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If the EPA can build an Explorer that gets 40 MPG, then the public will buy them when whats left of the American auto makers decides its good business to get us off the oil addiction.

A hydraulic hybrid powertrain will be the pathway to the car of the future.

Charles Gray, one of the people heading the EPA research into hydraulic hybrids, said recently;

"The hydraulic hybrid will be as significant to the auto industry as the assembly line."

"I can hold a 500 HP hydraulic motor in my hand."

We can build hydraulic hybrids with 25% fewer parts per vehicle, so the cost factor is actually a cost savings.

Of all the stimulus money they want to spend, this area of development is the only one that promises so huge a return on so small an investment, to say nothing of the balance of trade benefit, the national security benefit, or the environmental benefit.

The new Manhattan project would fund research and development into this powertrain configuration, and we will see 100 MPG cars within the next decade, that have perfromance confort and driveability that exceeds the best available today.

The US would emerge stronger than ever when we stop sending 300 plus billion dollars overseas to fund those who will kill us.

regards
gary

The energy density of compressed-air storage, which I assume
you're referring to, doesn't even rival current batteries.
What ace do you have up your sleeve here?
.
_H*

The energy density of compressed-air storage, which I assume
you're referring to, doesn't even rival current batteries.
What ace do you have up your sleeve here?
.
_H*

I am assuming you are referring to my post hobbit. If not then ignore my response.

Compressed air storage is not safe. There is the potential of spontaneous ignition of any lubricant vapors, the same way a diesel engine operates. The compressed air MIDI avoids mixing lubricant and high pressure air so the problem with spontaneous ignition does not occur.

My opinion based on a lot of research.

Batteries have many more deficiencies than short term high energy hydraulic accumulators.

Life expectancy
Cost
High burst energy output
Availibility of materials (see post about Lithiun supplies)

Hydraulics are a very mature industry. Nitrogen is used in accumulators due to danger if air is used.

Energy density certainly favors battery storage, but energy application, and recovery favors accumulators.

Even with todays gas electric hybrids, it seems the best fuel economy strategies still avoid using the battery, becasue the wheel to wheel efficiency of gas electric hybrids when regenerating is less than 50%, usually much less. If it was above 80%, which is the current threshold of the hydraulic hybrids, then you could use a P&G strategy.

Combine regenerative efficiency with a P&G strategy and the hydraulic hybrid has distinct advantages over electric configurations.

Hypermilers (in my opinion) drive cars in a specific operational tactic to avoid or eliminate their design defects.

Idling-total waste of energy, currently idle stop is the solution. Hypermilers cut the engine off unless it is designed that way. A hydraulic hybrid can easily employ engine off restarts by using accumulator storage to start the engine.

Acceleration-
When properly driven engine efficiency can be maximized, but acceleration is still when energy consumption is highest. Recovered braking energy with an accumulator has the potential to eliminate 80+% of accelerative fuel consumption. Also cold starts would provide initial topping off of accumulator energy storage.

Constant speeds-
With a high efficiency hydraulic powertrain and an infinitely variable transmission, you have the ability to P&G the accumulator while the vehicle speed remains constant. This allows you to operate the engine at max efficiency while vehicle speeds remain constant.
The engine only runs a small percentage of the time the vehicle is in motion. That percentage depends on the overall average energy demand of your driving situation.

Deceleration (foot off the gas)-
This is a negative energy situation, where energy recovery with hydraulics store energy. Hypermilers avoid this becuse they understand the inefficiency of energy recovery in electric hybrids. While electric energy recovery is better than no recovery, it is far less effective than hydraulic recovery.

Coasting-
Hypermilers use engine off to get maximum mileage. A hydraulic hybrid with an IVT powertrain does exactly the same thing, without any driver imput or additional work by the driver.

Braking-
Hypermilers avoid it like the plague. Hydraulic accumulators can recover very high energy imputs, and reapply that same energy at very high output levels, with a life expectancy of tens of thousands of cycles, with no loss in efficiency. Nitrogen filled, bladder type accumulators, have efficiencies of 95-99% and the pump motors efficiencies can approach 93% at lower speeds (current bent axis design).

Wheel to accumulator, back to wheel, the simplest possible energy conversion process, with the minimum losses in conversion (Carnot's Law).

Refer to the EPA hydraulic hybrid documents for a direct comparison of current designs.

The design I am working on should provide even higher percentages of efficiency, and placing it in the wheel hub itself lowers the necessary RPM of the pump motor which is where the current bent axis pumps efficiency drops off considerably. The EPA design runs their pumps at prop shaft speed, which is usually 3 or more times the wheel speed,

Another advantage of my design is 4 wheel regeneration as well as 4 wheel drive.

While most hypermilers would scoff at a 4 wheel drive, high efficiency hybrid of any configuration, the ability to place two wheels in neutral virtually instantaneously means you have the ability to regenerate energy at all 4 wheels. 4 wheel power application is just a function of the basic 4 wheel regeneration advantage. People in extreeme climate situations will also appreciate the 4WD potential, as well as the fact that extreeme climates are particularly devastating to electric vehicles.

4 wheel ABS and traction control in current vehicles uses the brakes to control wheel spin.

Individual in-wheel hydraulic drives would use the effective "gear ratio" to control wheel spin during braking or acceleration. This is quite the opposite of current ABS and traction control systems that basically waste energy to maintain traction, like driving with your foot on the brakes.

regards
gary

What's happened to both GM and Chrysler strikes a nerve to put it mildly.

As recently as 2006 they were business as usual. Even Lutz was saying then: "Build more Hummers".

GM has this mess of dealing with their dated organization, the UAW, dealerships, and stockholders. They did not have the balls to deal with this in time. Their solution? running ads goading customers if they have balls they will buy their products. Same for Chrysler. Other automakers got into FSPs, but not neck-deep like these two.

If it were not for one thing, I'd say good riddance and move on. That one thing is arguably the worst structural unemployment in US history when these two go down and perhaps two million Americans with them. :( I really don't want GM and Chrysler to fail, but how can they be saved now? The leaders in management, UAW, etc, are no better than Madoff in my books...every time they are in public they should feel like they get this look: "they fired two million, pocketed the money, and may have ended America's days as the worlds economic superpower".

How painfully right you are, Delta Flyer. I love my country. It is unique in the history of mankind. When I see people use their position of authority to feather their own nest at the expense of their country and the people they are there to serve, it makes my blood boil. They, like the sub-prime mortgage peddlers, the bankers, the Madoff's, those in power at AIG, Wall Street, and so many others yet to be uncovered, are picking the flesh from America's bones.

The real crying shame is that it is happening because we are letting it happen. We have no legislation in place imposing ethics on those given the authority to manage our affairs and legislating morality has always met with checkered success both in business and government. Yet, we as a country we MUST find a way to impose ethical behavior from those given power and authority.

Until then we are going to have health care insurers who have had free reign, continue to bleed our country to death while they "use their influence" to legislate that national health care is "unfair" competition.

Our economy and the ethics of those given the power to lead us are both going bankrupt very quickly now! :(:confused::eek:

Ford and others have been messing with accumulator systems for years. The problem as I see it has been the application and capture of the stored energy. Accumulator's, expansion tanks and such are very efficient storage and application units. One has to look no farther than HVAC, process and industry concerning steam, hot water and hydraulics.

I have been following Rides post very carefully. And completely understand the idea. I also understand the radial compressor and engine. I would like to know if Ride plans on using both sides of the pistion's for generation / capture / application.

Hummmm

Wow, nice explanation, Gary! So, the way I get it is that batteries would still be used to store the energy but that energy would be used to propel the car by hydraulic accumulators at all 4 wheels and that they would re-capture the energy used for acceleration much more efficiently than electrical regeneration. Very, VERY COOL!

My question is how come Joe America has not heard one peep about this? Is this just another good alternative that those with authority have seen fit to squash because, as Bob Lutz has said, "we don't need the competition"??

My opinion based on a lot of research.

Batteries have many more deficiencies than short term high energy hydraulic accumulators.
Gary,

Could you provide links with your research?

While hydraulic hybrids may have merit (and aware UPS is using a few), it's puzzling that none of the automakers have put a passenger hydraulic hybrid in production. Gas/electric hybrids have been out since 1996 - why are Toyota, Honda, GM, even Ford going with them? I'm aware that Ford may have been planning a hydraulic hybrid F150, but it was sketchy and heard nothing since.

This may sound cynical, but I see expert opinions all over the net. Occasionally I post into News Articles when those authoritative opinions seem dubious. I'm not saying your assertions are like that, but Art Spinella's Dust to Dust study is an infamous example of such.

Just asking for some supporting sources - that's all.

As for me and other members at CleanMPG, we will work to improve our fuel economy however we can. I'm not particular on what I drive, but I'm not disappointed on my Honda Insight or my results from hypermiling.

Good sources of information:

Google "EPA hydraulic hybrid."

Green Car Congress
"powertrain" topic
"hydraulic hybrid" topic
The missing link in the hydraulic hybrid powertrain is the in wheel drive. If you search my handle R.I.D.E. you should find some information.

R.I.D.E. stands for two systems
Rotational Inertial dampening Engine
Regenerative Infinite Drive Engineering

The rotary in wheel hydraulic pump-motor is the core of my powertrain concept. There are several advantages over other variable displacement pumps.

My design is similar to the "smart bomb" approach. Take the existing hub over axle configuration, basically the wheel of ancient times, and add a 3 piston rotary drive to the axle itself, with the ability to adjust the displacement through the stationary axle shaft.

Combine this with an accumulator and you have the ability to recover virtutally 100% of the energy available at all 4 wheels during any deceleration (minus the inevitable losses). Of course you loose some energy in the steps from wheel to storage. My design is wheel to accumulator, then back to wheel, the fewest possible changesin the energy state.

A fully charged accumulator would allow one acceleration event to freeway speeds, say 70 MPH.

Once you reached that speed the accumulator can provide the amount of pressurized fluid necessary to maintain any reasonable speed as long as that same accumulator has some pressure reserve.

To maintain the accumulator pressure levels withing predetermined minimum and maximum amounts, say 1000 to 4000 PSI. You add pressure the the accumulator by cycling your non replensihable power source (what consumes your fuel) to bring the accumulator pressure level to a predetermined maximum.

You have 3 choices, accelerate, coast, regenerate. Reverse is the opposite of foreward.
You accelerator pedal is gimballed like the rudders on some airplanes, right pedal down accelerate, pedals level neutral or coast, left pedal down regenerate or reverse.

With a true infinitely variable transmission, you can apply a specific amount of power to the wheels at any pressure level in the accumulator, by increasing the displacement as you pressure level drops.

An example:

You want to accelerate to 45 MPH.

You have a fully charged accumulator.

When you press on the accelerator pedal, the stroke on the pistons goes to max, then almost instantly that stroke decreases. This stroke change directly controls the power applied to each driven wheel. It could be two wheels or 4 wheels, depending on your desired rate of acceleration. You have 350 pounds feet of torque available to each wheel independently of the other wheels, since there is no powertrain connecting the wheels, other than supply and return hydraulic hoses, or passageways through the suspension components if you prefer to not have hoses.

Once you reach 45 MPH, the ivt stroke increases as accumulator pressures drop, then when your engine cycles on to restore the accumulator pressure to its max level that same stroke position decreases becasue the potential power in the fluid passing through the ivt increases as its pressure rises. Engine on or off, accumulator pressure high or low, the stroke position insures you consistently apply exactly the same amount of horsepower and torque to the wheels to maintian that 45 MPH, regardless of elevation changes.

Now you want to stop quickly because some moron pulled out in front of you. When you step on the brakes, the ivt stroke position reverses, sending high pressure back into the accumulator. Full stroke would lock up the wheels, so your ABS computer adjusts the stroke at each wheel to keep them on the verge of traction loss. You are regenerating every kilowatt (minus the small percentage of inevitable losses) of your inertia until you come to a complete stop due to the moron.

Becasue every system has losses, you have recovered over 80% of the energy you expended in the 0-45 acceleration event preceeding the panic stop. This energy allows you to accelerate to 80% of 45 MPH or 36 MPH.

In this whole cycle of acceleration and panic stop, your engine (electric, ICE, pick your poision) has not turned a single revolution. The complete cycle needed no additional power over what was initially available.

Now you have a vehicle that hypermiles itself.

regards
gary

Gary,

Could you provide links with your research?I do that myself and would appreciate not always having to dig up links myself.

I look forward to whatever may be out there in the future, but don't feel limited or inadequate by hypermiling in a 5-speed Insight in the present.

An imaginary trip down my thought process, after working on cars for 30 years.

The first time I read about pulse and glide was in 1970, when an Opel Kadett managed 124MPG.

Imagine a car that has none of these parts to wear out or break.

Clutch
Transmission
Cooling system
Induction system
Axle shafts
Brakes
Differential
Fan belts

The engine (or electric motor) needs no throttle control whatsoever. I prefer a diesel, but please do not limit your imagination to that source of accumulator regeneration. Any means of accumulator regeneration works for me.

If battery breakthroughs occur then my preference would be electric, but I wouldn't want to bet a few billion dollars on that happening in the near future.

The hydraulic powertrain would be a range extender for electric drives as well as a surge eliminator.

Now consider the 5 passenger car, it will weigh just over 2000 pounds and proivide all the comforts the driving public demands. Fully automatic drive, traction control and abs are standard.

The cold start would be utilized to fully charge the accumulator providing useful work and a load to make warm up time minimal. You could use a coolant heat storage system similar to the Prius to further enhance warmup.

The battery would be larger than current conventional vehicles to provide accessory power when the engine is off. All accessories would be modular components, easily removed and allowing for an exchange unit to be installed in minutes so your AC can stay at the dealer for service while you drive your car home, with a loaner unit keeping you cool.

Aero CD would be .20 or less, similar the Mercedes "bionic" design that is based on the Boxfish, with a CD of .18. Better aero would reduce sustained losses and shorten engine cycling and fuel consumption. Tires would have minimal rolling resistance and run flat capability, eliminating the necessity for a spare or tire changing tools.

This design does not require exotic materials and can be built for less than a Chevy Aveo.
No multi thousand dollar battery or electric motor.

