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At the request of a few people on another thread (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19073&page=3), I'm here to explain why I'm a vegetarian and what (if anything) it has to do with hypermiling. So first, the whys:

Health: Vegetarians are less likely (http://www.goveg.com/healthconcerns.asp) to get heart disease (http://nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_benefits_of_a_vegetarian_diet), diabetes, and most types of cancer. I have family histories of both heart disease and diabetes, so I'm especially aware of those. Going vegetarian means, for most people, changing to a diet of fresh food, cutting out most pre-prepared foods that are filled with chemicals and preservatives that have never really been tested for their long-term effects on human beings.

Long-term studies of Seventh-Day Adventists (many of whom are vegetarian) and Asian cultures with diets where the only animal product is seafood show longer lifespans and lower disease rates, but these groups often live in rural environments with less exposure to all kinds of other things have been connected to disease rates.

Morality: Animals feel pain. Many of the distinctions we make between animals and humans don't really hold up, especially when you look at the kinds of animals we're willing to eat/wear and those we aren't.

Also, for those who would defend medical testing on animals, consider two things: one, since Richard Nixon initiated the "Conquest of Cancer" in 1971, no cancer treatment (http://www.downbound.com/Cancer_Research_s/284.htm) has developed from testing on animals (http://www.stopanimaltests.com/f-pointcounterpoint.asp). That has mainly to do with how different our DNA is from that of mice. Oftentimes, treatments that work for mice don't work for rats, or vice versa. Between 50 and 100 million animals (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Animal_testing) die during testing each year or are euthanized afterward.

Cost: A vegetarian diet costs less than a healthy meat-based diet. (But vegetarians don't have a McDonald's equivalent.)

Energy and hypermiling: A vegetarian diet generally uses less energy. There are no cows, chickens, or pigs to feed. Since the 1970s, when Nixon started funding farmers to overproduce (this also led to ethanol subsidies), all the extra corn had to go somewhere. And it didn't go to people--it went to cattle, which aren't natural corn eaters (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/kingcorn/cows.html). So cattle started gaining weight, and now most commercial cattle raised for beef need a steady dose of antibiotics to counter diseases related to weight-gain and their bodies' rejection of corn.

All that extra weight leads to more industrial waste as well. Outside of the oil industry, the meat industry is the largest polluter in the U.S. And there are other environmental effects (http://www.goveg.com/environment-pollution.asp) of meat production as well (http://www.enn.com/pollution/article/23011). (Most pollution by commercial meat production can be avoided by eating organic, if you're unwilling to give up meat.)

The bottom line: I don't judge anyone for eating meat. My wife eats meat; my parents eat meat. My vegan brother is engaged to a meat eater. I don't go out of my way to start conversations about vegetarianism, and I'm not going to hector anybody here (unless they start it first :)).

As for PETA, because of how they present themselves, a lot of the good work they do goes overlooked by the general public. They're concerned about public health, about the well-being of people as well as animals. But they do some really dumb things in terms of PR, and there are legitimate questions about their leadership (though their leadership is also the target of smear campaigns for various reasons).

Anyway, I'm happy to answer any and all questions.

Quick note: I added a poll and am happy to modify it as people suggest.

wow, interesting facts, i have been considering the idea of becoming a vegetarian (ovo-lacto) for a while now and even tried for a short while on one occasion (it was ineresting)

i especially liked the point about what animals are ok to eat and which arent, why can we eat a pig (considered as smart or smarter than a dog, and who´s dna is more similar to humans than any non primate, right? ) but its not cool to eat a cute and furry rabbit (a rodent of far inferior intelligence)? is this logic right?
also i think that people are too detached from what eating meat is
if you arent capable of actually killing the animal with your bare hands, cleaning it then eating it, you should ask yourself why, then seriously question eating meat, there is no difference who kill it if you are the reason

and i also liked the point that animals do feel pain, if you are one of those people that think fish dont feel pain then you have a huge misunderstanding of the central nervous system in vertebrates

