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I am at a dealership waiting for financing.

Its a red 2000 Insight with 126k miles. Manual transmission. AC. It runs good and the car is in decent shape. Cracked front bumper but not bad. Few scratches and rock chips on hood and around the car. Price is $5992.

Looks good to me.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=281279745&dealer_id=69308&car_year=2000&rdm=1279903491783&lastStartYear=1981&num_records=25&model=INSIGHT&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&engine=&keywordsrep=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=HONDA&color=&keywords_display=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&position=top&position=top&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=distance&address=45694&advanced=&end_year=2011&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=92&standard=false

I'm not a car guy so I dont know much about buying used cars.

IMA battery is dead which is not uncommon on car lots. Drive it to see if the SOC recovers. Carfax the VIN to check history. It hasn't been babied with a lmpg of 49.1mpg. If it all looks good, offer $4500 and settle on around $5000.

Just so you know, "*FACTORY A/C*" is not "*SUPER RARE*" in these vehicles.

Everything that Msirach said, Plus.....

Make sure that the IMA light in bottom right of instrument cluster lights when ignition is on and that it goes off when the car is started/driven.

If you can, get a look at Honda service record to see when the batteries were replaced, if so. You might have to take the VIN to a Honda dealer to find out. The Carfax might tell you. Someone will know the answer to that one.

All-in-all, it is a nice looking car. Not sure what NADA book price might be but the numbers offered above sound about right. Welcome to the small and deminishing club. It is a little jewel from a far distant place and time:-)

Car fax show maintance and some standard replacements. Nothing to worry about at least I wont.

When the salesman drove it for me the battery soc looked OK from my end. Plus I'm not to worried about the battery anyway being this old. If needed I would just have Ron rebuild me a battery.

Looks like the loan is approved. Just waiting to finish up.

Good luck with it. Should be a great project. I'm looking for one of these myself. H

I'm looking forward to seeing an Insight with an enormous smile-shaped grille block, and tastefully done smooth wheel covers.

I'm looking forward to seeing an Insight with an enormous smile-shaped grille block, and tastefully done smooth wheel covers.

Give me some time and you will see it. :)


Just finished up the paperwork.

I'm getting it for $141.47 per month for 48 months. Well below what I was planning on.

I'll be stuck at the dealership for a few hours while I wait on my dad to come. I still cant drive stick and I need him to drive it back for me.

I plan on resetting the trip to see what MPG he can pull in. It will only be a 100 mile mostly highway trip so it better be good. :)

Jay, the mileage won't be spectacular until you get that SoC topped up. Once it is up to 18 bars it will typically stop force charging -- I recommend some light regen (just some engine braking so at highway speeds you can just let off the gas in 5th) to get it up to 19 bars. After it is topped up you should be able to hold lean burn (without a headwind) at 100mpg up to around 53mph or so on a flat.

Make sure those tires are aired up before you start out. The Insight responds a bit more than the typical car to high pressures. ;)

To start off clean, you might pull the negative cable off the battery for a few minutes. That will clear the memory of bad habits from the last few drives and sitting.

I'm not going to do anything to it until it get home because my dad will be driving it tonight. The down side is that it does not have stock tires. I dont remember what brand or type but I know they are not stock. I'll have to get them replaced when I can afford it.

To start off clean, you might pull the negative cable off the battery for a few minutes. That will clear the memory of bad habits from the last few drives and sitting.

I'll do that after I learn to drive stick. :D

I agree with all of the above. Mine went 262,000. Needed new battery at 186,000. There are sites which will repair the battery pack if it is bad, but check the VIN against the Honda Corp records and see if it has already been done, and if the upgrade of computer also was done. Ted

As Mike pointed out, 49.1 mpg lifetime is not that good. Unless the trips were short, I'd consider it borderline abusive treatment. (41 mpg lifetime is the worst I've heard)

I'd plan on replacing the batteries based on the lifetime mpg, the pictures, it sitting on the lot. You're getting a deal that even if you pay Ron the max of $1250 to fix the battery pack, it's still a good deal.

I'd get one of those OBDII units to see if it passes emissions...mine has a marginal catalytic converter and maybe O2 sensor.

