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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg Real-world mileage varies depending on such things as driving style, weather and road conditions. (cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24185)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2011_Chevroelt_Volt_-_230_mpg_ad.jpgSean Welch - CleanMPG (cleanmpg.com) - August 11, 2009

GM is beginning to pour on the coals here -- will the car deliver at a price we can afford? The Tesla Roadster's EPA rating is where the Volt's 230 mpg number may have come from.

Tentative EPA methodology results show 25 kilowatt hours/100 miles electrical efficiency in city cycle.

Plugging in daily is its key to high-mileage performance.

The Volt will receive “a higher number than anyone would expect,” GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, 77, said by e-mail yesterday. He wouldn’t say what the mileage will be.

GM is counting on unproven technology to leapfrog the Prius, the world’s best-selling hybrid, which starts at $22,000. Lutz said in May that the Volt would probably cost about $40,000.

The Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric vehicle is expected to achieve city fuel economy of at least 230 miles per gallon, based on development testing using a draft EPA federal fuel economy methodology for labeling for plug-in electric vehicles.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2011_Chevroelt_Volt_-_230_mpg_ad1.jpg2011 Chevrolet Volt - New Ad banner.

The Volt, which is scheduled to start production in late 2010 as a 2011 model, is expected to travel up to 40 miles on electricity from a single battery charge and be able to extend its overall range to more than 300 miles with its flex fuel-powered engine-generator.

"From the data we've seen, many Chevy Volt drivers may be able to be in pure electric mode on a daily basis without having to use any gas," said GM Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson. "EPA labels are a yardstick for customers to compare the fuel efficiency of vehicles. So, a vehicle like the Volt that achieves a composite triple-digit fuel economy is a game-changer."

According to U.S. Department of Transportation data, nearly eight of 10 Americans commute fewer than 40 miles a day.

"The key to high-mileage performance is for a Volt driver to plug into the electric grid at least once each day," Henderson said.

Volt drivers' actual gas-free mileage will vary depending on how far they travel and other factors, such as how much cargo or how many passengers they carry and how much the air conditioner or other accessories are used. Based on the results of unofficial development testing of pre-production prototypes, the Volt has achieved 40 miles of electric-only, petroleum-free driving in both EPA city and highway test cycles.

Under the new methodology being developed, EPA weights plug-in electric vehicles as traveling more city miles than highway miles on only electricity. The EPA methodology uses kilowatt hours per 100 miles traveled to define the electrical efficiency of plug-ins. Applying EPA's methodology, GM expects the Volt to consume as little as 25 kilowatt hours per 100 miles in city driving. At the U.S. average cost of electricity (approximately 11 cents per kWh), a typical Volt driver would pay about $2.75 for electricity to travel 100 miles, or less than 3 cents per mile.

The Chevrolet Volt uses grid electricity as its primary source of energy to propel the car. There are two modes of operation: Electric and Extended-Range. In electric mode, the Volt will not use gasoline or produce tailpipe emissions when driving. During this primary mode of operation, the Volt is powered by electrical energy stored in its 16 kWh lithium-ion battery pack.

When the battery reaches a minimum state of charge, the Volt automatically switches to Extended-Range mode. In this secondary mode of operation, an engine-generator produces electricity to power the vehicle. The energy stored in the battery supplements the engine-generator when additional power is needed during heavy accelerations or on steep inclines.

"The 230 city mpg number is a great indication of the capabilities of the Volt's electric propulsion system and its ability to displace gasoline," said Frank Weber, global vehicle line executive for the Volt. "Actual testing with production vehicles will occur next year closer to vehicle launch. However, we are very encouraged by this development, and we also think that it is important to continue to share our findings in real time, as we have with other aspects of the Volt's development."

Regarding the Volt's charge sustaining mode, GM continues to report an an overall range to more than 300 miles with its flex-fuel engine-generator. "If" the Volt is equipped with an 8 gallon tank as originally spec'ed, this leads to just 37.5 mpg which the HI-II, HCH-II, FFH and Prius-III completely bury.

Toyota sold 158,900 Priuses in the U.S. last year, 12 percent fewer than in 2007. The Volt is expected to be produced in volumes of about 60,000 annually after 2012. Its first year is expected to be within corporate fleets exclusively.

