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What type of FE techniques seemed to work best on your HCH II? Have you made any modifications to your HCH II? Have you considered making your HCH II plug in? Have you conducted any experiments regarding FE using your HCH II?

:Banane35: :Banane35: I thought this might be a good thread to discuss some of the unique features of the HCH II. :cool:

Hi Ed:

___I was not sure exactly where you were going with this thread but as we have discussed before, if an HCH-II were in my garage, I would seriously consider going after an assist disable mod. With the ability to work around Honda’s programming, the 1.3 should be capable of numbers I believe would be far superior to the OEM setup as Honda designed it for us. Using all the EPA busting techniques available including those Tarabell has written about makes the HCH-II all that much more capable imho.

___As for the rest of the mods, it already has a Cd of between .25 and .27 more then likely, the LRR tires are some of the best in the business and its OEM instrumentation is first rate. PHEV would be a waste with an IMA equipped hybrid as there just is not that much capacity to play with and it is only assist for such a short period of time to be almost worthless. Not entirely but to come up with a way to re-program the BCM for off-the grid charging as well as the small amount of power you receive from it, it seems like a moot point imho. A Block heater would be extremely valuable however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne,

I think we have taken most of the car apart at this point to better understand some of its limitations. We even drove it for a bit with the IPU power cut-off switch in the off position to get a sense of how much the electric motor assists-- we noticed a significant improvement in accelleration when we turned it back on. Also, we found out if the batteries go bad we can still drive the car on the ICE, which I don't think is possible on the prius.

Cheers :cool:

Hi Ed:

___It is not about the accel with the pack as it most certainly helps. A test of an HCH-I to 60 mph with a full pack vs. depleted one ended up at almost 4 seconds faster. It is the forced charge when you get below 4 bars that is the killer. You do not need assist for maximum FE in any situation I can think of other then if you need the boost to get out of the way of an accident. If you can cycle the Accel w/out assist into a Glide w/ every overpass/hill/undulation at let us say 60 +, you have something. Running assist from 50 to 65 mph will nail that pack in less then 3 miles and the end result is your segment FE is toast with the forced charge taking your HCH-II out to the woodshed for the payback :( Remove assist for any of these scenarios and I can bet she is good for 80 + in a HS P&G at real highway speeds.

___You are correct. The Prius II’s pack goes, you are on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Do you think keeping the battery fully charged more often would add to the life of the battery?


Hi Ed:

___I was not sure exactly where you were going with this thread but as we have discussed before, if an HCH-II were in my garage, I would seriously consider going after an assist disable mod. With the ability to work around Honda’s programming, the 1.3 should be capable of numbers I believe would be far superior to the OEM setup as Honda designed it for us. Using all the EPA busting techniques available including those Tarabell has written about makes the HCH-II all that much more capable imho.

___As for the rest of the mods, it already has a Cd of between .25 and .27 more then likely, the LRR tires are some of the best in the business and its OEM instrumentation is first rate. PHEV would be a waste with an IMA equipped hybrid as there just is not that much capacity to play with and it is only assist for such a short period of time to be almost worthless. Not entirely but to come up with a way to re-program the BCM for off-the grid charging as well as the small amount of power you receive from it, it seems like a moot point imho. A Block heater would be extremely valuable however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Ed:

___Not exactly but running one up and down with an almost continuous charge/discharge cycle does limit its life. Cycling it through every 6 months with it lying at 6 - 7 of 8 bars 95% of the time should help it last well beyond the life of the car. The pack should last the life of the car just driving it but I just do not like to rely on a piece of HW whose life is decreased some small fraction of a % every time I use it is all … I cannot do much about the ICE but I can do something about the pack.

___Here is a driving scenario for you to consider w/ an Assist disable mod … Your HCH-II is sitting in your drive at 7 of 8 bars. You coast out of your drive and start her up some distance down the road. You bring her up slow so as to use a minimal amount of assist while heading to the Interstate. Bring her up the rest of the way and you should be sitting at 6 of 8 bars possibly. Engage your assist disable and let OEM algorithm bring her pack back to 7 of 8 and start HS P&G’ing. The Accord can be worth upwards of 55 + mpg in this driving mode. The HCH-II could be worth upwards of 80 - 90 mpg and you can use its built in EV/Glide modes rather then what us non-hybrid drivers have to go through. Cycle the assist disable switch so as to use a small amount in very specific sections of your commute but disable it at every opportunity because of the packs harsh payback. This is how I would attempt to drive an HCH-II at highway speeds. Without the disable switch, every HS Pulse is going to suck that pack dry and you know what happens at 4 of 8 bars.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This all makes sense to us. Any suggestions for going after an assist disable mod? cheers :flag:

Hi Ed:

___Mike D. has an idea how to create the mod but does not yet have an HCH-II to play with. Expect to hear of the fix within the next few months. There was a guy talking about it a few months ago that was chasing it down on his own with a friend but I have no idea if he ever came up with anything?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne: We will keep our ears open for more to come. Thanks for ALL your help.