The interior looks cleaner than mine. :o

I just put a plexiglas cover over the battery pack

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/plexiglass_cover.JPG

Just got back.

My dad got home with 59.5MPG over 116 miles. And he is no hypermiler.

The check engine light came on and I have to figure that out. The car still ran fine. I'm debating whether or not I should take my Prius dash apart to remove the ScanGauge to get the codes or to wait for Evan to return my SG after hes is done with it in the official plug in Prius.

Going to read the manual.

You can go to Autozone and have them pull the code. You will have to look it up though. Their definition will not be correct.

I might do that on my next day off if I don't get it from the SG.

I'm sure its something simple since the car ran good on the way down. I'll just have to check things in the morning. It could be something simple like a loose gas cap.


I need to figure out a custom license plate for the Insight now.

Since the car has been sitting for more than a few weeks waiting to be sold, I would definitely get a grid charger on the HV battery before you run it through its full range of SoC.

The car doesn't have a battery balancing routine, and when it sits, the individual cells with slower self-discharge end up at a higher SoC than the others. Running an imbalanced pack causes cell degradation. Also, a big pack can be an mpg advantage, especially if you have MIMA or mountains.

Call it overkill, but the next time I buy an Insight, I'll throw the battery switch to "off", drive it home as a 12V car, and run the grid charger/balancer for 36hrs before I use assist and regen.

Well all the goodies will have to come in the next few years when I get out of my debt. :)

Jay, so you don't go searching forever for that diagnostic port it is close to the console in the passenger footwell for the MY 2000 Insight.

Thanks. I did a search on that just a few minutes ago and it looks like they hid it pretty good. :)

Welcome to the group. At 128k it is just broke in. Hope the error code(s) are minor. For it to get top mileage most everything on the motor has to be working properly. As was said earlier, try to learn as much as possible on its maintenance history. Do you have the CarFax?
Is it possible to talk to the previous owner?

I think it would be cool to see how many Insights we can get at one place sometime.


Wayne

To start off clean, you might pull the negative cable off the battery for a few minutes. That will clear the memory of bad habits from the last few drives and sitting.

Yes, but be sure your have the anti-theft radio code before you do this;) There is a little card delivered with the car which has that information. If the card is gone, the dealer can recover the code for you.

Common codes on the Insight

P1447 (unbalanced battery), P1449 (overheated battery) - let Ron fix that
P0420 Catalytic converter or ECM needs an update

Welcome to the club Jay!

OK so I found something that I'm pretty sure is not stock and I dont know what it does.

There is a button on the lower right hand side near the steering wheel.
http://stuff.jaygroh.com/insight/iwis01.JPG

When I press the button when the car is on there is an LED that lights up and turns off when I release the button.
http://stuff.jaygroh.com/insight/iwis02.JPG


And here are two boxes that I'm pretty sure are not stock. One says something like Tachometer mod on the side. And there are a bunch of wire taps. They are under the steering wheel.
http://stuff.jaygroh.com/insight/iwis03.JPG

That's a head scratcher...

If it is a momentary button and the box says something about a tachometer perhaps it is related to extending AutoStop functionality in some fashion? Try pressing it and holding it while coasting in neutral and see what happens.

Considering the previous owner's LMPG, I doubt it's a FE improving device, especially considering the location of the button. My hunch is it's a homemade anti-theft device, that he probably disabled before selling it.

That wad of spaghetti and zip-ties isn't stock. Can we see a close-up?

It does not resemble anything in my car.

If the box has an input called "tachometer mode" it may be an after market cruise control. I once put one in an Echo and it had a similar input. Look for other cruise control controls, such as "set, resume, on/off" etc.

I now see that there are no labels. Try reading some of the notations on the box. If you can recover a company name, you might be able to google it.

If it is a cruise control, then you probably wouldn't want to use it except in the most level, moderate speed application. For FE an intelligent driver can almost alway do better than a cruise control.

Error code P1449 is what I got from the scan gauge. I think that one is the code I dont want to have right?

I'll try to get more info on the mystery boxes soon.

I'm going to try to drive it on my shot dead end street just to see if I can learn to drive stick.

That code seems to be battery related. :eek:

should I clear the code?

No! Take it right back to where you bought it and make them correct it. An Insight with a freshly refurbished battery for the price you paid is a steal!