i think to an extent humans are egocentric (not a remark to anyone in particular, just human culture in general) and consider themselves so much better than other animals, when in reality the only realistic advantage i more intelligence (some people dont take advantage of it) which really should make us behave better and inflict as little pain on them as possible, given that we are the only ones wise enough to realize what pain is, and the only ones capable of choosing their food source, if you choose to eat them, at least eliminate any unnecessary pain and dont have cruel methods of raising them,
i dont think i need to mention the poultry industry

and about health, i dont really think the human body was designed to eat the amounts nor kinds of meat that people eat in western cultures

i also agree to an extent on animal testing, in school i have read about some of the procedures for testing on animals, and i have found a lot of them distasteful and unnecessarily cruel, not saying it shouldn't be done, but more control and ethics would be far better

it will certainly make me think the next time i eat mr. moo the cow for dinner

are there any quick, dead animal free, snacks or meals?

Well, I've been vegan for ~18 months now. I think booferama covered most of my rationale for my dietary practices as well. Although, with regard to price/energy used, this can be less on a vegan/veggie diet, but is not necessarily true. If one eats excessive amounts of faux animal products, this can use more energy and cost more due to increased processing and whatnot. Not to mention they are not particularly healthy either. Not surprisingly, IIRC McDonalds is the cheapest (legal) source of calories in the world. I do feel people are becoming increasingly disconnected with where their food comes from, and this is why I do have more respect for people eating wild animals they have hunted themsleves, preferably without the aid of weapons, than those who just buy food at the supermarket.

Also, regarding those who voted in the poll but did not post, please explain your rationale, even if you want to say you wish (vegans) were dead from being such liberal stuck-up kooks or w/e. I take no offense from such statements.

I like eating meat. It's about that simple.

...even if you want to say you wish (vegans) were dead from being such liberal stuck-up kooks or w/e.Even from the leader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Health_and_sexuality)of the first country to institute animal rights laws? :eek: (needed a few human rights laws ;) )

Yes, I am a meat eater.

However, I am also one of those that can (and will) go out and kill, butcher, and cook my own meat too.

I also hope that the animal's death was quick, for several reasons. First, just so that the animal's pain is minimized, and second, the meat tastes better without the added adrenaline and other chemicals released by an animal in distress.

I love my vegetables, but I love my meat too. I have nothing against vegetarians, or eating a vegetarian meal every once in a while (some of them are quite delicious).

I am opposed to most animal testing, for most of the reasons already stated. The tests just don't mean much when the DNA is different.

I do have one question though..

What is the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan?

What is the difference between a vegetarian and a vegan?

Isn't there like 5 or 6 different types of vegetarians some will eat animal products, vegans will not eat any animal products including honey. I'm no expert though.

Yes, I am a meat eater.

I also hope that the animal's death was quick, for several reasons. First, just so that the animal's pain is minimized, and second, the meat tastes better without the added adrenaline and other chemicals released by an animal in distress.



isnt this among the reasons used to justify the price and quality on some exotic meats? dont they like treat the animals better=better taste

of course i have also heard of the kinds that cost more cause they are crueler (feeding them wierd diets and not letting them walk)

Isn't there like 5 or 6 different types of vegetarians some will eat animal products, vegans will not eat any animal products including honey. I'm no expert though.

There aren't really that many kinds of vegetarians. Some vegetarians eat eggs; some eat dairy products. Some people take those distinctions very seriously, but I don't think most vegetarians do. I indulge in dairy sometimes--I've got a pizza weakness--and I eat eggs, though very rarely. I know a few vegetarians who would say I'm not a real vegetarian. But we still get along fine.

As for veganism, as the poll suggests, vegan don't use animal products in any way at all (in every way they can control). That means no eggs, no dairy, no honey, no wool, no leather, etc. I know that sounds strange to a lot of meat-eaters, but I admire the consistency of that approach. Visionseeming can add a lot more about this than I can, I'm sure.

