Archives

Hello all
Yesterday I went to a local Honda dealer to make the 3 year maintenance or 60000Km.
When I came home I looked that they put Castrol Magn 10W40 oil on my HCH...I know the recomended oil is 0W20...
I looked on the manual and the 10W40 is inclued on the listed oil's that HCH can have.
Im a bit worried :(

Regards

Hi LionGreen.

I would be VERY worried as well... In fact, I would be steaming mad and half way through a complaint letter addressed to your regional or national Honda office.

I suggest you have them undo this mistake ASAP. Did they inform you at least of the alternate oil?

Cheers;

MSantos

Don't use the oil!!! Take it back and call Honda headquarters to show your displeasure. Hal

Hello all
Yesterday I went to a local Honda dealer to make the 3 year maintenance or 60000Km.
When I came home I looked that they put Castrol Magn 10W40 oil on my HCHRegards

How do you know what oil was put in, ie: did they specify this oil on the bill? Also, your mention of "3 year maintenance or 60000km" sounds like they have created their own schedule: with the '06 the in-dash Maintenance Minder is what you're supposed to follow.


If you communicate with Honda on this, be sure to include a copy of the bill if it specifies either of these unorthodox items.

omg...

It was the first time that I visit a local dealer to make maintenance of my cars...and now this...

Now....can I use the car on these conditions? Only monday I can go to there to fix up these mess...
But unfortunately I need the car to go to work tomorrow and after :confused:

I want to believe that's is only a typo on the bill...but I don´t know

You should be fine. You've driven it already, it's run fine I'm sure. Two issues:

1. Your mileage will surely suffer, this is at least two grades too heavy an oil.

2. There may be closer tolerances on the hybrid engine, and it may need the thinner oil to properly infiltrate the tighter gaps.

My guess is this the second issue is very iffy, and it would only be long term use of heavy oil that would make an impact, but I'll defer to MSanto, who actually knows what he's talking about ;)

Bottom line, I would keep your driving to minimum, and get on the phone to the dealership ASAP. Maybe just a typo??

If you are happy with price - the ok

I'd be unhappy regardless - and asking for someone to lose their job....

Thank you for your replying

Tomorrow I'll go and asking why they put that oil
They didn't tell me nothing about use an alternative oil

:(



Can I demand that they change the oil and put back the right one?

I'm sorry but this is the first time that I have trouble with a service that doesn't go fine

I'm sorry my bad english


Kind regards

Hi LionGreen;

I would certainly would ask them the "good questions" and I would also ask them to remove that oil and put the right one in. Please note that the Honda 0W20 oil is normally more expensive than the oil they allegedly used and if they charged you for the 10W40 in the first place, then you may have to pay the difference for the 0W20. In such a case I would demand they pay for the labor.

Also note that smaller dealers are not likely to stock the 0W20 oil and may even have to order it in. More often than not, that is mainly a reason why HCH owners end-up with heavier oils (5W20) put in - which is in my opinion.... already a poor compromise that is not to be repeated.

To recap, the HCH-II has an engine that is among the most lowest friction, mass produced power plants in the world. Proper lubrication, heat management and continued low tolerances are key attributes that can only be guaranteed by the lowest viscosity oil recommended by Honda. So, yes. Have them change it ASAP.

No worries, your English is FAR better than my Portuguese. Trust me on this one. ;)

Cheers and have a "Feliz Natal"


MSantos

Hi msantos

Hope can fix up these situation

And thank you all for your quick reply

I'll keep you update


Kind Regards and Merry Christmas and for msantos Feliz Natal :D

Well, I'm back

Yesterday after work I went to the local dealer for explaining these situation.
I spoke with their manager, that they put that oil on HCH and that was not the right choice and the behave of the HCH is being different since the maintenance. Much slower, burning more gas (my tank's average was showing 4.7l/100Km - 50MPG) and having some difficult to maintain the iFCD on the lower side (my iFCD shows 0 to 12l/100Km)
He went to talk with the mechanical and he confirmed that they mess up on the oil change.
He decided in change the oil right away for the right one.
40 minutes later I left the local dealer with the right oil these time and no cost.
Now maybe the HCH needs some time to the oil reach every component of the ICE for get more efficient again, but I fell the difference for better right now on his behave.

Thank you for your quick replaying again ;)

Kind Regards
And Merry Christmas for all

Merry Christmas and here's hoping your issues are now resolved!