... There was a guy talking about it a few months ago that was chasing it down on his own with a friend but I have no idea if he ever came up with anything?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Ed & Wayne;

Yes. That was me. Gee, time goes by very quick, doesn't it.

Recently, we've applied the mod to my car as well. That makes it two cars we've installed it on and it seems reasonably discrete unless of course you look under the dash, the dead pedal & under carpeting & trim. We had some "qualified" advice from Honda in an attempt to lessen our experimentation losses and that has made the module a little more complicated than we think it needs to be.

Despite the fact that it is a little more complex than we had initially hoped for, it does perform very well. I suspect that if used properly it can really help the HCH-2 get some pretty good numbers - particularly for folks who do alot of highway-like driving. For city driving it does not really help that much unless we get into heavy stop & go traffic. However, I must admit it is an addictive mod as I find myself pressing the dead pedal button almost instinctively in order to inhibit the assist on moderate accellerations. Heck I even find myself pressing the dead pedal when driving our Acura. :confused:

Ed, if you are considering an assist-inhibit module then I'll be happy to discuss the design and implementation details particularly on what it consists of and the things to avoid. We did not have what I would call a good startup mainly because we approached the solution a little too naively. As a result of that I believe we almost had an entire IPU replaced. Fortunately it did not come to that but it came pretty close in cost anyway.

Please PM me if you are interested.


Cheers;

MSantos

Hi MSantos:

___Thank you for the update as it has been a long time.

___And now about the Assist-inhibit relaying scheme and what you tap to make it work ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___And now about the Assist-inhibit relaying scheme and what you tap to make it work ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne



Sure. Why not.

Our module taps into the following:

The DLC port. We used an interface input port based on the ELM327 (SOIC package) this enables us to read the vehicles RPM which is a constraint in the inhibit rule. The inhibit will be active if RPM <2500 and RPM>750 and not impeded by another constraint.
We're also looking for DTC codes that relate to the IMA with special emphasis on MCM & BCM related codes. In total we're monitoring a good set of them. If no codes are found the constraint to inhibit is removed. A delay of 500ms is used after the removal of constraint.
The wiring harness that feeds gauge control module.This is a 36 wire harness that feeds the dash. Its a simple matter of decoding the protocol and then deriving the constraint states based on what interests us. The following are just a few of the constraints.
The inhibit will be active if trasmission is set on D and not impeded by another constraint.
The inhibit will be active if the IMA indicator is OFF and not impeded by another constraint.
The inhibit will be active if the MIL indicator is OFF and not impeded by another constraint.
A delay of 700ms is used after the last state read for any of the constraints listed above.
The MCM connector.This is a 20 pin connector and we're tapping into into several wires here. We also introduced a normally closed relay that interrupts the activation of the of the MCM 2 relay. Two of the wires in the 20 pin connector are being read and used as constraints in the inhibit rule. I do not recall the exact states.

A new harness which introduces a heavy duty push button mounted on the dead pedal.
The inhibit will be active if the button is depressed and not impeded by another constraint.
Now, to handle all of the above we constructed a board powered by a low power CMOS 6809 CPU made by Hitachi. The application of the rules is made in assembly. Fortunately there is no shortage of emulators to test the program before commiting to hardware.

A few other things to note:
-All inputs are fully buffered and protected -just in case.
-The delays are necessary in order to ensure proper operation and confirmation of states. This avoids issues sometimes related to the vehicles' own governance systems.
-All IPU modules were upgraded to the very latest software.
<EDIT>
-Oh, I almost forgot. The inhibits only work in bursts of at most 20 seconds at a time. IF the 20 seconds are exceeded the inhibit will only work 5 seconds later.
There are a few other constraints but they are less relevant.
</EDIT>

Thats pretty much it.
Anything beyond this would require me to have the schematics in front of me. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

:bananalama: Now this is very, very helpful. We need to find sometime to discuss some details when you get a chance sometime this spring when we try this mod out on our HCH II-- Silent Opec Nightmare.

Cheers!!!


Sure. Why not.

