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Another website I visit is Scionlife, in particular, the tC and xB fora, where the cars are similar to what I drive. The drivers are a mix of high performance and enthusiasts to average family and worker types.

An xB thread discussed the best mileage the users got with their boxes. 40 posters averaged 33.9 mpg as their best, and 35 posters listed an average 27.4 mpg for their worst mileage. This correlates pretty well with original EPA estimates of 31 mpg combined estimated mileage for AT and MT xB1s, but a far cry from the 40 mpg I expect to average with my xB1. My first fillup yielded 46.8 mpg, and I got about 44 mpg driving it locally today.

My SE-R correlates well with the Scion tC in terms of engine displacement and EPA mileage estimates. A discussion thread on tC highest tank mileages revealed an average 27.2 mpg for top fuel economy, again close to the EPA highway estimate of 27 mpg, and a far cry from the 37.4 mpg I've averaged over the past 8500 miles.

We hypermilers live in a different world from average drivers.

Hi Darrell:

___The good thing is you are at the forefront over there. The bad thing is all of those individuals will flip and say you are drafting or doing something dangerous or you are a “****”.

___Fortunately, we all know the realities and look forward to hearing about your first post revealing your "domination" of the group. A few will get it and come around to driving the speed limits and setting up their car properly while taking a far more anticipatory and defensive approach to driving vs. the reactionary type mode they are probably currently in...

___Let us know how the battle lines are drawn when the time comes. If you need help, just ask.

___Good Luck and congrats on the success you have achieved so far!

___Wayne

Thanks Wayne,

I haven't received much negative feedback yet over there. The go-fast camp ignores mileage improvement discussions, or brags about getting 20-25 mpg like it's a badge of courage. The slow camp typically beats EPA by 15-20%, and seems satisfied.

I got criticized in a drafting thread for being in a truck's blind spot (one lane over), but I was relating motorcycle experiences from 37 years ago! I replied that occasionally I'll find myself behind a truck at 55 mph, and 70% of the cars passing us will be tailgating with less than a 2 second following time - insanely dangerous.

I can identify with you. For me it's Yarisworld. A place where the ignorant fear mongers think inflating tires more than the door jam suggestion is suicide. A place where I'm not driving in the real world because I can now consistently break 50 US MPG in warmish weather and even in the winter.

There are a few cleanmpgers on Yarisworld now and bailout is never afraid to voice his opinion, but it does get tiring dealing with the unwaivering ignorance of the majority. On the upside, if you give good information and point people in the direction of guru's like Wayne, some people will change.

You simply cannot argue with the hard data on this site. I was a conservative driver compared to average before fully converting over to hypermiling and even I improved my FE by over 13%. You may be called a liar, drafter, or even *gasp* a hypermiler, but just remember for all the people flaming you there are way more people reading your posts who will learn from the information you're sharing if you keep it mature and don't get dragged into the internet gutter.

Those ranting on hypermilers seem more and more like a cornered animal - they lash out and they don't reason.

On Yarisworld I think it is more they really do not give hypermiling a fair try. Yes, there are some folks who seem serious but my reading has led me to believe they are only willing to go so far to get great mileage. They post about accelerating like grandma, but what is their vision of this… LOD of 90, zero to 60 in 12 seconds instead of 9? Not many of them are willing to keep at it, they try for a day or one tank then give up because they didn’t get the 50 mpg that is posted as achievable. But it is mostly a young crowd there and I do not fault them for doing what they do. People tell me that I was young once, although I find that hard to believe as I can’t recall it.

I do believe there are many converts there who simply do not post about getting over 40 mpg because of the… how to put this nicely... juvenile attacks. As Voodoo pointed out, he and Bailout do post tips and take some abuse for it. I have posted help and avoided backtalk while getting a few PM’s asking for more detailed explanations.

Over at vwvortex, most people don't really care. The stereotypical vortexer with a MkV car has a lowered Rabbit, 17" wheels, a Carbonio cold-air intake, and thought about putting a C2 turbo kit in. Most people over there are mostly about power instead of fuel economy. I know at least one guy over there who's gotten a 40+ mpg tank on his MkV Jetta, and he got well wishes mostly.

