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I thought I'd start an interesting game:

First, estimate how long you intend on keeping your car, in terms of years and miles, until you scrap/give it away/purchase a new one.

Second, estimate, at a future going rate of between $4-$5 per gallon, how much it will cost you to fuel said vehicle.

Third, just for the fun of it, also estimate how much you expect to pay in repairs, maintenance and insurance; basically, everything else excluding fuel.

Add it all up and post your approximate total cost of ownership, hypermiling style!
We could even compare these figures to those released by JD Powers and other on their estimated cost of ownership.

As an example, I'll put down my figures:

1. I expect to keep mine for about 10 years, until a cost-effective electric or carbon-neutral-fueled vehicle is available at a reasonable price, less than $30,000. I drive about 13,000 miles a year, and I currently have about 35,000 on my Odo, so I expect to see around 170,000 miles.

2. At an estimated future cost of gas of $5/gal, and at an estimated 48mpg (rounded down), I expect to pay $13,500 in gas in those coming 10 years.
(Thats $5 / 48mpg * 13,000 * 10)

3. I take my car to be serviced every 4.6 months, and that will cost me (inflation adjusted) $3760 over the next 10 years, at a current rate of $75/service. Insurance costs me $150/mo currently, so over the next 10 years that will add up to $18,000.

Total cost of ownership over 10 years: $35,260 :eek:

Now THAT's an eye-opener, but is sure is interesting to consider that with hypermiling, I'll be spending the same amount of money the average driver would use in only 5 years! (according to msn autos and their total cost of ownership data.) Of course, these numbers involve extremes in pessimism and optimism, but I think they are quite well within the ballpark.

Who's next? :D

thought I'd start an interesting game:

First, estimate how long you intend on keeping your car, in terms of years and miles, until you scrap/give it away/purchase a new one.

Second, estimate, at a future going rate of between $4-$5 per gallon, how much it will cost you to fuel said vehicle.

Third, just for the fun of it, also estimate how much you expect to pay in repairs, maintenance and insurance; basically, everything else excluding fuel.

Add it all up and post your approximate total cost of ownership, Hypermiling style!
We could even compare these figures to those released by JD Powers and other on their estimated cost of ownership.

As an example, I'll put down my figures:

1. I expect to keep mine for about 17 years, 10,000 miles a year, and I currently have about 50,000 on my Odo, so I expect to see around 170,000 miles.

2. At an estimated future cost of gas of $5/gal, and at an estimated 43mpg (rounded down), I expect to pay $13,953 in gas in those coming 12 years.
(Thats $5 / 43mpg * 10,000 * 12)

3. I take my car to be serviced every 6 months, and that will cost me (inflation adjusted) $1020 over the next 17 years, at a current rate of $30/service. Insurance costs me $100/mo currently, so over the next 17 years that will add up to $18,000.

Total cost of ownership over 10 years: $32,974

Cost per mile for 150,000 miles: $.22

Now THAT's an eye-opener, but is sure is interesting to consider that with Hypermiling , I'll be spending the same amount of money the average driver would use in only 5 years! (according to msn autos and their total cost of ownership data.) Of course, these numbers involve extremes in pessimism and optimism, but I think they are quite well within the ballpark.

We could also add in registration cost. And also the cost of the car per mile of ownership.

And interest.

Who's next?

We intend to keep our car about 10 years for the same reasons you stated. We won't get rid of this one until it breaks down or we can save substantial funds by getting a new car which is more energy efficient. I drive about 30,000 km's a year. So if nothing changes I expect we'll get close to 300,000 kms.

I keep a spreadsheet which calculates our cost per km. Currently it's at .66, because I put everything in, including the cost of the car, winter tires, insurance, parking, toll highways... everything. So that goes down about .01 per gas fill up. I have estimated that our total cost per km not including the initial purchase price is around .22 a km. That means we're looking at the cost of ownership being around 60-70 grand if fuel prices do not go up too much and if our insurance rates don't get hiked or major repair work is needed.

Even though our insurance rates have gone done. they're still 227 a month.

Things are just way more expensive in Canada. This works out to about a cost of .32 a mile.

Adding in the cost of my car, which was modest, realize the cost of my car over 30 years is very close to the cost of my house.

