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So now I have a conundrum of sorts...its partially related to fuel economy, and you are a group of people whose automotive advice I have high regards for, so I bring it to the forum. Before I was looking just at a 98 Grand Prix for my next car, but now the field has widened rather than narrrowed. I'm going to present several options and ask for your kind consideration in helping me to decide (based only on a paper comparison) which is the best car.

Contender # 1 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix 108k miles, automatic transmission. Seems to be in good shape, minus some cosmetic dings. $2500

Contender #2 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 127k miles 5spd.....lots of hail dents. $2500

Contender #3 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 128k miles 5spd - good exterior, aftermarket cd player - cold air intake - currently has fancy rims, but the seller will sell with stock steelies for $2700.

Contender #4 1990 Toyota Camry 4dr 132k miles 5spd - good condition, new tires $2000

Based on what you know about cars, fuel economy, and the world in general - assuming all information given to me is honest and correct - which car wins?

thanks sooooo much.

I'd say either 2 or 3 for FE(the Camry and the Grand Prix have bigger engines). If you don't mind dishing out the extra 200 for a nicer body, go with the 3rd one; and test drive both the 2nd and 3rd to see what shape the engine/tranny is in. Usually a honda engine should be ticking for more than 150k, depend on its use/abuse. (If the guy with the fancy rims likes to bring the car up the 6000 rpm for every shift and/or drove it for a 5 mile commute, the engine might bad in bad shape)

My big concern about #3 would be the prescence of the cold air intake and the racing rims. Has this car been someone's whip? No way to really tell.

I'm biased, but I'd go with #2 or #3. What trim level are they? MPG in this order: DX and LX the same, EX is worse. The odometer mileage is good - I have 167k on my 96. Vision has a good point - the fancy one was probably driven harder. Likely the drivetrain on #2 is in better shape.

If you do either of these, I'll say it again - check / change the timing belt.
Oh, and look for cracks in the exhaust manifold. Right out in front, where the O2 sensor plugs in. Common problem with this series.

One more thing: You do mainly highway driving, right? Higher speeds put the beat-down on the civic's mileage. CC at 65 and mine will only return 43 mpg.

Now I have a Civic bias anyway, but in this case I think the Civics are the best choices. I would probably go for the more expensive, 1000 more miles, fewer dents one if they are the same in all other aspects, but it's possible the dented one would be a better pick if it has other factors to its advantage--for example, if the other Civic was beaten hard. Test drive, inspection, and checking maintenance history could help make the decision...but I think the Civics should be the only contenders out of that lot.

Defintetly one of the Civics, the advantage of number two is that it sounds like its already a little beat up so you won't worry about dings and scratches and such. Just drive it and don't worry about. And you might be more likely to add FE mods if you don't care what it looks like already.

From a "hard-core" supporter of american vehicles:

#2.

Not enough FE from 1, 3, or 4 (~20 from 1 and 4 and notes below about #3).

3 is only due to the listed cold air intake and any other mods that may have been made heading for ricer racing land (and the hard riding it may have seen with the mindset that put those on there).

Also, #1: I hate auto trannies.

I would also go for #2 -- dents can be taken care of piecemeal as you have the money to throw at them. I wouldn't trust a performance modded engine for the reasons listed above.

#2. Dents wouldn't bother me as long as the mechanicals are in good shape.

I still hold out judgment depending on what trim the Civics are.

#1 I'll say is a No-No. We have a 99 Grand Prix in our stable, and it's MISERABLE for FE. DFCO is good, and the 3100 engine will putt-putt at 45 mph at a leisurely 1500 RPM, but you're only looking at low 30's AT BEST. If it has the 3800, lower.

Go with the civic - way more opportunity to tune for FE, and a higher FE to start.

I still hold out judgment depending on what trim the Civics are.

Well... New EPA for #1 is 21, for #4 is 18-21 depending on choices.

#2 and 3 are 28, 30, and 34 depending on choices.

With #2 being headed for ricer land I am thinking it has the worst of the above to start.

I still hold out judgment depending on what trim the Civics are.



They are both LX trim....both 97.

My only real quibble with #2 is there is some question about the title. The woman I spoke with on the phone says that she and her husband work with a friend who has a dealer license - he buys the cars at auction and they sell them for him after having driven them for a few months. so the title is actually in this third party's name. Seems a little odd to me.

I have experience with older camrys - we had an 89 with an automatic that regularly delivered 32mpg in mixed driving. This one has a 5spd, so I would assume it has more potential than EPA would indicate.

Seems a little odd to me.

Although it may be legit, if it seems odd to you, don't do it.

I hate to say it, but you may need to find some more choices. It's something I have always hated about buying a car (especially if I need one quickly due to a complete breakdown of transportation).