Power supply modules can be interchangeable, one car can serve as urban, pure electric, or highwway IC transportation. Modules would be interchangeable in 2 minutes.

The engine (if IC) would be cooled by the lubrication system, with higher flow oil pump and a thermostatically operated cooler that would be needed only when sustained demand was encountered, like when you were climbing a mountain.

Powertrain components would be completely waterproof.

Accumulators would be structural components of the unibody, with the high pressure accumulator enclosed within the low pressure accumulator, located in the normal transmission hump of conventional vehicles to provide structural support and offset the weight of the accumulator by utilizing it's inherent strength for dueal purposes.

The UPS hydraulic hybrids used 80 gallons of hydraulic fluid for 26,000 pound vehicles. That means you can use about 6 gallons for a 2000 pound vehicle. Thats about 80 pounds for the high pressure accumulator fully charged with fluid.

Accumulators used in Americas Cup racers operate at 12,000 PSI, which if those pressures could be incorporated into this design would reduce the hydraulic fluid quantity by more than 50%.

regards
gary

Good Morning Gary;

Working on cars for 30 years has developed in you an understanding of hydraulics that to I, who knows very little about hydraulics, is truly marvelous. Your understanding is truly what this country needs to get us out of this god awful foreign oil dependency mess, the loss of our dollars worth and the consequential ownership of our country by those we are buying oil from.

But getting companies to invest in a car like that is to existing companies tantamount to asking them to fall on their sword, for just the reasons you state above. It is so good it will put them out of business. The oil industry and the auto industry have spent the last two or three decades doing everything in their power (legal and illegal) to keep our options on the cars that we can buy to what they are set up and manufacture. Even tho our ability to get enough oil is becoming more and more difficult and forcing our country into more and more conflict and debt, these companies have shown us that they will fight until the last dog is hung and cut down to preserve their profit. Their ethic, the American ethic, is "what is good for my pocketbook is good for the country." Most American companies and our government almost universally consider this unethical approach, a foundation of doing business.

So, not only will Ford, GM and Chrysler (or foreign auto manufacturers) not be very enthusiastic about developing it, they will actively try and prevent your success in bringing it to market, very much like they have done by keeping out high MPG cars they make for Europe.

The only way you could successfully bring a car like that to the market is through private funding or possibly as a government stimulus through Obama. But also keep in mind that the existing auto/oil cartel will fight you with every fiber of its being. They will buy restraint of your product by corrupting our legislators. They will purchase negative many media articles (i.e. the AAA opinion on hypermiling). They will use many, many illegal schemes to stop you. They will stop at nothing, for you are a direct threat to their bottom line and, that being the case, ethics be damned.

Not very pretty, but that is where I see us at this point.

Thanks a lot, Gary, for opening my eyes to the possibility hydraulics has for our country. I hope someone picks it up and truly runs with it!

Bob.

Good evening Robert;

My father celebrated his 88th birthday May 8th, our family came to the US in 1654 as indentured servants. My ancestors have served in almost every war since then, even two brothers on opposite sides during our Civil War.

Pop flew a B17 in WW2. It took 3 planes to finish 30 missions. Last mission was 6-6-44, D-Day. He drives an 01 Eldorado and gets close to 30 MPG highway.

Raised in the fifties by a genuine war hero, I was programmed for honesty and consideration for others, at the point of his belt.

Your analogy of the current situation with short sighted goals driven by greed for money and power is perfect.

Lets hope for the sake of this Planet that there are a few left with the old fashioned creed of personal sacrifice and long term conservators of our future, so our grandchildren will not have to pay a terrible price for our mistakes.

One thing that will really rock their collective boats, is when the Chinese and Indians (not native american-no offense intended) come into the auto manufacturing and importing scenario in this country.

They have the advantage of looking at our history of transportation evolution and adopting what is good while discarding what is bad. They will also provide fierce competition for domestic industry. Look at what South Korea has done in two decades.

My concept may be a potential pathway, but what is much more important than that is for all of us to keep our minds open to every potential pathway.

Hypermilers prove every day that there is much to be done in improving the way our cars are designed. The computer age has made it possible for every human to machine interaction to be recorded and programmed into the vehicle itself.

The Green car Congress thread titled INNAS and NOAX shows a very similar hydraulic hybrid design that cuts fuel consumption by 50% without any change in the engine.

One of Pop's favorite sayings was "blame the system, not the people". It disarms people to place the blame on the system. I don't think we will ever fix the way people drive.

I have no doubt we can fix the way cars operate.

When a Diesel electric train stops, the electric motors generate huge amounts of current. That electrical energy is used to heat a giant grid on the roof of the Locomotive, similar to a very huge electric stove burner.

What a waste!!!!!

Recover that energy using a similar hydraulic system and use the lost energy to reaccelerate the train.

Every person who investigates the hydraulic hybrid option becomes another potential advocate for real change, if they just keep their mind open.

As long as you can hypermile a car and increase the mileage by 20+%, the system (the car) is the real problem.

We (hypermilers) are some of the most important messengers this planet will see in this century. I applaud the efforts and susccess of every single on of you ladies and gentlemen.

If we can fix the system (cars) then we will loose our hobby, while we change the way cars are designed.

Cars do not have to be tiny to get good mileage. The EPA test mule got 80 MPG, and weighed 3800 pounds. The hydraulic system just needs to be sized for the vehicle, and there is no reason it can not work on anything with wheels.

Obama has thrown down the gauntlet. I did not support him, but I did dream he was looking at a car with my powertrain design and complementing me on the accomplishment.

I havent had many dreams come true, maybe I am overdue :rolleyes:.

regards
gary

I have always been impressed with hydraulic transfer of energy, storage and application.

If the money that has been spent thus far on battery tech had been applied to the hydraulic apps. We would already be reaping the benny's. Come on folks. It's took GM how long and untold billions if you believe 1/128 of what they say to come up with Volt. When they had it all on paper from locomotive and marine hybrids. All that was missing was the darn battery. There inlies the rub. They have not developed anything new. Just threw a battery in. And they think they will sell them at 30 or 40k,,, or what ever the pipe dream is.

Gary

Do you plan to use both sides of the piston's,,, ie top and bottom say,,, like a steam engine? Seeing there is a energy potential on both sides regardless of stroke or position? That could be a solution to two stage variable operation. Remember there is the one accumulator there. What about a slower charging back side scavaging circuit waiting to back up the main.

I wish I had the smarts to tinker a system like this.

Folks ,,, it is for real tech!

Okay, something is nagging at the edge of my consciousness saying
"stay out of this one", but I'm gonna snug down my tinfoil hat
and ask this: What is the storage mechanism for the accumulator
in question? Springs? Bellows? Air? The latter and possibly
most common approach is why I said what I did about compressed
air energy density and the amount needed to push vehicles around.
.
_H*

hobbitt;

Energy density in accumulators is something like 50KW seconds per kilogram, at pressures now used. Not sure if it was 3k PSI or 5 K PSI. Efficiencies are as high as 99%.

Two basic configurations are piston and bladder. I like the baldder type becasue they are rebuildable after tens of thousands of cycles, maybe even over 100 k cycles, more than likely the life of the vehicle.

psyshack;
You could use both sides of the cylinders if you designed them to be double action. I thought about DA for a while, but decided to focus on the SA config, becasue the further you have displacement changes from the center of rotation the greater the centrifugal forces you are fighting in your return circuit.

Two ports in your adjustable journal for supply and return fluid are about as simple as you can get, quite the opposite of the general trend of more and more complicated that has gone on for the last 60+years.

hobbitt;
I promise you this sincerely, I will never conduct myself inappropriately on this forum.
This is real in my opinion. I appreciate you or anyone else taking the time to address your concerns.

How much energy storage do you really need in a vehicle? The best battery on the planet is the NASA flywheel battery used in spacecraft. It spins at 150 k RPM in a perfect vacuum with magnetic bearings. It retains something like 98% of its stored energy for 6 months. 10 kilowatt hours in a unit about the size of a gallon paint can weighing a few pounds.

The problem is the cost. and the effects of impacts and vibration if ever used in a car.

Think about what you really need for hypermiling. I see the storage as something that can be discharged in 10 seconds at max acceleration, to eliminate the vast fuel expendature in acceleration, without adding a significant weight penalty to the vehicle. Engine on-off recharging of the accumulator allows pulse and glide operation while maintaining constant vehicle speeds. Vehicle speed changes in the current pulse and glide strategy encounter losses due to the exponential increase on total aero drag losses at peak pulse speeds compared to the same losses at constant speeds.

Graph the energy demand of a normal vehicle.

The graph will show huge variations in the power requirements, both positive and negative. Hydraulic accumulators are perfect for absorbing and releasing huge variations in positive and negative energy demand and they are maintenance free and last for the life of the vehicle.

If you eliminate idling of the engine as is done in all current hybrids, your power application basically falls into three categories.

Acceleration
Coasting
Deceleration

Sized properly an accumulator can provide you with all the acceleration you could ever want. The rate of acceleration is not really a factor with an accumulator. Fast or slow uses about the same amount of energy (not factoring other losses).

On deceleration consider the panic stop. We all face them when other drivers do stupid things. A Toyota Corolla will panic stop from 60 MPH with just over 20 revolutions of all 4 wheels. That is where you can recover your energy at percentages that no electric regeneration system will ever achieve. Currently with hydraulics it's is about 78%. I am hopeing my pump design will pass 80%, and I should know in a few months.

My design can change from acceleration to coasting to deceleration almost as fast as you can blink your eyes, and requires nothing more than a maximum stroke change of 1 inch in either drirection. The stroke position begins with the highest "gear' ratio (minimum displacement) and goes to lower ratios as it transitions from the neutral position in either direction. It would even regenerate energy at vehicle speeds of less than 1 MPH, even in reverse.

It requires no clutch, torque converter, or any other connection to the engine whatsoever. In fact it is not connected to the engine at all. True series hybrid, capable of a single charged accumulator acceleration event with out any engine in the vehicle.

This allows engines that consume fuel or motors that consume electricity to compete for the position of engine or motor on equal terms. Either would work just fine and you could have two separate power units instead of two separate vehicles.

As each power generating system is refined and improved regardless of who wins that competition, you have the rest of the vehicle not becoming obsolete. You can simply upgrade the power unit. Better batteries=more range, better IC engines equal the same.
Engine size changes the percentage of time required for regeneration, so you don't have to crawl up Pikes Peak when you reserves are depleted. Try climbing Pikes Peak in any electric hybrid.

Hydraulics offer the potential for hundreds of horsepower-seconds of energy to be applied in a matter of tens of seconds, which is exactly what is necessary for rapid acceleration and recovery of inertia.

Hypermilers use their brains to conserve inertia, sometimes to the point of increasing their personal risk to promote their objective.

That situation, in my opinion, is a product of deficiencies in the design of the vehicle. If we fix the vehicle, then that deficiency no longer exists.

regards
gary

Gary, part of the deficiency of the vehicle is an inability to "see" situations ahead. Until the vehicle can take preventative or corrective actions before encountering FE challenging environments I don't think it can be completely "fixed."

Do you happen to have diagrams of your system that we could view? I'm having trouble visualizing the proposed mechanical structures...

Gary, part of the deficiency of the vehicle is an inability to "see" situations ahead. Until the vehicle can take preventative or corrective actions before encountering FE challenging environments I don't think it can be completely "fixed."
Mike Dabrowski made the same point as a reason why MIMA offers MPG improvements: the human brain is a reasonably good computer for many purposes.

Assuming that it the brain is being applied to the problem at hand of course. For this reason, STM that the best solution is to have a system that operates automatically at a basal level but can be overridden for better results. This is one of the concerns I have with the way hybrid development is presently headed. Engineering to make hybrid systems idiot-proof makes it more difficult to get optimal results.

Going back to the OP, the weaker automakers have to change or they will go out of business. Yes change is painful and they may not survive even with changes. The real question is which path they need to take. Gas/electric hybrid technology has a 10-year track record through multiple models. A lot of work has been done on BEV's and that technology is progressing. Diesel technology is advancing too. If they are to go some other route they will have nothing to produce until that other tech, whatever it is, has been developed.

But research into other solutions should be continued at some level. After all, not exploring other options is how the automakers got into this mess in the first place.

Good Morning,

I split the thread as it had been completely hijacked.

Thanks Delta Flyer, my apologies for adding to your work load.

Probably the best article I have seen recently is posted 31 March 2009 on Green Car Congress. It is titled "Innas and NOAX show Hydraulic series Hybrid Drivetrain".

The basic fundamentals are the same (in my design), but my in wheel drive is rotary and no "transformer" is necessary.

They used the same vehicle with the same engine and cut fuel mileage in half, under identical testing situations.

You can also search GCC under the topic "hydraulic hybrid" for other developments.

In another thread on this forum there was a vigorous debate on the efficiency of regeneration in electric hybrids. Frankly some of the technical detail provided was somewhat over my head.

The EPA documents (google EPA hydraulic hybrid) listed regerative percentages as 20% electric and 70% hydraukic. That was a few years ago and the figures were at fairly slow rates of deceleration.

Thats not the real world, when you use specific situations that would tend to favor either design. The real world is idiots and panic stops, getting caught by the yellow light, plus many other situations where you can not avoid wasted inertia.

The operating principle of hypermiling is the conservation of linear inertia, and operation of the engine at highest effeciency.

I think we all understand when you do not have to deal with other drivers or traffic signals, you can improve your mileage significantly. Mine can vary by as much as 20 MPG depending on outside influences beyond my control, in particular just dumb things other drivers will always do that mess up your inertia. My daily 40 mile round trip includes between 40 and 50 traffic lights depending on which of 3 routes I choose. Without those obstacles I coud average 85 MPG, and rarely I approach that figure. In most cases it is significantly lower.

Lets look at some basic hypermiling strategies and compare the current non hybrid vehicle to a series hydraulic hybrid. I have always admired pale Melanasian's achievements in his 96 Honda Civic.

Pulse and glide:

Shift to the highest practical gear and maintain highest engine effeciency on acceleration. Coast with engine off from peak to minimum speed, repeat this process.

