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A couple weeks ago I had the opportunity to swap PMs with Delta Flyer over at PriusChat and he asked me what I thought of CleanMPG. He was interested because I'm not a hypermiler ... I'm just an average, everyday driver. I've quoted the PMs below.

On the whole, I like the concept behind cleanmpg. Having a central place that shows what people can accomplish with any car, not just hybrids, is a great idea. I enjoy reading about the techniques everyone uses. And I really got a bang out of reading about the recent Insight marathon. That was truly amazing.

I've even referred a friend to the site. He got a Honda Odyssey (with cylinder shutdown) a little while ago and I suggested the site if he's looking for tips. I don't know if he's checked it out or not, but I pimp when I can.

As for me, I'm not a hypermiler. My daily commute is too long to P&G in my Prius. I leave around 6:30/6:45 in the am and it takes me 1:15/1:30 to go 50 miles. If I tried to hypermile, I'd never get to work. But I've picked up some good tips for making things a little easier on the car and on my mental state. And I've been able to apply a couple tips to help my mpg.

I don't hang out there too often. Mostly I use it to keep an online record of my gas mileage and read an article or two. But I do check it out more often than GreenHybrid these days.

Originally I found GH & then CleanMPG when I started thinking about getting a hybrid. I was comparison shopping between the HCH2 and the Prius. CleanMPG gave me some good tips to help me get the most mileage out of my Accord while I made my decision and waited for my Black Bullet to show up.

It's a good site and something everyone all involved with should be proud of.

One reason I don't hang out here that much is that it seems like more of a "gated community". There's really good stuff here, but if you're not a hypermiler, there doesn't seem to be much opportunity to really be a part of the community.

Also, I probably don't understand 1/2 the stuff that posted due to the technical nature of it. But that's only because I'm not all that interested, not because anyone here is trying to show off how much they know. ;)

Many here are hypermilers and I pretty much how I view the site as sort of a hypermiler central. For a non-hypermiler such as myself, there are some good tips on how you can improve your FE, but unless you're going to push it, there's not much else.

Anyway, that's the way I see it. All comments are welcome.

Hi Proco:

___Thank you for the honest assessment! Both Tom and Terry have asked me to tone down the hypermiling slant a while ago and I hope you see this in the news stories posted over the last 12 - 16 weeks. I wish I had the magic answer for what everyone seeks and that is why I have taken your post to heart. If you have any ideas, please let them fly as I in particular can use all the help I can get!

___And about your commute. Given mine can be similar in some instances, I try and make up time wherever I can. Are you sure you are not ready for a case study? Remember that a Prius II specific P&G is only a small part of one’s usable daily grind but in dense traffic, it can be a lifesaver. Ok, enough of the hypermiling stuff ;)

___What would you like to see? I visited GH a few weeks ago to get into a head to head with someone and there was a lot of discussion about comfort and conveniences of their hybrids. We discuss mods but not really the human side of the story about getting into and out of, driving enjoyment (although most here love to drive as well) or conveniences available. Is that something you would like to see? Anyway to make the non-hypermilers feel at home? We have a lot of those guys and gals but as you have experienced, they do not visit/post much.

___Good Luck and thank you.

PS: 98.98 % of the EPA combined in your Prius II means a darn good driver behind the wheel from my perspective!

___Wayne

Proco,

Thank you again for your input.

In this site and others that cater to hybrids or greeness I have three broad categories:

Hypermiles and very environmentally concerned people (many of the people at CleanMPG)
People that view hybrids, diesels, etc as a means to splurge more, rather than save more or be cleaner. Specifically I'm talking about people that routinely go at 80mph (gearheads) or feel green driving a hybrid Escalade that rarely has more than two passengers. Add to this small group some outright trollers. One forum in particular seems to almost favor them even though it ran counter to the name and alleged core belief of that site. Frustration with this group of people led to the founding of CleanMPG.
People like Proco that have a geniune interest in saving fuel, hybrids, enviromental concerns, but not to the extent of hypermiling or going outside of the mainstream. This is the largest of the three groups and the one I'd like to attract.To recap, a lot of us got sick with the #2 types and created CleanMPG. Many of the active members at CleanMPG are #1, but we definitely welcome #3s

Feel free to refine these thoughts

I sense sometimes that the "type 3 people" are afraid some of us "type 1s" will lump them into "type 2". I hope that's not the case, but in case it is, please elaborate so it might be corrected.

I hate to break it to you chuck. But I'm kind of the type 2 person. Also, for me personaly my reason to work with wayne on CleanMPG had nothing to do with any other site.

Redo because I can't think straight with a cold. :o

Tom, you are more type 3 - definitely not the type 2 I have in mind.

My definitons were broad and perhapse vague.

The type 2 people I'm trying to describe are just a handful of people that seem to have little in common with a site that promotes fuel economy or less polution. It borders on trolling - might even be trolling. The common demonator is they just don't care about such and for example view hybrids to continue driving like a gas guzzler. They would not record their commutes typically. They would tend to drive fast/aggressively on a short commute. Some pf these would feel green if they were seen in a hybrid Escalade, and pass on a substantially more fuel efficient luxury sedan that met their needs but lacked the desired status. If we were talking about dieting, the same mentality would apply to people seeking weght reduction eating a lot of low-calorie products and defeating the purpose by using no portion control.

Need to add if someone fits the definition I'm attempting to provide, I have no problem with them participating here. Where I have a problem is when they encourage others to do what they do.

I'm going to do this in pieces and it's going to be long, so please bear with me.

Hi Proco:

___Thank you for the honest assessment! Both Tom and Terry have asked me to tone down the hypermiling slant a while time ago and I hope you see this in the news stories posted over the last 12 - 16 weeks. I wish I had the magic answer for what everyone seeks and that is why I have taken your post to heart. If you have any ideas, please let them fly as I in particular can use all the help I can get!

___And about your commute. Given mine can be similar in some instances, I try and make up time wherever I can. Are you sure you are not ready for a case study? Remember that a Prius II specific P&G is only a small part of one’s usable daily grind but in dense traffic, it can be a lifesaver. Ok, enough of the hypermiling stuff ;)

___What would you like to see? I visited GH a few weeks ago to get into a head to head with someone over there and there was a lot of discussion about comfort and conveniences of their hybrids. We discuss mods but not really the human side of the story about getting into and out of, driving enjoyment (although most here love to drive as well) or conveniences available. Is that something you would like to see? Anyway to make the non-hypermilers feel at home? We have a lot of those guys and gals but as you have experienced, they do not visit/post much.