At least they corrected a workers mistakes. Bet they watch what their doing in the future. MC, Hal

Will the wrong type of oil have such a drastic effect on MPG...

Hi Linx3566:

You bet it does... and in a VERY big way. More often than not this is the source of the greatest deficit in terms of FE often accounting for 10-15 MPG loss (depending on the driver and commute regimens).

Other big sources of MPG loss overlooked by some owners:
- Short trips on a cold engine
- Driver doing some or all of the wrong things while driving
- Poor tire pressures and/or non-LRR tires
- Bad wheel alignment
- Poor quality, reformulated or ethanol laced fuel.
- Overfilled engine oil (A big "Thank You" for Mendel regarding this very important no-no)


Cheers;

MSantos

Glad you were able to get your oil change taken care of without issue. Cheers and Merry Christmas!

To add to the list: overfilled engine oil should be bad for mpg too, with the crankshaft splashing deeper into it with every revolution. It's also bad for the engine in general, if grossly overfilled, causing foaming, getting oil into places it shouldn't be, etc.

To the Orig. Poster, now you have the correct oil grade, but I would check your oil level as well, it should not be above the top mark on the dipstick, slightly low is better.

Hi Linx3566:

You bet it does... and in a VERY big way. More often than not this is the source of the greatest deficit in terms of FE often accounting for 10-15 MPG loss (depending on the driver and commute regimens).

Other big sources of MPG loss overlooked by some owners:
- Short trips on a cold engine
- Driver doing some or all of the wrong things while driving
- Poor tire pressures and/or non-LRR tires
- Bad wheel alignment
- Poor quality, reformulated or ethanol laced fuel.


Cheers;

MSantos

ok but will it damage the engine if left to the next oil change?

Hi Linx3566;

No. It will not harm the engine. I also say this because Honda did not outlaw the use of 5W20 in exceptional scenarios. In fact, they stand behind its "incidental and rare" use.

But in reality however, you will never see anything other than 0W20 oil in my HCH-II engines. Ever. That is the golden rule and when it comes to my cars and the optimal maintenance pattern prescribed by Honda (which benefits me directly) I remain the boss and 0W20 becomes the only game in town. Dealerships are simply NOT allowed to contradict the boss's wishes. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi Linx3566;

No. It will not harm the engine. I also say this because Honda did not outlaw the use of 5W20 in exceptional scenarios. In fact, they stand behind its "incidental and rare" use.

But in reality however, you will never see anything other than 0W20 oil in my HCH-II engines. Ever. That is the golden rule and when it comes to my cars and the optimal maintenance pattern prescribed by Honda (which benefits me directly) I remain the boss and 0W20 becomes the only game in town. Dealerships are simply NOT allowed to contradict the boss's wishes. ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

Hi MSantos,
I agree with you whole heartedly but there is no guarantee that the dealer put 0W20 oil in. I just purchased my 06HCH a week ago and of course they did a certification on the vehicle. Oil most likely changed. When I purchased the vehicle this dealer threw in free oil changes for life as long a I own the vehicle. I wonder if they knew that the oil for this car is more expensive than regular oil. But this is done for all cars purchased at this dealership. I thought it was a good deal but now beginning to think they may put in regular oil. I question them on this because the fuel mileage is horrible for a hybrid. I get 63-6.5 L/100km in city or highway. I drive the speed limit always. Winter now so no AC use at all. They said that the put in the correct oil so i cannot argue. I don't believe it is my driving because in steady state cruise at 100KPH i should see an improvement in the mileage but not so. This is my predicament with the one week ownership of a hybrid. In hindsight I should have got a conventional Civic...no IMA battery worries and get good mileage on the highway.

The only "easy" way to make sure the dealer uses 0W20 and nothing else is to "demand" that they place the remaining oil in the trunk. This is because the Honda 0W20 oil comes in bottles and a proper fill-up will use 3 1/4 bottles. Do this and you'll make sure that they not only put the right oil in but also the right amount. ;)

Frankly, I would be suspicious of the free oil offer. In all likelihood you'll be the loser in the arrangement unless they put the leftover bottle in trunk.