Huge gains in mileage are possible especially at lower average speeds. The downside is you are encountering higher overall sustained energy losses due to exponential increases in aero drag at your peak pulse speed, and it's a labor intensive effort that, to a certain degree, affects your exterior situational awareness. It also tends to create situations where you have other drivers acting like idiots when traffic is congested.

The series hydraulic hybrid maintains a constant speed while the engine cycles in exactly the same way as P&G, but you do not have to vary vehicle speed or suffer the losses of peak speed aero drag. You can easily blend with other traffic. In fact the series HH needs no throttle control or manifold vacuum, and could easily adopt HCCI engines at their present state of evolution.

The negative side is in cars like Pale's Civic the energy losses in the powertrain are minimal probably 10% or less in the powertrain alone.

If you can build a series hybrid with the same powertrain loss percentage, the same operational tactic becomes automatic, integral to the vehicles design itself. The driver can now focus on outside situational awareness and safety, potentially preempting a disaster created by another driver. With accumulators at 99% you need in wheel drives that exceed 95% for the powertrain loss to equal Pale's Civic, at 90%.

While the current EPA bent axis variable displacement pump-motor peaks at 93%, it's efficiency drops off dramatically at speeds over 1000 RPM. Since their design is running at the same speed as the propeller shaft, the losses at higher speeds are substantial.

This is why separate in wheel drives are better. At 1000 RPM of your wheels you would be going 70+ Mph with a 24 inch diameter tire-wheel combination.

Coasting with engine off;

In the hydraulic hybrid the engine does not care what the wheels are doing. It neither idles or operates in any poor effeciency range. The engine only pulses to add energy to the accumulator, regardless of the vehicle speed. This cycle duration can be very low when you are crawling at 5 MPH, and it would peak when you are climbing Pikes Peak, a situation that would kill any hybrids battery reserve and dramatically shorten the range of any pure electric vehicle. This requires no driver imput, the engine responds to accumulator pressure levels without any outside effort., similar to throttle by wire, it is cycle by pressure range.

Deceleration:

While there are a infinite number of deceleration situations, your objective is to recover every bit of the inertia you must loose without regeneration. In panic stops that may mean from 60-0 you have only 20 revolutions of all 4 wheels in which to accomplish energy recovery. With separate in wheel drives and 4 wheel integral ABS, you have the ability to maximize your regeneration. There are few if any electric hybrids that regenerate at all 4 wheels. The series hydraulic hybrid is so effective at 4 wheel regeneration that you can eliminate the conventional brakes altogether, with just a backup emergency brake required by law in case of total system failure. Each in wheel drive is independent of the others so you have quadruple redundancy in yoiur drive and brake systems, all in the same basic system, while eliminating conventional powertrains and brakes as well as any potential repair costs of those systems.

For mannufacturers the benefits are a significant reduction in parts per vehicle which equates to lower cost to manufacture. You don't need a large expensive battery or a powerful and expensive electric motor.

regards
gary

Thanks Delta Flyer, my apologies for adding to your work load.

Probably the best article I have seen recently is posted 31 March 2009 on Green Car Congress. It is titled "Innas and NOAX show Hydraulic series Hybrid Drivetrain".

Please provide a link to this article? (that way more of us will read it!)

Also, I think you are misstating the "situational awareness", aero drag, and "blending with traffic" aspects of P&G. Certainly P&G does not require keeping one's head down staring at the speedo and the LOD reading on the ScanGauge. If anything P&G (and hypermiling in general) increases one's external situational awareness of road, other traffic, lights, etc.

As for blending with traffic, P&G is not a rigid schedule: one varies its speed range and timing according to traffic (or no traffic) and terrain (pulsing to just before the top of a hill, losing a little speed over the crest, and then regaining it on the descent, for example). In effect, one uses a series of strategically placed "nudges" from the engine to move the car around. For example, I use five nudges to get the Insight from the edge of town into my carport, FAS-ing in between. I could probably do it in just three but then I would be well below the speed limit and would impede the traffic that I usually have to deal with.

As for aero drag, I think most of us avoid peak speeds where aero drag is a major issue. IOW, we're not pulsing to 65 or 70mph, probably more like 55 or 60, and of course most of the time the speeds are below the upper limit.

Keep in mind that collectively people here have put a lot of effort into figuring out methods that are #1 safe and #2 improve mpg in currently available vehicles. If they don't seem safe to you then absolutely do not use them until you are confident you can employ them without endangering yourself or others.

Gary,

You could search within CleanMPG for hydraulic.

As for aero drag, I think most of us avoid peak speeds where aero drag is a major issue. IOW, we're not pulsing to 65 or 70mph, probably more like 55 or 60, and of course most of the time the speeds are below the upper limit.

Keep in mind that collectively people here have put a lot of effort into figuring out methods that are #1 safe and #2 improve mpg in currently available vehicles. If they don't seem safe to you then absolutely do not use them until you are confident you can employ them without endangering yourself or others.

Just for the record I personally do pulse up to 70 depending on terrain and traffic because my car is unable to pulse below 53 MPH effectively. And to re-enforce the last paragraph, I do so safely, and if there is too much traffic I stick with DWL.

These figures are from the 2006 EPA documents on hydraulic hybrids. The vehicle is a class 2 b truck with a current gross weight of 9000 pounds.

Current vehicle gasoline engine:

Frontal area 3.7 square meters
Aero CD .47
Rolling resistance coefficient .01
Gross weight 9000 pounds
Engine efficiency city 20% highway 28%
Powertrain effeciency city 70% highway 79%
Regenerative efficiency 0%

EPA combined rating 12.8 MPG

The same payload vehicle after systematic improvements:

Frontal area 3,7 square meters
Aero CD .34
Rolling resistance coeffecient .006 (some due to lower gross weight)
Gross weight 7400 pounds (lighter empty vehicle with same payload)
Engine efficiency (Diesel) city 42% highway 42% (operating only at highest BSFC)
Drivetrain efficiency 85%
Regeneration efficiency 80%

EPA combined rating 58.1MPG (not a misprint)

While most of the inprovements are incremental, the most dramatic improvement is in powertrain regenerative efficiency, as well as pulse and glide application of the engine power to the accumulator.

This is for a hydraulic hybrid, and it is not possible for an electric hybrid, unless they can reach regenerative efficiencies of 80%, or almost a 300% improvement.

The EPA also stated that their design was not practial for small vehicles in 2006. Their mileage projection if the only modification was the hydraulic hybrid powertrain, with no other increnmental improvements.

36.5 MPG (all mileage figures are city and highway combined).

The complete document was close to 200 pages.

This comparison was:

Table 4.19. Efficiencies of diesel mechanical hybrid C;ass 2b trucks (small). It shows 11 stages of their projected evolution of the hydraulic hybrid truck.

They had built a demo Ford Explorer that averaged 40 MPG.

My focus for the last 5 years was on a design that allowed the same basic concept to be applied to much smaller vehicles. The in wheel drive is now generally recognized as the best strategy for smaller vehicles. Other options are replacing the differential with half shafts, which is really an intermediate evolution. I believe half shaft asre unnecessary because the units can weigh the same as the brakes.

In reviewing the 4 pages of topics relating the hydraulic hybrids on this forum (most of which I read years ago) the lack of responses was significant. When there were responses the primary concern was with hydraulic fluid leakage at high pressure conduits

My design is a wet pump, where a certain amount of leakage is part of the design. This serves to provide lubrication and cooling at a very small sacrifice in efficiency, probably less than 2 % combined. The only sealing required in the wheel motor is the low pressure circuit.

As I posted previously the design I am working on is compact enough to be installed on a bicycle, which when combined with aero improvements should provide a human powered hybrid that is capable of average speeds in excess of 40 MPH for about 10 miles, depending on the physical fitness of the driver.

In a bicycle you could also charge the accumulator by using the bicycle itself as an exercise machine and charging the accumulator while remaining stationary. This would allow your ride to begin with serveral hundred horspower seconds of reserve energy for acceleration bursts and pulse and glide to combine rider energy imput with accumulator energy imput to achieve peak speeds of 70+ MPH, in a human powered vehicle with no fuel consumption other than calories, which the population of the US has a large surplus.

Consider the possibilities if you wish. I would like to believe that the members here would find this fascinating. I know I did.

regards
gary

Sounds great. Get it on the streets!

Can anyone gives us a ballpark idea of how much energy can reasonably be stored in a one liter package?
Maybe in joules=one joule can raise about 3/4 lb one foot. Same as one watt for one second. Roughly 740 watts for one second is what a one hp motor can do-550 lbs raised one foot in one second.
I think a Prius can be pushed about 1 mile at 30 mph by 200 watt hrs or 200*3600=72,000watt-seconds or 720000 joules-I think. 54000 lbs raised one foot-more or less.

Give us energy storage per volume figures for Hydraulic hybrid-car sized or delivery truck sized. It sounds like a good idea for stoplight to stoplight travel-most of city driving.
Thanks,
Charlie

Please provide a link to this article? (that way more of us will read it!)

Also, I think you are misstating the "situational awareness", aero drag, and "blending with traffic" aspects of P&G. Certainly P&G does not require keeping one's head down staring at the speedo and the LOD reading on the ScanGauge. If anything P&G (and hypermiling in general) increases one's external situational awareness of road, other traffic, lights, etc.

As for blending with traffic, P&G is not a rigid schedule: one varies its speed range and timing according to traffic (or no traffic) and terrain (pulsing to just before the top of a hill, losing a little speed over the crest, and then regaining it on the descent, for example). In effect, one uses a series of strategically placed "nudges" from the engine to move the car around. For example, I use five nudges to get the Insight from the edge of town into my carport, FAS-ing in between. I could probably do it in just three but then I would be well below the speed limit and would impede the traffic that I usually have to deal with.

As for aero drag, I think most of us avoid peak speeds where aero drag is a major issue. IOW, we're not pulsing to 65 or 70mph, probably more like 55 or 60, and of course most of the time the speeds are below the upper limit.

Keep in mind that collectively people here have put a lot of effort into figuring out methods that are #1 safe and #2 improve mpg in currently available vehicles. If they don't seem safe to you then absolutely do not use them until you are confident you can employ them without endangering yourself or others.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/03/index.html

I pretty much don't ever go above 55 mph unless I'm going downhill on an interstate.

Can anyone gives us a ballpark idea of how much energy can reasonably be stored in a one liter package?
Maybe in joules=one joule can raise about 3/4 lb one foot. Same as one watt for one second. Roughly 740 watts for one second is what a one hp motor can do-550 lbs raised one foot in one second.
I think a Prius can be pushed about 1 mile at 30 mph by 200 watt hrs or 200*3600=72,000watt-seconds or 72000 joules-I think. 54000 lbs raised one foot-more or less.

Give us energy storage per volume figures for Hydraulic hybrid-car sized or delivery truck sized. It sounds like a good idea for stoplight to stoplight travel-most of city driving.
Thanks,
Charlie

I have seen energy calcualtions vary considerably. The last EPA document listed energy density as 50 kilowatt seconds per gallon, which works out to about 650 horsepower seconds per 10 gallons. That amount is available in a very short time span, above and beyond any engine power that could be applied additionally.

I am also not sure what pressure that calcualtion was based on in the accumulator, but higher pressures are directly proportional to lower volumes of fluid.

Lets say that 10 gallons and 650 horsepower seconds would be all you need to get to 70 MPh in a 2200 pound car. That same amount of energy would also propel you 7/10 mile with no additional engine imput. That is the amount of energy wasted in one 60-0 braking cycle, according to what I have read.

I am sure there are some better qualified than myself to make more precise calcualtions.

The real question is do you need long term (battery) or capacitive (accumulator) type of storage. Electrical vehicle advocates will say use a battery and a capacitor for short term energy bursts, and that will certainly work.

One point that also clouds the equasion is torque, which is the what gets you moving from rest. The in wheel hydraulic drive has the torque capacity to (if designed for this purpose) provide more torque that the tires traction limit. This happens the instant the hydraulic pressure is applied to the wheel.

Basically that means the rate of acceleration is not really relevant to the volume and pressure applied to the motors. The depletion of pressure reserves is a function of the number of revolutions the wheels must turn to get you up to speed. The acceleration begins from the highest charge state of the accumulator, when it is most necessary.
Since almost every acceleration begins after a braking event you have maximum energy for acceleration due to the braking event. Hypermilers avoid braking to conserve momentum, this conserves the same momentum by converting it to hydraulic pressure.
It is also why you can P&G the reserve instead of P&Ging the vehicle. In one case you use the accumulator the other you use the mass of the vehicle itself to store energy. Operationally the two principles accomplish the same thing, but the accumulator avoids speed variations and increased aero drag which to some extent offsets the losses in the hydraulic system.

Also the number of revolutions of the wheels when braking can be very low and not affect the amount of energy recovered (not considering other losses).

This means you can be forced to do a panic stop without significant differences in energy recovery. This is very different from electric hybrids where the battery can not accept the very high amounts of regenerative energy in a similar panic stop.

Think of the accumulator as a hydraulic capacitor. Eevn a pure electric vehicle could be configured to increase range by regenerating braking forces hydraulically.

Billions have been spent on battery and electric vehicle R&D, when the eventual electric vehicle replaces the IC car of today, it might still have hydraulic surge regeneration.

This could be accomplished with capacitors, if they ever become practical and of reasonable cost, as well as batteries for the same reasons.

The hydraulic configuration could be a transtional phase in the ultimate development of fuel cell or other electric configurations not yet discovered.

The difference is the hydraulic vehicle could be on the road and working in a very short time, and provide direct competition for both types in future development.

regards
gary

I'd also like to see some more article pointers and evidence
of real-life work. When someone spends so much time posting
about "my in-wheel motor design" to us peons down here, that
naturally tickles the skepticism meter in some of us who have
seen too many "new" claims about brown's-gas generators and the
like. Just look at the thread about EEStor over on Priuschat
for an example of how things can go...
.
Let us understand the possibilities along with you...
.
_H*

Message deleted by author.

regards
gary

Thanks for the info. My numbers were wrong earlier-correct them-sorry.
50,000 watt seconds per gallon or 500,000 watt seconds per 10 gallons=138 Whr per 10 gallons-roughly enough to push our Prius 3/4 mile at 30 mph, or enough to lift it about 100 feet straight up.