The difference is at the end, I have a house that has presumably increased in value and a car worth next to nothing.

I’ll go next.

Bought the Yaris in August so starting from new vehicle purchase. Planning on 10 years with the petrol engine or less depending on what technology comes along to allow me to modify to electric or alternative.

So 10 years.
With vehicle cost, gas, tires/oil/maintenance, insurance, taxes/registration/inspections…

Total cost = $47,380 US.

Using the below:
18,000 miles/year, 180,000 10/years
43 MPG average (hope to improve this one!)
$5.00 per gallon of gas, 10 year cost = $20,930.23
4,186 gallons of gas! (Only 4,000 gallons at 45 MPG)
$0.263 per mile.

With $1.75 gas (current local price):
Total cost = $33,775.58
10 year gas cost = $7,325.58
$0.188 per mile!

With $7.00 gas and all others the same:
Total cost = $55,752.33
10 year gas cost = $29,302.33
$0.31 per mile!

I'll go with my 2000 tundra truck. I bought it new it currently has 165000 miles. For the first 165K I spent 26000 on the truck,3900 in maintenance(tires, oil, brakes, etc.) Based on an average 2.00 per gallon for gas(10000 gallons:eek:) The cost per mile has been 0.30. I plan on keeping the truck for at least another 10 years which should see me to the 275000 mile mark. I think I will spend 26645.00 over the next 110000 miles on costs and fuel. That would end up with a cost per mile over the life of the truck of 0.28. I did not factor in insurance in these calculations. I think there is too much variance between companies, driving records, etc for that to weigh into the operational costs of a vehicle. I'll get data on the civic later.

I've currently got just under 100,000 miles on my car.

I've met people with Echo's who have well over 300k on them without any serious mechanical issues. I intend on keeping my car until the wheels fall off, which could be a long time, even with me putting 20k/year on it.

I would estimate $1000 in gas per year (at $4/per), plus the regular maintenance: tires, brakes, oil, etc.

My last truck went 18 years, and it wasn't even a Toyota, I should get 25+ years from this one right.;)

I'll drive mine until it breaks down.

I want it to last at least 10 years; and even then, that still might be under 100,000 miles...

My current car has been with me for 1 yr, 9 and 1/2 months. So far I've put on 24,000 miles on. The initial cost of the car (came with a warranty) was 6999 financed to about $8600. Maintenance has cost me about...$1000 so far. I also bought other stuff for the car that wasnt necessary, but I did it for my own enjoyment and hobby so I don't count that. I'm about to spend another $500 on maintenance + $600 for a timing belt and that should last me for a few more years before anything major. That so far adds up to $10,700 for the car before fueling. Lifetime average for my gas mileage is probably around 27. That comes to about $2500 in fueling costs at a rate of $2.80 for gas average. That comes to a grand total of $12,100 for total car cost up to this point.

This car should last a while and I wont put more than 5 more years as I will already have converted it to electric or I will have gotten myself something extremely fuel efficient by comparison.
At the current rate of maintenance, it will have cost me roughly $20,000 dollars for 7 years.
Then I convert it and it should be quite a bit cheaper!

I am going to shoot for 500,000 in my van, getting close to 300,000.
I got it for free, so I really am getting my moneys worth!;)
I have to fill it twice a week and don't even want to find out what it would cost at 5 clams a gallon!:eek:
It was totaled and I collected some $$ for that, and thanks to the miracle of ducttape I still am driving the thing !

I thought I'd start an interesting game:

First, estimate how long you intend on keeping your car, in terms of years and miles, until you scrap/give it away/purchase a new one...

My Suby is 11.9 years old, and I expect to keep it 20 years.
DW's Acura is 19.8 years old, and I expect to keep it 20 years. (She expects longer.)
My Honda is 22.1 years old, and I expect to keep it 20... darn, I'm late. When are Insight-II and Prius-III available?

More figures later. The older two should be replaced by just one new car.

IIRC, Insight-II in April and Prius-III in August.

Mine is expected to last until just after the HCHIII comes out, then I'll decide between that and the Insight II and the Aptera if it is in SC at that point (assuming the first hand reports of the owners is stellar).

