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I have been having issues with my 2007 Civic Hybrid surging when it’s coming to a stop since I’ve owned it. It typically only happens in colder weather. I brought the car in to Honda of Bellevue for this issue twice only to have them tell me that they could find nothing wrong with it. I then brought the car to Northwest Honda. The first time, they told me that it might be air bubbles in the coolant. After my husband eliminated that issue, I brought it back to Northwest Honda since the problem persisted. They found 4 software updates that they performed: (1) for fuel, (2) IMA Battery, (3) IMA Generator, (4) CVT Transmission. When I got the car back, I noticed that I was having trouble getting it to accelerate going uphill, getting on the freeway and backing into my driveway. When my husband entered the latest fuel records, he noticed a severe drop in mileage for the last tank (by about 7 mpg). We typically average 47-50 mpg in the Summer and 43-45 mpg in the Winter. After the software updates, the tank was 36.74 mpg. I brought it back to Northwest Honda, drove it with a technician who said he noticed a problem when we were on the freeway. Unfortunately, the next day I got a call saying that they couldn't find anything wrong w/it, so they drove it again and compared it to a new model and found no difference! When we asked them to deprogram the previous updates and put it back to the way it was before, they said they couldn’t do that. I am now stuck with a car that doesn’t run properly and is, frankly, unsafe. Has anyone else had an issue with their car acceleration after having some software updates performed?

Hi smallcardrvr;

Welcome to CleanMPG.


At this stage I would suggest you do the following:

- Write a letter to your nearest corporate Honda Office and CC it to the customer relations manager at Honda Corp. Also send a copy of the letter to the Service Department manager at your dealership as well as a third letter addressed to the general manager.
- The letter should include all service iterations and details.
- Please be factual, cordial and firm on facts as well as your objectives and what you expect from Honda regarding your HCH-II.

Now, for the most important step:
When you get an answer from Honda or your service department, please make sure that they will commit to:
1- Replacing the affected PCM. Software rollbacks are not possible for this module.
2- Apply the correct software version that represents the best fit for the hardware revision on the PCM module. Technicians can't always tell the difference but they have the resources at their disposal to determine how. All they have to do is ask, especially if Honda approved the work. If Honda did not, then the technicians will sometimes take the rushed approach and fail to apply the due care.

Cheers;

MSantos

msantos,

Thank you for your advice. Right now my car is at the dealer and I'm driving one of their rentals (no charge). I'm picking my car up on Monday when I expect to have to start writing letters. I should have mentioned that the car is still under warranty, though nearing the end with about 33,500 miles on it right now.

It sounds like you think the software updates may not have been for my model. I will discuss this with the manager of Northwest Honda on Monday.

Thanks again.

Hi smallcardrvr;

Not necessarily.

The HDS software is pretty good at identifying the correct software for your car. Once the tech enters the serial (VIN) number, the retrieval of any pending updates is pretty automatic.

The problem however, other than an actual flaw in your PCM, is that these issues often have more to do with software incompatibilities between adjacent systems than anything else. Because the HCH-II has many systems that are updateable, it is possible for software incompatibilities to arise between them. To resolve this Honda also released a DB update which will help the techs diagnose this type of issue quickly and thus waste less time pulling out their hair in the trouble shooting process.

At this stage, I see your PCM as the "low hanging fruit" that I would focus on for now. The approach of replacing the PCM is the most common solution for issues such as yours.

Cheers;

MSantos

MSantos, I've read a few discussions now saying that PCM (Powertrain Control Module?) cannot be reset, say to "from the factory" state. I'd assumed that the reason would be that the PCM is intrinsically linked to other components in the car: they change in tandem, and you can't subsequently revert the PCM.

It seems to be to be a design shortcoming if you can revert the PCM to original state, that there's are no ramifications to going back, but you can only do this by replacement, there's no way to simply re-boot the PCM.

To the OP, we've been noticing a bit of surging when coming to a stop, just lately. My feeling is it's the regenerative braking "letting go", but not as seamlessly as usual. I'd also speculate it's somehow temperature related, but not sure. We've had one PCM update, very soon after getting our '06, that was said to address "winter drivability", and nothing since.

