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As I mentioned earlier, my wife is looking for a new car. Her main complaint about the Prius is that there is only seating for 5. Even though we have 4 in our family, she wants more seats to accommodate the kids friends and the in laws when they visit.

My thoughts were for a Camry CE or Accord DX. I love the look of the new Camry but we are not considering the TCH because the cost is too high. When Toyota says that HSD is a $2000 adder, that is looking at it with rose colored glasses. The TCH lists for over 26k while the Camry CE can be had for less than 21k. I'm not interested in all of the fancy options that come standard with the TCH so for me, the HSD premium is over 5k. Since my wife would be driving it only 30 miles per day, it would take a long time for the payback, if ever.

But the Camry doesn't solve the 5 seat issue. She had looked at Highlanders awhile back but they are way out of our price range and the FE sucks, even on the 2WD. But then I noticed that the RAV4 had optional 3rd row seating, 7 seats in all. So I headed over to the Toyota dealership in Raliegh for a test drive.

The RAV 4 is very nice! I drove the base model 2wd 4 cylinder, 17" alloy wheels and 3rd row seating and was very impressed. Weighing in at 3300 lbs, I didn't feel that I was driving a pig. The 24/30 EPA estimate was also a pleasant surprise. With it's 0.33Cd, I wouldn't be surprised to see 35MPG on the highway at 60 MPH or so. The salesman quoted me $500 over dealer invoice, $22,700. Out the door with tax and other fees was $23,865, only $100 more than what I paid for the Prius 3 years ago. I can live with that.

So perhaps a compromise is in the works. I'm headed back to Pittsburgh tomorrow morning. Maybe over the weekend we will go for a test drive.

On another note, I wasn't able to test drive a TCH because they didn't have one. They are flying off the lot. The Prius was a different story. They had 15 or so in every color. If someone is looking for a Prius, I know where you can get one.

Hi Dan:

___Another possibility maybe? I have recently read of a non-Ford employee picking up the FEH for $200 under A-Plan pricing in the Edmunds – FEH Prices Paid and Buying Experience forums. This comes out to around $24K + tax. Subtract the $2,600 tax credit and the FEH appears to be a much better buy then the RAV4 at $22,700. The reason I mentioned this is that the RAV4’s third row seat appears to be ~ the same sizing as that in the MDX which is tiny - tiny - tiny.

Third Row|MDX|Rav4
Head|36.3|37.2
Leg|29.3|30.0
Hip|48.5|43.3
Shoulder|58.6|52.6

___With leg room of just 30”, even your children will be smashed after an hour back there. Our MDX has third row seating and except for emergency’s, we would not wish upon our worst enemy anything over 15 minutes in its supposed third row set of seats. They are simply not comfortable for any period of time due to the size allotted.

___In terms of FE and emissions, the FEH is a solid 40 + mpg’er on the highway and higher around town while meeting the AT-PZEV requirements. It will eat a RAV4 alive in terms of fuel consumption at the expense of some size and interior capacity. The $24K - $2.6K Credit comes about after optioning it up with the side and side curtains which is a must have in my book nowadays.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wow. 0.33cd is the same as my Accord, and 3300lb is only 200lb more. I imagine frontal area is quite a bit larger but that's still pretty impressive. That might be an OK compromise if a 'cute ute' is what she wants. Only thing is that the third row seats in a car of that size might not be worth much. Make sure that the people who will be sitting there actually fit. In a lot of cases it has to be small kids at most.

I sat in those seats and I was not at all uncomfortable. They fold into the floor when you aren't using them. They wouldn't be used much, just once in a blue moon.

I thought about the FEH but it only seats 5 and I am hesitant to buy a Ford. I lost faith in American cars some time ago. Are there any issues with the FEH?

Hi Dan:

___I cannot personally speak for the FEH but can about the Ranger. Best truck I have ever owned in terms of reliability, utility, fuel economy and especially the price. Reading the Ford Escape Hybrid forums for as long as I have, they appear to be about as bullet proof as a mini-ute can be. The Pack is protected far more then the Toyota’s with a much smaller range of SoC in which to play with. Its tranny is from the same source as that of the Prius II, HiHy, RXh, TCH, and the Lexus sedans. That being Aisin. The interior fit/finish appears to be top notch and the end user responses always seem to praise it for its fit/finish, drivability, and especially its FE. That last one is something you rarely see from a Hybrid driver but the EPA combined is a lot easier to achieve in it then in a Prius II for example.

___I bet Pravus Prime, Debbie and Gary will be all over this thread is a very short while to convince you of the same. A full blown hybrid with almost as much size and utility for less money then what the RAV4 will cost seems like a good deal to me. Receiving that under A-Plan pricing might take some doing but you are not the kind of guy to over pay for a depreciating asset and I have no doubt you will find close to the best deal in the US when you put your mind to it.