___Good Luck and thank you.

PS: 98.98 % of the EPA combined in your Prius II means a darn good driver behind the wheel from my perspective!

___Wayne
There is no magic answer and the site can't be everything to everyone. That's just the way it is. You shouldn't try to be. It seems like your challenge is to better marry results to the vision of your site. (can you tell I'm a refugee from corporate America?)

The heart & soul of this site, IMO, is the forums. The news articles are good and do generate some discussion, but the real meat is the interactions between members on a variety of topics. What makes people want to stick around is feeling like their views will be welcomed by at least a few of the "old-timers".

To use PriusChat (since I spend way too much time there) as an example, there's a wide variety of members there. There are FE fanatics, heavy duty mod-ers, technical/engineering wizzes, and just about everything in between. And, for people like me who just drive the car without worrying about it, there's Fred's House of Pancakes ... the (sometimes overly) vibrant off-topic area. Another thing that I think makes it successful is the latitude given when disagreements start. The moderators do a good job and give everyone lots of rope before they step in. There's Toyota bashing & Big 3 bashing. And lots of other disagreements. It may be counterintuitive, but I think that is what brings many back.

That's not to say you need to foster dissent or that you're intolerant of it. I just rarely see it. If I do, it's between old-timers.

I've always had the impression (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that this site was started to focus more on the environmental aspects of car driving ... specifically emissions and FE. Naturally, that will attract the more serious people first. Trying to grow membership without losing that focus isn't easy.

What will make it more difficult is that it's a narrower focus. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. Going back to PC for a second, there's many directions you can go with a focus of "all things Prius". On the other side of the spectrum is a Jeep forum I joined solely to get an answer to a question. Their focus is mods & off-roading. They know Jeeps inside & out and gladly answer questions. But most of the discussion is about terrain, shocks, tires, etc. So unless you're really into it, there's not much there.

CleanMPG isn't that narrow, thankfully. But perhaps the earlier focus on hypermiling was seen as off-putting to "average" members. It wasn't to me, but I could see how it could be. If an average driver is interested in FE & environmental issues, but sees mostly discussions about FAS and P&G and trying to eke an extra 1/10 of a mile out of a tank of gas, maybe they decide the site isn't for them.

You know ... if I were still working where I used to, I'd probably be a hypermiler. Though probably not as serious as some. ;) My commute was 17 miles and would take about 35 minutes over back roads.

As for my daily commute, having the Prius has saved my sanity. When things go slowly enough I get the thrill of seeing my MPGs going up and knowing I'm not polluting. That, more than anything, is the reason my MPG is what it is. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do to make up time. I'm already getting up too early.

And, living in the most densely populated state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population_density) really makes things difficult. If I leave by 6:40 I get to work by 8. If I leave any later, the earliest I get in is 8:30. Plus, no matter what time of day, there will always be someone coming up behind you on local roads.

Maybe a new job closer to home ... :)

Fortunately, I can take advantage of my car over the local roads once I get off the Garden State Parkway. That's certainly helped. In my own mind, I consider myself to be beating the EPA. I spend at least 70% of my time at highway speeds, so I consider 53.70 (.70*51+.30*60) to be my EPA benchmark. But I'll take near matching the EPA on a 50/50 basis, too.

I don't know if there's anything I'd like to see or would like you to change. Personally I think the site is good and it serves a very valuable purpose. The primary onus is on the people like me. It's up to us to join in and not worry too much about whether or not we'll "fit in".

Moving on ...
I sense sometimes that the "type 3 people" are afraid some of us "type 1s" will lump them into "type 2". I hope that's not the case, but in case it is, please elaborate so it might be corrected.
Don't know that they're (we're?) afraid of being lumped into the "type-2". Pulling an analogy from my HS days, I'd say it's more like trying to talk to the "in crowd", all the time knowing you're don't have as much in common with them. I can have the same feeling talking about books with my wife & her English degree.

Redo because I can't think straight with a cold. :o
My definitions were broad and perhaps vague.

The type 2 people I'm trying to describe are just a handful of people that seem to have little in common with a site that promotes fuel economy or less pollution. It borders on trolling - might even be trolling. The common denominator is they just don't care about such and for example view hybrids to continue driving like a gas guzzler. They would not record their commutes typically. They would tend to drive fast/aggressively on a short commute. Some of these would feel green if they were seen in a hybrid Escalade, and pass on a substantially more fuel efficient luxury sedan that met their needs but lacked the desired status. If we were talking about dieting, the same mentality would apply to people seeking weight reduction eating a lot of low-calorie products and defeating the purpose by using no portion control.

Need to add if someone fits the definition I'm attempting to provide, I have no problem with them participating here. Where I have a problem is when they encourage others to do what they do.
I think your type-2 can be broken out a little more. There are "gear-heads" that have concern for the environment. The just have to balance the rush they get from acceleration and speed with being green. They may not be as green as they can be, but they might be greener than you think.

Same goes for large SUV owners. Personally, I see no purpose to luxury SUVs, but they're a small market. And if someone decides to get a hybrid Escalade, then I think they are being green. They could have chosen the non-hybrid version. Is it as green as a luxury sedan? Who knows. But if it's what they want and they can afford it, it's better than other choices they could have made. Maybe they're doing it to show off. But maybe they're not.

Trolls, of course, should be banned as soon as possible. As long as you're not too quick to label someone a troll. Sometimes what looks like trolling isn't trolling at all ... it's just bad writing form.

CleanMPG isn't that narrow, thankfully. But perhaps the earlier focus on hypermiling was seen as off-putting to "average" members. It wasn't to me, but I could see how it could be. If an average driver is interested in FE & environmental issues, but sees mostly discussions about FAS and P&G and trying to eke an extra 1/10 of a mile out of a tank of gas, maybe they decide the site isn't for them.

Humm we are pretty focused on hypermileing I guess we should start to focus some more on the environmental aspects of driving.

Proco,

Once again, thank you for your input. Not many respond to such a request.

The six years I've driven my Insight I've gone from driving it like a CRX Si pocket rocket to the CRX HF hypermiling version - i.e. gone from a mild type 2, to type 3, to type 1. Having said that, If I was a real gearhead (type 2) I would have bought a real sports car. Ironically my greatest frustration with other drivers was the first two years I had a lead foot. Dallas has about double the SUVs/and trucks than the national average. In particluar, the large pickup trucks were a problem as a few of them were bullying (have many stories....)