Our module taps into the following:

The DLC port. We used an interface input port based on the ELM327 (SOIC package) this enables us to read the vehicles RPM which is a constraint in the inhibit rule. The inhibit will be active if RPM <2500 and RPM>750 and not impeded by another constraint.
We're also looking for DTC codes that relate to the IMA with special emphasis on MCM & BCM related codes. In total we're monitoring a good set of them. If no codes are found the constraint to inhibit is removed. A delay of 500ms is used after the removal of constraint.
The wiring harness that feeds gauge control module.This is a 36 wire harness that feeds the dash. Its a simple matter of decoding the protocol and then deriving the constraint states based on what interests us. The following are just a few of the constraints.
The inhibit will be active if trasmission is set on D and not impeded by another constraint.
The inhibit will be active if the IMA indicator is OFF and not impeded by another constraint.
The inhibit will be active if the MIL indicator is OFF and not impeded by another constraint.
A delay of 700ms is used after the last state read for any of the constraints listed above.
The MCM connector.This is a 20 pin connector and we're tapping into into several wires here. We also introduced a normally closed relay that interrupts the activation of the of the MCM 2 relay. Two of the wires in the 20 pin connector are being read and used as constraints in the inhibit rule. I do not recall the exact states.

A new harness which introduces a heavy duty push button mounted on the dead pedal.
The inhibit will be active if the button is depressed and not impeded by another constraint.
Now, to handle all of the above we constructed a board powered by a low power CMOS 6809 CPU made by Hitachi. The application of the rules is made in assembly. Fortunately there is no shortage of emulators to test the program before commiting to hardware.

A few other things to note:
-All inputs are fully buffered and protected -just in case.
-The delays are necessary in order to ensure proper operation and confirmation of states. This avoids issues sometimes related to the vehicles' own governance systems.
-All IPU modules were upgraded to the very latest software.
<EDIT>
-Oh, I almost forgot. The inhibits only work in bursts of at most 20 seconds at a time. IF the 20 seconds are exceeded the inhibit will only work 5 seconds later.
There are a few other constraints but they are less relevant.
</EDIT>

Thats pretty much it.
Anything beyond this would require me to have the schematics in front of me. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi Wayne:

I keep the Bond Mobile in the garage. The doors for the cars are insulated, as are the walls, so it's surely an improvement over sitting out in the driveway. Any idea how much of an improvement a block heater might bring? Winters here are mild compared to your neck of the woods.

It seems that the ICE is pretty much warmed up in a mile or two after I leave the house, and I see mid 30's on the mpg display at this point in the segment. My indication that the ICE is warm is that I feel warm air coming out of the vents. Switching the display mode to engine temp seems to mess up my driving concentration. Guess I'm not a great multitasker! Anyway, going by the seat of the pants "feel", I seem to notice a reduction in glide performance as the commute progresses, possibly due to the tires cooling off as exposure to colder air and road surfaces? Without instumentation to verify, this is just my guess. There is what I call a "sweet spot" where if I manipulate pedal pressure correctly, the car runs very smoothly in a glide with the iFCD pegged high, no assist bars visible and the ICE seems to be in some kind of - I don't know - "stealth mode" or something? I can definitly feel a significant drop in vibration when the car is in this "mode". But it gets harder and harder to obtain this performance as the segment progresses, and I think it's because rr is going up as the effect of colder temps come into play on the tires? Any ideas?

The IMA inhibit mod discussed previously sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Bob

Hi, Bob:

Block heaters are the better way to go in cold climates. I am not sure how much FE you would really gain in VA. Remember, you have to pay to heat the heater.

Cheers :flag:


Hi Wayne:

I keep the Bond Mobile in the garage. The doors for the cars are insulated, as are the walls, so it's surely an improvement over sitting out in the driveway. Any idea how much of an improvement a block heater might bring? Winters here are mild compared to your neck of the woods.

It seems that the ICE is pretty much warmed up in a mile or two after I leave the house, and I see mid 30's on the mpg display at this point in the segment. My indication that the ICE is warm is that I feel warm air coming out of the vents. Switching the display mode to engine temp seems to mess up my driving concentration. Guess I'm not a great multitasker! Anyway, going by the seat of the pants "feel", I seem to notice a reduction in glide performance as the commute progresses, possibly due to the tires cooling off as exposure to colder air and road surfaces? Without instumentation to verify, this is just my guess. There is what I call a "sweet spot" where if I manipulate pedal pressure correctly, the car runs very smoothly in a glide with the iFCD pegged high, no assist bars visible and the ICE seems to be in some kind of - I don't know - "stealth mode" or something? I can definitly feel a significant drop in vibration when the car is in this "mode". But it gets harder and harder to obtain this performance as the segment progresses, and I think it's because rr is going up as the effect of colder temps come into play on the tires? Any ideas?

