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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Japanese_Flag_30x22.jpg "... Which makes you wonder if Honda came out of the box with its lowest possible prices, or whether there’s some room to trim or offer incentives, should later sales not meet expectations." (http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS334951385120090615)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2010_Honda_Insight-II2.jpgMatthew DeBord - REUTERS (http://www.reuters.com) - June 15, 2009

The Prius is definitely the superior vehicle in terms of both utility and FE. --Ed.

The new Honda Insight hybrid is supposed to be a game-changer because it’s priced lower than a comparable Toyota Prius (right around $20K for the Insight versus $22K for the Prius). However, as Reuters (via Autoblog) is reporting, the Insight may not hit its debut-year sales numbers.

Obviously, in a cataclysmically down new car market, no one is hitting the targets. But given that the Insight’s main competitive advantage right now is price, it could be a problem because it hasn’t yet had the time to build up counter-Prius mindshare. When people think hybrid, they still think Prius. That’s the main thing the Insight needs to overcome, initially.

The Insight is selling well in Japan, and it should sell well in North America when sales pick up. The issue is really one of pent-up demand. Gas prices are creeping up, which should help the hybrid market overall (it collapsed after gas prices descended from their 2008 highs). Customers who’ve been on the fence about a new car may be ready to buy over the next 6-12 months, and there’s a... http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/idUS334951385120090615

Granted, I'm biased, but I question the comment about utility. I just returned from a 700 mile round trip through IL, IN and OH with 2 adults, their stuff, and a moderate-sized greyhound dog along for the ride. The HI-2 still managed 46.5-47.0 mpg at highway speeds (at the speed limit of 65-70 mph, depending on the state), with CC and A/C set to auto at 73 F (ECO mode on). The only time the car felt as though it was dragging was attempting to accelerate quickly down relatively short on-ramps at rest stops. With 1 stop on the return almost 6 hour trip, I remained comfortable in the seat (this was a concern for me with the HI-2 on long trips).

I noticed that the carpeting doesn't seem to be quite as thick or as padded, for example, as my HCH-II. Despite this, the sound intrusion was less than my HCH and I didn't notice any rattles or poor fit/finish. I would dispute the reviews that describe the interior as cheap, though the "busy" accusation may be legit. The back seat was great for the dog but I wouldn't want an adult over 6' stuck there for a cross country drive, though the end seats are definitely better than the middle one, which rides higher and is useful for children only.

Is the car overpriced as it stands now, probably. If I hadn't have gotten a few accessories thrown in b/c the car was delivered late, I would have been kind of miffed about paying closer to sticker than invoice for it. If Honda ran financing specials, since they don't believe in rebates, or some other incentive (how about a year's free gas with a $500 gas card?), this car would fly out of the lot. I personally found it cheaper because it uses the same filters, oil, etc as the HCH II which makes stocking common maintenance items easier.

So far, over 2K miles we've been pleased with the performance of the HI-2. It does fit a different niche than the Prius, and performs differently. I wouldn't base all judgments on the HI-2 solely on the EPA ratings, which are totally inaccurate and lowball everyday performance from even a novice, or apparent decontenting such as a 2-stage VTEC system or the lack of a dual scroll A/C compressor. This hybrid does make it easy for non-hypermilers and the underinformed general public to drive a hybrid that lives up to and exceeds their expectations for mileage.

The question becomes, is the Prius worth $2K more than the Honda Insight? And the answer most people will give is yes.

Consider the typical hybrid car buyer. He's older and well off, so the $20K+ price tag doesn't scare him off from either vehicle. He's more aware of the Prius than the Insight (a decade will do that). He looks at the reviews and sees good things about both. But, he's mostly concerned about fuel economy and image (from what we've seen from the surveys). That means when he makes a decision to buy, he'll probably opt for the Prius over the Insight.

Unless Honda does something to really differentiate the Insight from the Prius, that's the way it will go.

A cheaper hybrid (say under $17K) would allow a different type of shopper in the door.

Consider the typical hybrid car buyer. He's older and well off,

In fairness to Honda, I think this is what they are trying to fix. The point of the car is to bring the technology down a rung or two on the socioeconomic ladder. Unfortunately I **do** think they blew it. IMA just isn't worth what they are charging when you consider that a normal Fit for many thousands less can break 40mpg using nothing more complicated than moderation of speed.

