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This week, ABC Nightline had a 1991 spot on the auto industry:

Honda had a 100mpg two-seat concept car
Honda introduced the 51mpg Civic VX with lean burn
Detroit was fighting stricter fuel economy standard. Some were proposing fleet average of 40mpg by 2000Not much has changed?

You can view it with Quicktime > http://www.panix.com/~dannyb/video/mileage-low-10-mpg4.mov

Cool, Honda has a 100mpg 2 seater?:eek:

I must be about finding one of those.:D

Randall:Banane36:

Cool, Honda has a 100mpg 2 seater?:eek:

I must be about finding one of those.:D

Randall:Banane36:

Hi Randall:

:D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

And you know, it's things like hearing about that story that just burns me up. I try to tell people that the technology has been around for a long time but some argue. I try to tell them that higher efficiency standards should have been implemented a long time ago, and they scoff.

15 years ago!
What have we learned? It's sad.

I enjoyed the video. Did you see the EV1 prototype on the video. That video is 15 years old and it seems like it is from last week (all the issues are still the same).

And you know, it's things like hearing about that story that just burns me up. I try to tell people that the technology has been around for a long time but some argue. I try to tell them that higher efficiency standards should have been implemented a long time ago, and they scoff.

15 years ago!
What have we learned? It's sad.

We have learned huge companys run the world. Not people or there goverments.

Even Hondas blown it.

Take the R-18 in my Civic. It could have very well been made as a lean burn engine. Wonder why they didnt? I'll tell you why. It would have gutted there hybrid efforts.

Honda could have also used the current Si engine to make a world engine. The R-18 is called the world engine right now.
Take the 2L DOHC. Put lean burn on it with a Atkins cycle. Put this in the DX, LX. Add upper end vtec for a EX. Then throw in the LSD, MT, trick spings and struts for the Si. This can all be done on lower octain fuels as Hondas already proven they can do 9.5:1 compression ratios in low octane fuel with the R-18. Then if you want a hybrid. Slot it in the LX class. Hang IMA on it and walk away.

IMO manufatures need to stop listening to there marketing depts. There inlies the EVIL. The engineers and dreamers can make wonderful machines. Its the marketing dept. that ruins them.

I don't want to get too hard on Honda. After all they have done a lot more than GM on FE.

Matt Timon of www.gassavers.org (http://www.gassavers.org) does have a good article supporting Psyshack's assertion Honda has slipped, however

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=14401

Chuck:

It is very clear that Yota, Honda and Nissian have done much more for FE than GM, Ford and Mopar. The Germans slot in IMO in the middle. Notice Mazda isnt in there.

Lets look at Ford. They IMO have basicly wiped out there engineering dept. They havent been able to think for themselves for 40+ years. They own a chunk of Mazda. Mazda hasnt built a good FE car ever! ( Well Festiva ) Mazda's claim to fame was the wankle they got from the German's. There's those German's again. When you open the hood on Wayne's and my Ranger. Your not seeing a Ford engine and tranny. Its a German engine and a Iszu tranny. If your lucky a Mazda tranny. Mine's the Iszu. :( Fact is Ranger is a cobbled together Mazda thats no where near being pure Mazda. Its a bin built truck.

Lets look at Tarus. The only good one ever built was the early SHO series. It had a engine design in it from Yamaha. Little old Yamaha,,, yep the piano and motorcycle folks :) The engine was far better than anything Ford could design. It had much better hp/tq. When driven right it would best the other engine offerings in FE.

So Ford trys to wake up. They build the Fusion and Sable. They clam to have busted there chops on this car. Aimed it right at Honda and Yota. And the base I4 in the car is still ten years behind current Yota and Honda offerings. They should have called Yamaha in for a engine.

Fact is the American Big Three have been making the bulk of there money off there then ground breaking 1950's tech. They havent invested into new tech.

A example: Mopar>Hemi,,, its back. Sure its a better hemi motor than the past. But its back. :)

Think about it and see what examples you can come up with. Hint: A Suv isnt a new thing at all. :) Nor how its built.

Hi Chuck:

___I finally had the chance to see the vid. QT is a restricted program at work :(

___Same story, different day. Maybe Ford and GM should go purchase a few third world automakers similar to they way they threw profits away in the past instead of building fuel efficient cars like the Asians to begin with?

___Psy, we have discussed the wheels coming off at Honda more then once and now that they have that super NOx CAT for their upcoming oil burners, all there SI-ICE equipped cars had better be lean burn SOB’s!

