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http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/../photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg Don't let anybody mislead you: The new push to get a 15% ethanol mandate out of Washington is simply to restore profitability to a failed industry, while destroying engines
(http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories_msnbc)
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/ethanol-gas-tank.jpgEd Wallace - Business Week (http://www.businessweek.com) - May. 14, 2009

As Ed asks in the article: Where's the logic? Absolutely none - except those looking out for #1, namely the ethanol industry -- Ed.

"Does the average citizen understand what this means? In from 10 to 20 years this country will be dependent entirely upon outside sources for a supply of liquid fuels … paying out vast sums yearly in order to obtain supplies of crude oil from Mexico, Russia, and Persia."—Yale Professor Harold Hibbert, ethanol promoter, 1925

More than one major transportation-based industry in America besides Detroit (http://bx.businessweek.com/us-automakers/) is on the ropes. For the fourth time in our history the ethanol industry (http://bx.businessweek.com/ethanol/) has come undone and is quickly failing nationally. Of course it's one thing when Detroit collapsed with the economy; after all, that is a truly free-market enterprise and the economy hasn't been good. But the fact that the ethanol industry is going bankrupt, when the only reason we use this additive is a massive government mandate, is outrageous at best.

Then again, the ethanol lobby and refiners have a solution to ethanol's failure in America: Hire retired General Wesley Clark as your point man and lobby the government to increase the amount of ethanol in our fuel to 15%. The problems with that proposition are real—unlike ethanol's… http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories_msnbc

All of this ethanol contamination of our gasoline stocks makes diesel look better and better. No ethanol crap and a much longer shelf life. I am also glad that I live in a state that requires ethanol labeling on the pumps, so I know what I'm getting and don't have to play Russian roulette with the ethanol content of my gas.

I was reading in Progressive Farmer that about a third of the acreage that used to grow rice and cotton in Louisiana has been switched to corn in recent years because of its greater profits. So the ethanol mandate leads to higher costs for your rice and clothing. And they are very close to releasing new strains of drought resistant corn that will allow corn agriculture in dryer parts of the Great Plains in regions that have traditionally been too dry for corn and have usually grown wheat. So there goes the cost of flour and bread. I am so glad that I produce most of my own food on my land and so am mostly exempt from rising food costs, but most people don't have that option.

I am also glad that I live in a state that requires ethanol labeling on the pumps, so I know what I'm getting and don't have to play Russian roulette with the ethanol content of my gas...

I don't have to play Russian roulette either. In this state I KNOW I am getting E10. Labelled ot not, it's E10.

Anyone wonder why people SCREAM about hybrids falling apart when you can ruin an E85 simply by using straight ethanol per this article? ;)

Hmmm, the pumps at my Shell station-New Orleans suburb- never mention ethanol-I wonder if they are required to? Maybe the sudden drop in Prius FE is due to ethanol?

Of course, it got 58 mpg when I did my 30 mile RT to UNO, so maybe it is just my wife and son who are "guilty" -hope they/she doesn't lean over my shoulder and read this!

Speaking of food-anyone know of a good way to kill those flea beetles that are shredding my tomato plant leaves? I recently(after the fact of course)put a powder with a bacteria Bacillus something in it-supposed to kill crawling bugs, but leave bees etc alone?

Thanks,
Charlie
PS-Yes, the tomato question is out of place-I'll delete if necessary. Saw some farmers, figured they would know. Tomatoes were over $2/lb last year.
PPS- Yes corn for fuel is a HUGE scam. I had no idea Louisiana was growing commercial corn-we aren't the corn belt.Heck, why not just grow sugar cane for fuel-screw corn.
Charlie

At City Garage in Euless, Tex., for example, the first of numerous future customers brought in an automobile whose fuel pump was shot. A quick diagnosis determined that that particular car had close to 18% ethanol in the fuel. For that unlucky owner, the repairs came to nearly $900 (cheaper than most). The ethanol fun was just beginning.

in December he filled up his E85 Flex Fuel Chevy Suburban at the Exxon station in Ovilla, just south of Dallas. His Suburban died on the spot, because even an E85-equipped vehicle will not run on the 100% pure ethanol that Exxon station was pumping that day. In that case it was not Exxon's fault but a mistake at the distribution center, and Exxon paid

I was reading in Progressive Farmer that about a third of the acreage that used to grow rice and cotton in Louisiana has been switched to corn in recent years because of its greater profits. So the ethanol mandate leads to higher costs for your rice and clothing. And they are very close to releasing new strains of drought resistant corn that will allow corn agriculture in dryer parts of the Great Plains in regions that have traditionally been too dry for corn and have usually grown wheat. So there goes the cost of flour and bread. I am so glad that I produce most of my own food on my land and so am mostly exempt from rising food costs, but most people don't have that option.

