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A very good friend of mine, who worries way too much about me and my 2004 Prius, urged me to send my latest used oil to the lab for analysis.



This was my second oil change in 50,000 miles. Each interval was 25,000 miles. My car has 180,000 miles on it currently. The Oil is Mobil 1 0W-20.



Here is a picture of the new oil next to the old oil that was analyzed.

http://priuschat.com/forums/members/krousdb-albums-180k-preventative-maintenance-picture2549-mobil-1-0w-20-in-155k-out-180k-ive-seen-worse-new-oil-left-dirty-oil-right.jpg

Here is the report from Blackstone labs. I guess I can push it to 27,000 miles next time.:D
http://priuschat.com/forums/members/krousdb-albums-180k-preventative-maintenance-picture2590-180k-miles-25k-oil.jpg

Wow. :eek:

Hi Dan:

___Thanks for posting this. I run 15 to 18K but might go a bit longer on the next one in the Accord. May as well to save the last few quarts of the 75 + quarts of 0W-20 you found for us about 4-years ago...

___Good Luck

___Wayne

No problem Wayne! Hopefully we can change a few minds?:Banane35:

I'm floored. My samples always come back from blackstone with WAY more than a trace of fuel in the oil. Dilution in this engine on M1 5W30 has been severe enough that I won't run more than 8500mi on it. Makes me wonder if I have rings that never seated properly.

WOW. Very impressive!

Super, Dan.The silicon is also notably low after 25k miles of engine 'breathing" - Not that you should scrimp on air filters.

I am shocked, shocked that blackstone suggested 27k. TBN and insol say this oil is over. I'd stay right where you are next time.

Brick, the fuel dilution (in Prius at least) is tricky. If you 'warm the oil' by idling in the driveway, you get a lot. Dan got a zero, impressive in final hours of an old PCV valve. Next time you sample oil, Brick, do a nice highway run and shut it down in your oil change spot with the minimum endgame idling. Then open the oil cap and let it exhale while you are waiting for the oil to cool enough to avoid skin pain. If my guess is right your fuel dilution will go way down.

DAS

SNext time you sample oil, Brick, do a nice highway run and shut it down in your oil change spot with the minimum endgame idling. Then open the oil cap and let it exhale while you are waiting for the oil to cool enough to avoid skin pain. If my guess is right your fuel dilution will go way down.

DAS

Thanks for the tip! I already make it a point to change after my home-bound 23 mile highway commute, but I have not tried letting the oil "breathe" by opening the oil cap. Still, what I care about is what the oil looks like while it's in use and this tells me that my 1-2% dilution is the real deal.

Brick, totally agree that the in situ lubricity is what matters. If you'd be willing to get the used oil analysis, we could really know what's going on in there.

DAS

Are you changing the filter in between? What's your commute?

Are you changing the filter in between? What's your commute?

No, the Fram filter was not changed in between. I drive 140 miles/weekday. 100 miles on the interstate, 40 miles of suburban roads.

Hi Dan,
Which Fram filter was it? I am one of those Fram bashers. I saw a filter display a few years ago that had the cans cut so you could lift it off and see the internal components. I was amazed. I bought several brands including the Walmart brand and cut them apart to show the gus at work where the subject had started. The Fram was the bottom end model but it was horrible. The media looked like material with the composition of a combination of brown grocery sack and cardboard. I'm sure yours must have been a ToughGuard or above.

I have been using the 25,000 mile change since 04 with Amsoil filters and oil.

Mike:

Amsoil is DEFINITELY a winner ;). I've been getting free oil changes for a year now...so umm...I have 5 quarts of amsoil bottles still yet to be used...

Hi Dan,
Which Fram filter was it?

Whatever they sell at Walmart. I didn't have a choice between types of Fram filters. It had the black rubber grip on the end. Whatever it was, it was evidently good enough to go 25k miles.

The black rubber grip is a better filter. I will post the pics I have if I can dig them out of one of my archive drives.

My daily driver car has a DIC (digital information center) that tell oil life. My last oil change Mobil 1 5-30 I had 10,000 miles and the DIC registered 27% life left. My 88 Fiero GT (58,000 miles on the engine ) is currently using Amsoil 10-30 and Amsoil filter. My last oil change was at two year interval, but only 7000 miles.