650*550=360,000 lb-ft enough to lift a Prius -3000 lbs-about 110 ft straight up or your 2200 lb car about 150+ feet straight up.

However you cut it, a cubic foot would have at least 100 Whr of energy-easily enough to push a 3000 lb car at 30 mph 1/2 mile or more.

A couple of cubic feet would be 200Whrs-or at least a mile at 30 mph.
I remember reading that the Volt was supposed to use just 165 WHr to go one mile at 65 mph.

Yes,a hydraulic/pneumatic system could be pretty compact/simple with enough energy to boost an average car to the 35 mph speed limit for city P&G.
It is a good idea-seems better than our expensive ,complicated Prius. There must be some "problem" that is holding them back.

What is the "catch" here.Sounds like a great idea?
Thanks,
Charlie
PS-Sorry about all the number scribbling.I have to talk my way thru the numbers to really see what is happening.

Once again, Gary, thanks for stopping by clean mpg .com with more of the information this country hungers for. It seems to me from your description that a hybrid utilizing an IC, a regenerative battery / capacitor system and a hydraulic accumulator system working together at what each does best is a knockout formula to get us off the nasty habit we are on and get us a little hot roddin to boot!

And I have to tip my hat to your pop who drilled into your head that the problem is invariably with the system and not the people running it. Until we start fixing our system so as to prevent Bernie Madoff knock offs from destroying our country, in the name of their "capitalistic right", our poor land will be plagued with more of the same.

But let me ask you a question, Gary. You are in this field up to your ears. Do you know of any company, research grant, or corporation that is seriously working on a prototype passenger car that would incorporate these elements (IC, battery/ capicator regeneration & hydraulic accumulation) into a MEGA HYBRID? It would seem to me that someone with some money to burn would see the potential in this and good old American ingenuity would be funded to deliver us from the clutches of the OPEC dealers.

It seems to me that this is the natural evolution of the "hybrid".

Thanks again, Gary!

Bob.

I'll try to be brief :eek:.

Using Roberts calcualtion 150 feet of elevation would consume all your stored energy.
Since most Interstate grades are limited to 7%, that would equal 100/7X100 feet per second. Thats about 61.7 MPh. In my experience on those types of grades (downhill) my VX (not great aero) would coast up to something like 80MPH without drafting. That tells me you are not using all the energy potential just to maintain a speed. Maintaining a speed,say 65 MPH, would probably require a 5% grade downhill, or about 2000 feet.

How far could you coast from a 150 foot elevation on an otherwise consistent grade. The grade would affect your speed, conversely your distance.

I have tried to get some HP calcualtions to maintain speed. It seems like the proper figures are.

I HP at 30 MPH
7HP at 55 MPH
12 HP at 65 MPH

http://privatenrg.com/#Bill_Moores

These figures seem to be consistent for a vehicle with the aero and rolling resistance of the Prius. The info is from another Prius forum., plus two other sites that all were very close to the same amounts.

If I was smart enough to link y'all to the reference site I would, but I am a dummy. One of the best I read was titled "private nrg".

But for the sake of discussion you could divide the above power necessary, understanding the pump is very efficient.

I could be all wrong with this and would appreciate any correction. Assuming your power transfer was 90% (realistic) accumulator to wheel motor, then you would have 90% of 650HP to the wheel. Divide that by the above listed power loss of 1,7,12 HP at the different speeds and you get.

595 seconds at 30 MPH=595 seconds
595/7 seconds at 55 MPH=85 seconds
595/12 seconds at 65 MPH=50 seconds (rounded off slightly)

I know these figures differ significantly from Roberts.

In the link provided by DF earlier, the thread at GCC stated that in the European cycle, the engine on operation was 11% of the time the vehicle was in motion, with 50% of the fuel consumption of the same diesel car with a conventional drivetrain.

regards
gary

Gary, you only have to copy what is in the URL bar at the top of your browser when you are on the page you want to link to, then paste it into the message box here for your post.

If I was smart enough to link y'all to the reference site I would, but I am a dummy. One of the best I read was titled "private nrg".I would not go that far.

In fact, I see no reason you can't Google your sources, swipe the URL, then paste it after clicking the link icon or something like that. Whatever your refusal to do links, it's not stupidity, although you're badly discrediting yourself by doing this. What puzzles me more is this is not a snake oil topic - no need to run when asked numerous times for links out of courtesy of our members. If you have credentials in hydraulic hybrids, linking is a cakewalk.

If someone is going to make authoritative posts, it needs to be backed up. Give us the proof...why is that asking too much?

Wayne and others have to prove hypermiling - our say so won't cut it.

Hi RIDE:

___Welcome to CleanMPG and sorry I did not catch this thread until today...

___When the EPA’s Charles Gray was driving around in the shell of a Taurus with a Hydraulic hybrid system back in the 90’s, I do not believe any of his claims were completed across a full weight Taurus running the gambit of test cycles available to him while pulling the claimed 80 mpg. He was working his @$$ off to tell the world but there is something about hydraulic systems we have spoken about here at CleanMPG more than a few times in the past.

___Working in the Nuclear industry, the problem I experienced with HP hydraulic accumulators (we had quite a few for Feed water and Steam system(s) control) is they leak over time. It did not matter how much you spend on Nuclear Grade fittings and seals, they will leak and this was in a stationary 24/7 system that in some cases did little other than holding system pressure up for a set period of time on the rare case there was a SCRAM. Other systems were active control but a NUKE was set to run base loaded and little pressure delta’s were ever experienced compared to those in a Hydraulic hybrid. Temps were relatively stable in the 100 – 120 degree range over an entire 2-year fuel cycle and we spent hours a week to clean up the leaks! When one of the seals let loose, it was a hell of a mess even if the pressure drop was caught before a SCRAM occurred. Been there, done that with literally tens of gallons of EHC fluid spread over three floors of the turbine building at one plant :(

___Where are the small leaks going to go let alone the big ones? On your garage floor? Into a separate tank with funnels under every connection that needs to be drained off every few months? How about make-up? Yet another tank and pump to draw off a small reservoir pressed up for injection into the sealed main system when at its lowest pressure? And a vehicle running from – 30 to 130 degrees F and the inordinate amount of NVH is going to be a nightmare to seal and keep sealed.

___Now we can talk real world practicality. There are few patents other than Grays from way back and IIRC, he was willing to share the EPA’s IP for pennies. So what happened? UPS has had their EPA IP/Eaton based Diesel engines Hydraulic Hybrid running for some time and the improvements in fuel economy are reported to be only 30 to 50%. This is very similar to that of a Two-Mode or Eaton’s other Electronic solutions. Where is that extra 50 + % you are speaking about? 50 + mpg on small trucks? On the highway is where aero effects take out the ability to P&G as effectively let alone a small ICE’s inability to charge the empty accumulator to 100% in just 1/10th the running time that a steady state system would in the same vehicle with an appropriate sized engine.

___I applaud your hydraulic hybrid efforts but you are speaking of Hypermiling when I have not yet seen any of your own results? You have most of the ideas right but again, without the ability to prove their worth, you do not realize the art within the science and I suspect you will never achieve the numbers (theoretical or otherwise) on an empty road or one loaded with NY, Chicago or LA traffic.

___As Al (Hobbit) has called out, we have discussed EEStor more times than we care to count. We have actively searched out the APS’ of the world to find out how there IP is for sale to the highest bidder and they were simply using SuperCaps as a buffer between large Li-Ion’s and MG’s. With big enough Li-Ion's, you can do anything yet they have gone nowhere. Eaton’s Hydraulic system is approaching that of an electronic hybrid but with all the mess of high pressure hydraulics. Until you have something on the road, all the theoretical work in the lab is just that. A science project and we have had our fill...

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A "science Project"? Big Li-Ions have gone nowhere? High pressure hydraulics have no relevance here because they are a mess and leak? Gary, until you come up with results you are not a hypermiler and we hypermilers predict you will never be able to prove your worth in the real world? Besides, we have found your numbers false ("Where is that extra 50 + % you are speaking about")?

Well, I guess the jury is in and you Gary are wasting your time and they don't feel there is much hope your theories will ever amount to much. Your theory leaks, Gary and it is way too messy!!

We have discussed theoretical hypermiling more times than we care to count and we have had our fill... .

Gary, let me ask you again. Do you know of any company, research grant, or corporation that is seriously working on a prototype passenger car that would incorporate these elements (IC, battery/ capicator regeneration & hydraulic accumulation) into a MEGA HYBRID?

I think hydraulic accumulators have a very real part to play in the future of transportation in this country and I celebrate your tenacity in pursuing it!

Bob.

Here is one publication:

Mechanical Engineering: Input / Output Capstone and an Inventor's Dream (http://memagazine.asme.org/Articles/2008/August/Input_Output.cfm)

Green Car Congress (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/05/concept_modifie.html)

http://www.innas.com/Assets/files/Hydrid%20brochure.pdf

http://www.artemisip.com/

http://www.valentintechnologies.com/default.asp

Hi Robert:
A "science Project"? High pressure hydraulics have no relevance here because they are a mess and leak?
___Your inexperience is showing here.
Big Li-Ions have gone nowhere?
___Ever used a DeWalt cordless tool, cel phone or laptop? Not exactly nowhere?
Gary, until you come up with results you are not a hypermiler and we hypermilers predict you will never be able to prove your worth in the real world?
___Are you a 50 + percenter or are you just talking aloud?
Well, I guess the jury is in and you Gary are wasting your time and they don't feel there is much hope your theories will ever amount to much. Your theory leaks, Gary and it is way too messy!!
___Your inexperience is showing here too.
We have discussed theoretical hypermiling more times than we care to count and we have had our fill.
___Non-hypermilers discuss what they do not know. We on the other hand talk what we achieve every time the key is turned.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Ride:

___Here is Eaton’s system on UPS’ Hydraulic hybrid...

UPS First In Industry to Purchase Hydraulic Hybrid Vehicles. (http://www.pressroom.ups.com/mediakits/factsheet/0,2305,1315,00.html)
The partners conducted an 18-month evaluation of the vehicle’s performance and emissions on a UPS delivery route in the Detroit, Michigan area. Results showed that the EPA’s patented hydraulic hybrid diesel technology achieved a 45- to 50-percent improvement in fuel economy and a 30 percent reduction in CO2 emissions compared with traditional diesel-powered vehicles.

___A real world HHV with 30% reduction in CO2 emissions... Is it any wonder why Toyota, GM, Ford, Nissan, Chrysler and Mitsubishi are staying away from them for our personal transportation needs? Think of those seals and std. HEV percentages and you have the answer... Cost wise there is an advantage but not at the expense of oil on the drive or in the garage.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne- If you like I will see if I can find out what the actual improvement on the UPS HHVs. I can't promise I can actually find out, but I will ask a few of the managers at work.

I tried to find out what the UPS trucks got for mileage and it seems like its a secret.

Fed-ex uses a lot of Dodge Sprinters, which is basically a Mercedes 3.5 liter turbodiesel. I have been told that they get awfully good mileage by some of the drivers, low to mid 20's. The Tech group based their design on the Sprinter, and projected 35 HP and 380 LBS-feet of torque per wheel/

My guess would be the UPS trucks get better than you would think, and the drivers are trained to get max mileage. 20 MPG wouldnt surprise me, without the hybrid powertrain. If that is confirmed then increasing that by 50% would be significant.

One potential option for any leakage would be to use water as your hydraulic fluid. I know there are biodegradable hydraulic fluids. Parker Hannefin has a hydraulic bicycle contest for university students, where one of the rules is the fluid must be biodegradable.

Leakage was one of my concerns with the in wheel drive. The wet pump is designed to surround the high pressure circuit with the low pressure circuit so any high pressure leakage would migrate to the low pressure circuit.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parker+chainless+challenge&rlz=1W1ADBR_en&aq=0&oq=parker+chainlesse biodregadable.

regards
gary

UPS drivers are in fact not trained to get the max mileage. At least not in the conventional trucks. I can't say on the HHVs. I may be able to find out since I do work at UPS, although we do not have any of the HHVs at the hub I work at. One driver I spoke to said he drives 100+ miles a day, that is with about 70 (rough guess, can't remember the exact number he said) drop-offs/pick-ups. I doubt you could get 20 MPG in a package car with stopping every few miles. But, I have been wrong in the past.

The drivers around here are "pedal to the metal". They pull in and stop (quickly). Run to the door, run back to the truck, punch it and blast off.


UPS drivers are in fact not trained to get the max mileage. At least not in the conventional trucks. I can't say on the HHVs. I may be able to find out since I do work at UPS, although we do not have any of the HHVs at the hub I work at. One driver I spoke to said he drives 100+ miles a day, that is with about 70 (rough guess, can't remember the exact number he said) drop-offs/pick-ups. I doubt you could get 20 MPG in a package car with stopping every few miles. But, I have been wrong in the past.

Here are a couple of pics that Gary sent of his Honda Insight FCD:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/591/gg2.JPGhttp://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/591/gg1.JPG

___Are you a 50 + percenter or are you just talking aloud?





Hi Wayne;

I am not quite sure what I am, but I am sure that hypermiling our current cars is only a stop gap measure. Weather we get 50% or 20% or 75% is not the problem or solution. Detroit and the oil industry have for decades successfully and unethically perpetuated their product and excluded all other approaches. They continue to do this today. This has to stop.

Now here is an idea that could get us 130 MPG. I agree with you that I am quite naive and inexperienced especially in hydraulics and that I should really shut up, for my petticoat is showing. I have not experienced hydraulic fluid all over the floor or a battery blow up on me. But I would like to humbly suggest that what Gary is talking about here seems to be a way out. I see a half full glass and I would like to dream that one day someone like Gary will be able to work it out so that we will not have to send Americans off to die and so we will not have to give our country to the Arabs to pay for our addiction.

I guess I am sort of a philosophical hypermiler and I hope you can accept me. I think we both are searching for the same pot of gold! :o

Bob

Hi Bob:

___No problem. An HHV needs an energy source and currently that means ICE's with regenerative or pulse re-pressurizations. That is the wrong solution even if it gives us 50% better FE like the std. HEV's do today. The pie in the sky stuff about 75 or 80% is for all intents and purposes, ridiculous. A BEV can get there but not an ICE of any sort.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Robert,

All Wayne is asking is to look at tech like hydraulic hybrids to see if it has merit first - not just say "Amen". It may or may not help...need more research.

