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http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/AmericanFlag.jpg Moshe Leib lost his lawsuit to operate this Toyota Prius as a limousine in federal court. (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/feb/20/court-prius-lacks-luxury-be-hillsborough-limo/news-metro/)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2009_Toyota_Prius_Touring.jpgRich Shopes – Tampa Bay Tribune (www2.tbo.com) – Feb. 20, 2009

2009 Toyota Prius-II Touring -- 46 mpgUS combined on the 08 EPA and an AT-PZEV emissions rating.

Who is to say a limo has to seat 4, 6, 8 or more people anyway? The courts I guess :( -- Ed.

A Toyota Prius is not a limousine, according to a panel of federal judges.

In a decision affirming a lower court ruling, the U.S. Court of Appeals on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit brought by Pinellas County limo company owner Moshe Leib after Hillsborough regulators said it was a stretch calling the gas-stingy Prius a limousine.

"I'm disappointed. They totally sided against the Prius' environmental benefits," he said.

Leib filed his lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Tampa in September 2007 after the county's Public Transportation Commission denied a request to operate his black 2007 Prius as a limo...

"What do you mean by a luxury car?" said Leib. "In San Francisco, New York and L.A. they call it one there." ... http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/feb/20/court-prius-lacks-luxury-be-hillsborough-limo/news-metro/

As usual, government is not the solution to our problems - government is the problem.

wow...so this is what it boils down to. This is how the freedoms get taken away...one by one. I have a feeling all too well of where this is heading.

wow...so this is what it boils down to. This is how the freedoms get taken away...one by one. I have a feeling all too well of where this is heading.

We're all going to be driving hitler mobiles fueled off of dead terrorists?

We're all going to be driving hitler mobiles fueled off of dead terrorists?


In the form of a GM "offroad" vehicle exempt from FE requirements due to a loophole...

The article didn't address it, but I'm really curious what that commission's definition of "limousine" was.

We're all going to be driving hitler mobiles fueled off of dead terrorists?

I believe it's pronounced "turist."

I expect to see more legal issues like this. Taxicabs, limousines, and "black car" services are all highly regulated in most localities.

"Luxury" is subjective, but I don't think it is unreasonable to regulate size & capacity. There is a certain expectation of carrying capacity of both people and luggage. If the guy wants to run a car service with a Prius, I don't have a problem with it as long as customers know in advance its a Prius.

WRT taxis, I think from a legal standpoint there needs to be some minimums. A party of 4 and their luggage should have a reasonable expectation of hailing a cab at an airport or hotel that can accommodate them and get them and their stuff to their destination. It shouldn't take a special call and an additional delay to summon the proper vehicle for the job.

I think mid-size or stretched compact hybrid SUVs would do the job, as well as minivans, or maybe conventional or hybrid sedans (most of which are about as roomy as a non-stretched crown victoria anyway.) I love the LTI London Taxi, but that probably won't catch on in North America. It will be interesting to see what near-future cabs will be like, but they probably won't be Priuses on a large scale. My guess is that they'll probably be Fords though, specialized versions of the Escape, Fusion, and maybe the next Taurus and that small Van.

The article didn't address it, but I'm really curious what that commission's definition of "limousine" was.
The Law: “Limousine” means any motor vehicle for hire not equipped with a
taximeter, with a capacity for 15 passengers or less, including the driver.

The commission's rule: 1 .15 “Limousine” means any motor vehicle for hire not equipped with a taximeter, with the capacity
for 15 passengers or less, including the driver. This definition consists of vehicles which are
recognized by the industry as “luxury” vehicles, that are considered as high-end luxury vehicles
by the manufacturer and vehicles that have been uniquely modified so as to provide “luxury”
limousine service. The “luxury” quality of vehicles will be determined by assessing aesthetics of
the interior and exterior of the vehicle, amenities provided to the passenger, spaciousness and
comparison to current industry standards for vehicles performing limousine service in
Hillsborough County. Unless otherwise indicated, use of the word “limousine” within these Rules
shall be meant to include all varieties of limousines discussed in these rules, collectively.
Limousines can be sub-categorized as follows:
a. “Stretch Limousine” or a sedan/SUV model that was manufactured or remanufactured with an
extended wheel base or;
b. “Limousine Sedans” or luxury vehicles with space for at least two passengers behind the
driver and additional space behind those passengers for luggage, or;
c. “Sport Utility Vehicles” (SUV) that are top-of-the-line models and have the luxury package
options included to provide a luxury service, or;
d. “Limousine Buses” that are used for passenger transport for-hire. These buses can have
forward facing seating or can be modified for circular or “party” seating.
The Director, subject to Commission review, may develop and update a list of vehicles which
qualify as Limousine Sedans and SUVs.

