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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg It is surprising that very few comparisons have been made between these two very different approaches. (http://seekingalpha.com/article/155618-chevy-volt-hybrid-vs-byd-e6-pure-electric)

http://www.youtube.com/v/vMvDX5Xbu6Y&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1Ravi Nagarajan - SEEKINGALPHA (http://seekingalpha.com) - August 12, 2009

What will Americans prefer? --Ed.

General Motors is claiming that the Chevrolet Volt hybrid vehicle can be expected to achieve 230 miles per gallon when used mostly in city traffic. The Volt is a hybrid vehicle that has a 40 mile range on electric power when the battery is fully charged along with a small internal combustion engine that acts as a range extender for the battery once the 40 mile electric only limit is reached.

It should also be noted that the Volt will consume approximately 25 kilowatt hours for every 100 miles. My local utility charges 12.76 cents per kilowatt hour which translates to $3.19 per 100 miles.

40 Mile vs. 249 Mile Electric-Only Range

While the claim of 230 miles per gallon seems impressive, BYD (BYDDF.PK) previously announced an electric-only vehicle that is reported to have an electric-only range far in excess of 40 miles. I wrote about the BYD e6 electric car in early May. The e6 has a 249 mile range on a full charge and can achieve a 50% charge in only ten minutes. The e6 consumes 29 kilowatt hours per 100 miles but appears to be a larger vehicle than the Volt.

From what we know of the Volt and the e6, GM and BYD have come up with very different approaches. The advantage of the Volt is that the internal combustion engine offers range extension without a recharge of the battery which is essential given the low 40 mile electric-only range of the Volt. The advantage of the e6 is a very long electric only range coupled with the ability to achieve a 50% recharge in only ten minutes. The disadvantage of the e6 is that drivers would be dependent on a recharge station once the 249 mile full charge range is... http://seekingalpha.com/article/155618-chevy-volt-hybrid-vs-byd-e6-pure-electric

Anyone with an 8th Grade competency in mathematics would never consider buying a Volt.

Why? Here are a few mathematic examples to consider:
-- The Volt's effective fuel economy is 28.75 MPG once the batteries are depleted. A 300-mile cruising range - 40 miles on battery = 260 miles on gasoline. Divide 260 miles by 8 gallons and you get 28.75 MPG. For a $40,000 "electric" car, this is pretty lame.

-- The Scion xD's cruising range on it's ten gallon tank is over 300 miles. Usually I get 32-42 MPG). The Scion xD costs about $16,000.

-- The Toyota Prius can be modified to become a PHEV for a $5k-$10k investment. Once the batteries are depleted, the car still gets 45-50 MPG. So, for about $30k-$35k you can have a car superior to the Volt.

Why would someone buy a Volt?

Anyone with an 8th Grade competency in mathematics would never consider buying a Volt.

Why? Here are a few mathematic examples to consider:
-- The Volt's effective fuel economy is 28.75 MPG once the batteries are depleted. A 300-mile cruising range - 40 miles on battery = 260 miles on gasoline. Divide 260 miles by 8 gallons and you get 28.75 MPG. For a $40,000 "electric" car, this is pretty lame.

-- The Scion xD's cruising range on it's ten gallon tank is over 300 miles. Usually I get 32-42 MPG). The Scion xD costs about $16,000.

-- The Toyota Prius can be modified to become a PHEV for a $5k-$10k investment. Once the batteries are depleted, the car still gets 45-50 MPG. So, for about $30k-$35k you can have a car superior to the Volt.

Why would someone buy a Volt?

For long distance driving, they wouldn't. For commuting, perhaps. The sticker price is way too high, but the concept is great!

Lets say my week looks like this:

Monday 30 back and forth to work
Tuesday 30 back and forth to work
Wednesday 30 back and forth to work
Thursday 30 back and forth to work
Friday 30 back and forth to work
Saturday 90 miles of a country picnic and errands
Sunday 50 miles of errands

The volt will have used 1 gallon of gas (assuming a plug in at night) while the Scion will have used about 8.5 gallons. You can make the argument about payback over the stick, which is a valid one, but if your goal is just to use less petroluem then the Volt is a better choice.

Now, shame on you for making me defend the Volt, that overpriced vaporware car. ;)

No matter how you cut it, this thing's still a chevy. I will never buy a Chevy. For 40k, I could buy two Honda Insights...