Seems utterly meaningless to say 230 mpg city. Prospective buyer needs to know city and highway mileage in charge-depleted generator mode, plus the AER in city and highway drive cycles, plus the power requirement per mile in city and highway cycles.

Only the buyer can evaluate how well these parameters play out in a particular driving pattern.

I just hope the stickers give a lot more than the usual mpg ratings, since it fails to provide the critical data for a buyer to estimate operating costs.

The Volt may be produced in volumes of about 60,000 annually, once it goes on sale, GM has said. :rolleyes:

Not if the MSRP starts at $40K. I would be surprised if they sold more than 25K a year.

:rolleyes:

Not if the MSRP starts at $40K. I would be surprised if they sold more than 25K a year.

Exactly. They need to be able to price this car under $25K if they hope to sell them anyone other than the Ed Begleys of the world

Here's the GM press conference from this morning:

http://natalie.feedroom.com/gm/onecliplive/Player.swf?site=gm&skin=onecliplive&fr_story=FRdamp359196&stories=1&tilenumber=3&tilemargin=4&detailsheight=50&env=prod






















An interesting hour of back and forth.

Hi Sean:

___No workie in IE 8.0 :(

___You can view the vid at GM's video media site...

http://gmtv.feedroom.com/

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It seems there are a lot of things that do not work in IE 8. :rolleyes:

It seems there are a lot of things that do not work in IE 8. :rolleyes:

Downloading Firefox works in IE 8. :)

Downloading Firefox works in IE 8. :)

Ha!!! :biglol:

Hi Guys:

___58% of CleanMPG users are running IE... We have to meet the market, not demand the market to meet us.

___The press conference through the 30:00 minute mark is not really adding much :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hey, I'm just complaining about version 8 -- which also doesn't play nice with the code in the left sidebar. :mad:

That version is 14.3% of our traffic.

Hi All:

___At 42.5 minutes, Lutz stuck his foot in his mouth regarding diesel :rolleyes:

___Sean, not entirely when in compatibility mode.

___I have seen our friend Mr. Bob from Autoweak in the media audience moer than a few times as well ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm not convinced the Volt is less vaporware than the EV-1. The Nissan Leaf will cost $7,000-$15,000 less than the Volt, and will better its range by 25%. But I notice its availability to consumers has been pushed back to 2011 now.

But I notice its availability to consumers has been pushed back to 2011 now.

This could be a good sign...

They may have been willing to push it into production with a few flaws, but realized that without any major competition they can hold off a little bit, get those little things fixed, and still beat the competition out of the gate. This way they don't get a bad name with a poorly released vehicle.

They want to avoid doing what GM did with the Vega.

In Chevy's defense, some of the extra expense is the generator, which gives it a much longer range. That generator also adds weight which reduces the electric-only range.
Is that worth $7-15K? Not really. It depends on the rest of the vehicle, but for that price it better be one heck of a luxury vehicle.

It seems we are going to have a number of EVs to choose from starting in 2011. :D

It sort of seems that each year the Volt is slated to come out "next year". It's always "next year". The Volt is vaporware.

Lutz was right that the Volt is a different kind of hybrid. The Prius, for example, alternates between burning gas and running on electricity. The Volt, by comparison, alternates between burning taxpayer cash and running on hype.

This isn't a real car. Real cars are ones that you can go down to a dealership and actually buy.

How are they calculating the 230mpg figure? By my understanding of things 25kwh/100mi equates to about 140mpg.

How are they calculating the 230mpg figure? By my understanding of things 25kwh/100mi equates to about 140mpg.

They are doing it the same way I got 299MPG. By not including the kWh used. If you included kWh used I'm willing to bet it would be something around 80-90MPGe

From what I've read it appears they ran the battery down on the EPA highway cycle first, then ran the city cycle on the range extender. Since it still goes 40mi AER on the highway cycle, and that cycle is 10mi, they ran it through that 4 times. The city cycle is 11mi long. If we assume right around 50mpg for that last cycle, then ignore the electric usage (as Jay states), you get 0.22g used over 51mi... or 231.8mpg.

The obvious flaw with this is the fact that that number is arbitrarily based on a chosen distance of travel after exhausting the AER. I would much prefer to hear the 25kwh/100mi along with AER for both city and highway... followed by normal gas ratings on the EPA cycles run only on the range extender (after exhausting AER). That would give a clear picture of what should be expected. Not some "valid only for 51mi driven this way" rating. :p

Hey, I'm just complaining about version 8 -- which also doesn't play nice with the code in the left sidebar. :mad:

That version is 14.3% of our traffic.