The car was sold as-is no warranty. Personally I still think it was a good deal even if I do have to get a replacement battery and fix up a few things.

I'm guessing since this is a 2000 Insight there is no grace period on the battery warranty right?

Does that warranty even exclude the seller failing to disclose that he reset the CEL right before selling it to you?

Take your VIN to a Honda dealership and ask if it's under warranty. It's 10yr/150000mi, iirc.

P1449 is an overheated battery.

As others said, you might want to see if Honda will honor their warranty. I'd find out when it was build or originally sold to see if you are just inside the warranty.

All batteries heat up while charging, but bad ones are worse...the P1449 is a protection to prevent a fire in the back of your Insight. :eek:

Long before the battery ignites anything, it will discharge its electrolyte. If this happens faster than the electrolyte can be reabsorbed, irreversible cell damage is the result.

This code doesn't imply that the entire pack reached the requisite 80°C. Even a single cell with excessive SoC or IR will heat up sufficiently to set the code.

So I should just leave the code alone and take it to my local dealer then? Should I try resetting it just to see what happens? It will be about a week or two before I can get it to a dealer.

Using the battery will make it worse, so I wouldn't try very hard to drive it as a hybrid until you get the pack balanced.

If the CEL came on during regenerative braking, I'd venture to say you have one cell with a high SoC and a balancing should correct that particular problem. If it came on during heavy assist, you probably have high internal resistance and need a new stick. Just a hunch.

Well my dad was the one driving it home. I never actually drove the car while the assist and regen were working. I do know it was working before we left the dealership. or at least it appeared to work. Should I clear the code and see what happens? or wait and see what the dealer says? Like I said getting it to the dealer will take a week or two.

What if you throw in an assist/regen disable switch first, then clear the codes? Perhaps you could avoid nuking your high cell by using the switch to avoid regen when your SoC is high. Use the HV battery only for engine starts and to emerge from FAS, which is what you want to do for good FE anyway.

I would rig up an LED to come on when your battery fan does, so you know when to lay off the battery.

Get it to your dealer asap. It is still covered under the 150,000 mile 10 year extension for the hybrid system.

If you think you might want to try and get out of the deal: No later than tomorrow (time is critical), you might what to check with your state consumer protection department. You may have a certain amount of time to back out of used car deals.

If I remember the ad you did not buy it from a Honda dealer. Correct?

IMA light is not on? I would not reset it until a Honda dealer looks at it.

You might want to give Ron a call.


Wayne

I bought the car at Toyota Direct in Columbus Ohio. Everything looked OK when the guy drove it for me and it worked fine when my dad drove it home. But right as we got home the check engine light came on and the IMA light.

I don't want to return it. Even if I do have to get a replacement battery.

Ron said I should check with Honda to see if the warranty is still available for my battery. I plan on giving them a call first thing Monday.

Ok, I have been following this thread for its entirety and I have to ask... Who is Ron? :o

Back out? No. Call the seller and twist his arm. Worst he can do is nothing.

Unless of course Honda will take care of it for you, which is an adequate resolution.

Sounds like you have a good plan. Good luck.


Wayne

Ron, Ron Hansen...owner of www.hybrid-battery-repair.com, specializing in Insight and Civic battery packs, in NYC.

Ron, Ron Hansen...owner of www.hybrid-battery-repair.com, specializing in Insight and Civic battery packs, in NYC.

¡Gracias Señor!

Just check the build date of the car. It says 05/2000. I'm guessing it wold take another 2 months before it was sold. So My guess is that it may still be under warranty. If not I hope Honda has a grace period.

I did call my local Honda dealer to see about the warranty but I had to leave a message and I'm waiting on the call back.

Just check the build date of the car. It says 05/2000. I'm guessing it wold take another 2 months before it was sold. So My guess is that it may still be under warranty. If not I hope Honda has a grace period.

I did call my local Honda dealer to see about the warranty but I had to leave a message and I'm waiting on the call back.
What you need is the "in service" date, which any Honda dealer should be able to look up. If it is <10 years ago you should be covered.

If it is <10 years ago and the dealer or US Honda says no, we can help you find the Honda bulletin that says that the 10year/150K warranty was extended to cover Insights sold in all 50 states. Sometimes even US Honda can't find the relevant bulletin.