___You need to go for a long ride squeezed into those rear seats. I am not that much taller then you but they are a nightmare for any adult and we have had them folded away into the flat floor for the past 2 years given the kids are too large to fit in them anymore. I say kids w/ the youngest being 14 and taller then Marian now ;)

___If worst comes to worst, when gasoline is back up over $3.00 in 08/09, you can always sell it for what you paid and go buy the RAV4 with a year of updates attached to it? At least I suspect gasoline will be up above $3.00 by mid 08 anyway? The warranty is top notch given it is a hybrid drivetrain so you have that on your side as well.

___$21,600 is a hell of a deal on a full blown hybrid SUV if you ask me?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The seating capacity is the issue. If 5 seats was OK with her then we would keep the status quo.

Hi Dan:

___If your wife would like to speak to Marian about the third row seats in the MDX, she is home throughout the Holidays. We may be heading out to South Carolina after the first of Dec. and would be glad to meet up with you and the Mrs. on our way through if you two are up for it?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'll PM you.

Both the Ford Ranger and the Escape are really rebadged Mazda's. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either of those two "Ford" products even though I too will not buy a current "American" car (The car with most American content is currently the Honda Accord). The Ford Fusion (Mazda 6) is another excellent example of wise rebadging from Ford.

Well, Gee, I see Wayne is doing a pretty bang up job.

As for the FEH, yes, not only can I say that it's solid as a rock, but other people think so as well. Consumer Reports rated it as the best hybrid SUV on the market last year, the (shoot, the real agencies name has slipped my mind, I've got the NHSI stuck in there) Automotive Complaints Agency said that there were actually fewer complaints about the FEH then even the Ford Escape, and rated it as a great buy. At Edmunds, the consumers give the FEH a very high rating as well for customer satisfaction. The battery pack is designed to easily outlast the vehicle. So far, there has been 0 failures, even in the extreme testing lab.

Personally, I've hauled 5 adults around with ease, none of them complained about space being an issue, something they did when I had the Explorer. In addition to a lot of cargo; even off road I've always been pleasantly surprised. Getting EPA MPG's is easy, really. If you can get a good price on it, I highly suggest you go for it if that's the kind of vehicle you want.

Might I also suggest looking at the FEH FAQ (Yeah, I'm going to keep pulling that out until I'm dead!) http://www.greenhybrid.com/wiki/index.php/Ford_Escape_Hybrid_FAQ Plus, in the winter, you'll be shocked at how fast you get heat.

If nothing else, might I suggest test driving one?

Hi Dan

Not much to add to the responses for the FEH other than I have my choice as to the gas mileage I get. You have the ability to push the Prius, so I know you would have as much fun as I do pushing the FWD FEH. This past summer, I had no problems keeping my FEH above 42mpg tanks running the A/C. This winter here in So. Florida, I hope to get a few mid 50's mpg tanks.

BTW, I have an '02 Explorer with the third row seat and have used it only a few times to pack to small kids in or one large kid. If you can get 6 or 7 people in a RAV4, and feel the mileage is acceptable, go for it.

GaryG

Thanks Gary. I am sure that I would have a great time pushing the FEH. The problem is that it would be for my wife, not me.

Hi Dan --

Sorry I haven't spoken up sooner, but we were out of town for Thanksgiving.

I heartily endorse the FEH. I've had mine for almost 2 years & I love it so much I've sent long emails to both my local dealer & Ford in Detroit telling them so, & why.

It's a good, solid vehicle, with plenty of room for our uses; my husband is comfortable in it (he's 6'2"); it handles easily - I can even parallel-park it:p; & it will seat 5 adults comfortably - because it's front-wheel drive, there's no lump running through the middle of the back-seat area:)

As far as FE is concerned, while you would no doubt have fun pushing the mpg's, it's an easy vehicle drive to some pretty good numbers even if you're not trying. I was exceeding the EPA estimates before I really knew what I was doing:D And since I've met this crew, it's gotten even better - for most of the summer/early fall my tanks were in the 40+mpg's, & this AM, after driving to Sheboygan & back (total of 130mi. at 55mph), plus a little around town, my FEH is parked with 38.5mpg (& that was without my cardboard over the grille & having forgotten to plug the block heater in Wed. night:rolleyes:)

I had given up on American cars back in the eighties, because I felt that the people making them weren't working as hard for their dollars as I was for mine, but whoever is involved in putting the FEH together has earned their paycheck as far as I'm concerned:) :)

Thanks everyone for your input!