Being vegan or vegetarian isn't all that hard, either. I eat more diverse kinds of food now than I ever did as a meat eater. Some of that had to do with learning how to cook for myself, but it had more to do with learning about nutrition and buying new cookbooks. (If you want a great vegan cookbook, I very highly recommend this one (http://www.amazon.com/Veganomicon-Ultimate-Isa-Chandra-Moskowitz/dp/156924264X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233262198&sr=8-1). It's the best cookbook I've ever used in my life, hands down. Great food, easy to prepare.)

isnt this among the reasons used to justify the price and quality on some exotic meats? dont they like treat the animals better=better taste

of course i have also heard of the kinds that cost more cause they are crueler (feeding them wierd diets and not letting them walk)

Slightly different here, and I don't condone these acts either.

What I was talking about was the killing of the animal, what you are talking about is while it is being raised.

The reasoning behind some of it is that an animal that doesn't use it's muscles much has (supposedly) meat that is more tender compared to others.

This is also one reason that some people prefer younger animals for food, less time for the animal to build up the tougher muscles.

The reasoning behind some of it is that an animal that doesn't use it's muscles much has (supposedly) meat that is more tender compared to others.

This is also one reason that some people prefer younger animals for food, less time for the animal to build up the tougher muscles.

I guess that explains Veal and Balut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balut_(egg)).:eek:

In any case, as booferama stated, a Vegan is indeed one who eschews animal products as much as possible.

@booferama: BTW, how long have you been veggie?

Talesin,

I think Materia was referring to veal (http://www.noveal.org/)and foie gras (http://www.goveg.com/feat/foie/). (And balut, as vision points out.)

And vision, I've been vegetarian since August 2001, with an occasional foray into seafood eating.

those links are something i think every member of this forum should read, thank you for educating me on the subject, i will not be eating any of these foods ever
and yeah i was actually refering to veal, but didnt know about foie gras

I eat meat with most meals. I'm almost certain that being a vegetarian would mean less pollution, waste, and energy consumed. But I also enjoy the flavors and varieties that meat gives to a meal. I suppose we all make environmental compromises, and eating meat is one of mine.

I doub't anyone is going to condone this

Protests In China Over Eating Cats (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/18/protests-in-china-over-ea_n_152175.html)

"China has no animal protection laws, and throughout the country scores of cats and dogs are bred or rounded up, crammed onto trucks and driven for days under hellish conditions to animal markets, where they are beaten to death, strangled or boiled alive" - no PETA hype - the truth

I'll eat just about any meat, and like trying new things, I eat steak a few times a week, I used to eat more when I worked for IBP now part of Tyson, but still the largest kill/processor or Beef and Pork in the world.

I was an engineer that worked on ways to kill/process beef both with less labor and with less effort by the labor through automation and through method improvement.

I've seen every aspect of killing of beef and pork in large and small plants, and even worked in Horse kill plants in Texas (Palestine and Sealy) that processed horse for sale to France and Belgium. I don't see the sense in rendering a horse for pet food when there is a market for human consumption, the horse is killed and processed one way or the other.

I don't see a problem with cultures that choose cats or dogs or rats as food and would probably try them if ever in those cultures.

I have friends that are vegetarian and don't care what their reasons are but I do wonder what life without bacon would be like, and have decided I don't want to know. :D

I eat meat, almost with every meal. I'd like to stop but I really don't know how to. If I don't eat meat then what do I eat as a substitute? I guess beans and mushrooms have a lot of protein in them and protein is the main reason to eat meat isn't it?

I can't stand being around raw meat. It's just nasty. It's all bloody and slimy and seems like it's filled with diseases. You think that would stop me from eating meat, but the cooked stuff I have no problem being around. Luckily my gf does all the cooking.

Now when I go out to restaurants to eat, I usually go for the veggie/vegan option if they've got one that sounds like it could be good. I don't know what veggies to mix together, and luckily at the restaurant they did that hard part for me already.

I've been buying soy milk for the past few weeks. I actually like the taste of it a lot better than regular milk. $2.50 for the half gallon of soy vs $2.20 for the half gallon of regular full of growth hormones. The soy milk says it's organic and all that stuff, but I'm not sure what that means exactly.