They often stack something nasty in Chrome and occasionally make a capital "F" formation, then I laugh at that and move on. The latest beta works well with it but the stable version doesn't often display the preview pics on the nav bar properly.

How are they calculating the 230mpg figure? By my understanding of things 25kwh/100mi equates to about 140mpg.

I think it's called "lying", which GM is very good at.

If the Volt has a 300-mile overall range and a 40-mile EV range, this means it has a 260-mile range on gasoline. If it has an 8-gallon tank, the Volt gets 28.75 MPG on gasoline. My $16k Scion xD easily beats that figure.

I'm not sure where this 8g tank thing is coming from... The size of the tank has never been released precisely because people will attempt to determine the fuel economy from that and a range estimate.

Personally, I expect the tank to be a good bit smaller than 8g.

As for the Volt being vaporware, I doubt it at this point. The more appropriate question is whether this vehicle will be anything more than a niche product selling in very low quantities.

I don't envy the regulators for trying to come up with a MPG number. For quite a few people it will be infinite and for others it will be less. My mother would never buy gas again, and I would use less than 2 gallons a week for a resuting 150MPG.

There is no shortage of people that will buy a car for it's image. Look at how many Hummers were sold.

Hi Indigo:

___It has 300-mile range after the pack is depleted.

___The 8-gallon tank spec came from a tech at one of the Auto Shows we visited last year.

___Southerncannuck, I am hopeful that it will be sold in the millions but with a $40,000 price tag, it costs more than a Hummer in most cases!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Ah... I remember that now. However, wasn't GM claiming a 700+mi range at that time? They've dropped the estimate since then. GM debated for a while about having two fuel tanks (straddling the the center cargo area) -- that capacity may have been for both tanks. With lower range and continued emphasis on weight savings, it is quite possible there is now one tank at half that capacity.

Incidentally, there is now more information available about how that 230mpg estimate was calculated. It includes data from 2001 gathered from a random population on how much driving was done daily on average. There is also a confirmation that the energy content of the electricity used for propulsion is ignored in the calculation.

So, as stated above... an arbitrary distance was chosen and no attempt was made to factor in energy equivalence. :rolleyes:

Hi Sean:

___Going back to the original GM supplied specs, 100 mpg at 80 miles out, yielded the 50 mpg rating. Whether GM can met this remains to be seen but 50 mpg should be doable with the capability to drive under EV/Glide at any speed. The engine runs at some base load and what is not used to propel it goes into the pack for use when the ICE is shut down. That conversion still gets in the way but it makes sense as that is what a std. Hybrid does. Runs in an efficient area as much as possible and dump the excess to the pack for later use.

___Thanks for the info on the Volts 230 mpg testing criteria... Totally out there but going back to the EPA estimates on the RAV4EV, 112 mpgUS combined with a 125 mpg city rating and 100 mpg highway rating. This is on a 270 Wh/mile city and 340 Wh/mile highway while the Volt's city is now spec’ed at 250 Wh/mile. About a 10% improvement which is uninspiring given the weight should come in around 15% less than the small SUV and the aerodynamics have to be at least 50% cleaner?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

GM is claiming 1 penny per mile-more or less.
So they must be saying it will do one mile for just 100 WHRs?-and 10 cents per KWHR electricity?
Doesn't the Prius use almost double 100 WHRS that when all electric?

It is an impressive number. But $40,000 is a BS price.
Charlie

Sorry guys I had to jump in on a MPGe conversation.

My metric is still 14.4 KWh = 1 Gallon of gas. I always do a Green House Gas comparison instead of a $$ comparison, but in Houston the GHG and $$$ comparison are about the same.

Last tank was bought at $2.45 / gal.
Last electric bill was $0.17 / kWh. (<== REALLY, totally nuts that! )

Anyway, here's my supporting documentation on 14.4 KWh = 1 Gal of Gas:

I made an excel spreadsheet that does it here:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=28

Based on the work that google did here:
http://www.google.org/recharge/dashboard/calculator

I tried to reproduce their work here:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46853#post46853

Based on research I did here:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512

Because I got frustrated by what I read in similar stories here:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9271

11011011

GM is claiming 1 penny per mile-more or less.
So they must be saying it will do one mile for just 100 WHRs?-and 10 cents per KWHR electricity?When measuring Wh/mi the lower the number the better. If GM claims the Volt will do Pure EV at 100 Wh/mi that would be FANTASTIC for a car that size.