The IMA inhibit mod discussed previously sounds interesting.

Thanks,

Bob

Now that we have had more time with our HCH II's, perhaps it is time to update this thread.

Our MPG has really improved this summer over last summer. We have recorded a few tanks in the 90's under ideal conditions. What seems to be helping your MPG the most?

We think keeping the air filter very clean and the engine oil fresh helps. We always change our oil when the meter reads approx. 40% on our Civic, use 0w-20 Mobil 1, a Mobil 1 oil filter, and only use 3 qts. instead of the 3.4 qts recommended leaving the dip stick showing just below the full oil line. This seems to work very well for us. We have always had many trouble free miles using Mobil 1 products in our vehicles.



__________________
Best, Ed & Drew


What type of FE techniques seemed to work best on your HCH II? Have you made any modifications to your HCH II? Have you considered making your HCH II plug in? Have you conducted any experiments regarding FE using your HCH II?

Now that we have had more time with our HCH II's, perhaps it is time to update this thread.

Our MPG has really improved this summer over last summer. We have recorded a few tanks in the 90's under ideal conditions. What seems to be helping your MPG the most?

We think keeping the air filter very clean and the engine oil fresh helps. We always change our oil when the meter reads approx. 40% on our Civic, use 0w-20 Mobil 1, a Mobil 1 oil filter, and only use 3 qts. instead of the 3.4 qts recommended leaving the dip stick showing just below the full oil line. This seems to work very well for us. We have always had many trouble free miles using Mobil 1 products in our vehicles.
__________________
Best, Ed & Drew

What type of FE techniques seemed to work best on your HCH II? Have you made any modifications to your HCH II? Have you considered making your HCH II plug in? Have you conducted any experiments regarding FE using your HCH II?

Changing out the M1 at 40% is a waste of good oil. The M1 filters are fantastic IMO. But way over priced. Look into PureOne and Wix or Napa Gold. Wayne runs 10k to 15k miles on 0w-20 M1 in his Accord. I dont think oil effects his mpg as much as he thinks..... jab jab. I run the M1 0w-20 or 5w-20 10k miles in the wifes Accord. And will run the same in my Mazda3. And ran the same in my R-18 Civic. I think you are seeing the over all bennys of good break in. It took my Civic almost a year or better before it tried to show its upper end in mpg.

As for under filling the crank case. I take major issue with this practice. Wayne and I have beat heads on this topic, online, over the phone and face to face. The only benny that can be had is the volume of oil is reduced and there by heating said volume up faster. OK,,, I can agree with that,, thus getting/helping our engines get up to prime operation temp faster. But .4,,, I dont know. If your not foaming the oil at a factory fill why drop it. The risk of dry pumping in a corner, even with a baffled sump isnt worth it. Save two tenths of a mpg for a risk at putting a postive displacement pump and its oil paths at risk isnt worth it to me.

As for the air filter. I dont understand that at all. There is a range of operation. Not only in air volume but temp. In your case volume is your key point. The more air the engine see's the more fuel it will inject. While Honda engines seem to make good use of the air and fuel they give them selves. More air and more fuel more times than not is counter productive for a mpg driver. And more air and fuel in most I4 engines only show a increase in hp at the top end and a drop in torque on the bottom end. The bottom end is where most hypermilers hang. If anything your car should become much more drivable at the air filter seasons in. Then throw in intake air temp and you have a cluster on your hands. Ive found that intake air temps above 115f get counter productive and tems below 50f start hurting mpg bad. Mid 80f temps seem to be perfect. so could your filter maint. be tied into intake air temps?

But the bottom line is.... 90 mpg. that kicks mpg booty! :woot:

psy

Well, with that said, what data do you have to share to support your position?

Ed adn Drew,

How long does it take for you to get from 100 --> 40% oil life? 3,6,9+ months?

Are you changing out the HCH2 airfilter or "cleaning" it? About what frequency?

We use a K&N air filter so we never need to replace it. We check it often and make sure it is clean. Sometimes we just blow it clean with a little air while other times we do a complete clean. Regarding the oil, it takes us a long time to move to 40% because we use many of the hypermiling techniques and we never use AC. The time varies so it is hard to say-- approx. 6 to 7 months. BTW, since March 23 we have been averaging 78.9 MPG.:Banane06: Our best tank has been 95.5 MPG (under ideal conditions) just short of our 100+ goal.


Ed adn Drew,

How long does it take for you to get from 100 --> 40% oil life? 3,6,9+ months?

Are you changing out the HCH2 airfilter or "cleaning" it? About what frequency?