I found the bulletin. I think it was in the files here on this site.

I tihnk I found out what the mystery box is under the dash.

Its listed as airwolf and design tech.

A search for airwolf results in an automatic car starter.

And the switch is some kind of valet mode switch.

Still don't know what the other black box does. Only markings it has was the 555U.

An automatic car starter in a manual transmission? Thought that was impossible.

Well it looks like its also a car alarm.

I don't think that it is impossible for an automatic starter in a manual, just illegal.

unintended acceleration, anyone? :p

I don't think that it is impossible for an automatic starter in a manual, just illegal.

It is neither impossible nor illegal. My wife bought me one and had it installed in my Elantra about one year before I joined this site (after which I never used it again :o). It does require a bypass of the clutch interlock switch but they make that safe by insisting upon a particular sequence of events. In the case of my car, you had to arm the car for starting while off using the remote. Then when you come to a stop after driving the car you must leave the car in neutral and idling, put the emergency brake on, then remove the key while not touching any of the pedals. You then have 20s to exit the car -- after opening the first door, the next time all doors are closed the car locks itself, then turns off the engine, then beeps to let you know it is armed for remote starting.

If any of the pedals, gearshift, or emergency brake are fiddled after this (say by someone still in the car), the alarm goes off and the ignition system is disabled. Unlock the car without using the starter function and the remote starter is disabled until you go through the above routine again.

<shrug> Seems pretty safe to me (if fuel guzzling). It was nice while I used it to get the car cooled off and it had a 2 way remote so that I could do things like getting alerted when the alarm went off... or a cool knock feature so that I could know someone was at the car and unlock it for that person (if I sent him/her, that is!). I used it a few times during the day to be sure the car would start after work on really cold days (the parking lot was wide open and fairly windy... I did have issues starting the car a few times after a 10hr cold soak).

Convenient but a total waste of fuel. I look forward to the day when I have an EV that will let me precondition remotely... I'll just park where I can plug in. ;)

Just got the call from Honda. Car was delivered on 1-14-2001. Looks like I still have a warranty.

:Banane44:

My appointment is Friday.

Just got the call from Honda. Car was delivered on 1-14-2001. Looks like I still have a warranty.

:Banane44:

My appointment is Friday.

Congrats and good luck! :thumbs_up:

Jay may kill me for this nickname of his two red cars:

The Ambiguously Insight Duo :D

I love that cartoon. It was very funny. But "The Ambiguously Insight Duo" does not flow well.

I do need a name for my Insight. My Prius name is Infrared.

I also need a good vanity license plate. Since I have BOO GAS for the Prius I'm thinking HATE GAS for the Insight. Or try to get two plates that go together for both cars. Would people get GAS BOO if I put it on the Insight?

Well I got the bill from Honda. Here is what they said.

Found that battery control module and control unit (motor control module)
needs to be replaced. Battery control module is under extended warranty
but MCM is not. Total to replace $1028.10 + tax.

I seen where Ron said he sold the the MCM for $200. I sent an email off to him to see what I should do.

Overall, that sounds like good news.

I suspect the MCM is not really bad, but just updated out of warranty.


http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/naked_mima_copy.jpg

Hmm, and I sold my spare pair to somebody who wanted to sell them on Ebay. I got $100 for the pair.

I say, leave the old ones in place. Nothing wrong with them but the programming, as I understand it. The 2000 programming burns through battery packs faster but gives you better mpg than the newer programming.

So the MCM is not covered under the 10/150 even when it says it needs to be replaced under the service bulletin? I would think this should all be covered since they are all related.

Ron mentioned to me in a email about if I get tired of the new BCM to let him know because he as some older computers. I asked him about that but he never responded.

I'm wondering if I can have them just replace the in warranty parts? Is there any down side to the MCM thats in there now if it does not really need to be replaced?

OK so I have been searching for hours and I cannot find any information on why the BCM is covered under the 10/150 and the MCM is not. Can anyone here tell me this information?

The way I read the service bulletin is that the battery, BCM, and MCM will need to be replaced and according to the sample letter to customers these items will be replaced free of charge. Implying that all three are covered under the 10/150 warranty.