I wrote about the BYD e6 electric car in early May. The e6 has a 249 mile range on a full charge and can achieve a 50% charge in only ten minutes. The e6 consumes 29 kilowatt hours per 100 miles....

Be very leary of numbers like that. I'm all for EV's but cringe at when I see statements like that. YES, perhaps the technology is available that can handle absorbing the electrical energy that quickly, but lets do some math:

~50% of 249 miles is 124.5 miles

~at 29Kw/100 miles *'s 124.5 miles = 36Kw

~36Kw on a 120v circuit = 300AMPS!!!!!

~Pumping that many watts in 10 minutes on a 120v outlet would be 1800 amps!!!!

~The average household wall outlet: 15amps

~Even on a 240v outlet, your amperage load would be half of that, but most of those outlets are limited to 50amps, some as high as 70amps I believe.


A guy in my area drives a Scion xB eBOX converted by A/C Propulsion. On a 110v outlet he can do a full recharge in about 13 hours I recall him saying. May have been as little as 8.5 hours. On a 240v outlet he can do it in about 3 hours. When he takes a trip longer than his 120 mile range, he makes a stop at a campground to plug in to their 240v circuits and takes a long lunch. Any place he request to charge his EV at has always done so complimentary as it is an interesting request.

When a company makes a statement about being about to do a substantial charge in a similar time to pumping gasoline, it is simply not possible unless there's a utility company's switching station that you're pulling directly from, or some for of charging station with a massive capacitor bank that has stored all that energy up over time for you to pull from.

I may have calculated something wrong in my numbers, but the point is the same. You simply cannot pull that kind of power that quickly with common outlets available.

A camp ground for 240V charging? I never thought of that one!! Maybe I don't have to wait for a charging station to show up in the middle of my longest (130mi) normal trip? :D

Hi Indigo:

___The Volt will do far better than 28.75 mpg after the pack is depleted. The Prius-II PHEV conversion is not superior as it has to be worked to even come close. The Volt will drive on EV without any hacks at any legal speed limit in the US while offering the average Joe 40-miles on its pack alone. The Conversions cannot touch this.

___Would I consider a Prius-II PHEV conversion or a Volt for ~ the same price? I will take the Volt without question and so would everyone else. Whether it bares fruit is an entirely different matter but watch the Volt's $40K figure evaporate by this time next year.

___Regarding the BYD, which vehicle would you rather be surrounded by in an accident, a Geo Metro or a BYD? I will take a Volt, Focus or Leaf BEV, Prius-III OEM PHEV today... Maybe not tomorrow but today, yes.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Be very leary of numbers like that. I'm all for EV's but cringe at when I see statements like that. YES, perhaps the technology is available that can handle absorbing the electrical energy that quickly, but lets do some math:

~50% of 249 miles is 124.5 miles

~at 29Kw/100 miles *'s 124.5 miles = 36Kw

~36Kw on a 120v circuit = 300AMPS!!!!!

~Pumping that many watts in 10 minutes on a 120v outlet would be 1800 amps!!!!

~The average household wall outlet: 15amps

~Even on a 240v outlet, your amperage load would be half that, but most of those outlets are limited to 50amps, some as high as 70amps I believe.


A guy in my area drives a Scion xB eBOX converted by A/C Propulsion. On a 110v outlet he can do a full recharge in about 13 hours I recall him saying. May have been as little as 8.5 hours. On a 240v outlet he can do it in about 3 hours. When he take a trip longer than his 120 mile range, he makes a stop at a campground to plug in to their 240v circuits and takes a long lunch. Any place he request to charge his EV at has always done so complimentary as it is an interesting request.

When a company makes a statement about being about to do a substantial charge in a similar time to pumping gasoline, its simply not possible unless there's a utility company's switching station that you're pulling directly from, or some for of charging station with a massive capacitor bank that stored all that energy up over time for you to pull from.

I may have calculated something wrong in my numbers, but the point is the same. You simply cannot pull that kind of power that quickly with common outlets available.

I really appreciate these numbers!

We talk alot about PEVs but I rarely see real consumption numbers to know how much it would cost to "fill the tank".