___I would love to purchase a regular 06 Civic LX w/ a stick and the HCH-II’s 1.3 as Honda sells in Europe but without the boat anchor short gearing in the non-hybrid vs. the hybrid’s super tall ratios. Or your 1.8 w/ the HCH-II’s fifth and final. Just another marketing gimmick getting in the way of real world progress where real world FE is concerned. And this is coming from Honda :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Speaking of Honda slipping, I did check www.fueleconomy.gov (http://www.fueleconomy.gov) and it list the hybrid Civic as 50mpg combined - Prius at 55mpg. While it's competitive, Toyota definitely comes out on top. Kind of shakes my faith in the IMA system.

I'd love to see a full-hybrid IMA system with the option of a 5-speed, but I can see the business/legal reasons it won't happen. There are just too many careless drivers that will lug a stick shift and do a deep discharge on the hybrid battery pack. :(

Speaking of Honda slipping, I did check www.fueleconomy.gov (http://www.fueleconomy.gov) and it list the hybrid Civic as 50mpg combined - Prius at 55mpg. While it's competitive, Toyota definitely comes out on top. Kind of shakes my faith in the IMA system.

I'd love to see a full-hybrid IMA system with the option of a 5-speed, but I can see the business/legal reasons it won't happen. There are just too many careless drivers that will lug a stick shift and do a deep discharge on the hybrid battery pack. :(

Better battery's Chuck,,, Better Battery's

I can't help but notice that once again people are comparing concept cars to production cars. Usually there's a non-conspiracy theory reason why we don't see concept cars on the road.

I notice the 51 MPG Civic never seemed to come out; heck that's what the hybrid version gets today.

Now, I'm not saying that it's really that much progress, just that we should really look at things in a proper perspective. It's pretty clear to see how little things have changed in some ways with the US automakers whining about FE and Japanese advantages, and how the foreign automakers look to the future while the US manufacturers are stuck looking at the past.

Though I did smile a bit at the "idea" of going from NY to Florida on a tank of gas. I know I can! ;)

Hi All:

___Let me reiterate this again.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/506/EPA_Highway_Test_Schedule_Histogram.gif
EPA Highway Test

Fuel Economy Test Schedule Characteristics
Driving Schedules Attributed|Highway
Trip Type|Free-flow traffic at highway speeds
Simulated Distance|10 miles
Time|12.5 minutes
Average Speed|48 mph
Top Speed|60 mph
Stops|None
Idling|None
Engine Temp at Startup|Warm
Lab Temperature|68 - 86 degrees F
Vehicle Air conditioning|Off

___The European 8th gen Civic is equipped with the EXACT 1.3L motor that is currently in the HCH-II but is geared to pull trailers or some such stupidity minus the $75.00 in aerodynamic addons, FCD’s, and wheels. Look at the above highway test. A regular Civic w/ the same gearing, the same 1.3, and 200 #’s less weight will do 50 mpg’s on the EPA test just as the hybrid does. This is a marketing gimmick by Honda to sell hybrids plain and simple. Not that there is anything wrong with a 0 - 60 in under 9 second non-hybrid sedan but when the HCH-I w/ a CVT performed this task in as long as 13, what is wrong with selling us a regular yet modern Civic that can do the same w/ a 50 mpg highway rating? And the fact a non-Hybrid Civic LX can be picked up for around $16K! The average consumer will purchase this non-hybrid sedan in far greater numbers thus lowering our overall fuel consumption and emissions that much more? Honda feels it is not cost effective to include the $150 up charge for Tier II/Bin2 SMOG emissions although they most certainly could? What is better for all of us? 30,000 HCH-II’s at 50 mpg combined or 275,000 + Civic’s at maybe 44 vs. the 275,000 Civic’s at 35 combined today?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's on YouTube now > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=246P1Rqimiw

Well, if I can install $200 worth of backyard-designed aero mods on my 92 Civic CX and give it the same mileage as an Honda Insight, you'd think Honda and the other car manufacturers with their fancy engineering departments and research budgets could do much better than they have shown themselves to be capable of so far.

