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View Full Version : Totally New Small Honda Hybrid Out 2009 or 2010


Chuck
01-09-2007, 08:42 AM
New Honda described as like an Insight that can seat five - larger - more mainstream (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16526204/site/newsweek/page/2/)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/smdj_article_62721_1_red_honda_fit_8_11_2006.jpgKeith Naughton, Newsweek - Jan 8, 2007

Falling gas prices have taken some of the steam out of hybrid car sales lately. But you wouldn’t know that from all the buzz about hybrids at the opening day of the Detroit Auto Show. First, GM introduced its Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid concept. And then Honda CEO Takeo Fukui revealed in an interview with NEWSWEEK that his company is developing an all-new small hybrid car that he described as a five-passenger version of its quirky two-seater, the Insight gas-electric car. But unlike the Insight, which sells in small numbers to die-hard greenies, Fukui says this new Honda hybrid will be aimed at mainstream car buyers when it hits the road in two or three years. “Hybrid technology is very strong and proven technology for improving fuel economy,” he says. “And we won’t relent in our efforts.”

For Honda, this new hybrid could finally be the answer to the megawatt popularity of the Toyota Prius, which controls more than half the market for hybrids in the U.S. Even though the Honda Insight was the first hybrid on the U.S. market when it launched in 1998, the Prius, with its larva shape and 60 miles per gallon fuel economy, has come to define hybrids in America. Unlike the cramped little Insight, the Prius offers the five-passenger spaciousness of a Camry, with gas mileage better than its smaller sibling, the Toyota Corolla. By contrast, Honda’s hybrid version of its five-seat Accord model flopped in the market, Fukui admitted, because it didn’t deliver the good fuel economy hybrid buyers expected. Lately, though, sales of all hybrids have slowed as gas prices have fallen back toward $2 a gallon.

Honda’s new hybrid, though, won’t be a version of anything else in its lineup. Instead, like the Prius, Honda’s new hybrid will have its own design from the wheels up. “We can envision something close to the Insight with five-passenger capacity and a relatively low price for mass-market consumers,” says Fukui.

How low will the price be? Honda won’t say. But the company offers a clue in how it describes the car. Code-named “Global Small Hybrid,” Honda’s new car will be about the size of its tiny Fit model, which is positioned just below the subcompact Civic in size and price. The Fit starts just under $14,000. So even with the $3,000 or $4,000 premium you pay for a hybrid, this new Honda could be priced below $20,000, potentially making it the least expensive hybrid on the market.

It also could be among the most miserly on gas—even topping the Prius. The Honda’s unique body shape and propulsion system will be designed to maximize mileage, company officials say. “We’re going to take a dedicated hybrid platform and give it great functionality, great style and make a no-compromises high-fuel-economy car,” says John Mendel, Honda senior vice president for product development. “It will have the highest fuel economy you can get for a hybrid in that (size) of car.” (It won’t, however, be a plug-in hybrid like the Volt, Mendel says, because that would require a breakthrough in battery technology that would delay Honda’s plans.)

Honda has high hopes this hybrid will be a home run. In fact, Fukui expects to sell as many as 100,000 models annually, nearly matching the 107,000 Prius models sold in America last year. (By comparison, Honda’s current top-selling hybrid, the Civic, sold 31,253 models last year.) Eventually, Fukui expects his hybrid model could sell double that amount. “Because hybrids have become so popular,” he says, “it is quite feasible to sell 100,000 to 200,000 … So when we start from there, we can afford to pay for a new body style that is exclusive to the car.”

Hybrid sales reached a record 191,000 models in the U.S. in 2006. But that still accounts for only a little over 1 percent of the 16.5 million autos purchased in America last year. Toyota, the most bullish hybrid proponent, sees the U.S. market for the gas-electric models growing to 300,000 this year. Toyota Motor America President Jim Press told NEWSWEEK that every model in his company's lineup will eventually come in a hybrid version. "The take rate on hybrids will accelerate as fuel prices increase and we focus on reducing our dependence on foreign oil and reducing carbon dioxide,” a leading cause of global warming, he says. "So everything is converging to where the solution is hybrids."