6.3-6-5 L/100km is hardly horrible if that is an overall average for winter time fuel economy and driven in a mostly urban environment. Yes, it can be better but not by much. This is something many people fail to acknowledge and that is that almost every car will produce significantly poorer fuel economy when the temps are lower. There's no magic here, just basic physics.
Just to give you an example:

In the summer months, I get 3.6-3.9 L/100km average driving mostly urban/suburban environment with no more than 14km worth of commuting distance each way on a daily basis. If I drove over longer distances I would also get better FE. Some days I am able to arrive to work with a 3.0-3.2 L/100km reading, but others will be a little above 4.0. On average I get 3.6-3.9 L/100km.

Now for the other side of reality:

In the Winter months I will be happy if I can get 5.5 L/100km average from Nov to March. It is more typical for me to get close to 6.0 L/100km than less. That is reality and the way it works for everyone.
Now there are also days in the winter (bad days) when I get 7-9+ L/100km at the end of my commute. This too is reality and that is the way it works. Please, do not be depressed and also look at it objectively. Also remember that lower displacement engines are impacted far more than the bigger engines. In the end it is all a game of averages and the yearly average is what counts.

Please see the recorded FE for my HCH-II's to give you an idea of what I am talking about. You have a good car in your hands.

Finally, driving at 100km/h is not the only determinant of what FE you get. The primary determinant is the "how" rather than the "what". For instance, if I "just drive" the car, I will likely get 4.2-4.7 L/100km especially if the car is properly setup (tire pressures, alignment, Oil, fuel, weight, etc).

But... If I drive it the smart way, I will get 2.8-3.4L/100km. Who says we cannot have the cake and it it too? In the end it all boils down to the "how" we are able to leverage this technology. As many can attest, It takes some learning and time and it can be a boat load of fun in the process not to mention "profitable". ;)


My 2006 HCH mileage... (http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=L/100Km&viewcar=161)

BTW, a gasoline Civic will consume far more than your HCH. This is something many fail to acknowledge especially in the winter months. And sadly, when people quote its FE they conveniently refer to its NRCAN ratings and not its effective FE which is much poorer under similar conditions. Too bad the regular civic does not come with the same FE gauge as the HCH-II. :(

Cheers;

MSantos

The only "easy" way to make sure the dealer uses 0W20 and nothing else is to "demand" that they place the remaining oil in the trunk. This is because the Honda 0W20 oil comes in bottles and a proper fill-up will use 3 1/4 bottles. Do this and you'll make sure that they not only put the right oil in but also the right amount. ;)

Frankly, I would be suspicious of the free oil offer. In all likelihood you'll be the loser in the arrangement unless they put the leftover bottle in trunk.

6.3-6-5 L/100km is hardly horrible if that is an overall average for winter time fuel economy and driven in a mostly urban environment. Yes, it can be better but not by much. This is something many people fail to acknowledge and that is that almost every car will produce significantly poorer fuel economy when the temps are lower. There's no magic here, just basic physics.
Just to give you an example:

In the summer months, I get 3.6-3.9 L/100km average driving mostly urban/suburban environment with no more than 14km worth of commuting distance each way on a daily basis. If I drove over longer distances I would also get better FE. Some days I am able to arrive to work with a 3.0-3.2 L/100km reading, but others will be a little above 4.0. On average I get 3.6-3.9 L/100km.

Now for the other side of reality:

In the Winter months I will be happy if I can get 5.5 L/100km average from Nov to March. It is more typical for me to get close to 6.0 L/100km than less. That is reality and the way it works for everyone.
Now there are also days in the winter (bad days) when I get 7-9+ L/100km at the end of my commute. This too is reality and that is the way it works. Please, do not be depressed and also look at it objectively. Also remember that lower displacement engines are impacted far more than the bigger engines. In the end it is all a game of averages and the yearly average is what counts.

Please see the recorded FE for my HCH-II's to give you an idea of what I am talking about. You have a good car in your hands.

Finally, driving at 100km/h is not the only determinant of what FE you get. The primary determinant is the "how" rather than the "what". For instance, if I "just drive" the car, I will likely get 4.2-4.7 L/100km especially if the car is properly setup (tire pressures, alignment, Oil, fuel, weight, etc).

