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As I learn more about the Insight, more questions crop up. That goes double for the CVT-equipped version vs. the more capable and better known 5MT w/ lean burn. There are a lot of advantages to the CVT including cleaner emission, less trouble with the IMA, and availability. (Nobody panic, I really don't think I'm going shopping.) But I haven't read nearly as much about real FE capabilities with a CVT. The GH database puts the middle 50% between 52-60mpg vs. 60-72mpg for the MT. But the sample size for the MT is three times the population of the CVTs. Makes me wonder how many people have really put it through its paces year-round at the 90%+ effort levels that our best MT pilots have done.

Any qualified opinions? I think what I'm really asking is, how "disappointing" would it be to hypermile with a CVT?

This is coming from a guy on his 4th Honda, but I don't think I'd get the CVT Insight unless it was a steal. The Prius II can match it on fuel economy. Have not check out the emissions, but I'd say they are probably even. Both the Prius II and CVT Insight are about equal except one seats five - the other seats two.

From a price standpoint, you might be able to get a CVT Insight for 10K and avoid paying 30K for a Prius.

....and yes, it seems the battery pack problems would be less on a CVT. :)

Wayne, just after HybridFest 2006, you were planning to hypermile Linda's CVT Insight. Did you do it?

Hi Tim:

___There are so few that push their CVT’s that the data would inconclusive at best. I have read of CVT’s punching through 90 mpg for segments but I do not know if anyone has even touched 80 for a tank? A LS P&G would drive them up into the 130 - 140 range but not at speeds you or I would drive for anything but a very small % of our daily drives …

___The CVT’s are about a second to a second and a half slower to 60 then the sticks, have a .5 lower compression ratio, no lean-burn, SULEV vs. ULEV on LS fuel, and weigh between 95 and 125 #’s more. You more then likely would not be happy with one although the longevity question would help in your current locale. When you move, the 5-speed would become your darling if you live anywhere near the flatter sections of the Carolina’s along the coast ;)

___I think that the Prius II would be a best fit for your commute today but I would be guessing?

___I did see that someone picked up a TCH for $1,500 under MSRP although those things get expensive really quick with any packages. At least people are starting to see deals on those finally as well?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

DF - Economics is the primary reason that I'm playing with the numbers at all. My most conservative estimates involve a $12,000 car, $2.80 average for gasoline, the true cost to insure it, 60mpg for my 18,000mi/year, and a $2000 residual value at the end of the 5 year period (Accord estimate is $2800). Maintenance costs being roughly equal, I come out $2k ahead of the game after 5 years. About even if the pack dies. However it's way ahead on CO2 emissions, oil useage, slightly ahead on emissions if it's a SULEV, and lighyears ahead making my girlfriend shake her head at me :D. (Last time I pointed to one she yelled "EEEWWWWW!" Then I explained what it can do. ;) )

Anyway, that still doesn't necessarily mean I would trade for one. But I'll never know for sure unless I ask the questions, do the math, and go see some up close.

Wayne, thanks for responding. There are two things that always push me back a bit on the Prius, which are money and highway mileage. The money thing is just a personal desire not to take out any more loans on what would honestly be a toy vs. keeping the Accord. As far as mileage is concened, my 40 mile commute (75% rural, 25% interstate) accounds for about half of my annual mileage. The rest is primarily New England interstate driving. Given what I've heard in the rumor mill, I think it would be smarter to hold out for a next-gen Prius with better highway FE vs. snapping one up now. Truth be told, I think I would have to make some compromise regardless of whether I went HSD or IMA.

You know what I'm thinking (and typing for some reason)? Why would I be looking at CVT Insights without looking for 5MT Civic Hybrids, too? I could probably match the FE while gaining a couple of doors, to boot. Insurance costs might cancel out fuel savings but you never know.

There are scads of these things on autotrader, some for not too much money.

Hi Tim:

___If you could find a low mile 03 HCH-I w/ a stick and the PZEV rating attached for a great price, you might be on to something. Drop those babies into 5th riding lean burn and nothing can touch them other then an Insight. Come up with an Assist disable and nothing can touch them around town either! All except a Prius II and an Insight that is ;)

___I was considering a story the other day about how the hybrids residuals have come down to match the real world and what you are seeing in Autotrader is probably the end result. If I run into that story again, I will post the link for you.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Any particular reason you suggest the '03 in particular? Cost of the slightly older vehicle would be better, but did Honda make any changes for '04 that would impact FE?

Hi Tim:

___Nope, just the cost …

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I got an insurance quote and crunched numbers. The insurance came out better than expected for a Civic, which is to say it's even with the Accord. The analysis used 55LMPG and $2.80/gal over 5 years with a conservative residual on the HCH. It breaks dead even at about $12,000 OTD for the civic. That would be a tough number to meet but you never know what could crop up this winter if the market stays relatively flat.

I found a couple on dealer lots within 15 miles of me. Planning to go poke around one on Saturday and maybe, just maybe get my first few miles behind the wheel of a hybrid :D .

Hi Tim:

___Boy, nobody is giving away the 03’s either :( A heads up but I remember a few lucky souls picking up brand new 04’s w. sticks for < $17K brand new just before gasoline prices took off in early 05.