For the record, google's PHEV Prius fleet is averaging 139 Wh/mi based on what they posted here: http://www.google.org/recharge/experiment/dpm.html

Correction: The 139 Wh/mi is with gas assist, so it's not very indicative of what is really required to push a prius in EV for one mile.

11011011

Hi Dan:

___The Volt is quoted to consume about 250 Wh/mile and that is about what the Prius-II does when on electric alone as well. I believe the RechargeIt electricity consumption Google posted was electricity along with gasoline use.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Dan:

___The Volt is quoted to consume about 250 Wh/mile and that is about what the Prius-II does when on electric alone as well. I believe the RechargeIt electricity consumption Google posted was electricity along with gasoline use.

___Good Luck

___WayneQuite right! My oversight.. thanks.

If it uses 250 WHRs per mile,and electricity is 10 cents per, it is 2.5 cents per mile-

How does GM get 230 mpg equivalent. 230 miles will cost over $6,and gas is $2.50?

It looks more like 100 mpg to me(which is pretty good of course).

What am I missing here?
Charlie

Hi Charlie:

___Sean's post #25 above... And 230 mpgUS is a number way out of the norm no matter how its calculated. Take it to $ or Wh/Mile and the pronouncement begins to meet the realities that Jay Groh (TheForce), some of the other PHEV owners and past RAV4EV owners have experienced.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,-thanks.

So they literally mean MPG -completely ignoring that electricity isn't free,and most electric production uses lots of fossil fuel.

They are doing this
1)Total distance 50 miles
2)All electric distance 40 miles
4)All gasoline distance 10 miles at 50 mpg- 0.2 gallons total

50miles/.2 gallons =250 mpg.

Instead of
1)40 miles electric= 10 KWHRS= $1= .4 GALLONS
2) 10 MILES GAS=.2 GALLONS

50 MILES/.6 = 83MPG.

The Leaf will get infinite mpg by this method.

Surely the EPA won't allow this?
Charlie

Surely the EPA won't allow this?
Charlie

We can hope not, but that all depends on whether they really want to push EV tech or not. The EPA does get political, no matter what they say otherwise, so if they really want to push the tech they will run it that way.

It is the first EV they have to make a decision on, so no one really knows what decision they will make.

Hi Charlie:

___The EPA and GM are essentially one in the same so anything could happen ;)

___Taliesin, the EPA did report the RAV4EV in the EPA Fuel Economy Guide back in 03 and it was rated at 124/100 mpgUS city/highway. How they could allow the Volt far more FE while consuming more fuel (meaning some) is going to be a stretch!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Taliesin, the EPA did report the RAV4EV in the EPA Fuel Economy Guide back in 03 and it was rated at 124/100 mpgUS city/highway. How they could allow the Volt far more FE while consuming more fuel (meaning some) is going to be a stretch!

That's true, I forgot about the RAV4EV and the Ranger EV (not sure what the rating for that one was). They do have some precedents to follow.

Color me embarassed.:o

Sorry guys I had to jump in on a MPGe conversation.

My metric is still 14.4 KWh = 1 Gallon of gas. I always do a Green House Gas comparison instead of a $$ comparison, but in Houston the GHG and $$$ comparison are about the same.Fair enough. That puts the Volt at only 58mpg in all-electric mode, barely better than a Prius fueled by gasoline. I had been using the ~34 kWh/gallon metric that has been used in the past by the EPA to rate vehicles such as the RAV4 EV.

For the record, here are all the EPA ratings I've been able to find on fueleconomy.gov for EVs. Couldn't find anything on the Ranger EV, GM EV1 or any others. Presumably these are downrated per 2008 standards:

2001-2002 Ford Explorer USPS Electric: 63/55/47 mpg.
2001 Ford Th!nk: 106/94/83 mpg.
2000 Nissan Altra EV: 117/123/130 mpg.
2001 Nissan Hyper-Mini: 120/107/94 mpg.
2001-2003 Toyota RAV4 EV: 125/112/100 mpg.
2000 Toyota RAV4 EV: 117/104/91 mpg.