I can't attempt to assign an expense to it because it is my sole mechanized transportation on-call whether I decide to go across town or across country.

Average about 30thousand miles a year
I plan on keeping my 89 civic just long enough to find a 92-95 civic.
In about the same price range i should be able to drive for 15-20 cents per mile with all factors figured in....

I intend on keeping my car until the wheels fall off

After the wheels fall off of my car, which I'm sure they will one day, I'm gonna put them back on and keep driving.

Really though, what seems to be the main cause for the death of a car? I'd say it seems to be wrecks. An accident happens and the insurance company comes to the conclusion that it cost more to fix the damage than the car is worth.

And then the number two killer, something on the car, such as the transmission, fails and it costs more to replace than the car is worth.

It seems to me though that besides an accident destroying the shape of the car, that any failed piece inside the car can be replaced and it can keep going. Though once your car is 10 or 20 years old there's so much new technology out there that you probably want to upgrade.

After the wheels fall off of my car, which I'm sure they will one day, I'm gonna put them back on and keep driving.

Really though, what seems to be the main cause for the death of a car? I'd say it seems to be wrecks. An accident happens and the insurance company comes to the conclusion that it cost more to fix the damage than the car is worth.

And then the number two killer, something on the car, such as the transmission, fails and it costs more to replace than the car is worth.

It seems to me though that besides an accident destroying the shape of the car, that any failed piece inside the car can be replaced and it can keep going. Though once your car is 10 or 20 years old there's so much new technology out there that you probably want to upgrade.

They don't use much road salt in TX do they? The rust eventually eats pretty much any car driven in the winter around here. Bondo on body panels works for awhile, but eventually something rusts out that you can't patch up. Around here cosmetic rust shows on most cars by 10-12 years and serious structural problems start showing up around 20 years.

We purchased our four cars for just a little more than the price of a new Prius. Both the Saturn and Taurus have high miles, were bought cheap used and are more or less hoopties at this point. I expected my sons to wreck one or both of these cars while they learned to drive (the body on the Saturn is a little rough:)). I expect to give these two cars away to my sons when they need them/finish college in one to four years.

The Ranger (mine) cost about $10k and the Aveo (my wife's) $9k. We're putting about 10,000 mi/yr on the Ranger and 20,000 mi/yr on the Aveo. I anticipate rust issues on the Ranger in about 2020, so I'm figuring it's good for 170,000 miles. ~$.06/mi depreciation At $4 gas ~$.11/mi fuel cost.

We will want to keep at least one reliable passenger vehicle for highway driving. I maintain my vehicles reasonably well but my wife???? Eventually things like wheel bearings, pumps and alternators need rebuilds/replacement. Somewhere around 150,000 miles (~2014) I expect she will be frustrated by downtime and we'll get another car. --$.06/mi depreciation. At $4 gas ~$.10/mi fuel cost.

Bought my Honda Civic CX new in 1992 and it currently has 485,000 miles on it. Plan to keep driving it until I can buy an inexpensive new car that can match its highway mileage. As I continue modifying it, I keep raising the mileage bar and there's nothing currently being sold that comes close to matching or exceeding its mileage on the highway.

That's part of the reason I like my Insight -- so much of it is aluminum and plastic that rust really isn't much of an issue. :)

That's part of the reason I like my Insight -- so much of it is aluminum and plastic that rust really isn't much of an issue. :)

Good counterexample to "rust eats everything". I've never been under an Insight and I'm curious -- is the suspension (e.g control arms/ tie rods) aluminum too? At what point (if any) do they recommend inspecting the aluminum frame for fatigue cracks?

My wife totaled her car last summer, so we shopped around. I considered a new $24,000 Prius, but ended up buying a used 2006 Hyundai Elantra for $11,000 out the door. We keep our cars until they die, so the numbers work like this:

If she gets EPA mileage and drives the EPA average miles/year, we can drive the Elantra for 14 years on the price difference between it and the Prius. We can drive it another dozen years for the price of the two battery replacements the Prius will need over the next 20 years. So that's 26 years of free driving before the Prius's mileage advantage starts to factor into the equation.

The rear suspension has one steel component but everything else is aluminum. I'm not aware of any inspection schedule.

