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Getting tired of my incessant hybrid questions yet? I have another.

I think the HCI-I with MT would do nicely for the rural segments of my commute since I could ride lean-burn while cruising along with traffic at 40-50mph. And I initially thought that it would be a better choice than a Prius II for interstate driving (half or maybe more than half of my total mileage) since power takes a simpler path from the cylinders to the road. But I have read here that lean burn could be really touchy at my usual 60mph freeway cruising speeds. Some have mentioned 55mph as the point at which it cuts out on a flat road, lower in sub-optimal conditions. That tells me that peak FE could suffer a little bit, particulary considering its slightly higher final drive vs. the CVT-equipped HCH variants. Is this something that I should be very concerned about?

One effective way to combat this, of course, is with a High Speed Pulse & Glide. Right now I don't do it on a regular basis because I have an inherent aversion to doing things that the Accord just wasn't designed for. But how would that work in a HCH-I? Does it maintain power steering and brakes if the driver keys-off at speed? That would make me much happier. To the best of my recollection it is also capable of deactivating 3 out of 4 cylinders at zero load. Could one get reasonably close to HS P&G numbers by riding the edge between regen and assist?

I have been using a figure of 55LMPG when running the economic projections vs. the Accord. But my true goal is to develop well beyond that with the right vehicle. I have to ask about the details because it would probably take me 100s or 1000s of miles behind the wheel to figure out if I'm being realistic. I appreciate all the help I've been getting!

Hi Tim:

___I thought you were going to ask that question and I replied in the Insight CVT thread.

___Here are the pertinent parts from that post …

___About the HCH-I. I have driven Tom’s 03 CVT for about 200 miles and all I can hopefully provide is that she allowed me 72 mpg’s on the way out to a P&G testing ground and 77 mpg’s back cruising down the Interstate and with very few tricks thrown at her other then DWL and keeping my speeds between 48 and 55 mph in light Chicago traffic. Throw in some P&G for a short 100 + mpg segment, HS P&G where those opportunities present themselves, plus some minor drafting and I would imagine a 70 + lmpg for those really wanting to push it with a mostly highway commute such as yours. For those that do not, a more normal 45 - 50 lmpg depending on their city/highway mix and daily destinations distance from home. I believe you would live in the upper 10% because of your ability to push the Accord so you should possibly expect a 60 lmpg more then likely? Low 70’s as a peak in the summer months and maybe low to mid 50’s in the trough of winter would be my guess based on your Accord experience. The 1.3 in leanburn at a steady load cruise is a sight to behold while behind the windscreen and only the Insight 5-speed can perform similarly while out on the highway! And AS (Autostop) really works to save fuel at stop lights and signs if you are not willing to run her through a FAS.

___The stick is rated higher on the highway then the CVT’s. With your capabilities and techniques, I believe a 60 lmpg is in the bag with you behind the wheel. Leanburn does not disappear entirely at 60 - 65 mph but you most certainly will not be seeing the iFCD camped at 80 mpg at those speeds either :( Lakedude may be the guy to contact about steady load 60 – 65 mph cruise given he owns the MT version of the HCH-I.

___About HS P&G. Here we have to be careful because without the Assist disable mod, the pack draw on every one of those pulses is relatively large and you can expect the forced charge to begin within 2 or 3 miles. I know RJ runs FAS after FAS through what sounds like a mostly city commute so more then likely he is placing the SoC into the forced charge region and just letting it sit there. I am not so sure I would ride the pack like that myself but once down there, you can P&G to your hearts content and everything works like it is supposed to!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne. Thanks once again for the response(s). It looks like I was typing out the first post in this thread at the same time you were replying to the Insight thread. (I figured it would make sense to start a new thread since I keep jumping between vehicles.) You have given me a lot to chew on, and I hope LakeDude has a chance to respond as well given his accomplishments with the Civic.

I just got off the phone with one of the local Honda dealers. They have an '05 MT that's out of my price range, but I have an appointment to see it at 10AM anyway :D.

ohh oh. Don't bring your check book or any credit cards.

Don't worry, I have reasonably good restraint when it comes to salesmen. Usually they irritate me and I have to force myself to go back if what I wanted was good enough. The only reason I'm going to see that one in particular is because it's 5 miles away, and I figure it's best to see a clean one for the sake of a better first impression.

Getting tired of my incessant hybrid questions yet? I have another.