Hi Mendel;

The volatile attributes of the PCM can be reset. However, it is the non-volatile aspect of it, namely the area affected by the software update that cannot. The term "roll-back" is usually used to represent this software based restriction. Yes, it was designed to behave this way for several reasons but it is clearly loaded with practical detriments.

The power train behavior due to the effective ambient temperature has not only been a primary input into the general staged behavior of the power train, but it also has been part of the governance at the functional level and I would be surprised if most of us did not notice the driveability changes whenever a new software update plays with these thresholds.

By being software driven Honda can easily move the thresholds up or down the temperature scale and also adjust the aggressiveness of the governance to match their best interpretation of what is optimal.

While I commend Honda for their bravery and the potential flexibility of the SDS they implemented, these software driven systems are not without detriments. To me these detriments are still significantly smaller than the many benefits, but on this note, there are some Honda shops and HCH-II owners who think of an SDS as nothing but a source of frustration, if not a "loss of control" of their part.

To all:
As usual, the key is feedback and I would encourage owners of these cars to not depend only on their dealers as the single solution to these issues. As soon as the dealer says "we cannot find anything wrong with your car", please, please, please... begin thinking about putting together a letter addressed to Honda and start the process early. Be nice to your dealer, but also be firm and note everything they tell you. If you can, seek a second opinion from another dealer as this will surely expedite the process as far as Honda corporate is concerned.


Cheers;

MSantos

hi MSantos,

I recently posted a question on the greenhybrid site (my apologies to those of you who read both), and I'm wondering if your comments address my problem.

During a recent servicing, the dealer service guys installed the 09-058 SW upgrade. Since the upgrade, the car's MPG has plummeted-- the car is now both assist-happy and regen-happy. My Scangauge shows LOD values are significantly higher for many driving conditions than they used to be, and I am seldom able to ‘fake shift’ into a higher gear at speeds between 27-40 and keep 40-60 mpg without draining the SOC. . I've lost at least 10 MPG on my daily commute.

At the same time, my acceleration on hills (or freeway on ramps) is terrible- It feels like I'm trying to climb out of molasses! I've ended up having to punch the acceleration to avoid getting creamed by traffic, at which point I'm at 3000+RPMs and draining my SOC down to 2-3 bars (I almost never went below 4 before). And of course this sends my MPG into single digits. This sounds similar to the problem that smallcardrvr described.

I'd really like to have the software upgrade uninstalled, but it sounds like that's not an option. (I've read that others are also experiencing similar problems). Is there any merit in trying to get Honda to re-install the PCM, as you describe in your previous post/

thanks--

Philip

Hi Phillip;

In your case I will suggest you give it another try after you perform a power reset procedure (PRP). It is important that we follow the steps thoroughly and not deviate in order to ensure a proper level of success. Remember, the PCM has an adaptive behavior that is worth clearing and re-initializing on a regular basis. Personally, I perform a power reset at least twice a year and my local dealers now do the same thing when diagnosing/troubleshooting these issues. Interesting, is it not?

Still, if this (PRP) does not work I would suggest getting the ball rolling with Corporate Honda and even leverage any opportunities for escalation especially if you have a good amount of "good will" capital from your dealer. Writting those letters really gets the ball rolling and even makes matters easier for follow-up cases such as yours.

The PRP is found towards the end of this document (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18185).


Cheers;

MSantos

thanks, MSantos, is the PRP something I should have the dealer do (under the circumstances)? Or should I go ahead and do it myself? I've never tried entering my audio codes, but I think I remember reading about the procedure in the owner's manual.

And thanks for the reminder to check the great FAQ that you put together-- I read it awhile ago but needed the refresher.

Philip

Hi Phillip;

I suggest you do the PRP yourself, as it is very important that you notice the effect on the car; and also because the dealers tend to restore the SoC by revving the engine to 3500+ RPM while stationary in the shop. :(
The key to doing this right is that you are allowing the car to effectively learn as you drive. Drive the car gently for a short while after the reset and that is what it will learn to do for you on a regular basis... thus giving you the smoother performance and greater FE.

Cheers;

MSantos

ok thanks, I'll give it a go.