I'm glad you posted this. It makes me feel better about my 7,500 mile oil change interval

The cars I work on have a 15,000 mile service interval and have never seen a problem that could be blamed on that length of use. I have seen lots of damage caused by customers that don't check the oil level regularly. :(

I've been changing the blazer every 5,000 with royal purple 5w30 - but I have been trying to clear out the gunk from the previous owners lack of care. My next oil change in a week or so will be with mobil 0w30 and I plan on letting that go for 7,500 before I check it.

krousdb,

Blackstone may do good lab work, but the analysts seem to be junior employees or otherwise inconsistent in quality of work.
I've had odd comments from them in the past, and on another forum where many UOAs are posted, they often give dodgy advice.
Here's my take:

Because these things are not consistent, I advise shooting for a TBN no lower than 2.0 at the time an oil is condemned and removed from service.
You'll note that your TBN was at 0.6. I'd suggest decreasing your interval slightly, perhaps by 3000 miles. TBN loss tends to follow an algebraic pattern of decay; that is to say, it drops like mad right at the end. 7 to 5 is slow, 5 to 3 is quicker than 7 to 5 was, etc.

I won't comment on the insolubles level, as I'm not 100% confident of my opinions on that.

I am astounded at how well this M1 0W20 held its viscosity. In nearly every other UOA I've ever read, and I've read over 500, 0W20 and 5W20 oils experience a substantial viscosity drop. You must have an amazingly low quantity of gasoline in your crankcase oil.
Either that or oils have improved dramatically in the 3 years since I read UOAs every day.

In the future, I suggest trying "business card" used oil analysis in addition to your UOA.
This article provides some details, although there are other good articles out there:
http://articlebarracks.com/Article/Oil-Testing-for-Free/21428

I'd comment on the visual appearance of your used oil vs your new oil, but you didn't "drop" the oil on the paper in a single round puddle, so it would be hard to really draw a good conclusion.

Hi Tom, do you know that Blackstone uses a different TBN method than many other labs? The numbers are not quite interchangeable. I forgot the method numbers but they use the one that does not require methyl ethyl ketone.

DAS

wow fram filter too eh, I guess toyo filters are overpriced it seems

I'm speechless.

Hi Tom, do you know that Blackstone uses a different TBN method than many other labs? The numbers are not quite interchangeable. I forgot the method numbers but they use the one that does not require methyl ethyl ketone.

DAS

Ah. They must have changed. I remember that all UOA providers have different calibrations and weren't directly comparable, but perhaps they changed AGAIN.
I'll read up on that.
Nonetheless, if their guideline stat reads 0.6 and his result is 0.6 TBN, I'm puzzled as to why they suggest extending the interval. I'm all for experimentation, but I prefer the kind you do with diet soda and Mentos, not the kind where you're experimenting on your daily driver.

wow fram filter too eh, I guess toyo filters are overpriced it seems

The only filters that seem to make a difference in stats are those "bypass filter" systems, which I won't recommend.
Your other option for changing your UOA is to run a K&N air filter, but that makes things worse, not better.
Kinda' depressing for auto parts snobs, like I used to be... [I only used Mann filters on MY Mercedes!!!]

Fact is, if you're driving on paved highways, your levels of solid contaminant that will fill up the filter will be under 200 ppm with all contaminants added together.
200 parts per million out of 3.9 qt is still a trivial amount of solid matter, and I suspect that unless you've got serious engine problems or a missing air filter, you're not filling up any modern oil filter in 25K.

AHA!
I Googled up some answers.
Apparently Blackstone doesn't think TBN means anything.
Note their response to a query from a customer who asked if TBN ever goes to zero:

"We have indeed run samples where the TBN reached 0.0 and...nothing happened.
I guess in theory you might expect to see more wear after a while, but in
our opinion the TBN isn't all that important, because of that very case.
What happens when it reaches 0.0? Does the engine blow up? No. More wear?
Not that we've noticed, though we don't often see engines running an oil
long after the TBN reaches 0.0. I know a lot of people put a lot of priority
on a TBN, but we just haven't seen that it's all that important.

Sincerely,

Kristin Huff
Blackstone Labs"
Cite: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1577062

Not speaking as an engine oil authority here, but I would not zero out my TBN nor let the insolubles go too high. In fact I never ran Prius oil longer than about 12k before analysis.

It should be mentioned that there are many other UOA labs besides Blackstone and one is always free to choose. If I was really serious about qualifying some lab's results I'd send them blind duplicates and spiked samples. More money, more insight.

However long you decide to run oil, please take frequent looks at the dipstick!