Yeah most don't care on nasioc, but they seem to report anything from 18 to 24mpg. I told them that time I got 38mpg, but even then everyone was talking about one other guy who got 39mpg. He later chimed in on his trip saying he just went 55mph with the cruise. He noted a large elevation drop, but he never mentioned anything about a tailwind. He said he distance drafted a semi.

I've dropped a few hints on the Pontiac forums (same car as my Buick), but people are mostly concerned with horsepower. I did get a PM from a guy about hypermiling techniques once.

I am a member on Honda-tech, and id say 90% of the people on there are not receptive at all to any words of wisdom or suggestions at all.

When I have mentioned some of the techniques I use, which include tire pressure increase, P and G, fas'ing, or anything like that they post like I have a third eye.

Its very annoying being that most hondas are the most responsive to hypermiling

Geonerd:
FWIW, probably anybody who does anything different tends to be viewed with suspicion. Partly because any change requires some effort and therefore is resisted. And certainly the news media have spun a derisory tone to get attention, which is key for them.

From your post, I get the impression that you're unaware that the whole drafting issue was laid on us by the media and AAA? We don't "draft 18-wheelers at death-defying distances" and in fact advise against it because it prevents one from using better FE methods.

The posts above explain that confrontation is coming from people on other auto forums who are fixated on the old "performance" concepts and react strongly against any suggestion of economy. And the people here aren't on the other forums to confront others, they're simply on the forums for the cars they own! I seriously doubt that many people here adopt "confrontational" tactics to get others to hypermile.

As for mild hypermiling methods, 10-20% just isn't going to get peoples' attention. They won't put extra effort into doing something that will net them so little. AAA's lame economical-driving recommendations have been posted for years and look how well that approach has worked.

The focus here has been on developing and sharing methods that are (a) safe and (b) effective, not "confronting" people.

Bottom line: if you believe what you have posted, what have you done to follow up on your beliefs and persuade others to adopt your approach?

I am a member on Honda-tech, and id say 90% of the people on there are not receptive at all to any words of wisdom or suggestions at all.

When I have mentioned some of the techniques I use, which include tire pressure increase, P and G, fas'ing, or anything like that they post like I have a third eye.

Its very annoying being that most hondas are the most responsive to hypermiling

I don't even have a membership at H-T for this very reason. If you're not ricing the car to the limit, you're the scum of the earth. The same goes for any other Honda forum I've come across, even the Odyssey one. :confused:

I'll admit the first few hypermiling articles drew fire with the emphasis on the edgier side. Even after that was finessed, many insisted on spreading misinformation like drafting.

Got a question for you Geonerd. Three or four lanes on I35E freeway and the PSL is 60 - I'm going 50 in the right lane. I usually tap the emergency flasher, and the vast majority of the would-be tailgaters pass with no incident, yet a few hang inches from me and become visibly irate. Geonerd - please explain to me how I "got in his way", was rude, was aggressive?

It's no accident that hypermilers have a bad reputation.

How well you'll be received will depend in large part on how you present your case. If you start talking about pushing your car across the parking lot, or coasting with the engine off and the car in neutral, most people will think "WTF is this?" and instantly tune you out. Emphasize something useful, yet not too far removed from Joe Sixpack's daily routine. Simple stoplight anticipation will net most folks an instant 10 to 20% MPG increase. Suggest that they knock 5mph off their freeway speed. Show the math explaining time lost vs. $ saved. Simple, effective, and non-confrontational is the theme. Ease them into it, and accept that many/most will not be willing to peruse MPG to the exclusion of all else. Don't bitch at them if they refuse to drive as slowly as you might. Don't tell them to pump their tires to 60PSI, or draft 18 wheelers at death-defying distances. ABOVE ALL, lose the "You're with us or you're against us" attitude. Drop the ego, get off the high horse, and stop making holier-than-thou statements such as accusing Joe of "supporting our enemies" if he doesn't drive the way you think he should.