The Prius is being used for airport runs with max capacity of 2, all pre booked reservation, it is not a stinky taxi! We are droping off at the airport, but not alowed to pick up. We are going to use the AVIS model of WEDRIVEU to go around the commission. I do not think that they will go against AVIS, nobody in the country did... ;)

Moshe

Moshe!
Welcome to CleanMPG and let me Thank YOU for your perseverance on the Prius limo issue. If you have an email address or contact info for the commission or person you are up against, please list it or pm a mod or xcel with it.

Thank you!

This is the commissions website:
http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/publictransportation/

The Chairman is Commissioner Kevin White: http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/bocc/commissioners/white.cfm

You can also visit my website for more info:
http://www.tbelimo.com/

Moshe

Moshe

I've sent an email to the commissioner. I'll let you guys know if I get a response. Good luck and I hope they decide that they should allow your Prius to be considered a luxury car fit for limo services. :)

p.s. Welcome to cleanmpg ;)

I wouldn't even try to suggest he Prius should be considered a luxury vehicle...its not. They are perfectly comfortable, but not luxurious.
Instead we should question why a vehicle has to be in the luxury catagoy to be a limo. I understand that if I were a high school graduate calling a limo service for me and my date, I might be annoyed if a Prius unexpected showed up, even if it was black. Perhaps the commision should consider requirements on disclosure. When ever you rent a limo, they should specify type (including passenger & cargo capacity) at time of reservation. Prohibiting the Prius is unwarted, but requiring disclosure that the limo will be a Prius should be mandatory (along with all other makes/models).

Doesn't the whole problem relate to how limo services evolved into a near taxi service, and the differences in licensing? Most cities tightly controlled taxis to prevent there from being too many taxis for the amount of service (no body could earn an honest wage). But limos were intended for occasional, and admittidly usually luxury, service. They often arrived before the passenger and waited for that specific person. You weren't often weren't hiring them for just transportation, but for a period of time during which they would provide transport as needed. But at some point, hotels seemed to start calling limos instead of taxis. Often the limos were cheaper, but other than the fact they were specificlly called instead of being hailed down, they were pretty much doing a job which used to be the taxi's domain. As such, taxi companies started pushing regulators to limit limos so they couldn't undercut taxis.

Not really a good situation for anyone, but understandable. Frankly I have had few comfortable taxi rides and usually seem to end up with people who barely understand the territory. On the other hand, I have had only one limo ride with a problem, and the driver got on his phone to his disptach and they worked out the navigation problem. Heck, if I knew the city, I'd have rented a car. So there seems to be a massive discrepancy between the services...at least in cities like Chicago and New York.

Since taxis pushed for more agressive limits on limos, I wish the cites had turned it back on the taxis as well. I'd like to see requirements where all pckups/dropoffs were logged and those logs inspected for problems (too long, too far). I'd also like to see yearly tests on the drivers (if they don't already) that not only test driving competence, but also navigational competence for areas they cover. And with GPSs down around 100, I'd like to see them required to cary them to. It would be even better if they could be operated remotely so they could call their disptach and state the destination & the disptach center would program the GPS, however that sort of tech may not even exist, and certainly would be more expensive.

Doesn't the whole problem relate to how limo services evolved into a near taxi service, and the differences in licensing? Most cities tightly controlled taxis to prevent there from being too many taxis for the amount of service (no body could earn an honest wage).

After reading the article, this was my thought too.

Is this not so much a question of luxury but how the cars that have previously fallen into that class are licensed and taxed?

I think the problem is in the definition of "limousine". No matter how you look at it, a Prius doesn't fit the definition on the books.

Part of this revolves around WHO writes the definition. The commissioner might only enforce the definition. So the key would be convincing whoever writes the definition to change it. That would require some push from within the county - and unfortunately, Moshe lives outside the county.

No offense, Moshe, but your lawsuit was doomed from the start. The judge only had one way he could rule and that was that the Prius did not meet the definition.

No offence taken here! I want to respond to the term “limousine”. The law says “any car”, the commission rules defines it as a “luxury”. The court was wrong in ruling against the Prius and I am trying to find support (money, attorney) to bring it to the Supreme Court. If NY OZOLIMO and CA ECOLIMO can use Toyota Prius, so do I. The term for my service is “Black Car Service”. It is a pre arrange transportation, mostely to and from the airport. If you have a 7 AM flight, you are not going to call a Taxi at 4 AM to take you to the airport because you don’t know if and when it’s going to show up – this is why you use a black car service, I will be there at 4:15 AM ready for you with a clean, non smoking, top maintained car. The driver is not going to be drunk or on drugs with a funny smell to him.
And the best thing – most of the times, it is cheaper then a Taxi who takes you the long way home. So again, there is the Bling Bling stretch Limo, Taxi and a Black car Service.

Moshe

Maybe I missed something. Who is "the commision", and are they acting under the authority of any legislation?