An example of bad tech that has been blindly accepted by many is ethanol.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/raptr-20090604.html#more

60% efficiency in an IC engine changes the whole game.

Free piston direct to hydraulic engine-pumps are estimated to be 58% efficient.

The VW 1 liter car gets 235 MPG.

Batteries have made significant advancements, without a doubt. Has their energy density, cycle duration, and cost, reached the point where they are the absolute winner?

Infinitely Variable, in wheel drives, have a place in either system. IC, battery, fuel cell, steam, gas, diesel, electric. The powertrain will have to recover inertial losses beyond the present capability of the latest hybrid configurations.

regards
gary

A hypothetical scenario:

In the next year the perfect battery is discovered. Cars are vritually tansformed to all electric power storage. Range is over 200 miles, battery pack weight is less than 20% of the total vehicle weight. Regeneration efficiencies are tripled, approaching 85%. Battery life expectancies are measured in decades, outlasting the vehicles themsleves. Cost of battery packs makes vehicles directly cost competitive with conventional IC compact cars today. The choice to consumers is obvious, the future is the battery electric vehicle.
__________________________________________________________________________

The most dramatic transformation in the history of our transportation industry occurs almost overnight. Of course at max capacity it will take 8 years to replace the current vehicle population, assuming retooling of the entire industry can take place in, say 24 months, as it was in WW2 (very optomistic!)
_________________________________________________________________________

Factories are converted to PEV vehicles en masse, and production begins at a rate of 12million per year, and rapidly increases to 15 million a year or more.
_________________________________________________________________________

The used car market collapses, gasoline tax revenues drop by 20% a year as people junk their IC cars, since they are worth no more than their recoverable materials, which causes the recycling industry to also collapse. Roads crumble as government struggles to increase revenues from other sources.
_________________________________________________________________________

Utilities are overwhelmed by the increases in electrical demand as to generating and power systems are forced to engage in a massive capital expenditure to increase the electrical power supply by double digit numbers of gigawatts.

Efforts to clean up the power generating system create further losses in power generation capacity due to environmental costs. Electrical Utility rates skyrocket due to the mega billions of essential new investment in only clean generation of power.

Recharging batteries means demand for overnight charging places loads on the system that would be in the range of 130 million vehicles requiring 50 to 100 Kilowatts of electricity every night.

The oil economy collapses, millions of lost jobs, retirement funds follow the same scenario.

I just wanted to see if this scenario has actually been contemplated for a time period of 15 years and someone with much more knowledge than I of the potential for the electric power generating infrastructure to actually be able to handle the transformation.

regards
gary

I've been catching up and chasing several of the references given,
but also been busy with other stuff. Good interesting reads,
albeit a bit of blue-sky between the lines in some of it.
.
So RIDE, presumably you're Gary Greenwell? Why didn't you just
say so in the first place and point to the ASME article in the
first place? That might have clarified where you're coming from
quite a bit up front and eliminated the "okay, who is this guy"
discussion.
.
Now, a question about those bent-axis swashplate machines. How
do they get around the extremely disadvantageous force vectors,
where it looks like piston pressure has to be "wedged" substantially
sideways to generate torque, or am I just misunderstanding the
drawings? What type of machine is your proposed in-wheel?
.
_H*

I agree with your force vector of bent axis pumps concerns precisely.

I emailed Mike S, one of your moderators pictures of my model, with permission to post those pictures on this forum, until I can crawl through the process of learning how to do so myself. Not the most competent CPU person here. Right Lane Cruiser helped me to post my first link to anything to a forum in my life. I know that may seem odd, but it is the truth.

The model pictured in the Mech Engineering journal article shows the elimination of the swash plate issue in axial piston swash plate alternatives. With displacement changes occuring over the center of the rotational axis of the hub, you are not fighting centrifugal forces to the ectent you would be if the displacement changes occured at the perimeter.

This minimizes losses in the return ciircuit.

Making the pump wet, where all possible high pressure leakage points are contained within the low pressure return circuit, means only a single seal is necessary between the rotating drum that contains the cylinders, and the fixed axle. This is just like a conventional axle seal. Allowing a very small amount of leakage between the unsealed cylinders and pistons provides low pressure lubrication as well as circulation for any necessary cooling at the source of the heat, much the same as radiant cooling of friction brakes, although heat losses would be minimal. It would also be completely waterproof, even submergible without any effect on the braking ability.

The INNAX and NOAS Green Car Congress article (referenced earlier) is probably the closest to my design. Mine does not require the "transformers" of the INNAX system becasue the pressure delivery is controlled by the movement of the shaft, through which the hydraulic fluid passes to the cylinders. Their design is a fixed displacement while mine is an Infinitely Variable Wheel Motor. The dead zone at tdc (top dead center) and bdc (bottom dead center) is where fluid delivery and return are eliminated in the neutral (no stroke-no displacement) position, where the assembly freewheels in the same way a normal wheel over axle freewheels.

Another disadvantage of axial piston designs is they require fairly high low pressure fluid pressures because they are still reciprocating pumps. My design is a true rotary pump which will purge itself of any air pockets using centrifugal force to its advantage. The stroke to wheel surface distance travelled ratio is about 8 to 1. By this I mean 2 inches of stroke of the cylinders means the surface of the rim would travel about 16 inches. That basically means at 3000 PSI, the torque on the outer rim will be about 1/8th of that same force or about 375 pounds feet per wheel, available almost instantly.

Thanks for your interest hobbitt. My vision is a lightweight and inexpensive alternative vehicle configuration, and it could be on the road very quickly. The first ever functional prototype will be operational within a couple of weeks.

It will not have the adjustable displacement feature, but it will be able to demonstrate the efficiency of the design for the first time. A simple wheeled cart (probably 3 wheels) that can be pushed in one direction to load up pressure in the accumulator and them released to see how far it returns to the original point, will give me real efficiency numbers. I am hoping to see at least 90% wheel back to wheel. This will give me a demonstration vehicle that I can take to car shows or show potential investors, who want the "how good is it" question answered.

The second prototype will be used in a bike, where you charge the accumulator by elevating the drive wheel and pedalling for several minutes. Reducing the stroke position will allow you to get pretty darn high accumulator pressures. Picture 5 minutes of vigorous pedalling energy stored for application in seconds. Now you can pulse an aerodunamic bike to a very high speed and glide (with good aero) while pedalling continuously. I hope to see it average over 40 MPH for several miles distance with the combination of intitial storage as well as replenishment.

With no other source of power besides human it will clearly show there is potential, and you could add a battery and electric motor, or an IC engine for longer distances.

regards
gary

Gary, I'm curious... I can see how your precharging could get you an initial heavy acceleration and thus a high speed, but I don't see how the device really helps to maintain higher speeds from an energy standpoint?

Basically, your average cyclist would probably top out somewhere around 25mph on a bike. 5min of pedaling at this rate would get them about 2mi. The energy to move the combination of rider and bike that distance is fixed, and dependent upon aero drag. Reducing aero drag would allow the cyclist to use less energy to cover the distance, but just as in a car higher speeds will incur more of an energy penalty. With a more aerodynamic bike you'll be able to help them attain a higher initial speed (but shorter distance) than they would just pedaling unassisted, but they won't be able to maintain it.

What I'm getting at here is that it appears to me that if someone on a bike equipped the way you posit can average 40mph, they can do it on the same bike without an accumulator. Is there something I'm missing here?

This is separate from considerations of an ICE P&G regimen because in that case the engine is actually more efficient under load...

RLC I don't think you are missing anything.

The additional energy reserve plus regenerative capability would allow you to sustain a higher overall average speed, as well as recover energy lost in braking.

The question is would pulse and glide allow higher average speeds, considering you started with more energy, including what you could add?

Now, as far as the bicycle itself. Aerodynamically a bicycle loses 90% of its intertia fighting aero drag at 30 MPH. The question is can you pulse to higher speeds and add enough energy to the system to maintain a higher overall speed than through a conventional chain drive. Aero also means weatherproofing for all season transportation.

Considering you would be starting with a 5-10 minute energy accumulation. Say 1/4 hp for 300 seconds. That's 75-150 HP seconds, a lot of power to apply to any bicycle unless it was specially reinforced to handle that kind of power. If your ride was 5 minutes you would have twice the sustained power to be applied.

The EV1 battery pack weight was 1000 pounds (lead acid) about 1/3 of the total vehicle weight. NiMH was less but still a fairly large percentage of total vehicle weight.

The Parker Hannefin Chainless Challenge (previously linked) allows the contestants to start with a fully charged accumulator.

This may make you laugh but consider the situation. When I was a kid we used to catch wild ducks with a crab net. We would chase them with a jon boat. They took off, went about 100 yards and landed. We kept chasing them. After three takeoffs they were so exhausted they could not get off the ground. When they went underwater I scooped them up with the net. The point is animal flight also has to deal with the high cost of initial flight. A Duck once airborne can fly for hours and hundreds of miles without rest compared to the exhaustion of 4 takeoffs.

The human powered airplane Gossamer Penguin was the last of the Gossamer series. The first one Condor won the first Kremer Prize for human powered flight, a figure 8 course of 1 mile (or kilometer can't remember it wa in the 60s). The second was the Albatross, which flew the English Channel a few years later, almost 20 miles.

Both the Condor and Albatross never got out of ground effect, below 20 feet altitude the proximity to the ground gives the wing additional lift, so it can be argued they are not true airplanes.

The third plane was a true airplane. The Penquin flew the route of the Greek mythological Icarus, whose father Daedalus made him wings out of feathers and wax.

That route was 42 miles. I think the pilots name was Brian Allen. Paul Macready built the planes. The Penguin was capable of actually gaining altitude and gliding, allowing the pilot to take a short break from his sustained almost 1/2 hp effort.

Thats pulse and glide.

The Ducks were pulse and glide, takeoffs are like accelerating from a light, altitude is energy stored just like inertia in a car.

Powered motor gliders do the same thing they pulse up a mile and glide 40 miles without thermal assistance.

This is my logic with a hydraulic hybrid human powered bicycle. Use it for an exercise machine, accumulating power for the pulse. The additional mass of the vehicle will cost you more energy to pulse, but it will also retain energy longer in the glide. In ballistics it's called sectional density, the heavier bullet retains its energy longer, because it has greater mass for the same frontal area and aero CD.

In conclusion (bet ya couldn't wait ;)), I am thinking that becasue you could sit on the bike and store energy for a considerable amount of time (stationary), if that time was the same amount as your commute, you would have double the energy for the commute. Energy management, in the same way as hypermilers extract more distance or speed, from the same amount of total energy, should allow greater distances to be covered at speeds that would allow you to better blend into existing traffic. Bursts of energy would allow you to commute on 45 MPH roads in traffic like any other motor vehicle.

Interstates are illegal for HPV's.

Does that make sense?

This is not a snide remark, but I did notice when Wayne was hypermiling the Fusion, his average speed on one segment was 22 MPH. My thought at the time was if you are only averaging 22 MPH, then get rid of the engine or motor altogether.

Please don't read into this comment that it is any kind of critical or smart arse statement. Most of my local drives average 40 MPH.

Most of us could use a little exercise anyway, so why not put it to good use and leave the car at home. Extending our human powered range would be a game changer as well. If we are going to consider short range electric vehicles then this option should also be placed in that equasion. A 20 mile commute at 40 MPH average would require a 40 minute workout and a larger accumulator, but that might be the extreeme distance to average 40 MPH, not sure. It would definitely depend on the drivers physical condition.

If your commute was a little too far then add some battery and electric motor power if necessary., or a small IC engine. Then it would be a motorcycle with all the additional costs involved.

regards
gary

Storing enough to cover the trip beforehand will certainly give you the ability to travel at a higher rate of speed -- but as you pointed out, the mass of the cycle isn't the limiting factor for sustained high speed. The cyclist would have a harder time reaching top speed if acceleration was fast (as is the case with your duck analogy), but a slow ramp up to speed shouldn't be anywhere near as taxing if the aerodynamics allow reasonable energy output at the targeted cruising speed. Those poor ducks never had such an option!

I understand what you mean about 22mph seeming low, but if you have a ScanGauge checkout your average speed during a city run full of stop and go. My own average for a 22mi commute (each way) ends up being right around 20.3mph because of the large number of stop lights, stop signs, rail road crossings, school crossings, and vehicles on the road causing congestion. Top speed for the trip is typically around 39mph most days (yes, that's below the posted speed limits but I choose my routes carefully and usually drive on multilane roads when the limits are higher than 35mph). I'd consider riding a bike to work but the real limiting factor (for safety) is the maximum speed of traffic... not the average.

Remember, if you previously store the same amount you could add during the trip, Your sustained total average output capacity would be twice as much, as would be possible without energy storage.

To this add the ability to regenerate and use that regeneration for reacceleration. Your pedaling power would remain constant regardless of the grade, rate of acceleration or regeneration.

Its very much the principle of the hydraulic shock absorber, which works in the vertical. The IVT accumulator drive works in the horizontal.

This is why I think it would be possible to average 40 MPH. The distance you could maintain that double power sustained average would depend on the size of the accumulator.

With a infinitely variable displacement rotary pump-motor you reduce the displacement as accumulator pressures rise so your volume of fluid would drop as the pressure rises, while your work load remains identical at any pressure level. Thats the beauty of the IVT pump motor.

Use the frame for the accumulator.

Call it the hyperbike ;).

regards
gary

Hi Gary:

___I still cannot wait for the way you solved the HP to LP seal problem... You are not just bleeding to a LP accumulator or storage tank but you are sealing from the hub or wheel to the HP side of the system and therein lyes a problem I have not seen you discuss the solution for. Do you have a working prototype on the road or are you still just contemplating. My experience in the power industry shows stationary HP hydraulic systems leak and this is with nuclear grade components. Add temperature and NVH effects on the road and no matter how tight the tolerance, there is going to be separation and leaks where it matters most. That is where that hub/wheel meets the Pump system.