___The European 8th gen Civic is equipped with the EXACT 1.3L motor that is currently in the HCH-II but is geared to pull trailers or some such stupidity minus the $75.00 in aerodynamic addons, FCD’s, and wheels. Look at the above highway test. A regular Civic w/ the same gearing, the same 1.3, and 200 #’s less weight will do 50 mpg’s on the EPA test just as the hybrid does. This is a marketing gimmick by Honda to sell hybrids plain and simple. Not that there is anything wrong with a 0 - 60 in under 9 second non-hybrid sedan but when the HCH-I w/ a CVT performed this task in as long as 13, what is wrong with selling us a regular yet modern Civic that can do the same w/ a 50 mpg highway rating? And the fact a non-Hybrid Civic LX can be picked up for around $16K! The average consumer will purchase this non-hybrid sedan in far greater numbers thus lowering our overall fuel consumption and emissions that much more? Honda feels it is not cost effective to include the $150 up charge for Tier II/Bin2 SMOG emissions although they most certainly could? What is better for all of us? 30,000 HCH-II’s at 50 mpg combined or 275,000 + Civic’s at maybe 44 vs. the 275,000 Civic’s at 35 combined today?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Do you seriously think a Civic with a 1.3L engine would sell in America in any appreciable numbers?

Hint: the answer isn't yes. :D

On the many car forums I peruse, I always have to remember that our opinion does not mesh with John and Jane Q. Public. In fact we are as far away from the mainstream as one can get.

Well, if I can install $200 worth of backyard-designed aero mods on my 92 Civic CX and give it the same mileage as an Honda Insight, you'd think Honda and the other car manufacturers with their fancy engineering departments and research budgets could do much better than they have shown themselves to be capable of so far.

Have you driven an insight on your commute? Don't compare EPA numbers to real world. It isn't the same thing. If you do well with your cx, you would probably do equaly well with the insight. compare %epa to get a better idea.

Hi Sledge:

___It appears like I may have been incorrect wrt the Euro Civic 1.4's gearing :(

___About choice … Most love to talk the HP game but when it comes down to purchase, we use our heads and wallets instead. Consider the US based Accord or Camry w/ the lowly I4. The Car mag’s almost always test the V6’s and sings its praises while flogging them for everything they are worth. Joe Q. and Mary J. purchase the I4 by a 4 +:1 margin vs. the V6’s. Civic Si vs. Civic? There is a $ differential in the case of the I4 vs. V6 and std. Civic vs. Si that would not be apparent with a Euro Civic vs. HCH-II.

___I pulled a number of pdf’s and specs from the Euro based compacts this afternoon … Consider the UK based Ford and Honda owners. All but the mighty Honda 2.2 iCDTi which skews all of course ;) The Fiesta’s, Focus’, and Ka’s w/ the petrol and diesel’s are lucky to see 60 in < 12 seconds.

Manufacturer|Model|ICE Size|Diesel/Petrol|Manual/Auto|0 - 100 kph (seconds)|FE - Urban/Extra Urban combined l/100 km

Ford|Ka|1.3|P|M|14.1|6.2
||||||
Ford|Fiesta|1.3|P|M|13.6|6.0
Ford|Fiesta|1.4|D|M|14.4|4.5
Ford|Fiesta|1.6|D|M|11.2|4.4
||||||
Ford|Fusion|1.4|P|M|14.0|6.5
Ford|Fusion|1.6|P|M|11.1|6.6
Ford|Fusion|1.6|P|A|13.1|7.6
Ford|Fusion|1.4|D|M|16.3|4.6
Ford|Fusion|1.6|D|M|13.1|4.5
||||||
Ford|Focus|1.6|D|M|11.0|4.8
Ford|Focus|1.6|D|A|11.6|5.6
Ford|Focus|1.8|D|M|10.9|5.3
Ford|Focus|2.0|D|M|9.4|5.7
||||||
Honda|Civic|1.4|P|M|14.6|5.9
Honda|Civic Hybrid|1.4|P|A|12.1|4.6
Honda|Civic|1.8|P|M|8.9|6.3
Honda|Civic|2.2|D|M|8.6|5.3

___I would love to see the actual sales numbers of the average UK auto purchaser’s choice from the list above. Then I would have some basis of performance “wants” vs. FE “needs”. If it were my choice, the Civic w/ the 2.2 iCDTi would be in the drive without question :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Have you driven an insight on your commute? Don't compare EPA numbers to real world. It isn't the same thing. If you do well with your cx, you would probably do equaly well with the insight. compare %epa to get a better idea.

I've never driven an Insight. I'm not comparing to EPA numbers. I'm comparing to the numbers posted in the mileage logs, where my average (69.7mpg) is in the lower range of Insight averages. I used to average 44mpg in the winter before I started hypermiling. Last winter with hypermiling, I kept it up around 50mpg in the winter. This winter with the aero mods,I'm averaging upper 60's mpg (mid 60's in the recent cold weather (5F to 35F). EPA highway for my car is 47mpg.