Was the term "luxury" in print from the commision before this whole issue started, and more importantly, before you starting using a Prius as a limo?

I am sorry for the long reply, please feel free to ask questions!

The Commission is the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission. An Independent Special District created by an act of the Florida Legislature and the only such regulatory creature regulating nonpublic forms of transportation in the State.

The Legislature has charged with regulating various motor carriers operating vehicles which are defined as "public vehicles" and the special act defines these vehicles in groupings including "limousine" which is; " any motor vehicle for hire not equipped with a taximeter, with a capacity for 15 passengers or less, including the driver".

The HCPTC is mandated under the act to adopt rules in accordance with the Florida Administrative Procedure Act (APA), Chapter 120 Florida Statutes. Under this law, any rule that enlarges or modifies the specific provision of law being implemented. As such, the definition of limousine adopted into rule by the HCPTC clearly is a violation of Florida General Law:


“Limousine” means any motor vehicle for hire not equipped with a taximeter, with the capacity for 15 passengers or less, including the driver. This definition consists of vehicles which are recognized by the industry as “luxury” vehicles, that are considered as high-end luxury vehicles by the manufacturer and vehicles that have been uniquely modified so as to provide “luxury” limousine service. The “luxury” quality of vehicles will be determined by assessing aesthetics of the interior and exterior of the vehicle, amenities provided to the passenger, spaciousness and comparison to current industry standards for vehicles performing limousine service in Hillsborough County. Unless otherwise indicated, use of the word “limousine” within these Rules shall mean to include all varieties of limousines discussed in these rules, collectively. Limousines can be sub-categorized as follows:

A. “Stretch Limousine” or a sedan/SUV model that was manufactured or remanufactured with an extended wheel base or;

B. “Limousine Sedans” or luxury vehicles with space for at least two passengers behind the driver and additional space behind those passengers for luggage, or;

C. “Sport Utility Vehicles” (SUV that are top-of-the-line models and have luxury package options included to provide luxury service, or;

D. “Limousine Buses” that are used for passenger transport for-hire. These buses can have forward facing seating or can be modified for circular or “party” seating.

So, though the PRIUS does not meet the definition given under the "rules" of the HCPTC, it most certainly meets the definition given under the Special Act.

Unfortunately my Lawyer kind of slid around Law v. Rule instead of directly attacking the Constitutionality of the rule violating mandates to adopt rules in accordance with the APA as well as the rule violating the specific mandates given under the APA:

Section 120.52 provides what are deemed to be invalid rules as well as definition of law implemented:

(8) "Invalid exercise of delegated legislative authority" means action that goes beyond the powers, functions, and duties delegated by the Legislature. A proposed or existing rule is an invalid exercise of delegated legislative authority if any one of the following applies:

(c) The rule enlarges, modifies, or contravenes the specific provisions of law implemented, citation to which is required by s. 120.54(3)(a)1.;

(d) The rule is vague, fails to establish adequate standards for agency decisions, or vests unbridled discretion in the agency;

(e) The rule is arbitrary or capricious. A rule is arbitrary if it is not supported by logic or the necessary facts; a rule is capricious if it is adopted without thought or reason or is irrational; or

(f) The rule imposes regulatory costs on the regulated person, county, or city which could be reduced by the adoption of less costly alternatives that substantially accomplish the statutory objectives.

(9) "Law implemented" means the language of the enabling statute being carried out or interpreted by an agency through rulemaking

Moshe

Ricardo, a Federal Judge has ruled that the Toyota Prius does not meet the definition as a luxury vehicle, therefore their is now way that it could be classified as such. Not only that their is a perceived deception in advertising when someone calls a limo company and request a limo, and a small prius pulls up that's a problem. Perception is reality in most cases especially when the majority of the general public considers a limo to be one thing and they get another.

Thanks for your comments and concerns. Their is no doubt the Prius has it's place and it's classification but as LIMO status I don't see it.


I received a response from the commissioner, contemplating what I should respond with. Let me know if there are any comments.

Wow. That sure highlights the limitations of spellchecking. :eek:

Both d' commissioneur and komputaer :D

Spellcheck would not help with the carnal misuse of their/there!:eyebrow:

Wow. That sure highlights the limitations of spellchecking. :eek:

TBLimo, are you possibly going about this the hard way through trying to fight the commission?

Their denial was on the basis that the Prius isn't "Luxurious" enough. Have them define that, or make a definition of specs of your own and see if they approve. You might be able to make a minimum investment in your Prius and be able to qualify as a "luxury" Prius.

Example specs:
Aftermarket Leather seatcoverings ~$2000
Dyna mat (for quiet cabin) ~$500
Satellite radio ~ $200
etc

Spellcheck would not help with the carnal misuse of their/there!:eyebrow:

lol, I'm sure he meant that the spell checker could figure out when the word is spelt wrong, but can't figure out if it's the right word.