Normally, Honda would never reveal so much about a car that likely won’t hit the showroom until 2009 or 2010. But with Toyota running away with the hybrid market—and nervous consumers demanding more fuel-efficient models—Honda is trying to prime the pump and remind the public that it was selling hybrids before they were cool. “We think this could be a huge opportunity for us,” says Mendel. “It’s our next-generation view of hybrids.” In a few years, Honda will have a chance to see if its view squares with that of the car-buying public.

antrey
01-09-2007, 11:14 AM
If the Prius III offers plug in capability, Honda will continue to play catch up unless the price is much lower than the Prius III.

Chuck
01-09-2007, 11:32 AM
If the Prius III offers plug in capability, Honda will continue to play catch up unless the price is much lower than the Prius III.

That's very true.

Honda needs to upgrade or replace the IMA so they can also offer a PHEV .

Chuck
01-09-2007, 11:38 AM
Another point relating to the Insight lesson: can Honda find a way to make this new hybrid lighter without using expensive materials? Aluminum ran the cost of producing the Insight up. We discuss propulsion technology (hybrids, diesels, fuel cells....), but reducing the weight is also a big factor, esp. in stop-and-go traffic.

brick
01-09-2007, 12:08 PM
I think it's funny that GM and now Honda have started saying "we could build a PHEV but we need advanced battery technology...so we won't build it." And yet Toyota will probably just shrug and do it anyway. It doesn't really compute...do they think it isn't feasible or are they just worried about driving up costs?

On another note, I'm really looking forward to seeing this new Honda. C'mon, give us back our lean burn!

Chuck
01-09-2007, 12:17 PM
I'd like to find something where Honda is giving up on plugin hybrids - that would be very disappointing. Even without a serious EV mode on he IMA , adding more batteries as if it was a pluging hybrid would greatly improve ICE efficiency by allowing it to run at it's optimum cruise speed. It would still not be as good as a true plugin, but it would close the gap.

lightfoot
01-09-2007, 02:22 PM
Sorry but the swish in this article bothers me:

(1) "But unlike the Insight, which sells in small numbers to die-hard greenies" - it's not sold any more (surprising that a veteran Detroit journalist does not know this), plus "die-hard greenie" doesn't accurately describe the owners I know, including myself - die-hard greenies would be riding bicycles probably - "fascinated with mpg would be more like it"

(2) "unlike the cramped little Insight," - are the Corvette, BMW Z3/4, Boxster, and the Mazda Miata also "cramped"? - I find the Insight quite comfy - different car, different purpose from a 5-seater (mainly entertaining commuting in my case)

(3) No mention of the HCH here (though it is mentioned above) so he makes it sound like Honda offered only the Insight and the HAH and therefore missed the mark.

(4) "So even with the $3,000 or $4,000 premium you pay for a hybrid" - this has been debated back and forth, depending on which hybrid, which models are compared with which and whether tax breaks and fuel costs are factored in (and other things), so it shouldn't be stated as a simple fact.

Maybe I expect too much from journalists, but I used to do it as a sideline and I'd hope I would have avoided all this spin.

Chuck
01-09-2007, 02:26 PM
lightfoot, he also wrote the Volt article - see my notes following it.

AshenGrey
01-09-2007, 04:05 PM
Well... If I'm going to blast GM for making "releases" for 2010, then I should be consistent and give Honda a blast as well. So here goes:

Why is it going to take three years to adapt an IMA to a car that looks 90% like a Honda Fit? The Fit is already a known quantity (in other words, it sells really well and looks nice.) The Fit is already a reasonably fuel-efficient car. The Insight is also a known quantity (so it didn't sell well, but it was reliable long-term). Honda demonstrated with the Insight that they could make a very, VERY small hybrid car.

So why wasn't there a hybrid Fit launched at the same time as the conventional Fit? Honda has the know-how. But for some reason, I have to wait three years to buy a hybrid in hatchback format that isn't a Prius (thus won't cost $26k and take three months to get.)

I hope the release is closer to 2009 than 2010. I hope that Honda doesn't get sidetracked by million-dollar FCVs like GM has.

Chuck
01-09-2007, 04:13 PM
Honda has gotten things wrong in the past, but on the whole they have put out a lot of good things - we will see.

Building a hybrid from the ground up will make the car better than just a "bolt-on" to a Fit.

If you read the article carefully, you are going to question a Insight-sized car (or slightly bigger) than can seat five - I'm not beleiving everything in that article.