Can you possibly link to a source on this? I think it would be a fascinating read.

E10 did a quick job killing off my old 2003 HCH

Yes corn for fuel is a HUGE scam. I had no idea Louisiana was growing commercial corn-we aren't the corn belt.Heck, why not just grow sugar cane for fuel-screw corn.
Charlie

Totally agreed. Some of the country's limited cane-growing land being used for corn instead? That's just @!%$#@$!@#!@$#$#@.

The documentary King Corn is an interesting resource. Two friends at Harvard or Yale (I can't remember at the moment) realized their great-grandfathers both farmed in the same small county in Iowa, so the two friends go there to see what it takes to grow an acre of corn.

Turns out, in the early 1970s Richard Nixon's Agriculture Secretary changed US policy from paying midwest farmers to underproduce to overproduce. As a result, farms that grew diversely died out; it paid to produce corn that would go uneaten.

(Feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering any of this.)

Wow, is it any surprise that BIG agriculture, now being dominated by corporate giants, is now raping us via our bought and paid for congressmen.
I generally favor Pres Obama, but I really doubt that he will cut off any corn states that voted for him. We-taxpayers- now will pay a subsidy-via the ethanol scam- to have the land overworked producing a crop we won't eat.

Growing corn in a sugar cane state-WTF!!

Charlie

Can anyone provide an authoritative source that convincingly demonstrates the dangers of E10 to pre 2004 gasoline engines? I contacted two different Toyota service centers and they both stated that E10 should not harm my 2000 Camry's 4 cylinder engine but only if the concentration of ethanol does not go beyond E10.

A quick diagnosis determined that that particular car had close to 18% ethanol in the fuel.

Quick? Really? With what, a taste test? And why mention that a vehicle designed for E85 will die on the spot if you fill it with E100? Will it still die if you fill it with kerosene? :)

Another fun fact: If we outlawed gasoline and diesel, thereby removing every last car, truck and SUV from our highways—no vehicles anywhere on any road in the country—America would still have to import oil because we would still use more crude than domestic production can supply.

Something to keep in mind. My neighbor wanted to spend about 13k on a newer car that got better mileage. We talked it over, did some math and came to the conclusion to buy a new oil burner for $400, and to set his tires at 60psi. He used 300 gallons less of heating oil this year. Not too bad.

One more note. What makes a E85 vehicle so special? Do these cars have ethanol problems too? I haven't seen to much about that. Seems odd that 10-15% could have one car and you can run E85 in another. The only difference I could find between the two is the E85 uses a wideband O2 sensor, larger range of ignition timing and longer durations for injector pulses.

There seems to be some middle ground between the people that want to make money off ethanol and the people that hate it.

I found this on the 'Car Talk' website and it's Car Talk's Tom and Ray's response to an online question about whether 10% ethanol will harm car engines.

http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/2006/March/03.html

Anyone get the feeling that if a big lobbying group benefited from hybrids and EVs, it would be sailing like flex-fuel vehicles?

Flex fuel vehicle made for E85 have steel fuel lines and fittings, as well as being tuned to handle E85. The high concentration of ethanol will eat rubber and plastic lines and fittings in non-flex-fuel vehicles. This seems to be the culprit when dealing with higher concentrations of ethanol.

Can you possibly link to a source on this? I think it would be a fascinating read.

It was in the February issue of The Progressive Farmer. It was an "Our Absolute Best" issue and the article was titled "Best New Corn Frontiers", covering some of the locations where farmers are now growing corn that were traditionally used for other crops.


http://progressivefarmer.com/farmer/bestplaces/

Speaking of food-anyone know of a good way to kill those flea beetles that are shredding my tomato plant leaves? I recently(after the fact of course)put a powder with a bacteria Bacillus something in it-supposed to kill crawling bugs, but leave bees etc alone?