Philip

Hi Phillip;

I suggest you do the PRP yourself, as it is very important that you notice the effect on the car; and also because the dealers tend to restore the SoC by revving the engine to 3500+ RPM while stationary in the shop. :(
The key to doing this right is that you are allowing the car to effectively learn as you drive. Drive the car gently for a short while after the reset and that is what it will learn to do for you on a regular basis... thus giving you the smoother performance and greater FE.

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi MSantos,
Do you think I should do this procedure to?

Hi linx3566;

Give it a shot. It will not hurt... and in fact... depending on the circumstances, it may even help a tiny bit if not a whole lot.

As I said, I do it regularly- twice a year (as I make the seasonal change of the wheels).

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi MSantos
How do you do this PRP thing to your HCH, MSantos? I did a search without success.
Cheers,
Hal

Hi MSantos
How do you do this PRP thing to your HCH, MSantos? I did a search without success.
Cheers,
Hal

Check the end of Manuel's post:


The PRP is found towards the end of this document (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18185).

Hi linx3566;

Give it a shot. It will not hurt... and in fact... depending on the circumstances, it may even help a tiny bit if not a whole lot.

As I said, I do it regularly- twice a year (as I make the seasonal change of the wheels).

Cheers;

MSantos

Thanks, I will

Cheers

Thanks R.L.C.:D Hal

Hi Phillip;

I suggest you do the PRP yourself, as it is very important that you notice the effect on the car; and also because the dealers tend to restore the SoC by revving the engine to 3500+ RPM while stationary in the shop. :(
The key to doing this right is that you are allowing the car to effectively learn as you drive. Drive the car gently for a short while after the reset and that is what it will learn to do for you on a regular basis... thus giving you the smoother performance and greater FE.

Cheers;

MSantos

hi again, I ended up doing the PRP twice-- once before taking it back to the dealer to let them try a diagnosis, and then again after I got my car home again (to clear any dealer tweaks!). I think the PRP procedure DID help somewhat, at least for driving conditions that don't require accelerations under much load. But I'm still really frustrated with my '08s performance on hills- definitely worse than before the 09-058 upgrade, and EXTREMELY worse when I have to start on an uphill or accelerate to freeway speeds on short on-ramps. I'm hitting 90%+ LOD values on my scangauge with ridiculously low power from the engine. As far as I can tell, all the dealer did was check out the software's performance with the car sitting in the shop, rather than checking out my comnplaint with a test drive. Kinda like playing a video game, you know?

I'm willing to try writing letters, although that feels a bit like trying to steer a supertanker; I'm not going to expect a reponse, anytime soon. Are there any other 'reset' procedures that I can request from the Dealer? Aside from my rather non-technical explanations, I'm not sure what to ask for.

thanks again for your input--

Philip

Hi Phillip;

Yes, many dealers are totally insensitive to the unique attributes of these cars let alone what is normal behavior and what is not. Too bad we cannot easily tell the ones that have hybrid tech training from those that do not. :(

Anyway, we have one more avenue left: The idle learn/calibration procedure. This is something that the dealer must do to do it right. A PRP will only re-initialize the more volatile/adaptive part but will never be as throughout and as longer lasting as an idle learn.

The only other option is for them to replace the PCM. Replacing this module is more common than it appears and compared to all the back and forth it is often less expensive than the alternative.
Doing so will also rollback the software update with a potential for better results. In other words, replacement of the PCM in case like this is something they should consider as that is what Honda states in their tech training for the more stubborn cases like this.

Cheers

MSantos

well, thanks, I'll give it a try-- I'm guessing the challenge will be to find a mechanic who knows what I'm talking about. Hopefully they will at least know about the idel learn/calibration procedure.

Philip

If you have any issues just let me know. I can send you the detailed steps the techs must go through just in case they don't know what we're talking about. Heck, I'll even send you the volume and module reference where they are supposed to find it.

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi Everyone,

I know I'm getting back to you all kind of late, but not much has happened. Over the holidays my HCHII sat at the dealer for 2 weeks (they were short-staffed). Fortunately, they gave me a loaner. By the time they got in touch w/Honda technical support on 1/8/10 they told my dealer to hook the car up to the HDS (diagnostic scan tool) to monitor the fuel trim. They said it should read between 94 & 105. They rode it around town and on the freeway and it was w/in specs. Honda is telling them that everything’s operating OK with my car. I disagreed. At that point, I picked up my car from them so I could drive it myself and try to figure out when the problems would occur.