Hi Sledge:

___I was very interested in what you said the other day and have two threads at other sites I am keeping tabs on currently. Two performance minded members of both Temple of VTEC and DriveAccord.net are possibly seeing the light? It will be a battle for their hearts and minds but I am still working it as they learn that not everybody needs (let alone wants) to accel from 0 - 60 in < 8 seconds just to survive on today’s highways and byways. The reduced emissions and increased FE savings make it not only worth the price of entry but make it one of the better solutions in this day and age. Of course you already know this ;)

___Follow TonyE’s slow turn from thread to thread with the following timeline …
0-60 for the HCH? (http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=634737)

We got a Civic Hybrid! (http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=653113)

Driving Impressions, 06 HCH-II. (http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=657734)
___Follow Steve’s parents HCH-II purchase and eye opening discussion in the following thread.

On the Topic Of a Hybrid. (http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9474&page=1&pp=15)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

All TonyE got was 38 mpg? Amateur :D

Hi Sledge:

___Tony’s just a beginner so give him some time to come around. Fortunately it’s his wife’s daily driver and not his!

___The next time gasoline goes over $3.00 per in the LA area, I bet both he and his wife will be searching for a lot more then they are currently receiving as well :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

How much gain from diesel hybrid over gas hybrid?

Looking forward, we also have the pressurized nitrogen hybrid: much more efficient than the electric hybrid and no increase in cost over standard as it replaces the transmission. Also the Star rotor engine which will start as twice the efficiency of standard gas engine and eventually get to three times the efficiency.

If you figure that the Aptera (claimed 325mpg!) or VW narrow car will be over 200 mpg, and multiply by 2 for using Star rotor. Multiply by 1.5 for pressurized nitrogen and you can aproach 600 mpg!

Everything on the road now is seriously obsolete.

For early inspiration, check out the Dymaxion car of the 1930's, designed by Buckminster Fuller. Looks like an Aptera, but the size of a Dodge maxiwagon.

That was a good vid. That could have been made last year and no one would have known the difference. To bad cause it seems like they knew what to do even back then but yet we really arent much further ahead, but I think now Detroit is listening. Im looking forward to what the next 15 years will bring.

Do you seriously think a Civic with a 1.3L engine would sell in America in any appreciable numbers?

Hint: the answer isn't yes. :D

On the many car forums I peruse, I always have to remember that our opinion does not mesh with John and Jane Q. Public. In fact we are as far away from the mainstream as one can get.

Well, does the current Civic SI sell a lot better than the regular civic? I'd imagine if the 1.3L was the cheapest civic, it'd sell pretty good. They can't cannibalize their hybrid sales though.

On the many car forums I peruse, I always have to remember that our opinion does not mesh with John and Jane Q. Public. In fact we are as far away from the mainstream as one can get.

Sad but true. The car companies aren't in the business to build the best cars from our standpoint. They're in the business of making money, preferably by selling the same line of cars to as many people as possible. Which doesn't mean the "best"...


... Also the Star rotor engine which will start as twice the efficiency of standard gas engine and eventually get to three times the efficiency.

Sounds like you've been paying too much attention to certain manufacturers' websites.

-soD

I bought a Civic LX last summer. I wish there had been an HX version with maybe a 1.6L "R16" and taller gearing in the MT. :( :(. But I still love my Civic.

BTW, Honda killed lean burn because of emissions reasons. CARB happily drove a stake through the heart of lean burn several years ago :-(

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_nosubxsub_r.html

What happened with this?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/new_nosubxsub_r.html

What happened with this?

I'm not sure about the exact details, but the rumor I heard was that the Japanese companies were having extreme problems producing NSR catalysts that would last for the full emissions warranty period. The basic problem was a classic one - they could choose two of the following: Cheap, High NOx reduction, Good long term reliability.

People that suggest that they would sacrifice performance of their prime car to avoid cannibalizing sales of their hybrids are listening to conspiracy theorists too much. I KNOW for a fact that the vast, VAST majority of engineers would be very happy to produce performance that was competitive with hybrids without resorting to the additional cost and complexity of the hybrid power train.

The real problem goes back to basic physics - the efficiency of an engine that works within the context of the Carnot cycle is controlled by the difference between the combustion temperature and the final exhaust temperature. If all other factors are equal, a higher combustion chamber temperature will result in higher NOx emissions.

The bottom line? CARB effectively drove a stake through the heart of engine efficiency when they reduced allowable NOx.