You are correct that the manual transmission will give you quite a bit more but unless you really need the extra space, you'll get quite a bit better results from the Civic if you put the same effort into it.

You won't be able to use a SG in the Camry.

That title thing is also worrisome to me... Who is the 3rd party? The sellers should be able to clear up any questions and I believe you should be able to contact that 3rd party and ask them about the title for the car in particular, as well as how this sort of thing is normally handled by them. If you don't like the answers, walk away.

Although it may be legit, if it seems odd to you, don't do it.

I hate to say it, but you may need to find some more choices. It's something I have always hated about buying a car (especially if I need one quickly due to a complete breakdown of transportation).

Fortunately I'm in no emergency. My paseo still runs and drives, but its getting close to 254k and I'd rather find something now when it isn't an emergency. car buying shouldn't be done in desperation if one can help it. The problem is that I have $2500 max to work with. that narrows the field of possibilities quite a bit. Geography is a problem too, I live in rural america, which means that anything I find is bound to be at least an hour away, if not more. If I'm going to drag my family around to look for cars, I want to make sure that what we are looking at is something worthwhile. I've been searching ebay, craigslist, autotrader, cars.com, and other sites religiously for about 2 weeks and doing my research. Your input here is valuable to me and has got me thinking about Civics more and more. The big problem is that there are SO many out there that have been modded. I do not want someone's ex-track toy to be my reliable daily commuter.

I say #2 or #3. Preferably #2. If there is a title issue, you will probably have to pay the DMV for a title search, which in CT is about $25 but takes about a month if I recall.
Either way, I'd check it out and offer $2000, and walk if the seller doesn't like it (and let them call back). I figure #3 is a beater, and aftermarket parts only reduce the value in my eyes (no matter What the seller says).
Check under the hood of both, looking for anything too shiny or too dirty, evidence of bolts being removed particularly around the fenders, new hoses, new radiator. Things that might mean strange shadetree repairs, or accidents.
And as always, remember: Cash is king. If you have money in hand and make an offer, you are putting the seller on the spot and can usually get a better deal. I usually put some money in one pocket, some in another. That way you can pull out one wad and say "This is all I have, take it or leave it."

I plan on asking many specific questions regarding the title situation of vehicle #2.

Strangely enough #1 is still in the running for me - despite the lowered FE of that particular vehicle. there have been some good discussions under another thread I started regarding to FE potential of 3800 equipped GM products. They aren't as terrible as they seem - particularly with my commute, which is roughly 90-05% hwy. The real thing holding me back on the grand Prix would be the specter of unreliability that I perceive hovering over any GM product. I've read plenty of good reviews on them, and know several people who have driven more than 200k on the original motor and transmission - but then there are always those who have horror stories. In addition - since this is a vehicle I plan to put my whole family in from time to time, its slightly larger size is a selling point. Has anyone actually tried to put a car seat and 2 boosters across the back of a civic? I'm sure it can be done, but there is a full 5 inches extra rear hip room in the back of a GP.

all in all, I'm sure that only time will tell what I end up with. thanks everyone for your input. One final question - how reliable are Honda automatic transmissions as compared to any other auto trannys out there? I know I'd prefer a manual, but just in case, its nice to know. Thanks.

I have 2 kids, with a car seat and a booster. There's maybe 10 inches between the two. If you squeeze the outside two against the doors, you might fit another booster in there. You'd then have to deal with the inward slope of the seat on the outer two.

Assuming that the title is OK, I'd go for #2. With the hail damage you can park it anywhere without worrying about more dings!!! No parking stress.

I've talked to a few people I work with and they have confirmed that 3 carseats across the back of a civic is pretty much impossible - unless they are really narrow carseats (which we don't have) So that rules out civics. Grrr. Just when I think I'm getting somewhere, the landscape changes.

If you have 3 car seats, go with the GP. Especially as they grow older, you'll want the extra room to leave space for them to grow. My GP is the 3100 (1999), my father-in-law has a 3800 (2000) and they're definitely comfy for larger groups.

As long as you drive careful, you can probably average 28 in it city - just easy on the throttle so that it shifts low/early, and keep it at 1500 RPM. Partial grill block to get up to temp would be a boost, and you'll be good to roll.

Side note: tranny is the same from 3100 to 3800, and our '99 has 186,000 on the original tranny with no rebuilds.

An update on this thread - I have a new prospect. A 1996 Honda Accord Sedan. 100k miles. Automatic transmission. Not perfect, but perhaps as close to the best of both worlds I will find. somewhat of a steal at $2500. Now for the questions.

What kind of lifespan will the auto tranny in a 96 accord have? What is the best FE I could possibly expect from a car like this?