On occasions, I've suspected a few speeding for pleasure on both the highways and forums. That does not seem green and it gets worse when a few of these advocate speeding for the heck of it.

Five years ago, a story of Ariel Sharon liking Slim Fast so much he downed a six pack during a meal was pretty funny - not funny now as he has been in a coma throughout 2006. I view a hybrid Escalade the same way - twisting something that could save and gratify instead.

I see a lot of people in the middle to reach out to...and perhaps a few gas guzzlers that might be willing to forgo the heavy drinking.

"One reason I don't hang out here that much is that it seems like more of a "gated community". There's really good stuff here, but if you're not a hypermiler, there doesn't seem to be much opportunity to really be a part of the community."

I very sorry you feel like that. I don't see that or feel that one bit. And if anybody was eligible to to be removed from a gated community it would have to me.

The most celebrated here is when somebody ask. How can I do better? Slowing up a tad. Managing traffic and routes. Learning about the throttle. And yes pumping the tires up a bit. Are very big deals to the membership here. I can assure you the basics bring a huge smile to many if not the whole membership.

Just that little bit of education. Makes ones FE better. Not to mention a more aware driver,, if not a better driver. Plus no matter what you drive. If you do a few basics. You just got a green star! IMHO

I met xcel in type at driveaccord.com. Here he was talking about FE. Caught my attention real fast. I was taught FE driving by my father as a child. WOW here is a man that lives the talk. I ended up on a Accord board because Toyota was too h*** bent on screwing me on my purchases of a New Avalon and Prius to the tune of about 10k. So I ended up with a I4 Accord and later a Civic sold to me at very fare prices.

Proco: I would like to share a event with you.

The Insight Marathon was a hoot!!! I got to meet the best FE drivers IMO in the world! And missed meeting RH77 by one day. Most don't post here on a daily basis. Fact is some hardly ever post here. Fact is,,, everbody there offered up the keys to there car if I wanted to drive it. My R-18 Civic keys were there for the taking. Nobody would have to worry about a meal or a place to stay! Face to Face. These are stand up folks! Humanity and compassion is number 1. When I rolled in Bradlee's Insight with a course ave. up hill with excel in the passengers seat playing DI and I messed up the burn off parking lot loop. The whole team was there to cheer me,,, and pushed the Insight 10' to see it parked right. Man thats impressive! And to think,, Ive driven Insights before... Just not at that level. Fact is,,, making that short run in a Insight with xcel barking at me. Is a top 5 automotive event in my life! and me barking back at him at times.... LMAO! The Insight Marthon is extreme!!!! No doubt about it. But the folks involved ,,,, first class is a under statement!

I look at FE drivers as F1, Nascar, Indy drivers. To not want or respect that in my book is insane. I more than once have Rally E-Braked so called honda ricer drivers at twice the posted speed limit. Or passed them on onramps for the local freeway and darn sure havent made bone about it. Does hypermiling refute my actions at times? NO!!! But Im good at it,, in my own world! :)

Excel owns and drives a Accord, MDX, Ranger. Lakedude owns and drives a HCH1, Corvette, Ranger. We all have our habbits and enjoyment levels.

Im not sorry for the post or rant that it could be seen by some. I think cleanmpg.com is on a very good growth rate and as inviting as a user wants it to be. If a user only wants 1 to 2 percent fe increase so be it. A party is in order for that achievement. There is unlimited support here for that as there is a 25% increase in fe.

As for the touchy feeling side. Ask for that 1 or 2 percent. And theres nothing a user wont do to help you get it or enjoy the art of getting it. Dose not matter what you drive.

But honestly,,, I have to wonder why your at 98% of EPA with your Pri? Ive lived in the LA Basin, Denver and other places of like insanity. Is money worth it?

psy

Psyshack,

Let's not put Proco's FE on trial. Imagine if everyone drove the EPA estimates - that would probably be the entire country going 20% farther on a gallon of gas!

In a lot of ways, my commute is somewhat similar to Proco's in I need to leave by 6:40am to be at work by 8. To get better FE and a lot less stress, I generally leave at 6am. His commute has less freeways and it's more challenging. If you or I drove his work commute, I'd bet your blood pressure would jump 15 or 20 points.

Psyshack, the testamonials about meeting Wayne and the Insight Marathon were excellent.

I'm trying to look at the big picture - if a lot of people join and increase their FE 10%, it will make a bigger impact. If we make members with moderate interest in FE more comfortable, we have a larger audience.

Delta Flyer, I don't thik Psy was putting proco's FE on trial. Mostly he was saying that no matter how much someone wants to imprvove 1% vs 20% everyone here will be just as excited.

He was just wondering why he would want to live in the LA basin given the driving conditions. At least thats what I got out of it.

Maybe I read it the wrong way.... :o

If someone is meeting the EPA, they definitely doing better than the average driver.

Yup. And think of the celebrating you can do with the money you save on gas.

This is an extremely interesting conversation! I have to admit that the number of new forum participants does seem kind of low. Most new members seem to make a post or two and don't come back. That's just fine if they get the info they need and take it with them, as our purpose is served in that case. But some may be "scared off."

One simple option that I like is to bring the conversation a little closer to plain english. It can't be easy to read about someone deciding to go NICE-on instead of FAS at the end of the usual DWB/DWL routine because the aFCD showed minimal negative impact to RT FE :eek: . I'm probably one of the worst on here when it comes to the acronyms. They reduce typing time but it probably reads like code to someone who hasn't read the glossary cover-to-cover.

Psyshack,

Let's not put Proco's FE on trial. Imagine if everyone drove the EPA estimates - that would probably be the entire country going 20% farther on a gallon of gas!

In a lot of ways, my commute is somewhat similar to Proco's in I need to leave by 6:40am to be at work by 8. To get better FE and a lot less stress, I generally leave at 6am. His commute has less freeways and it's more challenging. If you or I drove his work commute, I'd bet your blood pressure would jump 15 or 20 points.

Psyshack, the testamonials about meeting Wayne and the Insight Marathon were excellent.

I'm trying to look at the big picture - if a lot of people join and increase their FE 10%, it will make a bigger impact. If we make members with moderate interest in FE more comfortable, we have a larger audience.

