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Hi Friends - Ok, we've chatted about this before. It seems to have gotten worse. The hybrid battery recals every day when I first start the car. On top of that, lately, when I start the car for the first time for the day, the ICE turns over like a regular car starting, something that I had never experienced with the HCH (2006 vintage). I assume it does this because the hybrid battery is COMPLETELY dead at start-up (regardless of where it was at shut-down). Now, my disclaimer is that I live in Houston, and it's crazy hot here.

None-the-less, at what point does this get to be a problem that Honda would attempt to fix? So far, they aren't interested in fixing it.

Thanks!

-E

It sounds like your 06 is beyond that point. My 06 pack has never lost its charge even after sitting untended for 2 mths. It has never used the starter to start the engine. H

Are you certain it isn't a weak 12V connection somewhere (ground strap)? Disconnecting the battery would cause the HV to show 0 SOC, but I don't know if that would force start off of the auxiliary battery... it doesn't seem to in my Insight.

Do you get any warning lights on the dash? Flickering lights ever?

Hi - Good questions. Brand-new 12V - to specs from Honda dealership. No flickering. I don't see a bad connection directly from the battery, but could be I suppose. I'll take a look, but I'm hesitant to think that's it. Recals have progressively happened more and more.

When I start the starter motor kicks over, but the hybrid battery doesn't show empty. It takes a while to drop down to 0. However, it acts like it is empty, and does it's forced recharge thing (while the hybrid battery screen drops from 5 bars to 0).

The problem is that no code is popping, so Honda doesn't want to deal with it.

I am moving to SoCal next week, maybe they know how to work on them there better than they do in Houston.

-E

Hi Evan;

I too, would point to a faulty or discharged 12V battery. Do you have a scangauge plugged in? If so, please keep it disconnected it for a couple days or so. Scangauges and other third party diagnostic equipment have been known to throw the HCH-II into a nasty fault routine once in a while.

However, at this stage I would perform a typical power reset on it. Please note that in order for this procedure to work well you need to keep the 12V battery unplugged for a good 10-20 minutes.

Also, look for an alternate Honda shop since some dealers are simply not worth the continued frustration. :(


Cheers;

MSantos

Thanks Msantos. I'll do a reset tonight. I haven't done one in a while.

Never thought of going to a non-dealer for potential warranty work.

After the initial re-charge in the morning (after 5 miles or so) the car gets very reasonable MPG (in the low 40s with AC blasting)...but unfortunately, because of all the recals, the overall average is around 36. No better than the Echo we upgraded from.

Cheers.

-E

Oh. No scangauge installed. The 12v is new, no more than 6 months old. Was never totally discharged. I'll check the connections.

-E

Sorry, my fault. I was not suggesting you should go to an non-dealer Honda shop. Instead, I would recommend looking for an alternate Honda dealer that cares enough to keep you happy.

Unfortunately, having a big "H" on one's dealership is no guarantee of service quality and it is still up to us to locate and support the better dealers.

It makes me wish for a community based "Recommend a Dealer" dealer-rating system. :o


Cheers;


MSantos

Got it. I'm hoping the folks in SoCal will be more likely to know how to service hybrids with this problem than folks here in Houston. I'll give it a go when I get there.

Thanks for your help.

-E

Not much I can add, but after the recal, does the car behave normal? i.e. the battery pack seem strong?

Thanks - Last time I performed a recal, perhaps 6 months ago, there was no change in the way the system operated. I'll try again tonight and see if there are any changes.

The frequency of recals has become more and more frequent, and the starter turning the engine over like a traditional car is a new development, but has happened for the last 10 days in a row.

-E

If your car is turning like a conventional car, your battery pack is either dead or offline.

Just like the circuit brakers in your home, there is a braker that the techs turn off before touching the battery (for obvious safety reasons). If left off, your IMA system is offline.

Speculation, but maybe this happened right after the car was out of the shop and they forgot something. :o

The fact that your conventional starter is starting the car first start each day (and it's not artic weather) means something is wrong. If your dealership fails to acknowledge that they have failed you, and have failed to live up to their obligations as a Honda franchise.

Per MSantos, I would try another dealership, and at the same time try to get through to corporate Honda.

As long as you're speculating as to what might be going on, maybe keep in mind: your IMA battery might not be "dead every morning", in particular if there are no warning lights showing. Yes something is haywire, but it could be elsewhere in the electronics, or a combo of weak battery and something else.