As for those of you speaking in terms of 'battle lines' and 'cornered animals,' well, I doubt that sort of language will persuade very many of the unwashed masses to join you. Tone down the rhetoric and drop the extreme HM techniques, and you just might get somewhere. Frankly, I think some of you people are more interested in fluffing your ego and being 'in the right' than actually changing the world in any meaningful way.

Good luck Sentra.

Geonerd, try reading your rant - how is it helpful?

I drive going about my business and go out of my way to let others by, yet I wonder if you are also angry at me along with the tailgaters I mention. Those that know me (several of them here), have said: "Chuck - you are too hard on yourself", so how am I one of those egomanics you speak of? For most of the other members, they have not fancied themselves the best thing since sliced bread either. I've heard all my life people trying to do the right thing being attacked for vanity and other bad motives.

Geonerd, part of what is going on is most drivers simply speed while not paying much attention to what they are doing - I'm sure you know that. My desire is more modest than a nation of hypermilers - drivers that observe the speed limit. Of couse, I choose to hypermile when I'm comfortable with traffic conditions. When I spoke to a class and to the Dallas Morning News, I did not discuss the cutting edge hypermiling.

Ever read Dilbert? I'm sure Scott Adams could be called out as an arrogant know-it-all for pointing out countless idiotic situations at work. When many of us get off the road, we share similar moronic behavior here.

Hi Geonerd:

___Given you have had to fight 0 battles and have a similar experience with what we have achieved the past three years, it is quite possibly people like yourself hurt “Hypermiling”. Even pretending we tell anyone to pump their tires to 60 PSI, or promote “drafting 18 wheelers at death-defying distances” is foolish at its best and I can think of plenty of other adjectives to describe your post at its worst.

___You can press up your tires to whatever you want but the rest of that statement is propaganda spread by YOU. Having even mentioned that tells me you spend 0 hours per day here and have no idea what we are doing or why we are doing it.

If you start talking about pushing your car across the parking lot, or coasting with the engine off and the car in neutral, most people will think "WTF is this?" and instantly tune you out.
___Pushing a car for 3 foot to avoid 3 blocks of idling is something “you” should talk about intelligently instead of immediately waving your arms around like the sky is falling. I am certainly not going to start up a car to idle three blocks to please some Joe Six Pack and if you think you need to, you should consider where our fuel is actually coming from. Better yet, purchase a hybrid and learn why idling for three blocks is an exercise in futility.
Emphasize something useful, yet not too far removed from Joe Sixpack's daily routine. Simple stoplight anticipation will net most folks an instant 10 to 20% MPG increase. Suggest that they knock 5mph off their freeway speed. Show the math explaining time lost vs. $ saved.
___You haven’t a clue as to how we clinic journalists and the general public when the opportunity arises. As John said, Ecodriving has gotten us exactly nowhere the past 30-years and its time to start moving people in a new and more sustainable direction. If that means purchasing a hybrid or diesel, do it!
Simple, effective, and non-confrontational is the theme. Ease them into it, and accept that many/most will not be willing to peruse MPG to the exclusion of all else. Don't bitch at them if they refuse to drive as slowly as you might. Don't tell them to pump their tires to 60PSI, or draft 18 wheelers at death-defying distances. ABOVE ALL, lose the "You're with us or you're against us" attitude. Drop the ego, get off the high horse, and stop making holier-than-thou statements such as accusing Joe of "supporting our enemies" if he doesn't drive the way you think he should.
___You again have no idea what we promote or “TELL” anyone outside of this forum what to do or how to do it given the irrational quote above.
As for those of you speaking in terms of 'battle lines' and 'cornered animals,' well, I doubt that sort of language will persuade very many of the unwashed masses to join you. Tone down the rhetoric and drop the extreme HM techniques, and you just might get somewhere. Frankly, I think some of you people are more interested in fluffing your ego and being 'in the right' than actually changing the world in any meaningful way.
___It is a battle line and to burn fuel for no reason (the US is really good at this) is not only unsustainable, it is practically a sin. The battle lines are laid down by others in the various forums and media. Nobody goes out of their way to attack TOV, 8th Gen Civic, the WSJ or NY Times but there are plenty of those sites and media outlets members and staff that will attack us on a whim.