Chuck

I would never ever second guess any body's mpg or truthfully where they live. But rest assured I wont be back in Texas anytime soon! :rolleyes: I lived in SoCal once in my life. That was more than enough. Great place to hang out. Rotten place for ME to live. I only go to Chi-Town at near gun point and a unlimited expense account. :woot:

I have a great amount of respect for our members here and members of other boards that live in Huge Metro Area's. It impresses me with what you do with your Insight in the DFW Metro! I have no business living in such areas. Heck Chuck. I would be a Hummer owner if I lived in your area. No doubt about it.

Just the other night I was having a dream about my Civic getting rear ended on my last trip to DFW. Wife had to wake me up with a broom stick. I wasn't mad because I got rear ended and the person ran or that a lady cut me off that started the whole mess took off. I was mad because I took my pistol out of the car. And that I knew better than to go to Texas. :D But thats my warped psyche. And I know most folks have pitfalls like mine. They just wont talk about it or admit it. :p

I have always had a affinity for FE driving. After all my father taught me a lot in my formal drivers training. Ive always kept up with my mpg. Be it a car, motorcycle, moped. I have not looked at my riding mowers FE or say a gas powered skateboard or my old Honda 50 MiniTrail in the shed. :)

I grin big time if somebody learns enough to increase there FE 1 or 2 percent. My wife has managed to improve her mpg a little bit over the last 6 months. I was very impressed with her efforts. Her efforts amounted to slowing down 5 mph and being a bit more frugal with the A/C. Heck she can barely drive IMHO and I only ride with her when I'm so drunk I cant walk. She scares the crap out of me! None the less I was xtatic to see the tank log on the Accord as I booked a record tank for the car a week or so ago. Did she beat EPA city or hwy? No! But shes been giving EPA combined one hell of a run. I would prefer to see a Ave. closer to EPA hwy over all. But pulling down near combined numbers got her a lot of new furniture out of the blue. :)

Ive grown weary of GH. So much so at times. I wonder how much GM paided Martin to post there. And the seemly common attitude of who gets the best mpg at 70 mph. As if buying a hybrid,, makes that right. And then there is the imperical data and graph type/types. Very little seat of the pants driving or realistic car ownership input. IMHO.

Ive been very impressed with gassavers.org. These are some grass roots in your face drivers. They recycle a lot of Civic's, CRX's, Metro's, Saturn's and host of other cars. They aero mod them and play with other mods and drive the crap out of there cars. Real seat of the pants folks that have a great time doing what they do!

But alas I call this place home. Your going to get a 2% MPG increase if you stop buy and do anything mentioned on this site. Lets say you visit this site and decide to put a few psi more in your tires. Great!!! Will that get you a 2% increase alone in mpg. I don't think so. But in the course of getting to the point of adding some psi to the old tires. I bet the user has either slowed down just a tad, or stopped with the jack rabbit starts or dosent gun it to the next light or stop sign. So there they have the 2% increase. And it didnt hurt them one bit. And they haven't hypermiled one block. :)

It maybe all semantics. Best of my knowledge nobody has ever been put under the spot light and asked to prove a tank, segment or test loop. Sure some of us post pic's or a video. Or are proud of out lastist efforts with a SG pic. But I dont think anybody has ever been pushed to prove anything, or discounted. That in my mind is very important.

This is home. :)

psy

This is an extremely interesting conversation! I have to admit that the number of new forum participants does seem kind of low. Most new members seem to make a post or two and don't come back. That's just fine if they get the info they need and take it with them, as our purpose is served in that case. But some may be "scared off."

One simple option that I like is to bring the conversation a little closer to plain english. It can't be easy to read about someone deciding to go NICE-on instead of FAS at the end of the usual DWB/DWL routine because the aFCD showed minimal negative impact to RT FE :eek: . I'm probably one of the worst on here when it comes to the acronyms. They reduce typing time but it probably reads like code to someone who hasn't read the glossary cover-to-cover.

Brick

I don't think over all that this is a issue.

I can step back and use examples of other boards and chats I go to.

Take my aquarium hobby. Yep I have a few fresh water tanks. And have dabbled in reef's. We have newcomers all the time. OOOO and the unending problems they have. For some they never end. It seems they don't want to learn the basics. The nitrogen cycle is greek to these people. You can tell them about it. Point them to articles about it. But until its understood and practiced. There is no snot in the bottle miracle made that will make there tanks better. But they want the easy way out. The short of the long is they have to learn about the cycle and learn the acronyms and the meaning. Then the world concerning tanks is theres and off they go.

This hobby is the same way. And yes it is a hobby to me. Its not a life style thing for me. Ive seen a lot of folks looking for the snot in the bottle cure. There isn't one. Can you switch out the 80 mph freeway runs inlue of a full belly pan and expect better mpg? I don't think so.

There are going to be a lot of fly byes. Looking for the quick answer and cure. There isn't one. The basics are not only on this site but many others all over the net in very plain and simple English. And a lot of times folks just don't want to hear it. And sure don't want to work for it. And thats a shame. That 2% is really easy to get. :D

psy

And away we go ....


I very sorry you feel like that. I don't see that or feel that one bit. And if anybody was eligible to to be removed from a gated community it would have to me.As one of the first 20 members to join, I'd be surprised if you did see it or feel it. To use my HS analogy from before, you're part of the "in crowd". So it's natural you wouldn't see it the way I do.

The Insight Marathon was a hoot!!! I got to meet the best FE drivers IMO in the world! And missed meeting RH77 by one day. Most don't post here on a daily basis. Fact is some hardly ever post here. Fact is,,, everbody there offered up the keys to there car if I wanted to drive it. My R-18 Civic keys were there for the taking. Nobody would have to worry about a meal or a place to stay! Face to Face. These are stand up folks! Humanity and compassion is number 1. When I rolled in Bradlee's Insight with a course ave. up hill with excel in the passengers seat playing DI and I messed up the burn off parking lot loop. The whole team was there to cheer me,,, and pushed the Insight 10' to see it parked right. Man thats impressive! And to think,, Ive driven Insights before... Just not at that level. Fact is,,, making that short run in a Insight with xcel barking at me. Is a top 5 automotive event in my life! and me barking back at him at times.... LMAO! The Insight Marthon is extreme!!!! No doubt about it. But the folks involved ,,,, first class is a under statement!I have no doubt everyone here is a top-notch person. Of everyone here, Delta is the one I'm most familiar with and I have lots of respect for his opinions. I can see how tight everyone is and how ready they are to help each other.