Grammar checker anyone?

Here is the email I sent:

Subject: Tampa Bay Limo Service

Message: Hello Mr. White,

I hope this day greets you in good health. You seem to have accomplished quite a bit of success and good decisions always seem to be of assistance in such a record.

I am a 23 yr old recent college graduate with a major in Mechanical Engineering and a minor in Mathematics. I am currently employed with Mohawk Innovative Technology, a private engineering firm located in Albany NY. We also work on projects for the federal gov't.

Mr. White, we are in an age and times of change and there are issues that we face each day which need to be addressed accordingly.

On the discussions board of www.cleanmpg.com of which I'm a moderator, I had come upon a discussion in regards to your decision about the Toyota Prius not meeting the standards to be considered a limousine. I would like to say that in our current predicament of economic turmoil and hardship, even the smallest of decisions can have the largest impact on the nation.

I urge you, Mr. White, to reconsider the benefits of allowing such an efficient automobile to be embraced in the Hillsborough County as a limousine.

TBLimo, are you possibly going about this the hard way through trying to fight the commission?

Their denial was on the basis that the Prius isn't "Luxurious" enough. Have them define that, or make a definition of specs of your own and see if they approve. You might be able to make a minimum investment in your Prius and be able to qualify as a "luxury" Prius.

Example specs:
Aftermarket Leather seatcoverings ~$2000
Dyna mat (for quiet cabin) ~$500
Satellite radio ~ $200
etc

The prius HAS black leather seatcovering. What does a lincoln town car has for luxury?
The only thing I can do is ABOLISH the commission and I am working on it with my rep.

I just have to put my two cents in... if i called a limo service and ordered one... and a prius showed up, stretched of not, i will not be getting in that vehicle. called a prius a limo takes away from peoples rights, not give them their rights. people have the right to expect a certain description means something. if i got an order for pepsi i would not deliver orange juice.

sometime standards are there for a reason. control is needed in society to a certain extent. i am not against making a limo environmentally friendly. given their size it should be easy to make one that is a plug in only vehicle, with a 300 miles driving range. and the quiet ride should add to the luxury, or at least reduce the weight of the vehicle (i know that is normally not the case of EV's, but with a limo's large engine that could be removed, and the lack of a huge gas tank, and even sound-deadening materials, as well as other stuff the weight could conceivably go down).

what i am saying is, in no way should everything be sacrificed for the sake of looking environmentally friendly.

in my honest opinion, EV's are currently a waste of time, considering that a diesel could give better millage at lower costs. doesn't mean we give up on EV's, but we should accept them as a still emerging technology that has a way to go still. and not try to put them where they don't belong.

I just have to put my two cents in... if i called a limo service and ordered one... and a prius showed up, stretched of not, i will not be getting in that vehicle. called a prius a limo takes away from peoples rights, not give them their rights. people have the right to expect a certain description means something. if i got an order for pepsi i would not deliver orange juice.

sometime standards are there for a reason. control is needed in society to a certain extent. i am not against making a limo environmentally friendly. given their size it should be easy to make one that is a plug in only vehicle, with a 300 miles driving range. and the quiet ride should add to the luxury, or at least reduce the weight of the vehicle (i know that is normally not the case of EV's, but with a limo's large engine that could be removed, and the lack of a huge gas tank, and even sound-deadening materials, as well as other stuff the weight could conceivably go down).

what i am saying is, in no way should everything be sacrificed for the sake of looking environmentally friendly.

in my honest opinion, EV's are currently a waste of time, considering that a diesel could give better millage at lower costs. doesn't mean we give up on EV's, but we should accept them as a still emerging technology that has a way to go still. and not try to put them where they don't belong.


The Prius is for people who REQUEST it.

either ways...what's being sacrificed???:confused:

Your opinion is ust that, your opinion. The facts about EV's remains that they're a viable option. We cannot go with just one or the other.

I don't get why everyone insist we can't have both.

hey i never said we cant have both, i said that we should recognize where each one would have an advantage. i drive a Toyota diesel pickup, and average over 35mpg. Given the aero drag on this, thats damn good. and for the expense of making it and EV, it wont be worth it, as any gain would be minimal. thats what i mean by not putting EV's where they don't belong.

however, the thing is, as far as i can see, the way the laws are written, there is no mandatory disclosure on the the type of vehicle that would be used. now i know you say you would be telling your customers. but the commissioner cannot accept that. cause under that rule, someone could license a yaris and say the same thing. and then not tell the clients, and the commissioner cant do a damn thing then cause there is nothing in the law that requires disclosure.

an idea to push for is a whole new division of cars in the "black car service". a "non-limo black car service" would be a nice compromise, and because its a new division, it could be added in without having to re-write all the laws regarding limo's.

Nobody mentioned this?

The Prius Limo: It's Real (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7073&highlight=limo)