Some upgrades to the IMA would be helpful - I think that's the real issue - making it more robust and affordable.

lightfoot
01-09-2007, 04:25 PM
Characterizing the Insight as "a very, VERY small hybrid car." seems extreme. Mine has more interior and luggage room than my sister's BMW Z3. So is the Z3 miniscule? If so, how about the Smart Car or the Bugeye Austin Healey Sprite or the original Mini? Microscopic?

Having had both, I'd say the Insight is roughly equivalent to the CRX, perhaps a tad smaller.

It WILL be interesting to see what Honda comes up with for this new hybrid. I wonder if it will use composites to achieve weight savings.

Chuck
01-09-2007, 04:42 PM
Having had both, I'd say the Insight is roughly equivalent to the CRX, perhaps a tad smaller.

That is a very accurate statement. Take my 1988 CRX HF and raise the level behind the seats in the hatchback area about 18 inches and that's the same area as the Insight.


Materials are interesting - how can do save weight and not run the price up? Aluminum is pricy.


If someone took a 88-91 CRX HF, replaced the steel with aluminum, put in a hybrid powerplant, there would not be very much difference with the Insight from the basics standpoint.

msantos
01-09-2007, 06:24 PM
I think it's funny that GM and now Honda have started saying "we could build a PHEV but we need advanced battery technology...so we won't build it." And yet Toyota will probably just shrug and do it anyway. It doesn't really compute...do they think it isn't feasible or are they just worried about driving up costs?

On another note, I'm really looking forward to seeing this new Honda. C'mon, give us back our lean burn!


Toyota has already been quoted (and continues to do so) that it is VERY unlikely that they will be offering a plug-in hybrid any time soon- they will continue to look into it though. They also claim that the current and even upcoming battery technology is what makes the prospect very difficult and unlikely. This type of information, while not conclusive is still likely to disapoint many people who were hoping for the option.

Nevertheless, while battery manufacturers are attempting to ramp up production to make up for the increasing demand for today's hybrids, they all seem agree that they cannot meet the quantities and quality yields required by plug-in hybrids anytime soon. They consistently state that a significant breakthrough is needed before they can achieve that baseline.

Oh well...


Cheers;


MSantos

Chuck
01-09-2007, 06:33 PM
Toyota has already been quoted (and continues to do so) that it is VERY unlikely that they will be offering a plug-in hybrid any time soon- they will continue to look into it though.

In the meantime, it could still be worthwile to have a plug-in battery pack and operate in "mixed mode" more often. The advantage is the ICE could be running more at cruising when it's most efficient.

msantos
01-09-2007, 06:55 PM
In the meantime, it could still be worthwile to have a plug-in battery pack and operate in "mixed mode" more often. The advantage is the ICE could be running more at cruising when it's most efficient.

Very true.

But that will likely be taken up by the after-market adaptations that a lot of companies are tooling up for. Many of these companies are jokeying up for the best battery yeilds from the major battery manufacturers. They are walking through the door and offering good sums for guaranteed supplies and they are backed up by very strong venture capital funding to ensure that. Auto manufacturers privately admit that attempting to compete with a growing crowd of venture capitalists pushes the market prices way up and depletes the high yield battery supplies that they would need to sustain an assembly line of plug-in hybrids.

Apparently, there's no shortage of people willing to play for a plug-in conversion, and the after-market modders seem to own the game for now. As I fear, unfortunately for Joe six-pack, buying a plug-in ready vehicle from a well known manufacturer will remain a dream for a while longer.

Cheers;

MSantos

brick
01-09-2007, 07:26 PM
Toyota has already been quoted (and continues to do so) that it is VERY unlikely that they will be offering a plug-in hybrid any time soon- they will continue to look into it though. They also claim that the current and even upcoming battery technology is what makes the prospect very difficult and unlikely. This type of information, while not conclusive is still likely to disapoint many people who were hoping for the option.


Yeah, a half hour after I made that statement I read the other article. Oh well. Either way I can't wait to see what Toyota and Honda will be offering in two or three years.

Chuck
01-09-2007, 08:47 PM
MSantos informs me this car is not going to look like the Fit.

The European Civic (http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/06/c2.jpg) is closer, he says.


The more we discuss this article, the more obvious the info on this new Honda is a teaser.



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