___Regarding Power and Energy density of Li-Ion's, A123's latest are pushing 5.3 Kw/Kg and .16 kWh/kg. A Hydraulic Hybrid will never be able to store that kind of energy in something the size of a car. Its only hope is to use regenerative braking to approach what a SuperCap is worth let alone the latest Li-Ion’s. We all know maximizing range has little to do with regenerative braking but on the EPA test cycles with their stop and start cycles, a Hydraulic is barely matching that of a std. Hybrid so where is the beef?

___Additionally, 40kWh w/ 75% usable allows 120 miles AER at a very conservative .25kWh/mile and weighs < 25% of the car it will be propelling. This is 2010, not 2037... 120 miles range from an HHV? I cannot wait to see how that is going to be accomplished within something as small as a car's chassis.

___I also now know you have no idea what your average speed is or you would have posted it. 40 mph over a 40-mile commute? Maybe in MT but in Chicago, NY, LA or Miami, that is wishful thinking at best. I suggest you review the EPA test cycles for average speeds that every roadworthy vehicle let alone present and future Hybrid solutions will be tested. Even the latest High speed 80 mph blast let alone regular highway test have an average speed of just 48 mph. Add the (3) city based cycles in warm, cold and comfortable ambient with 20 – 22 mph average speeds where a hybrids regenerative braking would help and you have your answer.

___When you have one of your HHVs on the road, than you have some posting to do. As for now, you are doing nothing but spreading fairy dust from my POV. Or you are a brilliant engineer that is far smarter and ingenious than all of the guys at Eaton that have actually placed the UPS trucks on the road as just one example...

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Gary:

___I still cannot wait for the way you solved the HP to LP seal problem... You are not just bleeding to a LP accumulator or storage tank but you are sealing from the hub or wheel to the HP side of the system and therein lyes a problem I have not seen you discuss the solution for. Do you have a working prototype on the road or are you still just contemplating. My experience in the power industry shows stationary HP hydraulic systems leak and this is with nuclear grade components. Add temperature and NVH effects on the road and no matter how tight the tolerance, there is going to be separation and leaks where it matters most. That is where that hub/wheel meets the Pump system.

My method was very similar to the INNAX and NOAS design previously linked at the Green Car Congress site. The ball head piston in cup design is a controlled leak from HP to LP within a sealed unit, that provides lubrication and cooling.

http://www.innas.com/Assets/files/Hydrid%20brochure.pdf

___Regarding Power and Energy density of Li-Ion's, A123's latest are pushing 5.3 Kw/Kg and .16 kWh/kg. A Hydraulic Hybrid will never be able to store that kind of energy in something the size of a car. Its only hope is to use regenerative braking to approach what a SuperCap is worth let alone the latest Li-Ion’s. We all know maximizing range has little to do with regenerative braking but on the EPA test cycles with their stop and start cycles, a Hydraulic is barely matching that of a std. Hybrid so where is the beef?

Compare the regenerative efficiency of electric and hydraulic. Hydraulic is at least twice as good as electric. If you wish to see links I can provide them, just let me know.
The document I have listed lower than 30% for electric and 70% for hydraulic. In downtown Chicago I would imagine traffic is a nightmare? Do you actually drive through downtown in your daily commute? It's not that I have anything against primary electric drive, except when it comes to regeneration. Are we talking about a 30-50 thousand electric car? I am talking about a $15,000 or less simple HHV. Will the batteries last for 10 years? Every convenience store I drive by puts out kitty kitter in the parking lot to soak up the leaks from todays cars, so they won't get sued by a slip and fall victim. Options would be water as a hydraulic fluid, or biodegradable hydraulic fluids.

Jesus, even the article in this forum today by shows Toyota says "not yet" for all electric cars, not even considering the up front costs, which will be much greater than a simple Corolla. California wants the batteries to last 15 years.

___Additionally, 40kWh w/ 75% usable allows 120 miles AER at a very conservative .25kWh/mile and weighs < 25% of the car it will be propelling. This is 2010, not 2037... 120 miles range from an HHV? I cannot wait to see how that is going to be accomplished within something as small as a car's chassis.

HHV is and will never be the principal energy source, and neither will electricity, or hydrogen. Hydraulics are inertial dampners that accomodate the extreemes of positive and negative energy requirements in vehicle operation. That applies to any vehicle regardless of what the fuel tank contains. You aren't going to be carrying a nuclear power plant in your tank any time soon.

___I also now know you have no idea what your average speed is or you would have posted it. 40 mph over a 40-mile commute? Maybe in MT but in Chicago, NY, LA or Miami, that is wishful thinking at best. I suggest you review the EPA test cycles for average speeds that every roadworthy vehicle let alone present and future Hybrid solutions will be tested. Even the latest High speed 80 mph blast let alone regular highway test have an average speed of just 48 mph. Add the (3) city based cycles in warm, cold and comfortable ambient with 20 – 22 mph average speeds where a hybrids regenerative braking would help and you have your answer.

If you think that is the case then I will give you the exact mileage, time and distances tomorrow, every light, route, speed limit on each route, starting time and finishing time. Of course you have to believe my information is correct, but you could confirm it with google earth to a certain degree. It akes 30 minutes to travel 20 miles. That's 40 MPH.
I have driven the same roads here in a 59 Corvette almost 40 years ago, and a bicycle before that. I don't understand the point of the statement anyway. What would your response to me be if I made a similar statement about something you posted as fact. Maybe it's time for me to leave.

___When you have one of your HHVs on the road, than you have some posting to do. As for now, you are doing nothing but spreading fairy dust from my POV. Or you are a brilliant engineer that is far smarter and ingenious than all of the guys at Eaton that have actually placed the UPS trucks on the road as just one example....

Two severe extremes. I must fall into either category. I must produce a practical vehicle that passes every Federally mandated requirement in order to satisfy your requirements.

Do you accept the same demand from me?

Do I have a dream (for now), you damn right. Has it passed the review of people better qualified than myself? Would you like me to list some of the credentials of a number of people who have hundreds of years of real experience, but do not share your view?

Whats in it for me my friend? Your acceptance of my idea when it is obvious that will probably never happen?

What am I really missing in this response?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. In 10 years we will see who is right.

regards
gary

Hi Gary:

___I thought you were working on one for market yourself? 10 years? With The Eaton UPS drive the only real commercial unit and already over a Million Toyota HEVs on the road in the consumers hands, I guess you might be waiting a bit longer than 10-years... PHEVs and BEV's are on the market today. See the iMiEV release the other day let alone GM's Volt (if it survives), Toyota's 2010 PHEVs in late 2010, Ford's OEM Focus and Transit Connect. Where are the HHV's?

___Good Luck and it has been a very entertaining experience indeed :)

___Wayne

Wayne:

The 10 year figure will allow time for both systems to evolve to a certain level of effectiveness. In many places on this planet the electric vehicle option is not financially possible, especially in underdeveloped countries.

Parllel development of competing technologies makes both evolutions leaner, meaner and more cost competitive, as well as enhancing developemnt of both.

My thresholds for marketability are to prove the wheel to wheel efficiency (in a matter of months), and have the design finish the patent process in the same time frame. When those two thresholds are met, then capital will begin to flow.

The first generation will be a launch assist for small FWD cars, using the rear wheels. This was recommended to me by Ryan Waddington of Next Energy in Detroit, in 2006, when we had a meeting there.

The next generation is a series hybrid like the INNAX design.

I can convert any FWD car to a HHV using almost all of the existing components. I can not modify the software to utilize the existing ABS software. That doesn't mean it can not be done. It is beyond my capabilities, but it would be childs play for a decent software programmer.

The bicycle will demonstrate the real world wheel to wheel efficiency, and the practicality of daily operation.

The same bicycle would become a motorcycle if you added a small pressure washer engine and pump.

I can finance these personally and for the present time that is where I am going. Investors have made it clear that the critical questions are how good is it and do you have any patent protection?

When I have more information that I can reveal, if you wish, I will follow up with pictures and real data, later this year.

I don't pretend to presume my dream will become the reality of the future, and I understand the serious effort that will be required. Almost ten years has passed since I first started on this effort conceptually.

I did drive my route this morning and it took me 30 minutes to travel 19 miles. Without the workday traffic and the changes in light timing on my typical route, I got stopped by 6 traffic lights out of over 45. I carried a tape recorder as I drove. Three of those were at the worst possible timing, which trashed my inertia and cost me the extra minute easily.

Three lights ruined my chance to make the 19 miles, because they were triggered by off route traffic at exactly the wrong time.

Thats life.

If I have overstepped my welcome, just say the word. If not I will continue to contribute as things progress. Hopefully one day we both will see the demise of the OPEC cartel.

I appreciate you taking your valuable time to interact and raise legitimate concerns. The issues we have debated are certainly relevant and hundreds of hours have been spent to address every single one of them.

I also appreciate your many hours of time and financial support, in this forum, for something we both advocate, better energy management in every aspect of energy consumption.

regards
gary

We are seeing the end of cheap energy.

There will be no single silver bullet.

We need do moderate the size of our homes, vehicles, consider a variety of propulsion systems, hypermile.

In 1980 I was happy to get 30mpg - in 1985 50mpg - 100mpg today in warm weather. I read about various technologies that might get 200mpg or more, but I'm going to do what I can now. New hybrids start at about $20K like they did for me in 2000 - not that pricey.

Third world - they use motorcycles

Hi Gary:

___I have to go mow the grass so this one is going to be short...

___45 stop lights over 19-miles and you did this in 30-minutes? Average stop is about 45-seconds not including the ramp up to speed so 4.5 minutes was spent at those lights let alone those 39 you timed and still averaged 44 mph. That is pretty quick for 2 + stop lights per mile commute let alone leaving the garage and parking in the lot of your destination.

___Do you have your invention powering your car now or are you still talking theoretical??? Your posts hint of more a discussion vs. on the road.

___Next item... The HHV's are still pie in the sky. HEVs, PHEVs and BEV's are here today. China already has a BYD BEV for something like $23K. Not safe for the US or EU but on the road. Your invention on the other hand is not even on the road? How did you seal the HP to atmosphere interface for temps ranging from - 20 to 130 degrees F let alone the NVH? The UPS one-off HHV's are probably costing Eaton about $300,000 a piece. That purchases almost 15-2010Prius-III's that really do get 50 + mpg. And with enough airbags to protect one from driving off a building let alone being comfortable and entertained for a drive across the country... HSD is a $2,000 or less all-in option for Toyota today. IMA is a $1,500 or less option. That is a darn cheap and clean solution that is on the road vs. an HHV that you are only talking about.

___The electrification of the automobile began well over 100 years ago and it is back on the road today. HHV's are a heavy haulers dream and until they reach the marketplace with all the problems associated with a HHV "magically" cured (if they can be cured???), crude will probably be in the neighborhood of $200 per BBl. The third world at that point will not be able to afford gasoline or diesel and their only prospect for ownership will be electric vehicle of some sort. This is always forgotten in the discussion of a billion cars on the road. Those of less means will not be able to afford or have access to the fuel to drive them.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

.3 mile through neighborhood to 7-11 (25mph)

left on 143, 4.5 miles to first light (55 mph) averaged 47

3.5 miles to next light still 143 (45 mph) averaged 45 MPH

3 more miles same route (45 mph) 14 traffic lights usually timed but occasionally get caught by arterial traffic tripping timers. Had to stop 4 times due to bad timing of tripped lights.
Short section of construction 35 mph.

left on denbigh boulevard 4 lights mostly timed (45 mph) speed average 42

right on oreana road about 2.5 miles (45 mph) averaged 45 except for first 6 /10 at 35 speed limit. no traffic lights

right on 17 south two traffic lights, got nailed by the first made it through the second 1 mile total then right on overpass to magruder blvd.

at the bottom of the overpass right on old york hampton highway about 2 miles no lights (40 mph)

left at Bethel High school (no light 40 mph ) 1 mile then right at stop sign and left at light. Tripped by me and timed as bad as it can get today, I usually make it through with help of driver ahead. 1.5 mile.

1 mile to destination.

It was 38 mph average today-19 miles in 30 minutes. Fuel consumption from cold start topped out at 70.2 mpg at destination.

02 Honda Insight with CVT tranny, bought last December for 10k with 34 k original miles.

I have driven this route on average 4 days a week for the last 5 years. averaged 60 mpg in my prior car an civic vx i bought with 27k actual miles (salvaged) and original tires in march of 08. I know every pothole ;).

mapquest newport news virginia, the intersection of jefferson and fort eustis boulevards and you can follow the route.

regards
gary

Hi Gary:

___And during the week when the rest of us drive?

___A 38 mph average allows an Insight w/ a stick 95 + mpg year around in Chicago with the stop and crawls. Did it for years.

___Now about those hydraulic leaks and on the road HHV's?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Gary,

I've always been at a loss on this thread as to it's purpose.

You have dissed electric hybrids and hypermiling.

Then I read on this thread how promising hydraulic hybrid vehicles are....problem is they won't be in any showroom in the foreseeable future.

So Gary, am I supposed to ditch my Honda Insight for a conventional gasser and drive like the average guy? That's the path you are leading us down because there is no place to buy a hydraulic hybrid. How is this getting ahead? I'm confused.

You are driving the best available technology Delta Flyer.

Never disssed Hypermilers, please provide a quote to back up that statement?

I said Hypermiling is a strategy that maximizes design limitations of current vehicles.

I also pointed out the flaws in an all electric vehicle population, and the consequences of the switch from petroleum to electricity and the mega cost of that quantum energy supply shift. No response.

You state that my idea will not mature in the recent future, your alternative is presently not economically feasible, especially if you look at the depreciated value of a Prius when the resale must include the potential cost of a replacement battery. From any high school accountants calculations the end value and up front costs do not support electric hybrids.
My design eliminates that factor. Maybe yo uprefer to ignore that but every person who has a lick of cost factoring skills will not.

In much the same manner as you dissed my original posts, you are now refusing to accept the fact that there is an alternative, even after you have been provided links to several efforts by credible institutions in many different countries. How about the PM with a portion of the Tech PHD (from MIT) who headed this last years R&D on MY design. You thin he is trying to sell a HHO generator. You and Wayne could have simply removed my registration info and ended the agony, as I requested after the first round of caustic insulting responses (there were a few supportive ones). I dare you to post his credentials here.