But... If I drive it the smart way, I will get 2.8-3.4L/100km. Who says we cannot have the cake and it it too? In the end it all boils down to the "how" we are able to leverage this technology. As many can attest, It takes some learning and time and it can be a boat load of fun in the process not to mention "profitable". ;)


My 2006 HCH mileage... (http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=L/100Km&viewcar=161)

BTW, a gasoline Civic will consume far more than your HCH. This is something many fail to acknowledge especially in the winter months. And sadly, when people quote its FE they conveniently refer to its NRCAN ratings and not its effective FE which is much poorer under similar conditions. Too bad the regular civic does not come with the same FE gauge as the HCH-II. :(

Cheers;

MSantos

Thank you for the detailed explanation...reading these post I know that you are the guru of this technology. I feel better with my 6.5L/100km now. The reason I was depressed is I see everyone saying they get 4.0 - 5.5 L/100km but never said summer or winter. I will wait till summer and see what is my mileage. Like I said i am not an aggressive driver and stay the speed limit, I know that slow acceleration and conservative driving is the key to better FE. As far as the oil thing with the dealer I will have to be more diligent when I go for an oil change and ensure the correct oil is put in. I spoke to the service manager and he assured me that they always put the oil that is marked on the oil cap. I can only take his word for it but I will still be diligent on this matter. thanks again for your input, much appreciated as it has settled my mind a bit and going forward maybe now I can enjoy my HCH. For the past week of ownership I was very unsettled and felt something was wrong with my car and maybe I made a grave error in its purchase. Cheers and season greetings.

Hi Linx3566;

Indeed. Do give the car a chance. It won't let you down and will even surprise you if you are willing and open to learning a bit.

Please read Tarabell's article multiple times and adopt some of the tips she offers. It would be a lie for any of us to claim we know all there is about these cars... as they still continue to surprise many even after years of driving it.

Still, try to work on some basic HCH-II techniques, like gliding and foot feathering and remember that the accelerator is a critical part of the drive-by-wire system and is therefore VERY sensitive. Under the right circumstances, use this sensitivity to kick the car into its special modes and it will reward you with endless fun and fuel savings to boot. And yes, you can have this fun while at 100km/h too :)


Cheers;

MSantos

It's true.
The Winter hurts fuel economy,no matter I drive.
My tank's average is 4.6l/100Km on the BC so far is the worse tank so far I did on my HCH.
I catch a lot of heavy rain on these days and some strong wind :(
(Un)Fortunately there is no snow here were I live and the temperatures are around 8 to 14ºC in the day (at night sometimes hits below 0ºC) but not now, because of the rain.
I miss the summer :D
What about your winter? I believe that is more colder...maybe some snow.

Hi LionGreen;

At the moment we're enjoying a balmy -23C (-10F). With the windchill factored in the temps may actually feel like -32C. Not too bad. :rolleyes:

Yep, we got snow on the ground.

Cheers;

MSantos

I don't think there's any way, short of watching over the mechanic's shoulder as he cracks the seal on 0W20 bottles and pours them in, to be absolutely sure what they're putting in. I think you have to take them at their word, assume that they're professionals, and are not going to compromise their franchise status over a few bottles of oil (though sometimes I've wondered...). Personally, I opted to take them out of the equation for oil changes, just head straight to the Parts Counter, pick up the oil and put it in myself.

Weatherwise: in Vancouver, British Columbia (on west coast of Canada) it's sitting at plus 3 degress Centigrade right now, and overcast.

Regarding fuel economy: with reset odometer just before a highway/freeway run, we got home showing 4.6 liters/100km. A day or two later, with a fair number of short trips, and even lending the car to our daughter and family overnight, on my last short trip the mileage climbed to 6.6, but then I was able to settle it back down to around 6.3. In short, I was able to bring it to an equilbrium in that range. That's with Nokian WRG2 all-weather tires installed, on steel rims. They tend to depress our mileage a bit.

I think you're in the ballpark for short trips around town, and I'm sure it's a little cooler in T.O. right now.

In Toronto it is -9C with a windchill of -20C. I just took a drive on the highway and reset the B trip. When I got home I was reading 6.0L/100km. I guess I don't feel too bad now with my consumption considering the temperatures here in Toronto. Around the town driving I will climb to 6.5L/100Km and that is the worst I ever got with this car. Fairly consistent I would say. Cheers

Trust no dealer! When the crapstastic cvt HCHII of ours was in for warranty work I went a head and let them change the oil on it. $45 bucks for a oil change and $45 bucks more if I wanted M1 used. $90 bucks for a M1 oil change.

I'm done with Hondas and there dealers of rip off thugs. And the Yota dealers are even worse around here.