We went car shopping yesterday. We started at Honda where we looked at a few Accords, the Civic LX and CRV. The Accord "Value Package" was the most attractive of the lot because of the price, $19500. The Civic was too small for her taste. None could carry more than 5 passengers.

The we went accross the street to Ford. We sat inside the Escape Hybrid and the first comment she made was that she felt like she was in a truck. I said, that's because you are in a truck! She was not happy with the interior styling either. I talked to the salesman about price and he wasn't willing to go below 25k. We left without a test drive.

Then we went to Toyota and test drove a Camry LE. Very sharp looking car with a great interior. She liked it except that it only had 5 seats. I test drove it and found it to be dissappointing. I guess I expected a smoother 4cyl, it seemed buzzy to me. The ride was great but uninspiring. Then we looked at the RAV 4. She really liked the interior and we both tested out the 2nd and 3rd row seats. Yes, they are cramped, but our kids are 50 lbs each and they were quite happy back there. They also liked the fact that they could each have thier own row. The test drive was great. I found that the engine seemed smoother than the Camry, but maybe that is just my imagination. It does have slightly more torque and HP than the Camry which might be the difference. So it looks like we will be getting the RAV 4. When compared to the Accord at 24/34 and the Camry at 24/33, the RAV 4 at 24/30 seems like a small FE sacrifice for the extra utility.

Picked up the RAV4 yesterday. The whole family is very satisfied so far. What was surprising is that it much quieter in the inside than the Prius was. It also has electric steering which has a better feel than the Prius.

There were two other pleasant surprises. I checked the max pressure on the 225/65/17 Yokohama G91's and it was 44 PSI. First thing I did when I got home was to press them up from 30 to 45 PSI. And as always, I read the owners manual thoroughly. Here is what it said about the oil:

"SAE 5W-20 or 0W-20 engine oil may be used. However, SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather".

After about 1500 miles of break-in, I will be adding Mobil 1 0W-20.:)

Oh yea, her name is "Paradox"

Hi Dan:

___I passed on a note to Tom about the “Paradox” going into the Dbase. He will have a look at it very soon …

___More importantly, do you have a SG-II or SuperMid in her yet :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

My scangauge shipped over a week ago but the change in address happened the next day so it is probably bouncing around between post offices right now. My wife drove it home from the dealer and then I took it out to fill the tank. I ran a few errands today and have about 50 miles on her. Tomorrow I will put a few miles on and top off again, only because I am dying to find out what she is worth. :rolleyes: Fingers crossed for 35MPG.

Very happy so far with the Rav 4. We had a weekend trip to the beach and turned in some impressive numbers. I filled up Thursday evening and brought her home with 38.x on the SG. The wife drove from Raliegh to Fayetteville with the kids and pup and picked me up at work at 5PM. The SG showed 33.x. On the segment from Fayetteville to Myrtle Beach, I drove and scored 34.5 for the 113 mile drive. Then 50 miles around town over the weekend at 32 MPG. Finnally, on the trip back to Fayetteville to pick up the Prius, I managed 37.4! Slight tailwind and 55-60 MPH speeds. We will be taking the RAV 4 to Pitt this weekend and I am going to try to keep the speed down to 65. Hoping for 30+.

Hi Dan:

___You are doing great in the RAV4 and with a little time to let her loosen up, I can see a 40 + segment coming soon!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

SG showed 29.5 MPG, 12.9 gallons. Gallons pumped was 13.43. I went thru the fillup sequence and the SG is now set to -9% down from -3%. I'm not at all impressed with the SG. It seems to be all over the place. So take 6% off of the numbers quoted above. Still, not too bad. We are on the road starting tomorrow with the RAV 4. Hopefully the calibration is nailed down now and I can still get a 33 MPG tank.

Hi Dan:

___It appears that your first fill was just 4% off which is well within anything drawing a data stream via OBD-II. What I have seen in the Honda’s is a larger negative offset needed as I FAS more as well as a larger negative offset with colder temps. The Ranger is dead on under FAS or not because the OBD-2 stream comes alive almost instantly after a FAS vs. the Honda’s 5 + seconds :( This is an OBD-2 issue with the Honda’s, not SG-II. The more you FAS, the more you will have to add negative FE offsets from what I see. If you just drive highway with little ICE-Off tricks thrown, it becomes as accurate as the OEM’s once calibrated.

___I saw you were messing with the odo offsets earlier as well. Have you changed those back if they match your distance (without FAS’s).

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The ODO is well calibrated, the FASing doesn't seem to effect it. During the drive to Pittsburgh, I managed 28.5 MPG at 65 MPH cruise speed. Not what I had hoped but I had a 10 MPH headwind, +1000ft elevation delta and low 40's temps the whole way. The SG is calibrated now at -6% and holding steady.