You refer to the UPS vehicle as the only present example and basically write me off.
Consider Langley and the Wright brothers. One was heavily subsidized by the government, with impeccable credentails.

The other was a pair of brothers with little education, but a passion for an idea and a determination to succeed.

Am I the underdog?

Of course.

Will I fail?

The remains to be seen.

Will my success, if it ever happens, in any way hurt you or any other person on this planet?

Not a chance.

Genius is 99% determination and 1% inspiration. If you have that small percentage of inspiration, then you should consider the determination to be the greatest part of the struggle to succeed. Chase your dreams or live with your own failure to even try.

I have the determination. Maybe I will succeed, maybe not. This post and all the previous threads have no bearing on that event.

Obama has set the bar fairly high. HHV technology is in its infancy compared to the decades and billions already spent on the vehicle type you and I both drive. The whole world is watching and reading this. Those who never knew, now have more knowledge.

I came here as a fellow advocate of exactly the same core belief. The responses were certainly not in keeping with the spirit of your recommendation to conduct myself as if it was a face to face conversation.

I recieved very little of that type of conduct, including being compared to the HHO "snake oil" salesman.

Those who responded that way represent the exact attitude as GM did in the mid 70s when they stated it was not possible to build a car that got 40 MPG. I rebuilt a 77 Accord and my Pop drove it up and down the Florida Keys and averaged 40 MPG three years after the GM corporate statement.

The future will be when you look back and think of this thread, either it will be forgotten and I will fade into the background, or you will see that my inspiration was correct and everyone beneifts from my boneheaded determination.

Either way I win, I get to chase my dream to its conclusion. There is no embarrasment in failure as long as you made a valiant effort to succeed. Henry Ford himself went bankrupt 3 times before he finally got it right with the model T. 8 years later he was worth 25 Million dollars. Ford remained a private company until 1966.

I know cars bro. I have an equal mental capability to anyone who posts here, not a bit more and not a bit less. I looked at the state of the HHV art and got one good idea. That was confirmed by Dr Kornhauser at Tech, when he said it had three distinct advantages over any previous design. He had no vested interest in that statement. Eight senior students looked at the design a year. Not a single one ever told me it would never work because you couldn't keep it from leaking.

I live 15 miles form the nations largest Nuclear Sub shipyard. I know a lot of people who work on them. My next door neighbor was in one for 20 years. Never heard a peep about leaking. The missile boats dont go as far down as the attack boats, becasue as the pressure hull shrinks at over 1000 feet depth, the missile tubes interfere with that shrinkage. My brother was a qualified nuke pipe welder.

I can number is the dozens the retired NASA engineers as well as shipyard hydraulics specialists who have looked at this over the last 5 years and not a single one had a critical comment that would cause the design to not function.

I can come back in a couple of months an provide more technical detail, when the patent application has begun the review process. If anyone here has ever filed for or has a patent they know exactly what I am talking about.

Maybe later ladies and gentlemen, hope you left this better informed.

regards
gary

You are driving the best available technology Delta Flyer.

Never dissed Hypermilers, please provide a quote to back up that statement?

I'm just trying to find out where this thread is supposed to be going to.

Not trying to be overly confrontational on this post.

There will be better ways to recover kinetic energy, but it will never by 100% and even 80% seems beyond reach in the near future.

In regards to why I thought hypermiling - electric hybrids was being dissed....


May have taken this one wrong

Hypermilers (in my opinion) drive cars in a specific operational tactic to avoid or eliminate their design defects.




It's the best thing out there so far

Think about what you really need for hypermiling. I see the storage as something that can be discharged in 10 seconds at max acceleration, to eliminate the vast fuel expendature in acceleration, without adding a significant weight penalty to the vehicle. Engine on-off recharging of the accumulator allows pulse and glide operation while maintaining constant vehicle speeds. Vehicle speed changes in the current pulse and glide strategy encounter losses due to the exponential increase on total aero drag losses at peak pulse speeds compared to the same losses at constant speeds.




I know this last one was outside CleanMPG, but when it was pointed out....I'll be diplomatic and say it was not exactly flattering to hypermilers.

Solutions for tailgaters.

Adjust your rear window washer nozzle to point up in the sky, throw a little antifreeze in the jug. When they turn on their wipers the anitfreeze will smear all over their windshield and even the washers don't get it off quickly. I never use mine, since I use rainX on all the windows.

Pulse and glide to make it a pain to stay on your bumper.

Use your flashers and pull off to the side of the road.

Act like you are drunk or distracted and slide over to the shoulder and give them a gravel bath.

I have a carry permit as well.

regards
gary

Hi Gary:
I also pointed out the flaws in an all electric vehicle population, and the consequences of the switch from petroleum to electricity and the mega cost of that quantum energy supply shift. No response.
___Flaws? Currently they provide better FE (Prius vs. anything else) and with the all-electrics, the ICE is not even close. Something you are also missing... The last I read, 10% of CA. electricity consumption went into making gasoline and diesel. Gasoline today is almost an energy carrier if the present trend of ever harder to find sources of crude continue.
You state that my idea will not mature in the recent future, your alternative is presently not economically feasible, especially if you look at the depreciated value of a Prius when the resale must include the potential cost of a replacement battery. From any high school accountants calculations the end value and up front costs do not support electric hybrids.
___Can you name someone that replaced their Prius battery? Even one of the million plus on the road? A blatant error on your part with that statement and perpetuating a myth. Maybe you need to do some TCO calc’s. Might I suggest that you begin with intellichocie.com? Maybe the reeducation will help you.
My design eliminates that factor. Maybe you prefer to ignore that but every person who has a lick of cost factoring skills will not.___Is this design on the road? Again, the HP to LP problem...
In much the same manner as you dissed my original posts, you are now refusing to accept the fact that there is an alternative, even after you have been provided links to several efforts by credible institutions in many different countries. How about the PM with a portion of the Tech PHD (from MIT) who headed this last years R&D on MY design.___Where is it? I just purchased a 50 mpg rated, 5-passenger 2010 Prius last week. Where that alternative called HHV? Do you know how many tech PHd’s from MIT are working on electrical PHEV and BEV tech?
You and Wayne could have simply removed my registration info and ended the agony, as I requested after the first round of caustic insulting responses (there were a few supportive ones). I dare you to post his credentials here.___Chuck or I insulted you and removed your registration info? I do not think so...
You refer to the UPS vehicle as the only present example and basically write me off.___Do you have others that are on the streets of the US and driving daily?
Obama has set the bar fairly high. HHV technology is in its infancy compared to the decades and billions already spent on the vehicle type you and I both drive. The whole world is watching and reading this. Those who never knew, now have more knowledge.___HHVs have been around since at Least Gray at the EPA. What was that, 20 years ago?
I received very little of that type of conduct, including being compared to the HHO "snake oil" salesman.
___Not exactly. SnakeOil salesman do not last but a single post for the most part.
Those who responded that way represent the exact attitude as GM did in the mid 70s when they stated it was not possible to build a car that got 40 MPG. I rebuilt a 77 Accord and my Pop drove it up and down the Florida Keys and averaged 40 MPG three years after the GM corporate statement.___I have only had one tank less than 40 mpg in a 3,300 + pound mid-sized Accord and it occurred in temps below 0. It is a PZEV and includes all the bells and whistles. So what???
I know cars bro. I have an equal mental capability to anyone who posts here, not a bit more and not a bit less.He had no vested interest in that statement. Eight senior students looked at the design a year. Not a single one ever told me it would never work because you couldn't keep it from leaking.[/quote]
___Lack of experiencing there...
I live 15 miles form the nations largest Nuclear Sub shipyard. I know a lot of people who work on them. My next door neighbor was in one for 20 years. Never heard a peep about leaking. The missile boats don’t go as far down as the attack boats, because as the pressure hull shrinks at over 1000 feet depth, the missile tubes interfere with that shrinkage. My brother was a qualified nuke pipe welder.
___This is not a pressure hull mated against the ocean or the RCS as they do not have an open path to one atm with temps bouncing around between – 20 and + 130. Nuke plant RCS’ leak rates are so low to be almost imperceptible but EHC fluid leaks occur in every plant I have worked at because the HP system is smack dab up against atm with a rotating component spinning away.
I can come back in a couple of months an provide more technical detail, when the patent application has begun the review process. If anyone here has ever filed for or has a patent they know exactly what I am talking about.___You are only at the patent application process??? No prototypes???? Please do come back when the work in progress is in a car or truck we can drive and it can somehow provide more magic FE from a std. ICE then a std. HEV let alone the upcoming super efficient PHEV and BEV's.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

My goodness!!!!

I don't think RIDE has dissed hybrids or hypermilers. And I do think there is merit to the tech hes working with.

I for one look forward to the efforts put into HHV.

Hi Jeff:

Originally Posted by R.I.D.E.: “You state that my idea will not mature in the recent future, your alternative is presently not economically feasible, especially if you look at the depreciated value of a Prius when the resale must include the potential cost of a replacement battery. From any high school accountants calculations the end value and up front costs do not support electric hybrids.”

___Total garbage and a simple click on Intellichocie.com will reveal it... $3.00 per makes it an even more lopsided conclusion. He is not doing his homework when it comes to HEV's and is stating all kinds of positives for the HHV when there is really only one version on the ground and it is performing at a level no better than the electrics. Let alone his is in patent let alone nothing in the real world.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The reason I don't get into rush hour traffic is I don't have to, because I am retired.

Wayne, you are using the NiMH battery to support your PEV rationale, not Lithium, the new miracle battery seems to be like the bucket of water just out of reach of Mel Gibson's horse as it wanders into the desert.

I have read Mile's info concerning NiMH as well as IamIam's work on Insight Central, and I understand that type has a long life expectancy (one post said 30 years).

The inertia in this forum is in the direction of BEV's and I understand that perfectly well. You should consider the INNAS vehicle where the engine only runs 11% of the Euro cycle test. The BMW test by INNAS was a side by side comparison of the same vehicle and the fuel consumption was reduced by 50%, or a 100% increase. That's under identical test procedure, something that also seems to be ignored.

My pump was concieved 3 years and 3 months ago. Whether INNAS was working on their design that long ao I couldn't know. My first document on the engine design which has not (and should not) be debated here was August 5 2003.

After 30 years working on cars, with the last 14 running my own business including all accounting, taxes, every aspect. I built two houses and made 400k tax free, while the market was at its peak. I didn't loose a cent in the stock market in 08, funds were in secured CD's.

The rationale that the PEV is the future of cars, while it may be generally supported here, is viewed with much skepticism in the general public. Even in the community of Hypermilers there are those who do not want to pay the up front cost of a new hybrid, watch the depreciation wipe out its value until it is the same as a simple non hybrid at 125K miles. Give me a 10 k gas card and a simple Corolla with roll up windows and no complicated junk I don't need t hat will cost a fortune to replace later.

A 42k Mercedes at 100 k miles will barely bring 14% of its original selling price. The resale market on hybrids seems to be following the same trend. Compare that to a Civic VX in the exact same condition, or even a manual HX. Of course there are no used hybrids as old as either of those cars, except the latter years of the HX.

I see hybrids with 150 K, and a few have reached over 300 k. I have seen regular cars with 2 to 3 times that mileage driven daily.

What would you pay for a Pruis with 200k miles?
How about a Corolla?
Take the difference in the new price of each and buy a gas card, where is the break even point?
About 300k miles.

I bought my Insight because the battery warrantee expires in Sept 2013, the car sat on the dealers lot for 14 months before it was sold.

Why?

Becasue the price of fuel was soo cheap no one wanted to pay over 20 k for a two seater with a 385 pound payload.

Last summer a Geo Metro sold on Ebay for 8 grand.

Why?

A lot of Insight battery packs have been replaced. I talked with an Insight owner who paid 5 grand for a battery, hope it got the letter and got his money back.

If you want to express an opinion then why is it necessary to use yesterdays technology to support that decision, when you claim as yet unrealized advancements using tomorrows technology that has no history to show obvious flaws, like the life expectancy of computer batteries. Of course computers are throw away items due to planned obsolescence.

Also you decide to relegate HHV to history, claiming they have no examples on the road. You trash them as leaking sieves of hycraulic fluid, using your personal experience as an example.

Any supporting evidence?

You know proof beyond YOUR own opinion. I googled leaking hydraulic hybrids, and on the whole internet there was ONE page of information and none of it was related to the UPS vehicles. You also do not know at this time how much better their mileage is over conventioanl and they are already diesel, like the TDI in your road test. Now if that same TDI was used by INNAS in their side by side comparison, and they cut the fuel mileage in half, you would be drooling over it like some new descendent of Raquel Welch.

You still think trying to belittle me with judgements based on no real information is a proper way to conduct yourself, while you spout off about treating others like it was a face to face conversation.

I followed your advice, you did not follow your own advice.

They call that hippocrisy, gentleman.

Never underestimate your adversary, is a really smart military tactic.

The PHD Engineer doctor at Tech, who decided that my pump was worth the time and effort to investigate, without any personal benefit. Lets list some of his credentails.

1989 Sc.D Mechanical Engineering
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Minor Chemistry

M.E. Mechanical Engineering 1973
B.S. Mechanical Engineering 1973
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Associate professor at Tech since 1989
Teaching
Thermodynamics, IC engines, Me design, Me lab.

Research
Heat transfer in reciprocating machines, Stirling Engines, vapor compression refirgeration, two phase flow, ic engine combsution and emissions.

Research assistant Cryogenic Engineering laboratory, MIT, Cambridge MA

Heat transfer research. Experimantal and analytical study of transient heat transfer in Stirling engine cylinders and heat exchangers.

Plant engineer Coca Cola Foods

Engineer Lockwood-Greene Engineers NY,NY.

Design Engineer, Gibbs & Cox, NY,NY.

You may feel like you position is made stronger by belittling my education or or intelligence with the "internat personna", but you better be prepared to also belittle every advocate of my design.

I invited anyone here to call the Dr. and talk to him. Delta Flyr has the contact information.
He did not dar to publish it here, instead he tried to impune me by publishing an out of context post of a thread in another forum.

Post the whole thread there DF, instead of jumping in on a thread, that, by you own admission you know nothing about.

POST A LINK TO THE WHOLE THREAD.

Thats what you demanded of me when I quoted sources without links.