___Now that you have been educated as to CleanMPG’s mission and intent, I can only hope you will take a more positive and responsible approach when discussing hypermiling instead of the BS you appear to be circulating on your own.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Geonerd,

I would say to you come try hypermiling, you may surprise yourself when you see what you can actually do.

Hi Darrell:

___The good thing is you are at the forefront over there. The bad thing is all of those individuals will flip and say you are drafting or doing something dangerous or you are a “****”.

___Fortunately, we all know the realities and look forward to hearing about your first post revealing your "domination" of the group. A few will get it and come around to driving the speed limits and setting up their car properly while taking a far more anticipatory and defensive approach to driving vs. the reactionary type mode they are probably currently in...

___Let us know how the battle lines are drawn when the time comes. If you need help, just ask.

___Good Luck and congrats on the success you have achieved so far!

___Wayne

I am on Scionlife also. The first gen xB forums are *mostly* pretty respectful, with a few trolls. I think a good many of the xB owners there know it would be a lot easier to increase their MPG Vs trying to turn their cars into a race car. Of course, the guys getting under 30 HAVE to be flogging the hell out of their boxes to get such high fuel consumption. I have had my box since new and have never had a tank under 30.

Also as a Yarisworld member here.

Check this out...

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=307035#post307035

The very last post in the thread bugs me. It clearly shows the Mod's view on the particular subject of Tire PSI.

Hi Dave:

___A street racer with a busted front end was running 45 psi for fuel economy reasons??? We can all do the math on that one...

___To run Auto-cross with an Insight, the best lap times come from the better grip provided at 45 psi than the 38 or under placard. I do not know about the Yaris but up to breaking loose, the tires will provide better grip at higher pressures.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne,

I should have elaborated. It shows what Voodoo and Woodchuck were saying about the skewed view. The thread was not locked on a bad example of hypermiling-tire pressure for nothing. All the last poster said was his belief and listed none of the other reasons which may have contributed to the accident.-- This was the last word and thus is the last message to any reader who may stumble upon it in the future.

I hate complaining about other forums, I rarely do it. The equation for the message they conveyed was

[tire at max or more] + [driving "normal"] = [accident waiting to happen]

Enter ONE example


[tire at max or more] + [driving "normal"] = [accident happened]

END....proven. Thread locked... No retort needed.

Hi Dave:

___Thanks for the update and I concur...

___Similarly, I had yet another Journalist diss Hypermiling within his own 1,000 Mile Tank – Ford Fusion Hybrid Challenge write-up in a small but definitely smack down way :(

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=12856

___To consider that every one of these journalists (100% of them) break the speed limit each and every day and than diss hypermiling because they cannot achieve similar results pisses me off.

___Anyone remember the Audi Challenge? Damned Journalists were within 3’ of 18-wheelers and those are some of the some journalists writing their “idea” as to what Hypermiling is.

___Geonerd, take heed because this is the type of crap “we” battle each and every day and the battle did not start here but on your friendly neighborhood auto journalist’s media outlet site.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Similarly, I had yet another Journalist diss Hypermiling within his own 1,000 Mile Tank – Ford Fusion Hybrid Challenge write-up in a small but definitely smack down way :(

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=12856

I commented on why they intentionally claim drafting and rolling stops is both common and condoned hypermiling, then called it OP/ED - not professional reporting.

At best it was lazy reporting, but I suspect it was a smear. :mad:

It's no accident that hypermilers have a bad reputation.