MSantos - I got average 6.0L/100km today and my second week of driving this HCH II. I think I am slowly getting the hang of driving this hybrid to maximize FE. Please note I have no block heater and no covering up of front grill. Just bone stock and temp here in Toronto is cold...-9C and wind chill -20C. I feel good about my accomplishment and should get a bit more when I install block heater and cover up front grill. Cheers

Just to get on my soap box a bit, I think any-and-all auto manufacturers should factory-install block heaters, in all their cars, regardless of destination. It's the time to do this, before the engine even goes in, and obviously prior to coolant install, not down the road at the dealership.

Block heaters will likely gain ground as a selling feature, given the current and increasing interest in fuel conservation.

If you get them installed at the dealership it's a waste of coolant (actually I believe they recycle it now, but it's still a totally unnecessary coolant swap), an extra expense, and you're at the mercy of the service department's "interpretation" of the install instructions.

Some manufacturers already do pre-install them, but I think it tends to be regional. I see our daughter and family's Vibe (Ontario purchase) had one. And of course they never used it (smacks head).

Yes a block heater is good to improve your mileage but how practical is it. Most people can only plugin at home in the garage but what about when they are at work parked all day. In Toronto I can safely say there is no infrastructure to plug in your can unlike Winnipeg. I know in Winnipeg there are plugin stations at hotel parking lots and other places. I guess none in Toronto because we don't get as cold although we do experience an average winter temp of -10C. This is cold enough to have a negative impact on FE. I don't have all the answers but owning a hybrid and saving gas is a good thing. Just my two cents. Cheers.

It does depend on your circumstances. Our car tends to get started at a predictable time each working weekday (the time varies, but is predictable), and then driven 3~4 times during the day, with 1~2 hour breaks. That's probably best scenario for a single blockheater session, early morning.

Obviously not as good is the more typical scenario, where you heat it up for early morning commute, park at work, and it sits there for maybe 9 hours before you start it up to head home. There you're still 50% better than no blockheater, and just maybe you can find an outlet at your destination.

For either situation a 7 day programable timer is very useful.

I thought I read somewhere that some Toronto parking lots had outlets, suitable for block heaters, that cycled on/off in 1/2 hour intervals, not sure though.

If there are any outlet in Toronto I have not seen any. Have we calculated all the extras in ownership of this vehicle to obtain FE such as block heater and oil that is more expensive. Not to mention the initial cost to buy it. I bought mine used but was more expensive if i got a regular Civic by at least 2000.00. I know that I am paying less for gas by at least 40% but I have not calculated the pay back as yet. Just wondering how long it would be. Cheers

Have we calculated all the extras in ownership of this vehicle to obtain FE such as block heater and oil that is more expensive.
The situation isn't that bad. How much is an EBH? Not more than $200 is it? And the electricity to run it doesn't cost much. Even using it just at home to warm the engine for the AM startup will probably net more than 50% of the possible improvement in FE because afternoon temps are generally higher than nighttime.

As for oil, the more expensive synthetics can be changed at longer intervals, which helps recoup a lot of their additional cost.

Dealer installed is ~$160, at least Canada, West Coast. You might double check that there isn't one already in there, especially being a back east car. The heater replaces the engine block coolant drain bolt, which is around back of the engine, maybe 6~8" laterally away from dipstick. If there's just a big bolt head there, you don't have the heater. The cord and plug should be the giveaway, but they can be installed and then tucked away in the bumper.

Besides improving fuel economy (by shortening the relatively wasteful warm-up stage), the BH is good for your engine's longevity, and get's the cabin warmed up quicker.

Hi All;

Since we're on the topic of EBH's:

In addition to the EBH benefits already stated by Mendel, there's one in particular that escapes most folks until it is too late. Do you know which am I talking about?

Yes, the emission control system... which in itself is a pretty pricey thing to deal with.

I am talking about the rather precious 3-way catalytic converter along with the accompanying minor hardware (O2 sensors ) and so on that may be needed.

You see, the EBH tends to dramatically relieve and accelerate the warm-up process. This is a MAJOR good thing since a prolonged warm-up process will cause a richer fuel mixture to slowly foul-up the downstream exhaust system thus measurably impacting its life.

That is yet another reason why so many of us use the EBH even during the summer months. In other words, if you got one then use it well ;)

Cheers;

MSantos

We've been shopping window shopping to help a relation choose a new vehicle, and I see Nissans (at least the SUV's I've looked at) all come with block heaters standard. With Honda you need to install these at or after purchase, with a superfluous coolant change and extra charges.

Here in MN at least the Ford Escape comes with one standard it seems.