Health: Vegetarians are less likely to get heart disease, diabetes, and most types of cancer. I have family histories of both heart disease and diabetes, so I'm especially aware of those. Going vegetarian means, for most people, changing to a diet of fresh food, cutting out most pre-prepared foods that are filled with chemicals and preservatives that have never really been tested for their long-term effects on human beings.

Vegetarianism does not necessarily mean healthy. I certainly agree pre-packaged and processed foods are rarely healthy, but a balanced diet of fresh food can certainly include meat. I would say most processed foods are actually meat-free and thus technically vegetarian, yet not healthy. Soda, chips, french fries, cookies, snack cakes, etc. all fall in this category. As for crazy food additives, how do they make those fake chicken patties and other faux meat products? Those things have always perplexed me.

I salute you for choosing fresh foods, however.

Two great food books: Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan.

I eat meat, almost with every meal. I'd like to stop but I really don't know how to. If I don't eat meat then what do I eat as a substitute? I guess beans and mushrooms have a lot of protein in them and protein is the main reason to eat meat isn't it?

Now when I go out to restaurants to eat, I usually go for the veggie/vegan option if they've got one that sounds like it could be good. I don't know what veggies to mix together, and luckily at the restaurant they did that hard part for me already.

I've been buying soy milk for the past few weeks. I actually like the taste of it a lot better than regular milk. $2.50 for the half gallon of soy vs $2.20 for the half gallon of regular full of growth hormones. The soy milk says it's organic and all that stuff, but I'm not sure what that means exactly.
There are lots of links on the internet that can help you figure out how to decrease the amount of meat you eat, but still keep adequate protein in your diet. Try googling something like "vegetarian protein". Here's one with a pretty simple rundown of ways to balance your food groups to get enough protein:

http://www.theveggietable.com/articles/protein.html

I'm not a strict vegetarian, and I don't fall into any one category in the poll. I try to eat organic foods. I guess I am mostly vegetarian, but I also eat dairy, poultry and fish. Occasionally I have red meat; we had it for dinner tonight. I feel like the rest of my family might miss eating meat, so I buy it now and then, but not often. I buy some meat substitutes, like veggie burgers and soy meatballs. The ingredients vary a lot depending on what brand you buy, so you might prefer the taste of one better than another.
Regarding the milk, it seems that, at least around here, more milk is now available that says it has "no growth hormones". The soy milk that says it's organic means it was produced using soybeans that were grown organically (without the use of chemicals, pesticides, or herbicides).

Like with cars, to each his own, we can't all like the same things.

Vegetarianism does not necessarily mean healthy. I certainly agree pre-packaged and processed foods are rarely healthy, but a balanced diet of fresh food can certainly include meat. I would say most processed foods are actually meat-free and thus technically vegetarian, yet not healthy. Soda, chips, french fries, cookies, snack cakes, etc. all fall in this category. As for crazy food additives, how do they make those fake chicken patties and other faux meat products? Those things have always perplexed me.

I salute you for choosing fresh foods, however.

I would like to emphasize that this is a VERY important point. I do believe that like any other of today's corporate diets, created to make money, veg*ism should not automatically be considered a miracle or the healthiest diet in the world.

It is perfectly possible to eat animals and be healthy, granted one does eat a variegated diet. As for faux meats, I would almost guarantee that genuine animal flesh is far healthier. I have personally tried to greatly reduce my consumption of soymilk/dairy substitutes, preferring to eat the beans rather than drink them in liquid form.

In the end, to each his own.

Even from the leader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Health_and_sexuality)of the first country to institute animal rights laws? :eek: (needed a few human rights laws ;) )

Let's just say that Freud had much to say about such a psychologically disoriented man.:D;)

Just caught the end of History channels Modern Marvels feature on the Horse.

Apparently horse is also considered human food in Toronto. They visited the restaurant Le Pallette and concluded that horse is healthier for humans than beef. The horse meat was not obtained from processing plants primarily intended for human consumption but from plants that rendered old horses that harvested the tenderloins for consumption.

Such practice seems closer to "sustainable" then not using the deceased animal.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm bologna