How well you'll be received will depend in large part on how you present your case. If you start talking about pushing your car across the parking lot, or coasting with the engine off and the car in neutral, most people will think "WTF is this?" and instantly tune you out. Emphasize something useful, yet not too far removed from Joe Sixpack's daily routine. Simple stoplight anticipation will net most folks an instant 10 to 20% MPG increase. Suggest that they knock 5mph off their freeway speed. Show the math explaining time lost vs. $ saved. Simple, effective, and non-confrontational is the theme. Ease them into it, and accept that many/most will not be willing to peruse MPG to the exclusion of all else. Don't bitch at them if they refuse to drive as slowly as you might. Don't tell them to pump their tires to 60PSI, or draft 18 wheelers at death-defying distances. ABOVE ALL, lose the "You're with us or you're against us" attitude. Drop the ego, get off the high horse, and stop making holier-than-thou statements such as accusing Joe of "supporting our enemies" if he doesn't drive the way you think he should.

As for those of you speaking in terms of 'battle lines' and 'cornered animals,' well, I doubt that sort of language will persuade very many of the unwashed masses to join you. Tone down the rhetoric and drop the extreme HM techniques, and you just might get somewhere. Frankly, I think some of you people are more interested in fluffing your ego and being 'in the right' than actually changing the world in any meaningful way.

Good luck Sentra.


I noticed that after Geonerd posted his rant at around 2:50am his time he never bothered to return (so far). Sorry, spams and flamebaits when the forum is empty in the wee hours of the morning suggests gutlessness. Geonerd knows we unambiguously condemn drafting 18-wheelers, yet like a grade schoolyard punk accuses us of that - knowing it's completely false.

Coasting with the engine off in neutral was common during US WWII Gas rationing and other times and places in the world when gas was very scarce - they did not seem to thing that was so taboo...is what Joe Sixpack thinks in 2009 a good guideline?

Geonerd, I'm at a loss when you tell us to be less confrontational and you make a post like this - if your post was non-confrontational, I'm not sure I want to see what you consider a confrontational one. :eek:

Geonerd, I'm sure that calling us a bunch of self-righteous egomaniacs is the most diplomatic way get us to listen to you...has that approach worked with you? Reminds me of the smack directed at Prius drivers in general.

This must be the kind of hypermiling interview you imagine:
Reporter introduces me and I acknowledge I will save the world in a voice so posh that the late William F Buckley and the British Royal Family seem like hillbillies. I chide the reporter to take care in my car as it will be on exhibit in the Smithsonian. As I'm driving, my head is cocked back as if wearing reading glasses (or smug). Comment on nearly every car on the road driving foolishly somehow. Approaches an 18-wheeler, deploys a tow hook, then coasts for ten miles with the engine off, including the A/C (it's August in Dallas). Gets off course by five miles after decoupling the tractor/trailer, but finds another to tow behind. Rolls thru stop sign in front of the Richardson Police parking lot and finish the shoot at 150mpg

I took a few liberties in my "hypermiling shoot" but not many more than Geonerd's rant a couple of days ago. The thread starter was not directing it at Geonerd, yet he reacted that way. No one here is trying to thug up on newbies into using every hypermiling technique. We do get onto speeders, but that's not the same as someone going the speed limit or trying out some of the techniques here. I did not do them all overnight - took me a long time. For some reason, I never screamed at drivers that were getting enviously better FE.

I'm posting this for everyone else, as I suspect Geonerd's post was a gutless exit

Just in case Geonerd returns, I'm sure he is going to have another emotionally charged post after waiting to let plenty of remarks pile on.

Regardless, I'm not counting on a rational response if he ever returns.

I am a member on Honda-tech, and id say 90% of the people on there are not receptive at all to any words of wisdom or suggestions at all.

I think you're being generous. Last I checked in there, at least 90% were uninterested in anything other than behaving like antisocial teenagers in a locker room.

...I have found that http://www.crxcommunity.com is a decent site. There is still the population of, umm, unsympathetic folks, but there are enough adults (or at least people who behave like adults!) that some alternate opnions are tolerated. Our FuelShy is a member there, which is how I found this place. :)

One of the guys has a turbo setup that he has tuned to run quite lean at light (cruising) loads and modest RPMs. He gets quite decent mileage on the freeway--but he can put his foot down once he gets to the track and turn in respectable times. It's a nice trick if you can pull it off!