I was also disappointed to see that the Insight only comes with cloth seating, no leather or even "leatherette" (vinyl) option. I prefer leather/leatherette just because of the ease of cleanup. The cloth seats in old Chevy Celebrity never completely got grease stains out of it from that summer I spent working as a short order cook, and I got one chocolate stain on my Beretta's cloth seats in the first month of ownership that lasted until I got rid of the car. (And though I don't have children yet, I suspect at some point in the future kids might be climbing over the seats of my cars...)

Considering the price premium for the Insight - and the fact that leather is available in the heretofore lowly Civic(!) - I'd expect leather to at least be an option.

I wonder how many people see the insight 2 as a copycat prius that's cheaper and doesn't perform as good? I mean, that's basically what I see when I look at it.

The question becomes, is the Prius worth $2K more than the Honda Insight? And the answer most people will give is yes.

A cheaper hybrid (say under $17K) would allow a different type of shopper in the door.

I agree with you 100%. This is where I believe honda missed the mark. If they would have released a car under 20k in Canada with these numbers people would be flocking to it. They could have made it smaller and cheaper with less extras. I know if I was willing to spend the 25k on an Insight II I'd be dropping the extra 3k to get a Prius which seems to be vastly superior to the Insight in almost all regards. In my current hwy biased driving mode, I would probably drop the extra 2500k and get a Civic hybrid, but I cannot see any scenario which would have me considering the insight II.

It is hard to top the current Prius.

I'm wondering though if the article correctly articulates the price difference between the Insight II and the Prius. Or is the Insight selling at more than Honda had first advertised?

--des

While I have often drooled over new cars or models of cars, I prefer to get 2nd or 3rd year versions of the model as most of the problems have crept up and they are either fixed or the public is reasonably aware. Considering a car is an investiment for a minumum of 5 years for most people and over 10 for many, its better to know you are getting something that will last and not just the newest fad.

Although the Prius performs better on several major points (space/utility, acceleration, mpg, value/$) the Insight does have its strengths. It doesn't have Toyota's trademark marshmallowy handling, and it doesn't have the Prius' idiotic hyperaggressive traction control.

Those are not going to be deal-makers/breakers for very many people, but personally given the choice between the two I'd take the Insight for those reasons alone. I like my cars to handle and corner well, and I don't mind sacrificing a bit of "comfort" (quotes intended) to achieve that. Heck, even Hondas (of which I have owned SIX) seem a bit mushy to me now that I'm getting spoiled by VWs. Also, I log quite a few miles driving on backcountry roads of marginal quality to get to hiking/biking trailheads. I don't need AWD and I don't need massive ground clearance -- but I DO need a vehicle that at least permits me to use whatever limited traction I have in those conditions. Furthermore, I live in an area where it doesn't snow often but we have NO snow removal (even in the city), and when it does snow it usually keeps marginal snow vehicles such as the Prius stranded for days. Around here, a Prius could easily cost me a couple of extra PTO days a year!

Again, to most people those advantages are minor, but in addition the Insight has one more HUGE advantage: its potential appeal to younger buyers. As great as it is, the Prius is mostly a middle-aged person's car. The Insight's image is more youthful, and combined with the slightly lower price point it's going to appeal to a substantially different demographic. I think the Insight will steal more sales away from non-hybrid compacts like Mazda3s, Matrixes, and Jettas than it will from the Prius. Most people don't buy cars for their technical traits, they buy them for image. Remember, that's one of the primary reasons the Prius has so handily outsells the HCH. Like it or not, to most people cars = clothing.

I'm really offended by the idea of a vehicle that, in a limited-traction situation, prevents me from using what little traction I have left.

Hi WriConsult,

Have you ever driven a Prius in such conditions. I have driven both my Prius and my old Jetta TDI and I think the Prius is better overall in snow then the Jetta. Yes there are some conditions where the car acts differently. If you are have the "floor it and I get to spin the wheels" mentality, then you will be dissapointed with the Prius, but the bottom line is the the Prius traction control works very well if you know what to expect and how to operate it.