After driving the car for 10 days, I have found that neither the assist nor the charge are working correctly. It’s very hard to pinpoint the exact parameters, but what is sometimes happening is that I will get no assist between 2500 and 4000 rpms. If I go over 4000 rpms, the assist will kick on. Or, if I back off the gas in the 2500-4000 rpm range, then push the pedal harder again, it will kick on. When I’m at a stop and pulling out into traffic, I can’t just ease on the gas, I have to really push it to get the car moving. As far as the charge, it's not always charging when it should (when I shift into "S" it will sometimes "slip out" of the charge when it clearly needs to be charged).

I'm in contact with Honda Customer Service, I have a case number with them, I'll be calling them tomorrow and I already have a letter drafted to Honda corporate. I'm thinking it will be going in the mail tomorrow!

I will let you all know what happens, as it appears that I'm not the only one with these issues.

Happy 2010!

OK, so I just got a call from Northwest Honda. All they were able to do was call Honda Technical Support in CA. This is what they were told: "This software update is to prevent premature battery wearing out on the IMA battery system. It is designed not to give assist every time you ask for it because it can make the battery temperature too high and cause the battery to prematurely wear out."

So, here's the problem I have with that - my battery is wearing out faster than it was before! This is making no sense. My car is not performing properly. I can't get Honda to do anything about it. I have a contact @ Honda Customer Support who never calls me back. Any advice? I've already told the Service Manager @ NW Honda that I'm writing a letter to Honda Corporate and expect to have to litigate. His general manager suggested that I come in and purchase a brand new Civic Hybrid, to which I replied "I will never buy another Honda again - hybrid or not. I have no faith in Honda's technical support."

Help!

smallcardrvr

Hi smallcardrvr;

Sorry to hear about the unremarkable response they had for you. I can tell that from the answer they provided, that not much effort was put into it even though they could have provided more detail and specificity.

Technically, the software update should not govern the assist and regen to the levels you mentioned - not even close... as that is not what it was designed to do. Yes, it was designed to be more aggressive with the detection of the lower SoC limits, but it was not designed to limit the assist under normal charge levels at all.

When they updated the software, did they update other subsystems as well?

I ask this because you should have received a series of updates and not just "the one". I am willing to bet that there's a loss of synergy between the subsystems due to a mis-match in the software. Honda already addressed this issue with a reference and a database update but it is very important that dealers not only apply all the other updates but also reset the PCM just to be sure they don't give back the car in a less than optimal state.

Also, did you try a power reset yet? Not that it will provide the solution I think you need, but you never know until you try it. You have nothing to lose so give it a shot.

And if the issue still persists after the power reset, take your car to another dealer... and even if they are not much help at least you'll add to the paper trail.

Cheers;

MSantos

My thoughts: your Integrated Motor Assist battery is on the verge of failure, and Honda has chosen to perform an irreversible reprogramming on the Power Control Module, for the purpose of greatly reducing the amount and duration of assist, in the hope that the battery will limp through the remainder of the warranty period, albeit in a vehicle with reduced performance and increased fuel consumption.

Hi msantos,

Thank you for your response. The updates that were performed on my car were: (1) for fuel, (2) IMA Battery, (3) IMA Generator, (4) CVT Transmission. I am not techy, so I can't give you the specific details - I'm just taking that off the printout they gave me when I picked up the car.

My question to you: How do you know that "the software update should not govern the assist and regen to the levels (I) mentioned"? I need to cite the source in order to use that argument because the people at the dealership have told me that they don't believe everything the read on the internet. The service manager, who was in the shop for 20 years, didn't even understand how the integrated motor assist works until my husband took him for a ride in the car and explained it to him. His reaction was that they don't get to drive the cars because they can't keep them on the lot. That's fine, but if you're fixing the cars, you should know how they function.

Also, to Mendel Leisk: Thank you for your input. I wholeheartedly agree.

I am in the process of contacting a lemon law lawyer, and I have 3 cites that I intend to post a complaint with (WA Attorney General, Better Business Bureau and NHTSA) if I do not get a satisfactory resolution.