I think the HCI-I with MT would do nicely for the rural segments of my commute since I could ride lean-burn while cruising along with traffic at 40-50mph. And I initially thought that it would be a better choice than a Prius II for interstate driving (half or maybe more than half of my total mileage) since power takes a simpler path from the cylinders to the road. But I have read here that lean burn could be really touchy at my usual 60mph freeway cruising speeds. Some have mentioned 55mph as the point at which it cuts out on a flat road, lower in sub-optimal conditions. That tells me that peak FE could suffer a little bit, particulary considering its slightly higher final drive vs. the CVT-equipped HCH variants. Is this something that I should be very concerned about?

One effective way to combat this, of course, is with a High Speed Pulse & Glide. Right now I don't do it on a regular basis because I have an inherent aversion to doing things that the Accord just wasn't designed for. But how would that work in a HCH-I? Does it maintain power steering and brakes if the driver keys-off at speed? That would make me much happier. To the best of my recollection it is also capable of deactivating 3 out of 4 cylinders at zero load. Could one get reasonably close to HS P&G numbers by riding the edge between regen and assist?

I have been using a figure of 55LMPG when running the economic projections vs. the Accord. But my true goal is to develop well beyond that with the right vehicle. I have to ask about the details because it would probably take me 100s or 1000s of miles behind the wheel to figure out if I'm being realistic. I appreciate all the help I've been getting!

Brick

Looking at raw mpg numbers IMO isn't right given your current bench mark for Accord. Percentage might be better. If I looked at percentage of my mpg when driving the Accord verse's the Civic full time. The Accord would edge out the Civic. Given the daily grind I drive and where Im likely to go. The Accord wins out over all. Man is that a hard pill to swallow.

Looking at current hybrid offerings. I get a sick mind set of cattle led to saluter. Except for the Accord hybrid. Of which I don't think its worth the money. The Insight and HCH1 have some relevance for me. But no where near worth dumping my current stable for. And there is NO WAY I would dump our Accord for a hybrid anything other than a Accord hybrid I4 done to my spec. ( praying ) Then if it does happen it will be, I fear a cattle led to saluter type car. ( darn it :( )

I went as far as to put a deposit on a 06 Insight 5mt with air this year to have to cancel the order because of a family problem. The $20k was needed else where. That wont happen again!!. Ive asked my dealer to keep me advised on Insight 5mt or HCH1 5mt with no results. There seem to be alot of CVT cars out there. But there not worth a plug nickel to me.

If you want a MPG monster I would be talking to Dan and offering him $$ for his VX. If I hadnt bought my wife a new bed room suite and new dinning room table and chairs last friday. I would have already struck a deal with him.

Your Accord will do anything you ask it and alot more than you will ever ask of it. :) There isnt a smallish sedan, coupe or hatch made that will keep up, out run or give better mpg by percent. Well maybe a TDI or a Si Hatch/ep3.

I too am in the market for a 5mt Insight or HCH1. But I wont pay over 8k for one and it better have less than 40k miles on it. I wont pay for hype. Thats why Dans VX could be a big score for members of certain internet sights. :) The hype $ for hybrids in my mind is created by drivers. Not the EPA or tax breaks.

In my mind your a top Accord driver. I hope the skill set stays with you no matter what you drive. :)

psy

What do you guys think about an '03 with ~75,000mi, could probably get it for under $10k? (Clean CarFax at least.) Non-PZEV would be a deal breaker but let's assume for a moment that it's PZEV. I could actually come away from that deal without putting up any cash, which is a plus.

Consider 3k for a VX which is good for 80-85 MPG at your 45-50 speeds, 70ish at 55 and 55MPG at 75. A VX can maintain leanburn up to 80 MPH on a calm day. Yes, no AC or cruise control, but you won't find a car that will FAS as well, save the Insight of course. The best part is that this car has been fully depreciated and may appreciate during periods of high fuel prices. The oxidation at the real wheel wells, I will throw in at no extra charge.:)

Hi Tim:

___Now you are talking! There is Dan’s VX and then an HCH-to consider … Is the HCH-I close by so you can do an inspection? Press up the Dunlop’s or Bridgestone’s to at least 44 #’s (the Bridgestone’s are rated for 51 max sidewall … or is it the Dunlop’s?) and run it up to 55 + mph on an Interstate. Wait until the SoC has climbed to 1or 2 bars from the top and back it off to 50 - 55 while DWL and watch the iFCD. It should climb and camp at 80 mpg’s. Make sure it runs straight and true. After you have that out of the way. Get back into town … From a standing start cycle the pack from the top to ~ 5 or 6 bars. At that point, you should see forced charging until the pack is back up over 10 of 20 bars while the ICE is running. Let it charge all the way up by getting back on the highway and taking a fast cruise. Once back up to 18 or 19 bars, run your 60 – 65 mph and it will tell you what she is worth in your locale.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Dan,
The VX is certainly one of the finest FE machines money can buy right now, and economical to boot! You can't beat the simplicity of Hondas from that generation and that's a big plus for a DIYer. But I'm held back by not wanting to give up my side airbags and a few of the creature comforts that I'm used to. (Except for the moon roof...stupid thing reduces head room to the point that my hair brushes up against it. Rattles if I slide back the panel to get more room. Can't win!) But your offer of free oxidation is incredibly generous, and I am humbled. ;) But in all seriousness I really hope that it goes to a CleanMPG member.

Wayne,
Thanks for the tips for the test drive. I'm going to have to memorize that and hopefully they will be kind enough to let me give it a thorough workout. I don't suspect they'll decline if I explain what I'm doing and why. But the beauty is that this is the second closest HCH on my list, and is right off my work commute! I have easy access to the highway portion as well as enough miles of the rural roads to get an idea of what she's worth. I'll have a look after I've had my fun with the "pretty" one. Just keep your fingers crossed for me that she hasn't been beaten to hell!

so did you buy it lol? I KNOW I DID hahaha..... c'mon take the plunge!!!!!! be in debt like me!!! and you'll never have freak out drives ever again!

and you'll never have freak out drives ever again!

Oh, I don't know about that. The problem with doubling your gas mileage and then having a bad segment is that it looks twice as bad on paper! The need for peak FE only grips harder as the numbers get bigger, not the other way around.

And I despise debt. I did it for the Accord and managed it fine, and I'll do it when I buy a house obviously. But the idea of taking out a loan on this particular occasion doesn't sit well with me unless it somehow saves me cash in the long-run. (For example, if the cost of the loan is significantly outweighed by the benefit of taking the time to sell the Accord privately.)

Anyway, T-minus 2:43 and counting :D. I'm looking forward to seeing the cars but I'm really afraid that something is wrong with the one listed at $10,500. There's no way that price is right for a car in good condition. Maybe it was a smoker car or something because the pictures look alright.

**EDIT**

Dammit. The price must have been a mistake because they changed it to $11995 this morning. I'll look anyway but that's too bad. (Still a lot better than blue book, at least.)

I'm back! Get comfy because this is going to be a long one. My girlfriend and I just had a look at both cars, the first much more thoroughly than the second. The '05 was at Manchester Honda in CT, where I met Joe (the sales guy) to have a good look at it. He was very easy going and knew his stuff about Honda hybrids, so we had a pretty good chat. I made it a point to be very up-front about why I was there and he didn't didn't seem to mind a bit. So we had a look.

This car was a silver '05 with 41kmi, and listing for $18895 with good but not excellent paint and interior condition, and a set of mounted snows thrown in. Not really a problem for me but I would expect a **pristine** car for that kind of money. But that aside, my first impressions were very favorable. I don't find the seats to be as supportive as those in the Accord but the driving position is certainly no worse. The lack of moon roof gives me more headroom, so to me it didn't feel cramped at all. More time adjusting the seat back might have made it more comfortable. (For the sake of reference, I'm 6'1 bordering on 6'2 so I would say they did a very good job with the ergonomics for a car this size.)

Aesthetically, I think that the gauge cluster is darn near a work of art. I don't think it has anywhere near the same "curb appeal" of the Accord, though. But I tend to value the view from the driver's seat much more than that. So I'd call it even on that front.

The drive. Ahh, the drive. The first thing I notice is a very short, very light, very quick clutch by comparison to the Accord. I prefer the Accord's longer, heavier, easier to feel clutch. But I could get used to that in a couple of days without issue. Power is outstanding from the point of view of the hypermiler. Low end torque is fantastic for a 1.3L, and it didn't have any trouble keeping up with me at all. You do have to be a little careful on the takeoff, and you do have to shift at a slightly higher RPM to get the same results. A flat-road standing start in the Accord usually involves very low RPMs to the point of full clutch hookup practically off-idle. The extra litre of displacement gives you the torque to do that easily, whereas the same tactic coupled with the HCH's clutch that I'm not used to chalked me up two stalls. But that's another thing that would be fixed by adjusting within a day or two.