Oh yeah - car #2 from the beginning post. the owner emailed some more photos....its got a CAI too. I swear 90% of the used hondas out there have been modded somehow for performance. Makes me crazy.

Contender # 1 1998 Pontiac Grand Prix 108k miles, automatic transmission. Seems to be in good shape, minus some cosmetic dings. $2500

Contender #2 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 127k miles 5spd.....lots of hail dents. $2500

Contender #3 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 128k miles 5spd - good exterior, aftermarket cd player - cold air intake - currently has fancy rims, but the seller will sell with stock steelies for $2700.

Contender #4 1990 Toyota Camry 4dr 132k miles 5spd - good condition, new tires $2000

I would buy them in this order:

Contender #4 1990 Toyota Camry 4dr 132k miles 5spd - good condition, new tires $2000, It only has 5K miles more than a car 7 years older, it would appear that it was driven lightly. Parts are abundant and it is at least $500 cheaper than than the rest, this money saved could go far in maintaining it or for fuel. It has new tires, that's worth at least $150. At this milestone I would suggest replacing timing belt and water pump within next 20k miles if it hasn't been done already.

Contender #2 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 127k miles 5spd.....lots of hail dents. $2500 I would pick this one over the one below if I could be assured that it had not been as abused as the one below. Hail dents reveal no garage, not abuse.

Contender #3 1997 Honda Civic 4dr 128k miles 5spd - good exterior, aftermarket cd player - cold air intake - currently has fancy rims, but the seller will sell with stock steelies for $2700.

It has a cold air intake which is a minus for the FE minded, it also strongly suggests that the previous owner thought that he/she had a race car and generally when Hondas have been abused you get inherent problems. Ask the owner how fast will it go? If he says 110 or something like "I did such and such at the drag strip." Don't buy it unless there are receipts for new brakes, clutch and motor mounts. ask him what is the rev limiter set at? If he knows then it's probably been abused. Look at custom rims for curbing (scratches from hitting the curb while oversteering, understeering), same with the steelies.

I wouldn't buy the Pontiac myself. I'm not familiar with them and have nothing to say about them one way or the other. Other people on here have real experience with these cars, I can't make a knowledgeable suggestion.

Regardless run car fax reports on all contenders to reveal hidden problems or repairs. You can get a dealership to do it for you or you can subscribe for unlimited car reports for $39.99 at www.carfax.com

Take your prospective car to Autozone or Advance Auto and tell them your thinking about buying it but you want to know what they thought might require parts/maintenance pretty soon. Go with the oldest counter person that is willing to help. They generally have more experience with fixing broke cars. Have them run an OBDII test (CEL, scanner test) on the two Hondas. Can't run one for the Toyota as it is too old (pre 96) for them to check with their equipment, this is not a deciding or discouraging factor. It is just simply easier to work on and pass emissions tests.

I would pick the Toyota over the others if all cars checked out good. - Dale

If the Civic is out, I'd go for the Camry for the stick and install a MPGuino. Be sure that you are okay with the lower level of safety equipment.

I posted above after only reading your initial post. You have small children: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/womenfamilies/articles/103824/article.html

You might want to consider asking other young parents, the moms are usually the drivers with the kids and can give you valuable points on loading and unloading problems, visibility, fuel costs and reliability issues. I would then ask the fathers what they would get if they had $2500 and had to do it again, they know maintenance costs. It might be the most efficient minivan or something similar I wouldn't have experience with. - Dale

Going strictly off the cars you listed, I'd pick the Accord, then the Pontiac. The Accord will have better FE, the Pontiac will be roomier and have room for your family to grow.

I kinda like my rolling couch. It's comfy, and when driven the right way (read: very conservatively) gets surprisingly good FE for a car its size and engine displacement (note that caveat). Plus it's cheap to repair, insure, and now, to drive.

Honestly, the car in the best condition (legally and physically) from this list sounds like it's the Pontiac.

If the Accord was the same age/mileage, arguably it would be a better choice, since the manual transmission might last longer than the automatic. But I wouldn't spend $2,000 on a car that's 20 years old. You already HAVE a 20 year old car.

If you have a mostly highway commute (as you indicated in the other thread,) it should serve you well. It won't be the best fuel economy in the universe, but it will be as 99LeCouch put it - very good for its size, and if you have a growing family its size may be a consideration for you.

The Civic with the CAI was probably flogged to hell. And I wouldn't mess around with the other Civic with the suspect title. Pass on both of them.

That said, don't spend more than $1,000 dollars on anything you're not more or less happy with. If something smells wrong with the Pontiac, keep looking. As you said, it's not like you're in a hurry or anything.