Thanks to all,

smallcardrvr

...
My question to you: How do you know that "the software update should not govern the assist and regen to the levels (I) mentioned"? I need to cite the source in order to use that argument because the people at the dealership have told me that they don't believe everything the read on the internet. The service manager, who was in the shop for 20 years, didn't even understand how the integrated motor assist works until my husband took him for a ride in the car and explained it to him. His reaction was that they don't get to drive the cars because they can't keep them on the lot. That's fine, but if you're fixing the cars, you should know how they function...


Hi smallcardrvr;

While I cannot tell you exactly about some of things I do (and did in this area), I hope it will suffice for me to state that in Canada I have access to just about all the technical information dealers and field technicians have. Sadly, many dealers have much less access than what is minimally required. :(

Also, I have little to no leverage with the customer service front lines within Honda US operation, but in Canada I have my channel "contacts" and I leverage those resources to often provide additional information to the community that the dealer network is either unable or unwilling to provide.

That is why I do not believe your case is that hopeless because what you are experiencing is neither new nor unheard of... and the likely solution often depends on the dealer, their knowledge, and willingness to pursue the problem as recommended by the very support materials/resources they subscribe and have access to.

With that said, I would always take what a dealer says with a bit of skepticism and on this basis I would seek a second opinion from an alternate dealer just to be sure. You'll notice that more often than not, their answers vary quite a bit and so will their abilities. Please play this card in your favor if you can.

Cheers;

MSantos

No my wife wasn't killed in a horrible accident trying to get on the freeway without any assist from the electric motor.

I dislike when people don't update or close out threads so I'm taking over for her. She has lived with the same issues involving this car for almost a year now. Sometimes we get full assist other times nothing. The mileage is still off about 20%.

Yesterday the IMA, battery and service indicator idiot lights came on. She took it to the dealer and they scanned the codes. It came back with "found code for BCM lost communication with DC converter." The tech who worked on it called the tech line and they told him to check the connection at DC to DC converter. Tech checked connections at DC converter Good. Tech cleared codes & light stayed off.

Recall #10-034 was due, hybrid reflash was performed.

The car has only been driven about 30 miles since we got it back, but has performed as it did prior to the last reflash. That is full assist when accelerated and full recharging on down hills and when braking.

I will up date this in a few days, but hopefully the car will perform as it did before they "fixed" it last year

Chris

No my wife wasn't killed in a horrible accident trying to get on the freeway without any assist from the electric motor.

I dislike when people don't update or close out threads so I'm taking over for her. She has lived with the same issues involving this car for almost a year now. Sometimes we get full assist other times nothing. The mileage is still off about 20%.

Yesterday the IMA, battery and service indicator idiot lights came on. She took it to the dealer and they scanned the codes. It came back with "found code for BCM lost communication with DC converter." The tech who worked on it called the tech line and they told him to check the connection at DC to DC converter. Tech checked connections at DC converter Good. Tech cleared codes & light stayed off.

Recall #10-034 was due, hybrid reflash was performed.

The car has only been driven about 30 miles since we got it back, but has performed as it did prior to the last reflash. That is full assist when accelerated and full recharging on down hills and when braking.

I will up date this in a few days, but hopefully the car will perform as it did before they "fixed" it last year

Chris

Chris - my experience has been that the new update did indeed fix the 'complete loss of assist' that was happening with some of the previous updates. My take is that they do this by not letting the charge drop below 2 bars.

However - at times I've felt some loss of assist but its much less noticeable now.

Chris - my experience has been that the new update did indeed fix the 'complete loss of assist' that was happening with some of the previous updates. My take is that they do this by not letting the charge drop below 2 bars.

However - at times I've felt some loss of assist but its much less noticeable now.

I drove her car today. It was much improved. I was able to get 50mpg for the short trip into town and back. How long has it been since you had the latest update performed? How long did you suffer with the loss of assist?

Chris

I drove her car today. It was much improved. I was able to get 50mpg for the short trip into town and back. How long has it been since you had the latest update performed? How long did you suffer with the loss of assist?

Chris


The 'loss of assist' issue started when I did my first software update in fall of 2008.

After this 2010 update, the problem went away. Its been 5 months now