IMA is cool! I got into the driver's seat with the pack sitting at 3 bars from the top. I have heard Wayne talking about the Hondas engaging IMA being a little harder on the pack than would be preferable. However, I kept the usual ultra-light touch on the throttle and didn't have a problem. The most assist I ever used from a stop was maye 5-6 bars, and only for 3-4 seconds at the most. The pack never dropped to less than 4 bars from the top over 7 or 8 miles of mixed driving. I'm willing to bet that my usual driving cycle would agree very well with the care-and-feeding needs of IMA. Stop and go might be a different story but I didn't have the opportunity to find out.

FE. I didn't look at the round-trip mileage but I kept my eye on the instantaneous feedback. OMG! Seeing that thing cruise in DWL at 40-45mph while camping at 80-100mpg was beautiful! And those tires were visibly flat, which I didn't want to get into on the dealer lot. She hung-in at ~50mpg at 65mph into a nasty headwind and temps around 45F. You guys would know better than I would if that's reasonable. But I, personally, think that one of these guys would be absolutely nasty the way I would drive it. Watch out Lake Dude, I'm comin' for ya ;) .

Road manners. The drive was perfectly acceptable to me, though there were obvious differences in the ride between the Civic and the Accord. I like the way the Accord feels a lot better, probably due to its weight and a slight edge in refinement. It's a comfortable, smooth, very satisfying car to drive. The Civic isn't too far away but I would have to accept some compromise to get the crazy FE.

I had mixed feelings when I finally put her away. The gearhead FE nut in me was giddy at the possibilities of this car. It was labelled AT-PZEV, too! (Got warranty?) But I was left with a vague sense of disappointment at how she felt vs. what I'm used to. Not unexpected, mind you, but I question just how satisfying it would be on the days that I just want to cruise and enjoy. The Accord has its failings too, but overall it's just more..."cushy." So overall I liked it but I think there would be a sense of loss if the Accord went away. I can't decide how important that is, so I'll leave it at that.

At the end of the day that particular car remains off the list due to cost vs. benefit. They did assess the Accord and offered what I would consider to be reasonable for a dealer trade-in ($10,400, blue book gave me $10,800). But there's no way I would ever spend an extra $9k+. Ever.

I had a look at the other, less expensive one but walked away without driving it. There was no point since it wasn't a PZEV. It was also nowhere near the condition of the Accord, with scratches and dents all over the place. Deal breaker? Not necessarily the aesthetics, but I'm not getting into it without the 15/150 on emissions and drivetrain. Especially not when the car has 25,000 more miles than what I'm sitting in.

So ends the discussion of a very worthwhile couple of hours. I'm glad I went, and I'm still very much in the market. But it would take the right car at the right place, and that could be hard to come by. We will see what happens. The one surprise was that my girlfriend expressed a desire to sell her Volvo and buy the Accord if I were going to get rid of it. Huh? She really doesn't want me to trade it because of the superior fit and finish, but I didn't realize she liked it that much. It would be pretty nice to buy a FE machine but keep the Accord in the proverbial family :D . I think she could easily exceed EPA highway for an average given that I seem to have rubbed off on her a little. Lots of savings for a girl who drives over 20K a year and would come out of it with cash in her pocket after selling the XC. That might not pan out, and in fact nothing might pan out at all. But there are all kinds of possibilities. I plan to keep scanning the classified within a couple hundred miles in case the right one comes along.

**EDIT**
I forgot to mention that I never saw autostop. Too cold today, maybe?

Hi Tim:

___If anything, at least you had the opportunity to drive an HCH-I! $19K for an 05 is way out of this world. I am sure they would take 16 - 17 but even that is just too much for a used anything in my book.

___Even with the snows and under inflation, if you were seeing the iFCD ride at 80 + while driving at 40 - 45 mph, that tells me she was showing you what the HCH-I is truly worth. AS at 45 degrees F in an HCH-I is in the bag once warmed up but you are close to the bottom edge. 40 is where they are supposed to stop AS’ing but many have seen AS in even lower temps … The HCH-II’s will AS in far lower temps as designed.

___Everything else you mentioned sounds eerily familiar. The HCH-II’s quietness and ride approach that of an Accord but the HCH-I is not in the same league. Either way, I have considered an HCH-I many times in the past. When the 03/04’s w/ sticks were being pushed out the door for < $17K brand new, you do not know how close I was to pulling the trigger but having a perfectly good Insight in the drive changed those thoughts :D

___Thank you for the details of your mornings HCH-I test drive. The next question is what’s next ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hmm...next. So far the plan is to watch all sources of classifieds for something anything good that I could negotiate below $14k. On my spreadsheet that's about the upper limit of what is reasonable given the cost projections. It depends on the vehicle, of course, because the residuals are different for each one. If I found something with <30k miles in the $15k range I think it would be a winner given that we're talking potentially 7-8 years of good service. Only problem is that I'm dreaming! The market is still too badly inflated IMO. But in my mind it would be preferable to hold out for a HCH-I simply for the stick, which I don't anticipate seeing any other vehicle with that kind of FE potential in the near future.

