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I've read various things online here (and elsewhere) that say Honda's IMA is better for steady-state driving, while Toyota's HSD is better for up/down/stop/go (in-town, rolling hills).

Here's my HSD vs IMA debate; maybe you can settle it? Getting a hybrid isn't in my near future, but I do love to ponder things.:confused:


I have two major routes to work once I leave my hometown.

One is flat, straight, 45-55 mph posted, and has a few red lights in the 9 mile stretch. (Route 11, "The IMA route")

The other is one large climb at the start, and then it drops down again and is 45-55 mph posted, no stops, and rolling hills at a slow climb. Lots of FAS/EOC opportunities; it ends at a red light at the bottom of a hill. (Route 93/Fowlersville Road, "The HSD Route")

Both routes end with the same climb up a hill to the office where I work. What's better? A Prius on the rolling hills back roads, or some Honda IMA love on the flats?

The real question is, Which route is likely to consume the least amount of fuel overall?

The interstate is available as well, but I discount it due to construction and speed.

Option 1, Route 11: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=204+E+3rd+St,+Berwick,+PA+18603&daddr=920+Central+Rd,+Bloomsburg,+PA+17815&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=41.0238,-76.423752&sspn=0.008904,0.018711&g=920+Central+Rd,+Bloomsburg,+PA+17815&ie=UTF8&z=12


Option 2, 93/Fowlersville: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=204+E+3rd+St,+Berwick,+PA+18603&daddr=41.056314,-76.37352+to:920+Central+Rd,+Bloomsburg,+PA+17815&hl=en&geocode=&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=12&via=1&rtol=0,2&sll=41.03393,-76.32805&sspn=0.142436,0.299377&ie=UTF8&z=12


Option 3, Interstate: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=204+E+3rd+St,+Berwick,+PA+18603&daddr=41.036377,-76.368027+to:920+Central+Rd,+Bloomsburg,+PA+17815&hl=en&geocode=&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=12&via=1&rtol=0,2&sll=41.03393,-76.32805&sspn=0.142436,0.299377&ie=UTF8&z=12

It depends upon exactly what IMA implementation you are considering. My route has lots of up and down and lots of stops, but I can handle that with the MT Insight and pull startling mileage out of the hat. I wouldn't be able to do as well in a MT Civic hybrid simply because it is so hard to stay out of assist in the low gears, and the HCH-II would fare even worse with the loss of bump starting. The new Insight appears to be somewhat better about keeping out of assist in the low gears so it likely would perform better than the HCH-II in the environment I'm in, but probably not as well as the MT HCH-I.

For highway work, the Prius is definitely more difficult to pull high numbers in, though that might be improved a bit in the Prius-III due out very soon. I really like the Prius (particularly after I saw how it was able to handle the last 3mi of my commute home from work so easily while the traffic and lights really hurt in my Insight and Elantra), but I hate the warm up hit.

I haven't had the Civics on my route (only Laurie's just twice so far) enough to give solid numbers but I can tell you that I was nudging up against 100mpg (afternoon) on my route in Jud's Prius last May when I had it for a week. I drove Laurie's HCH in cooler weather and I think I hit high 60mpg range for a morning commute? I'm not sure what it would be worth in the afternoon in favorable conditions.

By comparison, my Elantra (with heavy P&G and FASing) is consistently worth over 70mpg in decent weather on that route, and I've come close to 80mpg once. The insight has been over 140mpg several times on the commute home with similar application of technique.

I know that is generic info, but possibly it will give you a better feel for how the different tech handles stop and go, hilly routes?

It does help, and yet. Some of it is things that I knew, and some of it raises more questions. I knew the IMA had "variations," but I didn't realize they were that glaringly different from each other. Other things 'moot-out' some of your points.

I can drive manual (and much prefer it!), my wife cannot (and has little motivation to learn). While this doesn't mean much as all current hybrids are non-manual, it would affect the purchase of a used Insight-I.