But honestly,,, I have to wonder why your at 98% of EPA with your Pri? Ive lived in the LA Basin, Denver and other places of like insanity. Is money worth it?

psyI live at the Jersey Shore for a number of reasons:

It's my wife's home. She grew up here and never wants to leave.
It's the first place I've ever felt truly at home in my whole life.
The people in my town form a real community.

I work 50 miles away because after 14 years at AT&T, my job was eliminated 1/05 and it took me over a year to find a new one. And I had to take a slight paycut. I don't plan on being there forever, but when you're out of work for a year, you jump at the first half-decent thing that comes along. And you make whatever sacrifices you have to make. I'm unwilling to move closer to the job, so I deal with the traffic.

For my commute, I think falling just shy of meeting EPA is pretty **** good. I'm limited by my commute, by how far I'm willing to inflate my tires (42/40) and by not having a garage. Over the summer, I did better. Once I get a job closer to home, I'll do better still.

One simple option that I like is to bring the conversation a little closer to plain english. It can't be easy to read about someone deciding to go NICE-on instead of FAS at the end of the usual DWB/DWL routine because the aFCD showed minimal negative impact to RT FE :eek: . I'm probably one of the worst on here when it comes to the acronyms. They reduce typing time but it probably reads like code to someone who hasn't read the glossary cover-to-cover.
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/konfus/c010.gifI've read the glossary and have no idea what you're talking about here. :)

But alas I call this place home. Your going to get a 2% MPG increase if you stop buy and do anything mentioned on this site. Lets say you visit this site and decide to put a few psi more in your tires. Great!!! Will that get you a 2% increase alone in mpg. I don't think so. But in the course of getting to the point of adding some psi to the old tires. I bet the user has either slowed down just a tad, or stopped with the jack rabbit starts or dosent gun it to the next light or stop sign. So there they have the 2% increase. And it didnt hurt them one bit. And they haven't hypermiled one block. :)

It maybe all semantics. Best of my knowledge nobody has ever been put under the spot light and asked to prove a tank, segment or test loop. Sure some of us post pic's or a video. Or are proud of out lastist efforts with a SG pic. But I dont think anybody has ever been pushed to prove anything, or discounted. That in my mind is very important.

This is home. :)

psyAsking someone to prove a tank would be pretty obnoxious. And I've certainly never seen anything like that. If I had, I wouldn't have come back. The response is always positive, regardless of how small the increase. If I hadn't found this site, I'd probably be around 50 instead of around 55. Given my circumstances, I've probably pushed it as far as I reasonably can.

I guess part of my "outsider" feeling is that, once I've got the extra 1-2% (or 10% or whatever), and I don't want to do anything else, what happens then? If I decide that a 525 mile tank is good enough for me and I'm not going to push for 550 or 600, is there anything else here for me? Have I effectively, as brick put it, gotten my question answered?


Take my aquarium hobby. Yep I have a few fresh water tanks. And have dabbled in reef's. We have newcomers all the time. OOOO and the unending problems they have. For some they never end. It seems they don't want to learn the basics. The nitrogen cycle is greek to these people. You can tell them about it. Point them to articles about it. But until its understood and practiced. There is no snot in the bottle miracle made that will make there tanks better. But they want the easy way out. The short of the long is they have to learn about the cycle and learn the acronyms and the meaning. Then the world concerning tanks is theres and off they go.

This hobby is the same way. And yes it is a hobby to me. Its not a life style thing for me. Ive seen a lot of folks looking for the snot in the bottle cure. There isn't one. Can you switch out the 80 mph freeway runs inlue of a full belly pan and expect better mpg? I don't think so.

There are going to be a lot of fly byes. Looking for the quick answer and cure. There isn't one. The basics are not only on this site but many others all over the net in very plain and simple English. And a lot of times folks just don't want to hear it. And sure don't want to work for it. And thats a shame. That 2% is really easy to get. :D

psyIf someone is looking for help but doesn't want to do what's necessary, then there's nothing you can do for them. There's people like that everywhere. If someone's coming here and asking how can get better FE while still going from 0-60 in 5 seconds and traveling at 85, this isn't the place. You can tell them slow down and ease up on the acceleration, but they don't want to hear it.

You look at this as a hobby. The question is, what can you do to win the middle-of-the-roaders over to viewing it as a hobby? Encouraging them to try one thing and maybe they get hooked?

Or, how do you treat that person if they're not as into the hobby as you? There's different levels of interest to all hobbies.

If this little thread of mine has done nothing else, it's moved me a little closer to the "gate", as it were. :)

Proco,

Once again I want to thank you for your thoughts on this.

...Or, how do you treat that person if they're not as into the hobby as you? There's different levels of interest to all hobbies...

My gut feeling is there is a lot of people out there as described that would participate here if it was easier to process the informtion and we made an extra effort to welcome people with moderate interest in better fuel economy.

Proco, I'm somewhat flattered by your compliment, but believe me I've been undiplomatic on more than a few occasions - it's part of the reason I encouraged you to say something.

Proco,
Proco, I'm somewhat flattered by your compliment, but believe me I've been undiplomatic on more than a few occasions - it's part of the reason I encouraged you to say something.
Content, rather than style, is what wins me over. Of everyone here I've seen your posts the most ... here, at GH and now at PC. So I think I've gotten a good bead on your style. I'm not offended easily, that's for sure.

There is one other thing about this site that I really like. And that's all these guys ...

:Banane08: :Banane30: :Banane29: :Banane37:

I guess part of my "outsider" feeling is that, once I've got the extra 1-2% (or 10% or whatever), and I don't want to do anything else, what happens then? If I decide that a 525 mile tank is good enough for me and I'm not going to push for 550 or 600, is there anything else here for me? Have I effectively, as brick put it, gotten my question answered?

I know exactly what you are saying. Once you are as avanced at driving for mileage as you want to be what is left for you at this site. We struggle with this question all the time. Hopefully others will step forward and let us know. One direction I would like to go is to have more stories and anecdotes about future technology. For that though we need more contacts in the industry and more time to do research.

What do you think of that direction? Would it interest you to read stories and articles about that sort of thing?