Plan B comes when the HCH-II or Prius (which I should find and drive in the near future) come down to prices that I'm willing to pay. I think the HCH-II would be best for my current and anticipated cycles, and wouldn't involve any sacrifice as far as I can tell. The only thing I don't like from an engineering perspective is the CVT. Simply don't like the concept, as a solid MT should eat it for lunch three times over in terms of longevity. But we should start hearing of high mileage '06 examples within a couple of years.

This could be a very long process. The only way I can lose is to rush into the wrong car out of excitement, and it's absolutely critical that I don't forget that.

A new day, a new perspective.

I found another '05 AT-PZEV w/ stick and in a nicer color over the border in MA. We spent just enough time behind the wheel to confirm that it was, in fact a Civic Hybrid. The sales guy was pretty clueless unlike the one I met yesterday. But everything was in order with the car and it was in nearly perfect condition with ~38,000 on the clock and no visible flaws to speak of. So I said, screw it. Let's see how horribly inflated the market really is.

The game face was on and we started talking numbers. I led off with a logical explanation of why $19,000 is way over the line for that car. I explained that a brand new '07 could be had for in the $21k range OTD, and that no being that can breathe and blink at the same time would see this as a good deal. He retorted with something about how the tax credit doesn't factor in here because I get it, not them. So I gave him a little lesson in market forces and how the price of a used car is determined. Blank stare. But I think you could have the tax credit on this one, right? Sorry dude, no. New cars only. Another blank stare and a brief pause while he tried to decide what to do with me. His next line was something about not selling a car for a low price just because the customers won't buy it for what they want to sell it for. What? Ok, so next question. How much money is this car worth to you? At that point I brought out my figure of $17,300 out the door, which is the absolute maximum justifiable price as far as I am concerned. He left for about 5 minutes to talk to somebody and I expected him to **at least** come back with some lame counter offer, like $18,200 +TTL instead of their "internet price" of $18,895 + TTL. Instead he came back with the old standby of a KBB printout and the payment options for 3, 4, and 5 years. (He hadn't even asked me about a trade, which kind of surprised me.) They would not play on the price at_all. So I finally told him that we didn't seem to have much more to talk about, shook his hand and thanked him, and went home. I was satisfied that I played the best hand I could, and was strangely appreciative of the quality of the Accord that I already own.

Which brings up another point. My second test drive of the HCH was more comfortable than the first since I had figured out how to get the seat in the right place. But it also confirmed the sad reality that the ride quality just isn't satisfying, and that the Accord is much more in tune with me when moving between the gears. I've been spoiled by my sub-lux highway machine, and I can't bring myself to trade it for the Civic.

So I have a revised plan. The search for a used HCH-I is hereby suspended and I'm going to give my new buddy, Joe, a call this week or next. With any luck he'll have a HCH-II to let me try and we'll see how it goes. My gut tells me that I will like it a lot better, to the point of saving my pennies until I can comfortably spend that kind of money...not in the near future. Oh, and I'll go drive a Prius, too :D.

Hi Tim:

___I found that News item I was thinking about posting the other day which may still help you in the future?

UPDATE 2-Sales of Prius other Toyota hybrids slip this fall. (http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-11-29T230648Z_01_N29383160_RTRIDST_0_TOYOTA-USA-UPDATE-2.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna)

___Anyway, the 07 Prius II’s have been seen for a few hundred over invoice and I can bet the 07 HCH-II could be found for similar.

Year|Model|Options|Invoice (incl. dest.) |Tax Credit|Total
07|Prius II|none|$21,039|$1,575|$19,464
07|HCH-II|none|$21,271|$2,100|$19,171

+ a few hundred to maybe $500 over. The HCH-II may be a little tougher to find the deal on but it will not be long.

___The 05 HCH-I sales guy was out of his mind which of course you knew within 10 minutes of speaking with him and his ill-conceived ideas about the tax credit and such. I wish after he said, “what are you willing to pay” you would have asked what he actually did pay/give for the HCH-I in trade? I bet it was in the $15 - $16K range tops.