Thanks,
Charlie
PS-Yes, the tomato question is out of place-I'll delete if necessary. Saw some farmers, figured they would know. Tomatoes were over $2/lb last year.
PPS- Yes corn for fuel is a HUGE scam. I had no idea Louisiana was growing commercial corn-we aren't the corn belt.Heck, why not just grow sugar cane for fuel-screw corn.
Charlie

Try sprinkling diatomacious earth around the base of your tomato plants.

The commercial sugar cane growing areas are down on the delta near the coast. The new corn growing areas mentioned in the article are in the NE corner of the state near the Arkansas line, areas that used to grow rice and cotton. It isn't as productive growing corn there compared to the corn belt, but at current corn prices it brings in greater profits to the farmers than growing cotton or rice (at least until a shortage in those commodities raises their prices enough to compete with that of corn).

The documentary King Corn is an interesting resource. Two friends at Harvard or Yale (I can't remember at the moment) realized their great-grandfathers both farmed in the same small county in Iowa, so the two friends go there to see what it takes to grow an acre of corn.

Turns out, in the early 1970s Richard Nixon's Agriculture Secretary changed US policy from paying midwest farmers to underproduce to overproduce. As a result, farms that grew diversely died out; it paid to produce corn that would go uneaten.

(Feel free to correct me if I'm misremembering any of this.)

Yeah if I remember right they came out at something like negative $20 till the government subsidy's and then they came out making what, like $15 on that entire acre?

Seems dumb for the govt to pay farmers to grow food, but I guess if we tried and let the market settle it then the whole country would starve for a year or something.

......

Seems dumb for the govt to pay farmers to grow food, but I guess if we tried and let the market settle it then the whole country would starve for a year or something.



The programs change all the time, but the last time I checked most of the direct subsidy programs were decoupled from actual production and a lot of (usually erodible) acreage was enrolled in conservation programs that take it out of production.

I'd say that the current ethanol program indirectly subsidizes farmers to grow fuel, but that growing Asian demand for livestock feed is likely to support corn prices in any case.

Basjoos,
Yes, I live/lived in cane country.There were cane fields completely surrounding the town I grew up in. They would burn the fields every year before harvesting.

I'll give those diatoms a try.The bacteria seem to be working a little, but I'm still cutting away shotgunned leaves everyday.

Thanks,
Charlie

The only difference I could find between the two is the E85 uses a wideband O2 sensor, larger range of ignition timing and longer durations for injector pulses...


Other than the differences you mentioned a FFV also has a fuel delivery system (lines, injectors, etc.) that is designed to stand up to the higher acidity levels of E85. The higher acidity of ethanol is the biggest problem with using it as fuel in vehicles that aren't designed for it.

The reason that E100 won't work in the FFV is the change in flash point. A vehicle can be designed to use E100 (look at Brazil), but the US hasn't gone in that direction yet, partly due to cooler weather (and in winter E85 is actually E75 due to this).

Any vehicle can use E85, but it will run poorly and the higher acidity will cause something to fail. I have seen several people fueling up with it just because it is cheaper. One tank won't cause much of a problem (though it may make an existing problem worse), but any more than that is asking for a lot of trouble.

Wow,
It really shouldn't be that hard to make fuel systems ethanol proof. Heck, just eyeball what distillers use, or what packagers of antiseptic ethanol use(yes, isopropanal is more common, but there is still plenty of ethanol antiseptic at your drugstore).
Ethanol really isn't a harsh chemical like a strong acid or base, or oxidizing agent.

Car corps don't charge much more for FFVs, so it really can't be that expensive to ethanol harden vehicles(yes, I know it is worth their while for CAFE reasons to FFV vehicles).

Heck, many early cars were ethanol driven(granted they weren't very reliable).

I would bet that Brazil doesn't have a huge problem with ethanol cars eating seals etc. It is probably just a question of not using the absolutely cheapest material-spend a few pennies more, and get good material-not the cheapest that will on average last 100,000 miles.
Charlie

Car corps don't charge much more for FFVs, so it really can't be that expensive to ethanol harden vehicles(yes, I know it is worth their while for CAFE reasons to FFV vehicles).

What did I pay for the upgrade to FFV?

$0

From what I have seen the FFV vehicles (with the same engine and other options) are the same price as the non-FFV vehicles of the same model.

It's a free "upgrade".

And the original Ford vehicles were all designed as FFV as well.

It was free to you, but you can be sure it wasn't free to Chrysler. I doubt it was huge, but it wasn't zero. We'll likely never know how much it actually cost, though.