Even if we've made a couple of those fly-bys just *think*
about better and safer driving technique for a moment, it's
all good because even if they go away thinking "gah, what
a bunch of nutcases" it has at least given them perspective.
.
_H*

True hobbit. The only problem with fly-bys is that if they don't stick around how long will it be before the regulars find the site boring and decide they don't want to stick around either?

Obviously with any forum you want to build a core of membrers that are motivated and interested enough to interact.

I know exactly what you are saying. Once you are as avanced at driving for mileage as you want to be what is left for you at this site. We struggle with this question all the time. Hopefully others will step forward and let us know. One direction I would like to go is to have more stories and anecdotes about future technology. For that though we need more contacts in the industry and more time to do research.

What do you think of that direction? Would it interest you to read stories and articles about that sort of thing?
Whatever direction you take is up to you. I really have no problem with the current direction & focus of the site. I may not be as active as some members, I do log in and read stuff. I think what will eventually help grow your membership is more people like me (ones who are happy with our current FE and not going to push it) participating. Once you have a couple of us, then that's a visible sign that we "fit in".

Could I possibly bring back more memories of high school? :)

Even if we've made a couple of those fly-bys just *think*
about better and safer driving technique for a moment, it's
all good because even if they go away thinking "gah, what
a bunch of nutcases" it has at least given them perspective.
.
_H*
True hobbit. The only problem with fly-bys is that if they don't stick around how long will it be before the regulars find the site boring and decide they don't want to stick around either?
You definitely want to hook some of the fly-bys. Naturally there will be those who think you're all just way too hardcore about driving for mileage. But they're not you're target market, anyway. You'll naturally get curiosity seekers, too, who sign up and either get their "questions answered" and leave, or decide it just isn't for them. It's the curiosity seekers who find something redeeming and keep coming back & at least reading or the ones who are truly interested in increasing their FE, but don't want to go full-blown hypermiler who will be the ones that help this grow.

That's why it's really ultimately up to people like me. We're the ones who have to speak up and say "we're here, too!" Even if it's to congratulate one of you "nutcases" on a good segment/day/week/month/tank. Or commiserating on the cold weather. Or whatever.

Obviously with any forum you want to build a core of membrers that are motivated and interested enough to interact.
That's a good point. You've got to maintain your focus enough to maintain your core. As I understand it, many of the core that are here now migrated from GH because GH (in their minds) lost its focus. You don't want to alienate the core.

That's the real trick of running a focused site. If it's too focused, it's becomes almost "by invitation only". But if you lose the focus, the core that kept it going move on and the site isn't what was envisioned.

Just so I'm being clear ... I'm not expecting the admins to make any changes to the site. Delta asked me for my opinion and I wanted to honor his request. Besides, my therapist tells me it's good for me to speak my mind. :D

Personally I really like CMPG but really don't have much free time these days and can't spend much of any time in any web based community.

I also have to admit slacking off a bit since I met my MPG goal last summer. For the last few months I've been driving 95% freeway in my commute- rarely shut it off or any advanced techniques. But you'll still find me plodding along in the far right lanes letting my speed vary up/down hills (DWL) and is mainly what's keeping my MPG acceptable.

Sometimes I've seen some really advanced tips here which was really over my head so I'd browse elswhere in the website.
Given my time allotment I do visit practically every day and post when I think I have a contribution to offer. Personally I like CMPG much better than GH, although both are great websites. Perhaps it is because I recognize, respect (and have met) more people here than anywere else.
The website owners Wayne, Tom, etc actively take part in continuing development and participation here which seems to be rather unique on the web these days which mean allot to me.

Sorry, I must go and log into work already. :(

It's three years since this thread was started.

The basic question: is hypermiling fringe driving?

No, although many will consider it unusual.

In 2009, more people are watching every cent, so frugal driving is in vogue.

I've found since this thread was started hypermiling is safe, practical, can be adapted to nearly all circumstances - more so with the passage of time. Since it's different, it can take time to try many of these techniques.

The objections to hypermiling are still from those that have misconceptions, fear intimidation from other drivers, or addicted to speeding. They may have behaviorial issues, even in the face of members that clearly do routine hypermiling daily.

I'm glad Proco has visited this thread from time to time. Convinced he and others like him can get 10% better than the latest EPA estimates for his vehicle without sticking out at all.

The basic question: is hypermiling fringe driving?

It is around here, even though i virtually never get hassle from anyone while i do it. People are mostly courteous and pass when i pull over for them or they get a clear bit of road.

I think the biggest block people have to hypermiling is how much longer they think they'll be driving if they slow down. I shocked my co-carpooler early on when i reached work at the same time he used to when he drove! He then slowed down and saved maybe 20-30% on his fuel bill.

I wouldn't classify myself as a hardcore hypermiler but thats because i commute long distances and also drive a diesel, not a hybrid. The diesel does well when driven on a bit. It needs to occasionally anyway to keep it from sooting up. And it doesn't seem to get much better when i slow right down and P&G like theres no tomorrow. It's the lovely rolling hills around here you see! It aint no Bonneville.

As for catering for non hardcore hypermilers? I think CleanMPG does a great job. There may be less threads in some sections but they are there if they are needed.

ollie

Maybe it's because I don't drive a hybrid, but I'm a little surprised at the dichotomy between "hypermiling" and "interested in driving for better fuel economy" expressed in this thread. To me they are the same thing, and again maybe that's because of my vehicle choices (Hondas, Subarus and VWs). Until 2 1/2 years ago I always got around my cars' rated mpg, and that was while driving with a VERY heavy lead foot. Since the EPA lowered the ratings in 2008, it's more or less seemed to me that even modest efforts would beat the EPA ratings and qualify one as a hypermiler. I guess I forget that hybrids are more sensitive to driving style.

Or by "hypermiling" do we really mean "elite hypermiling" as practiced by Wayne and some of the other top forum members, often getting near 2x the EPA ratings? I guess it all depends on how far you're willing to take it. Personally, I'm getting about 31/35mpg in a car originally rated 24/31 and downrated to 22/29 in the 2008 re-rating, and what I do only barely qualifies as "fringe driving". Only when approaching a red light or a freeway climb does anybody notice that I'm doing something different.