Heh, maybe there's a place out there for "www.grownuphondaowners.com"... :D

-soD

I think you're being generous. Last I checked in there, at least 90% were uninterested in anything other than behaving like antisocial teenagers in a locker room.


You've just described most forums on the internet. Although I would say 4chan is nearly 99.999% like that (come to think of it, I can't believe I brought up 4chan...).

I'm pleasantly surprised so far that the Scionlife folks have been quite civil about hypermiling and fuel economy topics. Maybe they had their rabbit v. ptarmigan - er, ricer v. old fuddy-duddy wars beck in their ancient history.

Glad to hear it. Keep piling up those impressive numbers and adding to the database here which cannot be refuted.

I lifted this quote from the link to the Hartford advocate article that Wayne posted.
coast up to red lights and stop signs to avoid fuel waste and brake ware

Brake WHAT??????
WARE?????
Perhaps you meant WEAR?????
This guy is a professional, don't try this at home!:biglol::biglol::biglol::biglol::biglol::biglol:

Maybe they meant break ware - you know, where your loose earthenware, dinnerware, and stoneware gets tossed around and broken when you jam on your brakes ;).

Maybe they meant break ware - you know, where your loose earthenware, dinnerware, and stoneware gets tossed around and broken when you jam on your brakes ;).

:D :D :D

Members at www.asog.net were actually very receptive. The moderator on that site actually created a section for fuel economy and I now moderate that section. A few others sent pm's or started threads with questions and actually improved their mileage.

At work however, o boy. I get slammed for going less than 35mph in a 30mph zone!:eek:

After getting pulled over going 61 in a 55, no more. I will not let another officer have that leverage on me...

The members on tercelonline.com generally just ignore my build threads and what not. Some are interested, but very few are willing to try anything. They do believe the mileage that I am getting though which is nice.

I have, however, gotten a few to check out cmpg and the like. I even had one guy locally show up at the milwaukee hybrid group meet. He went for driver training and is even coming to the local EV build days here. That has been pretty cool.

Got my first troll on Scionlife in a mileage thread. The guy lumped tailgating and FASing as extreme. But nobody advocated drafting. Anyway, I countered with the unsafe tailgating I see every day (70% of the cars passing me), and an incident yesterday when I wasn't even hypermiling.

Maybe this qualifies for a JOTD message. I was driving on I-10 in Phoenix yesterday, when a traffic slow-up occurred. I slowed down, but the guy behind me decided to accelerate and pass me. He zipped by me about 30 mph faster (I may have been going 35-40), and finally realized he was going to slam into the rear end of the stopped cars up ahead. The jerk locked up his brakes, skidded around facing backwards, and barely missed hitting the retaining wall. Speed causes many more accidents than going slow does.

The troll may blame you because you were going slow the speeder felt the need to do so because of your actions.

(I am not taking the troll's side nor am I blaming you, just playing the opposing view for the moment. Now back to my normal self.)

What an idiot behind (or in front of) you.

On vwvortex, no one really cares all that much. (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4415325) The worst response I got was that it's boring driving slowly.

The troll may blame you because you were going slow the speeder felt the need to do so because of your actions.

(I am not taking the troll's side nor am I blaming you, just playing the opposing view for the moment. Now back to my normal self.)

What an idiot behind (or in front of) you.

I prefer my Idiots in front, far enough in front for me to dodge the pieces when they pay a very high price for their few seconds saved.

regards
gary

Hi All:

___This all follows fuel prices... When gas was $4.00 + last July, the H2 was the scourge of the roadway and discussion about 0 to 60 mph/100 kph times around the world dropped off dramatically vs. the 50+ mpg discussions.

___When a Nuke goes off or a big suicide attack is accomplished in a European State or the US and it is found to be funded by our Petro-Dollar's, maybe this time they will get it.

___I hope when people due speak about hypermiling that they push the techniques for the car we are driving today with an eye on what we should be driving tomorrow.

___Good Luck

___Wayne