Obviously, I live in PA. I have a non-heated garage that I'm slowly insulating over time (recycle - use packing peanuts to insulate your garage like me!). It's non-heated, but does have electric. Which getup is best suited to survive our winters? I realize that you at least are in MN, Right Lane, so I figure you'll be good for that question.

Personally, I don't need very much car at all to get to work - an Insight-I is PERFECT for me.

My wife doesn't drive too much; to the point of we thought about dropping to one car.

When the whole family goes anywhere, I drive. I prefer my car for all the various reasons that she hates it for.

We NEED a minimum of one car capable of seating 4 (2 adults, 2 kids/carseats), carrying a stroller, and accoutrements (basically a mid- to full-size sedan or wagon).

My wife LOATHES hatchbacks. She even hates the shape of the HCH-II - says it "looks like a frog" and she "doesn't like bubble-cars."

My garage is non-heated and I don't yet have an engine block heater in the Insight. I put a full grill block on it and watch the temps on a Scangauge, removing pieces as it gets warmer out. An EBH would help for the morning commute, but not enough to get me anywhere near summer mileage when it is 15F below zero.

Insulating the garage is also on my list but I have other expenses to chew through first. :p

I'm assuming you mean the HI-II when you talk about a bubble car? That would take out the Prius as well. Too bad...

If you don't have to share it and can keep the Lumina for the occasional "family duty" trips, I'd go for the MT HI-I... but then I'm biased. ;) If you have to have a back seat, I'd try to locate a MT HCH-I... just remember that no HCH to date has a fold-able rear seat. It is expected that the next iteration will remedy this, but I don't think that is due out until 2012.

I split the difference by keeping my Elantra (which my daughter still hasn't been in yet after almost 5mo!), but that car is in relatively good shape and has been paid off for quite some time.

We'd most likely keep "her" car (99 Grand Prix, 3100 engine), she hates the Lumina (soon to be nicknamed 'Moonracer'(separate story)).

She hates on the shape of the HCH-II, but understands that most likely more and more cars will be that shape and in the future she'll probably have to resign herself to driving something that shape.

Hating on hatchbacks kicks out the Prius-II, Prius-III, and Insight-II.

Which for the moment, leaves the HI-I, the HCH-I, and the Prius-I. I leave the HI-I in there because it'd never be the "family car" and would always only be "my car." Thus, whenever we were to go anywhere it would be NOT my car that was driven.

They made HCH-I's in MT?

Yes -- through '05. It was lean burn capable just like the MT Insight.

At around 48mph on the highway I was able to keep the instantaneous between 70 and 80mpg while using DWL in cooler temps. It is a solid car but a devil to keep out of assist in the low gears. If you get a MT Insight older than 2005 (2000-2004) you can install a clutch bypass switch which will prevent charge or assist. This is handy when attacking hills or needing a faster take off from a stop without impacting the state of charge. Unfortunately, no such solution exists for the MT HCH-I, but if you can baby it through 3rd gear you'll be fine.

I'm a fairly tall guy (6'5") and I didn't quite fit in Laurie's HCH. It's a wonderful car but I had to take off my shoes to get my knee to a non-painful geometry. If you are shorter you shouldn't have any issues with it.

I'm surprised your wife doesn't like the new design of the Civic (which is pretty much the same across all models now -- hybrid included). I never would have characterized that as looking like a "bubble."

I think it's due to the minimal change in angle of attack from the hood to the windshield. The hood needs to be more horizontal and the windshield more vertical for her snooty tastses. But don't go too far - she loathes the Scion xB for it's "shoebox" look.


I'm about 90% sure that there's just no pleasing her.

Well, some people are like that -- but I'm sure there are other redeeming qualities involved. :)

It sounds like either the MT HCH-I or MT Insight would work out for you. Alternatively, you could find a late model MT Echo and hypermile the heck out of it?

I'm about 90% sure that there's just no pleasing her.

One for the ages...