Own 2003 HCH 5spd - my battery was being drained each night (different weather conditions) I believe partly because of the cooling fan continuing to run for quite a while after I shut off the car on my way back from work each day. I can force the fan to shut off by restarting the car immediately and then turning the fan dial off and temp knobs off, then shut off the car again. The cooling fan under the hood also shuts off immediately after shutting off the car, and my car has almost full battery when I go to work the next morning!!! I realize the battery is getting old, and probably this fan is being run after shutting off the car initially to "cool the assist battery"(?) or other components, but it runs for quite a while unless I use the above procedure. My thoughts is that this is a software glitch or some other component sensor that is defective.

Any thoughts on this? Try this and see if your battery remains high the next morning!

During the week, the IMA always starts my HCHII, but every Monday morning the conventional starter does (if I don't drive Saturday/Sunday). I have no idea why the battery would drain with no load on it. I would love to put current and voltage logger on it and see if there is current draw the whole time, or just shortly after shut-off. I'm suspecting its the whole time because like I said it only happens after 2 days of OFF.

Maybe a weak cell is what drains the battery slowly?

Actually, you could be right but for a different reason than you think. A weak cell may not necessarily self discharge more quickly but it definitely could have lower capacity. That will effectively limit the capacity of the entire pack and thus a normal self discharge rate may take it down enough to trigger the low voltage software.

Your pack might benefit from a balance charge of the cells to get everything back in sync but that probably won't completely fix your issue. Perhaps it is time to start looking for battery replacement sources? http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/ is one such source and they should soon be offering the BetterBattery (TM) for your model -- it is comprised of brand new (not new old stock) cells of a new chemistry with higher capacity and better charge/discharge characteristics than the original pack in your HCH had when new.

Conventional starter in the morning is exactly what happened to my 2006 HCH. I had to leave it with the dealer for multiple weeks of testing and communication with Honda Corporate, in order for them to replace the IMA battery. Doesn't happen anymore with the replaced battery, but FE didn't get any better. Good luck.

My 2006 has similar issues. I have had to start with the conventional starter multiple times, but it was after sitting for several days or after keying off at a stoplight shortly after a recal. I almost always get a recal within a few minutes of starting my car. I also get recals if I have to merge into traffic, requiring moderate assist.

On Sunday, I performed a power reset procedure. I drove around to top off the charge and parked it at 8 bars. The next morning, I had 8 bars and drove on a mostly downhill route to an interstate. I was still at 8 bars when I reached the interstate. (I was able to avoid assist and was able to charge often.) As soon as I had to mildly accelerate on the interstate to reach speed, I got another recal and dropped directly from 8 to 2 bars.

I have yet to get a code. I just hope I can get this taken care of before my extended warranty runs out. I'm at ~74K and have the 7 year/120K Honda Care. I guess I am good until April 2013.

RLC - I do have a replacement battery, but I've delayed installing it because I wanted to give time for the new software to see if it can fix the issues. I think it did improve things somewhat, but I am almost at 100k miles now and I will replace the original battery with a used one I got from a 2008 with like 25k miles. I can then take apart the original and see if there really is a cell issue.

Good to hear that you have a fallback option!! Do please be sure to get that replacement pack charged fully with a low current (left for a good while topping) so that all the cells can be brought into balance before you install it in your car -- one start even is all it takes to cause a cell reversal in a low or severely unbalanced pack, though self discharge won't hurt it. Get it charged before putting it in the car and you should be just fine no matter how long the pack sat unused.

Just to rant a little: the above 3 posts reflect owner maintenance effort way above-and-beyond what should be required. This is the sort of effort typically required by the owner of some classic car, long out of production. And these batteries are still under "warranty", if I'm not mistaken.

I can then take apart the original and see if there really is a cell issue.

Carefully, very carefully. The packs have more than enough voltage and amperage capacity to make you very, very dead.

There used to be instructions on the web somewhere describing how to do this safely, and it involved some odd tools which I recall I didn't have. Nonconducting screwdrivers? Something like that.

Good to hear that you have a fallback option!! Do please be sure to get that replacement pack charged fully with a low current (left for a good while topping) so that all the cells can be brought into balance before you install it in your car -- .

If it has been sitting for a long time with a dead cell it may not come back even with slow charging.. but there is only one way to know.

the used one is in great shape. the seller says he charged it every week and when I received it, it was 162 volts. I've been charging it every 3 weeks. It is holding the charge very well and barely drops at all

I plan on keeping the HCH-II till it falls apart, thats why I bought the extra battery. I drive 300 miles a week just for work and i'm really happy with the mileage

My '09 didn't do this when the pack was on its way out or after it popped the IMA light

I'm really liking what I see about the BetterBattery's performance capabilities. It will definitely be on the short list if my pack ever dies. However, the $1800 for the BetterBattery makes me hope that isn't for quite some time; and it shouldn't since it was replaced under warranty by the previous owner under warranty just 2 months before I bought it.:)