___Although I would prefer a stick, there is an 03 w/ a CVT up on Ebay right now that looks attractive.

03 White HCH-I w/ CVT - 37,502 miles - Buy it Now: $13,995. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-Civic-Hybrid-2003-Honda-Civic-Hybrid-CLEAN-ONE-OWNER-LOW-MILES_W0QQitemZ110062106745QQihZ001QQcategoryZ6256QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

___Buyer Beware and YMMV with all used car transactions of course.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Tim:

___And to add … a PP - Beige 03 w/ CVT and 50,250 K on the clock in Good condition sold for $12,950 last week. Cannot link it but if you have an E-Bay ID, you can search past auctions (within the last 7 days) and find it. Another 03 w/ CVT and 38,750 miles went out at $13,200 but it was dinged up pretty bad w/ rear bumper paint scraped along the crease and the left door was hit by something big.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Within 10 miles of here there are two in the $10-12k range with 75-85k miles a piece. Can't really tell from the pics how beaten up they are, and even then I could only consider a PZEV. In CT that gets me the 15/150 warranty on emissions and most IMA parts, and 10/150 on the battery. Only hitch is that I don't think it would transfer with me if and when I move out of state.

There's another one that's much nicer...an '05 w/stick and <40,000mi. But they are asking nearly $18k for it which is way more than I can justify on an economic basis. Then again the difference in miles could be 2-3 years worth of driving. A few in the 60,000mi range tend to list for $15k-17k.

In the end it's going to come down to what I find on the market, and being brutally honest with myself about the total cost of ownership. 50/50 odds that I'm rebuilding my skillset on another vehicle by April?

Heh. How's that for a guy who tried to convince himself he wasn't going shopping? ;)

Hi Tim:

___I checked KBB TIV (Trade in Values) for an 03 w/ a stick and 50K miles yesterday. The Good condition TIV showed almost $14K but KBB’s TIV’s are about as reliable as knowing the wind speed by placing your index finger up in the air. Terry works inside an Acura dealership and I bet he can get his hands on the actual auction prices of 03 HCH’s from around the country. Most used car dealerships will use the auction prices or Black Books vs. what we can get our hands on (KBB, Edmunds, MSN Autos, Cars.com …). Those numbers are usually significantly lower then what we have seen but it would give you an idea as to how much a dealer may have paid/allowed for a trade in. It should help on the negotiating side anyway?

___About the HCH-I. I have driven Tom’s 03 CVT for about 200 miles and all I can hopefully provide is that she allowed me 72 mpg’s on the way out to a P&G testing ground and 77 mpg’s back cruising down the Interstate and with very few tricks thrown at her other then DWL and keeping my speeds between 48 and 55 mph in light Chicago traffic. Throw in some P&G for a short 100 + mpg segment, HS P&G where those opportunities present themselves, plus some minor drafting and I would imagine a 70 + lmpg for those really wanting to push it with a mostly highway commute such as yours. For those that do not, a more normal 45 - 50 lmpg depending on their city/highway mix and daily destinations distance from home. I believe you would live in the upper 10% because of your ability to push the Accord so you should possibly expect a 60 lmpg more then likely? Low 70’s as a peak in the summer months and maybe low to mid 50’s in the trough of winter would be my guess based on your Accord experience. The 1.3 in leanburn at a steady load cruise is a sight to behold while behind the windscreen and only the Insight 5-speed can perform similarly while out on the highway! And AS (Autostop) really works to save fuel at stop lights and signs if you are not willing to run her through a FAS.

___Another positive note, very few HCH’s have had to have pack replacements or have been destroyed that I have heard of. I know of two CVT’s that got trashed in a communal share/test program and it just so happened to be a Bank One outlet in which these two CVT’s were trashed. The study pointed me towards an individual rather then the automobiles given the studies testing conclusions with a number of hybrid vehicles across a variety of industries.

___And the warranty … Yes, the Clean States PZEV warranty is huge and I am glad you brought it up. My PZEV has the same warranty except I registered it in IL. which nullifies the 150K miles and places me right back to the std. 3/36 - 5/60 on emissions IIRC? When I was speaking to Honda Care about this question back in early 05, they said if you had purchased and registered the PZEV in a Clean State and then moved, there would be an allowance for that circumstance to maintain the lengthy warranty intact. I did not follow it up as I was not in that situation so you may have to do some homework on your own. I can find you a number for Honda Care if you cannot find it on your own if you want to call. I owned the Insight at the time I was speaking to them so at least I could keep a CSR on the phone for 5 minutes. Your owning the Accord may lead to the same?

___Can you tell I am almost as excited as you just considering the possibility of placing a hybrid in your hands. Even if you do not follow through, this thread’s discussion may help others that are on the fence.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

One of these days I want to pull apart one of those mechanical
CVTs and convince myself that they work at all. Sliding sheaves?
eek. However, the rumor mill seems to indicate that they're
*not* holding up all that well in general ... is that true or
can someone set me straight on that?
.
The Prius' electrical version may sustain a little conversion
loss, but mechanically it's so beautifully *simple*...
.
_H*

This is coming from a guy on his 4th Honda, but I don't think I'd get the CVT Insight unless it was a steal. The Prius II can match it on fuel economy. Have not check out the emissions, but I'd say they are probably even. Both the Prius II and CVT Insight are about equal except one seats five - the other seats two.

From a price standpoint, you might be able to get a CVT Insight for 10K and avoid paying 30K for a Prius.


One other factor you have to investigate.. Looks My wife who will be driving our insight. (still in Ohio) thinks the Prius is ugly and nixed it Quick.:D