Hi Dan:

___Go take the new Prius-III out with the 17's. I think any hint of "does not handle well" will go out the window. I have to look it up but I can bet the 17" equipped 2010 Prius-III will easily best the 09 Jetta TDI on the skid pad and that vehicle holds pretty darn good too!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi WriConsult,

Have you ever driven a Prius in such conditions. I have driven both my Prius and my old Jetta TDI and I think the Prius is better overall in snow then the Jetta. Yes there are some conditions where the car acts differently. If you are have the "floor it and I get to spin the wheels" mentality, then you will be dissapointed with the Prius, but the bottom line is the the Prius traction control works very well if you know what to expect and how to operate it.I have not driven a Prius in the snow. I'm going off of numerous reports that I've read. It may well be that the Prius has more actual traction than the Jetta (which IMO generally has more to do with tires than the vehicle's design), but my quibble is with whether the vehicle allows you to use it.

No I'm certainly not of the "floor it and spin 'em" mentality. But my understanding is the Prius TC cuts all power if it detects any wheelspin. Having learned to drive on MN's snowy roads as well as done a lot of snow driving in the mountains around here, I know that there are many situations where getting yourself going may involve a modest amount of wheelspin. There are times where an small icy patch may cause momentary wheelspin, and I don't want a sudden loss of power. And I can't tell you how many times I've gotten myself out of a sticky situation by allowing the wheels to spin moderately as the car gradually creeps forward and pulls itself out, something I understand can't be done with a Prius. This is particularly true in deeper snow, which often will trip wheelspin sensors even when there isn't major wheelspin going on. And around here there's either NO snow or there's DEEP snow that you have to grind through. None of this groomed plowed stuff you midwesterners have the luxury of driving on.

From what I've heard, the aggressive TC continues in the P-III. Is there something about the HSD system that makes it vulnerable to damage from wheelspin? Could sudden changes in wheelspeed damage either the planetary gears or send an excessive pulse current between MG1 and MG2? I have wondered if maybe Toyota is doing this deliberately to protect a vulnerable component. Interestingly, I have NOT heard that Ford's similar system has this limitation.

Hi Dan:

___Go take the new Prius-III out with the 17's. I think any hint of "does not handle well" will go out the window. I have to look it up but I can bet the 17" equipped 2010 Prius-III will easily best the 09 Jetta TDI on the skid pad and that vehicle holds pretty darn good too!

___Good Luck

___WayneWell, I know you know a thing or two about solid cornering, Wayne. ;) Beating a Jetta on the skidpad would be impressive feat indeed. Can the 17s be obtained on the cheaper trim lines, or only on the high-buck ones with leather, nav, etc?

I have not driven a Prius in the snow. I'm going off of numerous reports that I've read. It may well be that the Prius has more actual traction than the Jetta (which IMO generally has more to do with tires than the vehicle's design), but my quibble is with whether the vehicle allows you to use it.

No I'm certainly not of the "floor it and spin 'em" mentality. But my understanding is the Prius TC cuts all power if it detects any wheelspin. Having learned to drive on MN's snowy roads as well as done a lot of snow driving in the mountains around here, I know that there are many situations where getting yourself going may involve a modest amount of wheelspin. There are times where an small icy patch may cause momentary wheelspin, and I don't want a sudden loss of power. And I can't tell you how many times I've gotten myself out of a sticky situation by allowing the wheels to spin moderately as the car gradually creeps forward and pulls itself out, something I understand can't be done with a Prius. This is particularly true in deeper snow, which often will trip wheelspin sensors even when there isn't major wheelspin going on. And around here there's either NO snow or there's DEEP snow that you have to grind through. None of this groomed plowed stuff you midwesterners have the luxury of driving on.

From what I've heard, the aggressive TC continues in the P-III. Is there something about the HSD system that makes it vulnerable to damage from wheelspin? Could sudden changes in wheelspeed damage either the planetary gears or send an excessive pulse current between MG1 and MG2? I have wondered if maybe Toyota is doing this deliberately to protect a vulnerable component. Interestingly, I have NOT heard that Ford's similar system has this limitation.

I used to think the same way. The system on the Prius works real well. You just have to get out of the mindset that the spinning wheels is superior to traction control.

Hi Dan:

___Indeed ;) :D

___Currently, the 17's are only included with a high buck package (surprisingly you cannot have the 17's with the solar sunroof package) but I suspect it will be an option for the lesser packages by next year. The 17's supposedly knock FE down by 3 mpg or so (nobody has proven this yet) but they sure do look great and improve the handling a bunch!

___Good Luck

___Wayne