In other words gents, maybe you should look inside yourselves for a lack of objectiveity. I know I am biased, and I have rationally presented my opinion.

You, on the other hand state yours as fact, and support your "facts" with cherry picked information you hope will befuddle the reader into swallowing hook line and sinker.

Hilarious to say the least.

A quote after links were provided.

"Why didn't you say your name was "Gary Greenwell".

My answer to that quote

I didn't think it was that important.

You see I don'treally like links folks. I would rather search the internet and read a lot of relevant information. I have read tens of thousands of pages in the last several years. More time than it would take to get a bachelors, master, and doctors degrees.

When I told the Professor I thought I could build an engine that got 60% efficiency, he was very skeptical, but certainly not denegrative. That was over a year ago.

Now on Green Car Congress Argonne is working to produce an engine that gets 60% efficiency. I have emails from them telling me they did not have the funds to pursue the exact same goal 4 years ago.

Maybe I am an idiot, I have done some dumb things in my life, but on the other hand maybe I am looking ahead further that you are and assesing the whole situation with better insight to the total consequences of the interactions you have not considered because you are too busy defending your own "fixed in stone" postion to be in the least bit objective.

I didn't bother to proof read for spelling or punctuation.

regards
gary

Hi Gary;

I am retired also and in my 35 year career as a buyer of electronic parts I have had the chore of working with many who see a half empty cup routinely. They will spew out their "perfect" logic giving you 100's of reasons why your point of view will not work, showing you flawed, showing your logic naive. They will never give you 1/2 of a suggestion on how you can better obtain the goal.

They are so tedious and hard to work with, but inevitable as weeds in the garden for anyone like yourself who is perusing an idea.

I thank you Gary for the time you have spent with us. I eagerly look forward to your continued input here.

Bob.

Maybe sometime if I decide to work on a Master's I'll pick apart this thread as a thesis: it would take a semester or two to go blow by blow thru 76 posts and counting.

When a thread on any topic goes on for such a long time like this, what does it tell you? My experience on forums is it's people that will go on and on and on until they's won the argument - not a discussion anymore.

Gary, when you speak of hypocrisy examine your own attacks. For instance, you said you did not diss hypermiling.

Solutions for tailgaters.

Adjust your rear window washer nozzle to point up in the sky, throw a little antifreeze in the jug. When they turn on their wipers the anitfreeze will smear all over their windshield and even the washers don't get it off quickly. I never use mine, since I use rainX on all the windows.

Pulse and glide to make it a pain to stay on your bumper.

Use your flashers and pull off to the side of the road.

Act like you are drunk or distracted and slide over to the shoulder and give them a gravel bath.

I have a carry permit as well.

regards
gary

Just one example.

Virtually every post Gary made fills an entire screen with about 15 points, generally unsubstantiated....it would take me days or even weeks to go thru every point he has made...it would be useless to expend that kind of effort because he will simply ignore any point that's difficult to answer and go on indefinitely. Sorry - there is no shortage of people on forums that can argue literally for years....for most of those people they are not a doctor, but might need to see a doctor. ;) (general remark not directed at you - just my commentary on endless arguements)


What is sad is hydraulic hybrids is such a deserving topic - I'd like to see it discussed in a better atmosphere. In this thread, this messenger went too fast, with too much information at a time, assumed too much we would just accept it at face value and somehow know it was different from so much other stuff we read on the internet.

Good topic, but the presentation was badly flawed.

Hi Gary:
The reason I don't get into rush hour traffic is I don't have to, because I am retired.
___That is about as real world for the rest of us as it gets??? You had better consider mileage testing with the rest of us...

Wayne, you are using the NiMH battery to support your PEV rationale, not Lithium, the new miracle battery seems to be like the bucket of water just out of reach of Mel Gibson's horse as it wanders into the desert.
___I sure am and Toyota’s have been working great for well over 10-years now.
I have read Mile's info concerning NiMH as well as IamIam's work on Insight Central, and I understand that type has a long life expectancy (one post said 30 years).
___Not on Honda’s unfortunately :(
The inertia in this forum is in the direction of BEV's and I understand that perfectly well. You should consider the INNAS vehicle where the engine only runs 11% of the Euro cycle test. The BMW test by INNAS was a side by side comparison of the same vehicle and the fuel consumption was reduced by 50%, or a 100% increase. That's under identical test procedure, something that also seems to be ignored.
___And Guess which way BMW Is not headed with their own future products up to this point?
After 30 years working on cars, with the last 14 running my own business including all accounting, taxes, every aspect. I built two houses and made 400k tax free, while the market was at its peak. I didn't loose a cent in the stock market in 08, funds were in secured CD's.
___Great, many here are worth far more ;)
The rationale that the PEV is the future of cars, while it may be generally supported here, is viewed with much skepticism in the general public. Even in the community of Hypermilers there are those who do not want to pay the up front cost of a new hybrid, watch the depreciation wipe out its value until it is the same as a simple non hybrid at 125K miles. Give me a 10 k gas card and a simple Corolla with roll up windows and no complicated junk I don't need t hat will cost a fortune to replace later... I see hybrids with 150 K, and a few have reached over 300 k. I have seen regular cars with 2 to 3 times that mileage driven daily.
___Intellichoice.com and you are speaking beyond your understanding here. Used Insight’s last summer were going for more than people paid for them with miles. The same for Prius’. Name anything “worth” driving that can do that. If you believe driving a Metro or anything with 200,000 miles is the way to nirvana, you will be missing the boat as 99.997% of the public will not drive a vehicle that unsafe and close to junk. I know 180,000 who purchased new Prius’s in 07 and 150,000 last year.
What would you pay for a Prius with 200k miles?
How about a Corolla?
Take the difference in the new price of each and buy a gas card, where is the break even point?
About 300k miles.
___Again, 99.997% of us in the real world will never purchase a vehicle with 200,000 miles on the clock. I see you did not do either for some reason??? What they will buy however is a new vehicle and the Corolla costs more than a Prius-II over 75K and 150K miles due to more than just FE let alone a ton of extra features and safety. You said something like a third grader could figure that one out earlier. Pretty simple stuff here.
A lot of Insight battery packs have been replaced. I talked with an Insight owner who paid 5 grand for a battery, hope it got the letter and got his money back.
___And of course I asked if you know one individual that replaced a Prius pack as there are more than a million on the road.
If you want to express an opinion then why is it necessary to use yesterdays technology to support that decision, when you claim as yet unrealized advancements using tomorrows technology that has no history to show obvious flaws, like the life expectancy of computer batteries. Of course computers are throw away items due to planned obsolescence.
___Yesterdays tech? You yourself are driving tech invented in the 90’s? Today’s HEV’s are a stepping stone to all-electrics and it is only a tick off of the gas pump away before that will happen. That is why GM, F, C, T, H and Nissan are barreling headlong into it. They appear to have bypassed HHV’s because that is 20 year old tech :rolleyes:
Also you decide to relegate HHV to history, claiming they have no examples on the road. You trash them as leaking sieves of hydraulic fluid, using your personal experience as an example.

Any supporting evidence?
___Yes, I have been knee deep in the crap more than once and it was not a fun experience. Wait until a 4,000 + PSI accumulator lets loose through a fitting in somebody’s garage and you will find the same.
You know proof beyond YOUR own opinion.
___Sorry but that was not an opinion as there were many more operators than myself that were tasked to try and clean that one up let alone the daily mess we had to contend with.
You also do not know at this time how much better their mileage is over conventional and they are already diesel, like the TDI in your road test. Now if that same TDI was used by INNAS in their side by side comparison, and they cut the fuel mileage in half, you would be drooling over it like some new descendent of Raquel Welch.
___With a 90% Off time, why are the HHV’s only giving 40 to 50% higher FE? Secondly, I actually drove the TDI across the country and back. I have done the same with any number of Ford, Honda and Toyota hybrids. For some reason I could not find an HHV from any manufacturer to do the same in. I most certainly would like to but the manufacturers press fleets seem to be devoid of them for some reason? I wish I knew why but hopefully you have the answer to that?
You still think trying to belittle me with judgments based on no real information is a proper way to conduct yourself, while you spout off about treating others like it was a face to face conversation.
___I do not belittle you, I belittle your HHV because at this point, where are they? 20-year old tech sitting in the EPA garage does not make a manufacturer or anybody else drool.
I followed your advice, you did not follow your own advice.
___Are you driving around in your HHV or an Insight Hybrid. I think you can figure out what hypocrisy means all by yourself...
The PHD Engineer doctor at Tech, who decided that my pump was worth the time and effort to investigate, without any personal benefit. Lets list some of his credentials.

1989 Sc.D Mechanical Engineering
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Minor Chemistry

M.E. Mechanical Engineering 1973
B.S. Mechanical Engineering 1973
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

Associate professor at Tech since 1989
Teaching
Thermodynamics, IC engines, Me design, Me lab.

Research
Heat transfer in reciprocating machines, Stirling Engines, vapor compression refrigeration, two phase flow, ic engine combustion and emissions.

Research assistant Cryogenic Engineering laboratory, MIT, Cambridge MA

Heat transfer research. Experimental and analytical study of transient heat transfer in Stirling engine cylinders and heat exchangers.

Plant engineer Coca Cola Foods

Engineer Lockwood-Greene Engineers NY,NY.

Design Engineer, Gibbs & Cox, NY,NY.
___Those are some credentials! I raise your PhD and add a company behind it...
Dr. Yet-Ming Chiang, a co-founder of A123Systems, is also a full professor in the Materials Science and Engineering Department at MIT. Dr. Chiang’s research at MIT focuses on the design and synthesis of advanced materials, and the development of new devices enabled by material advances, including new energy storage and mechanical actuator technologies.

In 1987 he co-founded American Superconductor [NASDAQ: AMSC]. He has published widely in materials science and engineering, and served on numerous government panels and editorial boards of journals in his field. Prof. Chiang has a SB Materials Science and Engineering, MIT, 1980 and a ScD Ceramics, MIT, 1985.
___Would you like a sample of their products? Head to your local Home Depot and pickup a DeWalt cordless drill. I tried to find a Hydraulic Hybrid variant of that tool because "someone on the net told me" it was much more efficient but Home Depot did not stock them for some reason?
You may feel like you position is made stronger by belittling my education or or intelligence with the "internet persona", but you better be prepared to also belittle every advocate of my design.
___I would never do such a thing. I am only stating the obvious. 20-year old tech that has gone nowhere vs. 100-year old tech that you and many others are driving today. One gets more than 50 mpg. The other... Well in some lab somewhere it received ...
In other words gents, maybe you should look inside yourselves for a lack of objectivity. I know I am biased, and I have rationally presented my opinion.

You, on the other hand state yours as fact, and support your "facts" with cherry picked information you hope will befuddle the reader into swallowing hook line and sinker.
___I can only wish that you had 20 years in a Nuke to see, feel and hear the dark side of a HP Hydraulic system. I have.
When I told the Professor I thought I could build an engine that got 60% efficiency, he was very skeptical, but certainly not degenerative. That was over a year ago.

Now on Green Car Congress Argonne is working to produce an engine that gets 60% efficiency. I have emails from them telling me they did not have the funds to pursue the exact same goal 4 years ago.
___We have reported on ICE like tech that will supposedly do 80% as well but where is it? We have also reported on the ultimate SuperCap from EEStor. And where are those? It is better to be skeptical up front than to wish all of this tech will make it into our drives before all hell breaks loose. We live in the real world where the rubber meets the road. Living by the credo shoulda ,woulda, coulda is a recipe for disaster and the exact reason you are driving an HEV today instead of an HHV years ago.
Maybe I am an idiot, I have done some dumb things in my life, but on the other hand maybe I am looking ahead further that you are and assessing the whole situation with better insight to the total consequences of the interactions you have not considered because you are too busy defending your own "fixed in stone" position to be in the least bit objective.
___Not in the least and I do not believe anyone here has called you such. What we are asking for however is where is the magic? Let me drive the magic to make my own conclusions. So far, the magic is nowhere to be found but that 2010 Prius my parents are driving sure is one heck of a vehicle and a future PHEV or BEV from whoever will be even nicer...
I didn't bother to proof read for spelling or punctuation.
___I took care of some of that in this reply but that would be the least of my concerns given I upload more spelling and grammatically incorrect drivel than anyone on the forum ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I invited anyone here to call the Dr. and talk to him. Delta Flyer has the contact information.

He did not dare to publish it here, instead he tried to impure me by publishing an out of context post of a thread in another forum. The other moderators have access to that PM and did not pursue it either.

You're daring me to publish one's email out in public - that's responsible?

I'm not questioning your credentials, but find the manner you attempted to promote hydraulic hybrids puzzling to say the least.

The kind of proof you are insisting on attorneys might want $200@hr....considering the novel you wrote here you will never stop, for that pay I'd gladly accept a job like that. Speaking of the law, it would not be real world because by this time a judge would have the arguments stop by now. ;)

The CleanMPG staff and active members spend hours each week to keep this forum going. 99% of the time it's fun or we would not do it. Yes, we enjoy it. What we are not going to do is forget all the other 10,000+ members and pretend we are an unpaid Dream team of attorneys, knowing full well you will never stop arguing - know that because you dodged the leak problems, and are less critical of drawingboard designs of HHVs than ten years of gas-electric hybrids.

Find it strange that 99%+ of the members joined CleanMPG without this kind of contention? Yes - I know it's got to be my fault. :rolleyes:

Sorry - once you joined, the URL did not change to www.hydraulic-hybrids.com (http://www.hydraulic-hybrids.com) and the focal point became you....I can't tell you how many times a newbie has joined and thinks the forum revolves around them.

Again, this was a good topic, and you have good credentials, but your PR and debate sabotaged it.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/1211270277.html

regards
gary

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/cto/1211270277.html

regards
garyIt's a Prius I with a dent in the rear bumper and right rear door for $3,500.

It's 7-9 years old with over 100,000 miles.

No more information, but the dents might suggest the care of the vehicle could be less than average.

Aside from that, I can't read anything more into the ad.

If there was another point in posting this ad, I'm afraid it's conjecture without taking a closer look in person or driving it.

Hi RIDE:

Intellichoice (intellichoice.com)

___Good Luck

___Wayne