In Columbus Ohio residents pay about 11 cents per KWh. If he gets a full charge in 13 hours off a 110v outlet (with a 15A rating assuming he's using maxing it out) then it would cost only $2.18 in electricity to charge to full.

Aptera where are you! I want a BEV now! :)

The guy I know with the eBox is actually on the board of directors for the Florida Electric Auto Association. His calculation is similar to what was just mentioned of being between $2 - $3 depending upon how much he had previously depleted the battery.

People balk at the idea of spending nearly $80k on an EV, but South Florida is riddled with +$80k vehicles.

I think EV's are not a big favorite of the gov't (the people who collect tax revenue from liquid fuels, both local at Federal) because it would be difficult to control the ability to tax someone who is charging their EV, and not when they are using the household energy consumption they normally would. That would require everyone to have some form of charger that communicates directly to some central billing server, etc.

That would require everyone to have some form of charger that communicates directly to some central billing server, etc.

Or change the point of taxation. How about taxing tires heavily instead? There's already pretty decent numbers for tire life/wear. Make a metric for examining tread life vs the tire's rated tread depletion and base the tax on that.

Charging at the charger would be difficult too because some may use solar power or run their own generator which would never see the grid.

Just a thought.

Or change the point of taxation. How about taxing tires heavily instead? There's already pretty decent numbers for tire life/wear. Make a metric for examining tread life vs the tire's rated tread depletion and base the tax on that...

That is a thought. Those of us that drive nicer and make our tires last longer are also doing less damage to the roads anyway.

I would hate (love?) to hear the screams from the left-lane tire burners though.

I think what might work best may be to pay a simple tax based on how many miles you drove for that given year if you have an EV in order to make up for the loss in liquid-fuel taxation. That way people still driving ICE vehicles are not subjected to that tax. If you were to tax tires for EV's only, then one could simply mount their EV wheels on a gasoline vehicle and get new tires or so. Always a loop-hole.

I think what might work best may be to pay a simple tax based on how many miles you drove for that given year if you have an EV in order to make up for the loss in liquid-fuel taxation.

Two problems:

First, this requires reporting of milage. What agency is going to be responsible for this? How often?

Second, fuel taxes are divided between state and federal entities, (and local?). How do you determine the miles driving within the state that belong to the home state, and those miles driven in a neighboring state?


That way people still driving ICE vehicles are not subjected to that tax. If you were to tax tires for EV's only, then one could simply mount their EV wheels on a gasoline vehicle and get new tires or so. Always a loop-hole.

I thought about this too. I didn't specific, but I would eliminate the fuel tax entirely and do the tire tax for everyone. If we didn't want to do that we could take a hybrid (no pun) approach:

Make EV tires a different color (white maybe?). This is technique is already used for fuel that is not used for driving (talk to RV drivers that put that red diesil in their driving tanks ;)).

The taxation problem has been gone over pretty throughly before with no solution agreeable to all....and it really has nothing to do with the volt vs e6.

Frankly I think the main reason we will see Volts sell (if they are not insanely priced) is by people who want a phev but want to buy GM. There are plenty of brand loyal people. Another reason is to support PHEVs in general if the Volt is the first one out of the blocks that you can actually buy at a local dealer. I wonder if this thing is going to start out like the PT cruizer with limited supply and people paying 5 and 10k over list.

Two problems:

First, this requires reporting of milage. What agency is going to be responsible for this? How often?

Your local tax collector when you renew your registration. Many states have annual vehicle inspections anyway.


Second, fuel taxes are divided between state and federal entities, (and local?). How do you determine the miles driving within the state that belong to the home state, and those miles driven in a neighboring state?

While some people do live near bordering states, many like myself in South Florida, do not. Even for those that live near other neighboring states, it could simply be looked at as 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another and just collected by the county that you are registered in.



I thought about this too. I didn't specific, but I would eliminate the fuel tax entirely and do the tire tax for everyone. If we didn't want to do that we could take a hybrid (no pun) approach:

Make EV tires a different color (white maybe?). This is technique is already used for fuel that is not used for driving (talk to RV drivers that put that red diesil in their driving tanks ;)).

I can't see the method of tires working out so well because the treadwear rating of tires varies so wildly between brands, models and vehicles and vehicle alignment. Far too many variables to judge driving distance fairly for all.