___And about the Prius-II/HCH-II in my short time behind the wheel of each ... The Prius does not seem as refined as the HCH-II wrt exterior wind noise, ride and handling. It will however eat an HCH-II alive in heavy pulsating traffic all the way down to the stop and crawls. Anytime you can P&G or ride EV until the congestion is clear (the Prius II in its element), the HCH-II is toast. The HCH-II at a steady state 30 - 40 mph will take a Prius II out but not if the Prius II is P&G’ing. A Prius out on the highway above 50 mph is at a slight disadvantage to the HCH-II in the FE department but it is not a significant amount imho. When you are comparing either to the HCH-I w/ a stick or CVT at speeds between 45 and 62, they (the Prius and HCH-II) will have their respective @$$’es handed to them with someone that knows how to drive all 3. That hammer smashing old tech called “lean burn” is just too much to overcome even with the Prius II’s Atkinsonized 1.5 and the HCH-II’s 1.3 driving its super tall CVT. Above 62, I have no idea which is the most fuel efficient of the three?

___As far as size, the Prius II feels a lot larger and more comfortable for rear seat passengers in particular then either the HCH-I/II. With its hatch, can hold a ton more as well.

___Keep us informed as to what you are looking at and what you find. If I had my druthers, it would be an 03 HCH-I w/ low miles, good condition, with a stick and at a very good price. I cannot wait to hear of your experiences driving all 3 as well!

___Finally, the Accords are much better riding vehicles vs. any of the three but we pay a price in the FE department for it :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

well said Wayne, every machine has its own ability to do what its meant for. Despite the drawbacks of each and every system, such a shame there is no magic bullet when it comes to ultimate FE ;)

I wish after he said, “what are you willing to pay” you would have asked what he actually did pay/give for the HCH-I in trade? I bet it was in the $15 - $16K range tops.


Actually, that had come up before we ever started talking real numbers. That was when he was asking why hybrid, and I told him what it means to me (toy not necessity, suits my driving style) and that I was looking now because they can be found in good quantity vs. how things "used to be." I suggested that they were probably in the $14-15k range to get that car, given how dealers will gladly low-ball the trade and screw the buyer. (I didn't say that in so many words.) Still clueless, he again threw up his hands out of either not knowing or not wanting to admit that I was right. But I said flat out, you want to make a profit (and a comission!) and you could well close this deal within the week and accomplish both goals if willing to be reasonable.

I realized this morning that he probably didn't ever talk to one of his sales managers. I think his five minutes in the back were spent pulling up the kbb estimates and scrambling to show me that it would only be $500/mo to finance (HA!) to get me to bite at the asking price, hoping for a bigger commision. And I'm sure he didn't expect me to walk out without giving him another chance to haggle. He admitted early-on that he had been doing this for less than a year. So, if I'm right about how this works, there could well be a message on my machine when that little beastie has been sitting on the lot for another week or two (there since 11/16) and somebody wants money for christmas shopping. $17,500 -$17,600 OTD would be worth one more trip and a longer test drive. After all, I do still want something with a stick. The compromise on cushiness may still be worth it. Just not for the price they want!

Oh, and I have an exciting tidbit about incentives. In CT we don't pay the 6% sales tax on a hybrid car that exceeds 40mpg combined **including used cars** when purchased prior to January 1st, 2008. Just learned that this morning :) . I could literally be out the door on a brand-spanking new one for under $20k. Car shopping makes me dizzy.

**EDIT**
Crap. On my spreadsheet, I break **DEAD EVEN** on a Prius vs. the Accord after 5 years even if it only has a residual under $10k by then. (KBB estimates a trade on a '02 w/85K mi @ about $9600.) Which means that I am obligated to go look.

Hi Tim:

Fed, State, and Corporate hybrid purchase incentives. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1924)

___Right near the bottom. I did not know that included Used cars as well!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Sure does. And it applies to a lease, too. I just added a post to your thread with a link to the ct.gov page. It's too bad they didn't exempt them from the property tax law, too, because that's the part that would hurt me if I brought one home. That bill died in the committee phase.

Well, seeking out an HCH-II to test drive is turning out to be a bit more difficult than with the Prius and HCH-I. (Hence the inflated price of the available used cars.) It turns out that the state of Connecticut and Yellow Cab eat up a lot of inventory between them, which I can vouch for at least on the part of the cab. Those things are zipping around everywhere, albeit at non-FE speeds. Anyway, this may involve another trip over the border. I hope?