Yes it does take me longer to get to work, but so what? We're talking about maybe 2-3 minutes each way. I'm pretty sure I "waste" 3 minutes a day sitting on the crapper. Is it worth using 25% more fuel -- nearly a tank a month -- to get to work a mere 10% faster? Even though I'm in a 2-career family with a young child and a spouse who also works, I think it's an illusion and a bit arrogant to see my time as so important that I can't spend an extra couple minutes getting to work. Besides, I've found this mode of driving is much more relaxing, making me calmer and more productive at work, more than paying for itself in terms of time.

So my driving style may not be "fringe", I do recognize that my attitude definitely IS. Fine. As a country we're obsessed with speed, power, control and size. It's in our nature unless otherwise constrained by incentives to conserve (read: high gas prices). I live the green-est, left-est core of what is (other than possibly New York and San Francisco) supposedly the green-est, left-est (and some haters might say most anti-car) city in America, yet even here you will not find that many people who sympathize with my point of view. From that perspective even the most modest fuel saving is "fringe."

I think it's good to recognize that some people may be looking for modest fuel saving tips, and not deliberately push those people away, but given that the site IS about fuel economy there's always going to be a bias towards what saves MORE fuel. That's going to intimidate some people, and that's just the nature of the beast. We can offer friendly FAQs and helpful tips for people getting their feet wet, but I sure don't want the site getting "dumbed down" to chase more web traffic, especially with sub-$3 gas depressing the ranks of people who care. As long as gas is cheap we'll be on the fringe. So be it. I'd rather we keep promoting what works, provide MUCH a improved and deeper glossary, and let the people come flooding in when gas hits $5, which I believe it will by early 2011.

If you're doing anything that saves gas, you're a hypermiler, even if you don't think of yourself as one. That is especially true if you're getting higher than EPA for the kind of trips you make.

For example, my friend Hannah Tucker regularly gets 32MPG in a (regular) Ford Escape. She doesn't call herself a hypermiler but she is.

There are varying degrees of hypermiling. On one end, there are the drivers who do little more than maintain their car and minimize driving, while on the other end, there are the real professionals like Jennie Chen and Wayne Gerdes.

I expect hypermiling to increase as gas prices rise.

Maybe it's because I don't drive a hybrid, but I'm a little surprised at the dichotomy between "hypermiling" and "interested in driving for better fuel economy" expressed in this thread. To me they are the same thing, and again maybe that's because of my vehicle choices (Hondas, Subarus and VWs). Until 2 1/2 years ago I always got around my cars' rated mpg, and that was while driving with a VERY heavy lead foot. Since the EPA lowered the ratings in 2008, it's more or less seemed to me that even modest efforts would beat the EPA ratings and qualify one as a hypermiler. I guess I forget that hybrids are more sensitive to driving style.

Or by "hypermiling" do we really mean "elite hypermiling" as practiced by Wayne and some of the other top forum members, often getting near 2x the EPA ratings? I guess it all depends on how far you're willing to take it. Personally, I'm getting about 31/35mpg in a car originally rated 24/31 and downrated to 22/29 in the 2008 re-rating, and what I do only barely qualifies as "fringe driving". Only when approaching a red light or a freeway climb does anybody notice that I'm doing something different.

Yes it does take me longer to get to work, but so what? We're talking about maybe 2-3 minutes each way. I'm pretty sure I "waste" 3 minutes a day sitting on the crapper. Is it worth using 25% more fuel -- nearly a tank a month -- to get to work a mere 10% faster? Even though I'm in a 2-career family with a young child and a spouse who also works, I think it's an illusion and a bit arrogant to see my time as so important that I can't spend an extra couple minutes getting to work. Besides, I've found this mode of driving is much more relaxing, making me calmer and more productive at work, more than paying for itself in terms of time.

So my driving style may not be "fringe", I do recognize that my attitude definitely IS. Fine. As a country we're obsessed with speed, power, control and size. It's in our nature unless otherwise constrained by incentives to conserve (read: high gas prices). I live the green-est, left-est core of what is (other than possibly New York and San Francisco) supposedly the green-est, left-est (and some haters might say most anti-car) city in America, yet even here you will not find that many people who sympathize with my point of view. From that perspective even the most modest fuel saving is "fringe."

I think it's good to recognize that some people may be looking for modest fuel saving tips, and not deliberately push those people away, but given that the site IS about fuel economy there's always going to be a bias towards what saves MORE fuel. That's going to intimidate some people, and that's just the nature of the beast. We can offer friendly FAQs and helpful tips for people getting their feet wet, but I sure don't want the site getting "dumbed down" to chase more web traffic, especially with sub-$3 gas depressing the ranks of people who care. As long as gas is cheap we'll be on the fringe. So be it. I'd rather we keep promoting what works, provide MUCH a improved and deeper glossary, and let the people come flooding in when gas hits $5, which I believe it will by early 2011.

Thank you so much for this post. It expresses better than I can exactly what this interesting resurrected thread had me thinking. Especially the last paragraph. This IS the hypermiling site, so there is no need to apologize for our focus on saving fuel. As long as the site presents a range of choices involving different amounts of effort and savings and does not demand that people take it to the "elite" level. If someone doesn't care about saving fuel or finds even the minimal steps too much effort, then why are they here?

It is interesting to try to hypermile in a way that other drivers are not even aware of it. This is harder to do in a bright red Insight-I at 50mph, but I can often escape notice in the less-conspicuous Subaru.

The "hyper" in "hypermiling" may carry the unintended suggestion that what we are doing is more "extreme" than it really is. I think what is meant is that the ultimate goal is to excel at saving fuel.

And another often overlooked function of this site is to combat the too-common misperception that the EPA numbers are what you will get from a vehicle no matter how idiotically you drive it. The EPA ratings were never intended as a guarantee; they were simply a yardstick to compare vehicles under a given set of conditions which may or may not realistically reflect conditions faced on the road. They were necessary because manufacturers were making wild claims about the fuel efficiency of their vehicles - something they still do at times!

The reason I'm repeating this is it's been encountered countless times: many drivers are predisposed to fear/hate hypermiling and just tune out driving greener. It's especially true if they have an addiction to speeding. So instead of a true discussion, it's attempting to portray going 80mph as a human rights issue and character assassination of hypermilers. I can cite a number of people of the bent: "Hell, no: I'd rather speed than hypermile!"

If you're doing anything that saves gas, you're a hypermiler, even if you don't think of yourself as one. That is especially true if you're getting higher than EPA for the kind of trips you make.

For example, my friend Hannah Tucker regularly gets 32MPG in a (regular) Ford Escape. She doesn't call herself a hypermiler but she is.

