaced pack only as a personal investment with the intent of keeping the car for personal use. If I were to sell it soon, I would strongly consider Chucks recommendation.
Trading in a car with active DTC's on the account of a functional defect will seriously diminish its trade in value and I would resist the temptation... especially if getting the most dollar value is important to you... again, chuck's suggestion is very attractive.
If I recall correctly: Option C is not workable.
Cheers

MSantos

msantos,

thanks for your suggestions..well, now that I checked the code at Autozone and it showed a P1166, I think I will go ahead and replace the O2 sensor and see if the two indicators go off. Any recommendations for the sensor? Based on my initial research, I found a Denso sensor online and seems easy to install.

Hi Forrestgump:

Updates?

Thanks

Wayne

Hi,

I'm a newbie here and have a 2004 HCH Manual that just turned over 85,000 miles. I bought the car in 2006 with 53,000 miles, from a local Honda Certified Used Car dealer. The car has seen mostly urban driving cycles the past 2 years, with the occasional bi-monthly highway trip. A/C does see seasonal use in May-Sept.

On a side note: I recently replaced the under-hood 12V battery (this was NOT really necessary, I just wanted the peace-of mind with winter fast approaching),

And as far as I know the IMA (144V) battery module has never been replaced. The car performs well and typically gets an indicated 38 - 42 mpg in city use and close to 50+ mpg highway. (We do live at 5000 ft ASL, which reduces mileage and power.)

About a week ago the IMA and CHECK Engine Lights came on. (P1600 and P1433). At the time they came on the SoC dropped from 75% to roughly half that. Throttle response becomes noticeably sluggish, but the REGen/ASSist meter still works. And the SoC gradually moves up and down. The most I have seen it come back to is about 67 % when the codes are thrown. Is this a recal?

When I clear the codes, I observe the following: REGen/ASSist immediately at idle shows (GREEN) charge and the SoC rapidly comes up to 100% within a couple of minutes. When the car is driven, throttle response is crisp and instrumentation shows "like-new" REGen/ASSist and SoC behavior in urban driving.

Then, usually with a day or so (usually less than 20-miles of urban driving) the same codes return (P1600/P1433).

To the best of knowledge, the ECM has NOT been re-flashed or "Upgraded" by Honda (or anyone else).

1) Is there a way to determine the ECM/IMA Version level?

2) If Honda flashes the ECM, will it potentially mask the P1433 code? Making them less likely to replace the IMA battery of DC-DC converter under warranty? I've heard some speak of a Q49 Campaign to upgrade IMA software? Is that advisable? It appears the HCH-I IMA batteries have some similar reliability issues to the HCH-II and Insight-I?

3) What is actually happening when the P1433 code is thrown? It seems to put the IMA system into "LIMP", "LAME" or "LAZY" mode?

4) Does anyone have experience with Honda's Certified Used Car Warranty or Third-Party Warranties, with respect to IMA failures? AH tells me the IMA Battery is not covered under their CUC Powertrain warranty and that 85,000 is just beyond the mileage limit. Suspect the dealer won't be very helpful.

5) What is the downside to periodically clearing out the OBD-II DTC (CEL/IMA) codes?

Any advice (or dare I say Insights?) would be greatly appreciated.

Lee

The next time this happens, take it to your dealer WITHOUT clearing the codes so it can be covered under warranty.

Yeah, those two codes together usually indicate it's time to have the IMA battery serviced. You should try to get it covered under Honda's extended battery warranty. Also contact Hybrid-Battery-Repair.com , who offers refurb batteries at good prices. The owner is also very knowledgeable and helpful about Honda IMA warranties. If you're out of warranty, there are a few DIY options that you may find attractive.