I will try to find my work order, but I am pretty sure the MCM was changed out too at 135,000 along with the BCM and battery for free.

Jay, your reading is correct. For later model (like mine), only two of the three need to be replaced (and only two were replaced in mine). It sounds to me as though someone hasn't noticed there is a difference between the the earliest models and slightly newer ones. I suggest you point this out to the SM as the service bulletin spells this out specifically. Compare the section for an '02 to the one for a 2000 and you'll see the difference.

Yeah I'm guessing the service manager either read it wrong or they are just trying to screw me out of $1000.

I'm going to call them first thing Monday.

Both of mine were replaced under warranty for my 2000 Insight. Keep us posted on your progress.

Well I just got back from my local Honda dealer and I got some good news.

First off they wont replace the MCM under warranty because of this updated service bulletin.

Service bulletin 04-028 updated april 30, 2010
http://stuff.jaygroh.com/insight/04-028.pdf

Now I could have argued with them about that and got the MCM replaced but from what I understand there is nothing wrong with my current BCM and MCM its just that the new ones more aggressively protect the battery. I'm not worried about protecting the battery with the new computers because I only have about 5 months left on the battery anyway if I get it replaced.

Here is the good news. I asked them if they would just replace the battery and they said they would.

So now I'm just waiting for them to get the battery and schedule an appointment to get it installed.

So I take it your MCM PN is one of the 3 listed in the linked PDF? If this is the case, why are they insisting it needs to be replaced in the first place?

In any case, it sounds like you've determined a satisfactory resolution. :)

I dont know what the part number is on mine but they said it needed to be replaced. I still don't understand why they claim the BCM is covered but not the MCM.

Even if they did replace the BCM and MCM I would have replaced them with the older versions anyway.

As long as they replace the battery I'll be happy.

Got the battery replaced today. On the way there I got 72.5MPG. Thats without the battery and I dont know how to drive a stick. :)

On the way back I was only able to get about 63MPG. Mainly because I did not know how the auto stop function and stalled the car a few times.

Anyway I made it back home with a full battery and a full tank of gas. Now I just have to lean to drive it. Then learn how to hypermile it.

You'll get the hang of it. :)

I'll second that.

You will have triple-digit trips.

I say if I can get 72.5MPG with out the help of a battery on about same roads as my normal commute I should be able to get pretty close to 100MPG if I learn to exploit the car.

My best in a regular Prius was around 70MPG. The insight was just easy. I did not even try that hard to hypermile because I was concentrating on not stalling the car.

Jay, the battery isn't going to help your mileage unless you install a plug and MIMA. Otherwise the same pitfalls as usual apply -- it costs more in terms of efficiency to charge the battery back up than if you never use it at all.

Well it should help me out with the auto stop since I dont know how to fully exploit the Insight. I think it might take me a year or two before I'm comfortable with the manual transmission and can start doing more advanced things.

I plan on buying MIMA before he runs out of them. Dont know when I will install it. Might be after I'm use to driving it first but I want to get it soon before they are all gone.

As far as plugging in I dont know if I want to turn it into a PHEV or not. I'm thinking if I do add a plug I will turn the car into an EV. I just dont know if I could do that if the car is still in working condition. Its such a great highway car I would hate to turn it into a local commuter. Although I think I could fit about 150 miles worth of batteries in the thing.

I would suggest you install a cal pod switch, your new battery will probably last forever and a day if you never really use it. My SOC is almost always full. Congratulations on the car, original insight is the only car I'd rather drive than my current car.

It took me a week or two to fully get the hang of driving a stick. If you can get an experienced driver to ride with you and give you a few pointers once or twice, that would be golden.

You'll love it.

AutoStop can be nice. In your car it can be triggered as high as 21mph -- get the car into engine braking and watch for fuel cut by looking to see if the instantaneous mileage bar graph maxes out. Once there, press the brake moderately and pop the car into neutral at the same time and hold the clutch pedal in -- it should drop straight to AutoStop if everything is at operating temp and you aren't running the AC. Keep the clutch pedal depressed and the car will keep the engine off even if you coast in neutral. If you enter AutoStop while on the brake pedal without the clutch pedal pressed, the engine will start up when you lift your foot off the brake.

There are other subtleties, but that should at least get you started.