There are varying degrees of hypermiling. On one end, there are the drivers who do little more than maintain their car and minimize driving, while on the other end, there are the real professionals like Jennie Chen and Wayne Gerdes.

I expect hypermiling to increase as gas prices rise.

My friend gets better than the EPA ratings but he's a serial roadrager, he's thrown stuff at other people's cars, flipped the bird, pulled down the window and berated them vehemently and he's still a hypermiler? He also enjoys cutting people off (although i admit i do that when its in peak hour traffic) and sometimes speeds. I loathe to say he's a hypermiler, it doesn't sound right

Somewhere else, I have read that "You know you're a hypermiler when you get road rage from others forcing you to brake."

My friend gets better than the EPA ratings but he's a serial roadrager, he's thrown stuff at other people's cars, flipped the bird, pulled down the window and berated them vehemently and he's still a hypermiler? He also enjoys cutting people off (although i admit i do that when its in peak hour traffic) and sometimes speeds. I loathe to say he's a hypermiler, it doesn't sound rightRoad raging is NEVER justified - doesn't matter how this bloke drives.

Somewhere else, I have read that "You know you're a hypermiler when you get road rage from others forcing you to brake."

lolololol i get annoyed at those people

Road raging is NEVER justified - doesn't matter how this bloke drives.

Yes, i seriously don't know what his problem is... Should really calm down, but he doesn't/won't listen.

Maybe hypermiling and road raging should be considered two separate things?? One could be both. I suppose a hypermiler could get outraged that someone tailgates or speeds by, just as "hypo-milers" sometimes are outraged at people who are not speeding as they are.

Hypermiling does encourage equanimity on the road, because it's hard to drive smoothly and anticipate traffic when one is angry.

Road rage does not really mix with hypermiling.

Most road raging is in part due to not thinking ahead - a basic precept of hypermiling.

Road rage is a self entitlement issue. They (road raging drivers) believe that they have the greatest right to drive the way that they do and anyone who impedes their travel is the focus of their rage.

There is no fairness with road rage, if another self entitled driver prevents them from going where they want to go as fast as they want to get there then even if the techniques are identical to theirs then the offending person receives the same irrational disdain or even hatred.

These types of people behave immature and selfishly because they think their time is more important than everyone else around them.

And this upsets them that others are not making their travels as easy as they would like. Road rage really comes down to a few things.

Improper planning on their part and an unrealistic expectation of the events that occur around them. Then the publicly expressed rage from the disappointment in bad planning and those fantastic expectations.

Improper planning in this case is not allowing enough time to get to where you want to be at a speed that is lawful, safe and courteous with the consideration that other travelers will also be on the road.

The unrealistic expectation is that those travelers will be fewer, they will do what you want them to do (get out of your way), the lights will not turn red on your path and you will be able to drive as fast and as daring as you wish.

The physical expression of this rage is show by the driver being emotionally out of control, can no longer think intelligently and feels threatened that their ill conceived plan is failing and they blame others around them for their mistakes. A dangerous situation sometimes.

This should be discussed in drivers education when new drivers and renewing drivers are given their licenses. On the day of getting your license in order to pass the exams you should have to listen to an instructor teach the causes, signs and solution to this mental driving dilemma. Prospective drivers should answer questions that cover road rage, why it occurs and how to avoid it.

Don't get mad if there is a long line at the license office because of this, you should expect this. Leave earlier. :D - Dale

Dale, I really like your suggestion that a discussion of road rage be a mandatory part of Driver's Ed. Even though it doesn't mean most people will think about it, at least they will have some exposure to it. And that seems to be the best we can do at the present.

BTW, I am not immune to road rage and (some level of) aggressive driving. I was in the middle of a nice glide when someone decided to turn onto the road I was traveling on. It was three lanes in each direction, and I was in the center lane with nobody around me. (My intent was that people could easily turn into the right lane without worrying about me.) This person decided to turn into the middle lane, right in front of me, and stay there. She was doing about 20 MPH in a 35 (or is that road 40 at that point?) zone, and my standard P&G on that road is 40-30 MPH. By the time I realized that she wasn't going to speed up, traffic surrounded us and I could not go around on either side. She proceeded in the center lane at 20 MPH for the next four blocks, at which point I (safely) passed and got in front of her. I made sure to accelerate low and slow from the lights while she was behind me... Because I was pissed off at her for meaninglessly impeding my way.

That's definitely something I need to work on--letting go when someone does something breath-takingly stupid that impacts me... At least I recognized that I was dropping into road rage, and let it go at slow acceleration...

-soD

People will never stop wondering what could have possessed that person (who seems to be the biggest moron) to have done what they just did on the road.

If you already expect that other driver to be stupid, and they do it, it's much easier to let go. I already hate driving behind people who aren't at least 15-20 car lengths ahead of me, so if someone comes in my lane, I'm already looking for another lane. If you have three lanes and enter the busiest lane affecting traffic speed, then you're in the wrong if everyone else is at or below the speed limit.

Dale, I really like your suggestion that a discussion of road rage be a mandatory part of Driver's Ed. Even though it doesn't mean most people will think about it, at least they will have some exposure to it. And that seems to be the best we can do at the present.

BTW, I am not immune to road rage and (some level of) aggressive driving. I was in the middle of a nice glide when someone decided to turn onto the road I was traveling on. It was three lanes in each direction, and I was in the center lane with nobody around me. (My intent was that people could easily turn into the right lane without worrying about me.) This person decided to turn into the middle lane, right in front of me, and stay there. She was doing about 20 MPH in a 35 (or is that road 40 at that point?) zone, and my standard P&G on that road is 40-30 MPH. By the time I realized that she wasn't going to speed up, traffic surrounded us and I could not go around on either side. She proceeded in the center lane at 20 MPH for the next four blocks, at which point I (safely) passed and got in front of her. I made sure to accelerate low and slow from the lights while she was behind me... Because I was pissed off at her for meaninglessly impeding my way.

That's definitely something I need to work on--letting go when someone does something breath-takingly stupid that impacts me... At least I recognized that I was dropping into road rage, and let it go at slow acceleration...

-soD

Oh that really irks me... REALLY irks me when that happens. If i road rage i just keep it in the car, i won't flip the bird, flash lights or honk etc. I'll just shout to vent, shake my head and get over it, not much you can do about it.