Sentra, why do you expect that the Prius battery would need to be replaced twice in 20 years?

My wife totaled her car last summer, so we shopped around. I considered a new $24,000 Prius, but ended up buying a used 2006 Hyundai Elantra for $11,000 out the door. We keep our cars until they die, so the numbers work like this:

If she gets EPA mileage and drives the EPA average miles/year, we can drive the Elantra for 14 years on the price difference between it and the Prius. We can drive it another dozen years for the price of the two battery replacements the Prius will need over the next 20 years. So that's 26 years of free driving before the Prius's mileage advantage starts to factor into the equation.

Thanks for sharing those numbers. Some people seem convinced the Prius is a no brainer, but our research yielded results similar to yours.

We crunched the numbers pretty hard as well when we purchased our Yaris last year and even with the most optimistic results possible it would take us over 22 years of owning the Prius and 662104 km's or 411412 miles to break even with the Yaris. This assumes better than epa FE, no battery replacements, all extra rebates for a hybrid and doesn't include the interest lost on the extra money the Prius would cost up front.

In the worst case scenario where better than epa wasn't achieved, it would take 35 years of ownership and over 1 million km's or 620000 miles to break even.

Neither scenario made a Prius purchase plausible to us.

While you can't compare the build quality of a Prius to a Elantra or a Yaris, you also cannot say that a Prius is a no brainer as cars like the Elantra, Fit, Yaris etc are all the better choices for pure economy and I would be shocked if the majority of Prius owners could honestly say one of these more economical cars couldn't suit all their needs required from their vehicle.

Our Prius will cost about $33500 for 100,000 miles at $4/gal or $28,500 at $2/gal. I'm assuming my son will continue to get 40 mpg with it in pure city driving,and maintenance will be about $300/yr. I do my own oil changes and rarely bring any vehicle to the dealer.

The 1998 Suburban-bought used with 195,000 miles on it, now has 208,100- gets about 8000 miles a year at 17 mpg.100,000 miles will cost about $32500 at $4/gal or $21000 at $2/gal.

So the TCO is about the same over 100,000 miles at $4/gal.This ignores resale which will be zero on the Suburban, but maybe $5000+ on the Prius. It also assumes I can keep the Suburban going for just $6000 in maintenance over 100,000 miles.

In general I would say the Prius is the better deal since it is new and expected to be very reliable.It is also easier to park maneuver and a bit safer. The Suburban is more versatile of course, but like most big SUV owners only 30% of the miles are while heavily loaded, the rest are 1,2 passenger trips.
Charlie

Sean,

I'm guessing, of course, on the Prius' battery life. Toyota warrants the Prius' hybrid battery for 8 years/100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Of course, Toyota only warrants the drivetrain for 5 years/60,000 miles, its basic warranty is only 3 years/36,000 miles, and we know Toyotas are generally much more reliable cars than that.

OTOH, batteries are not drivetrains. I can't think of any battery that exceeds its service life exceptionally, the way some exceptional gasoline engines go 500,000 miles or a million miles. Batteries just generally don't do that. If any components on your cars are going to fail right after warranty coverage ends, they're going to be your batteries and tires.

So, I think I was being conservative in expecting a Prius to need 2 X $5,000 hybrid battery replacements in 20 years. The price of the batteries may go down, and they may not fail, but knowing how every other battery in my experience has behaved, I think I'm on solid ground expecting the Prius' (or HCH's) batteries to need to be replaced in ten years. Toyota has delayed its planned replacement of its Li-MH batteries with lithium ion batteries, which should tell us the improved battery technology still isn't here yet. Another tell-tale sign is the Prius' unsuitability for people with my lifestyle - retirees who don't drive their cars every week. If you don't drive a Prius for 2 weeks, the HV batteries can drop below a safe level and be damaged.

Toyota and Honda's batteries have dropped in price since they were first released, and when I worked at each dealership (still at Honda as I write this) neither has packs that expensive anymore (customer price).

The Prius was good around a month un-driven according to the shop down in FL and if I recall correctly my owners manual said something to that effect too, that and if I were storing the car to start it once a month or so.

NiMH chemistry seems to have very good durability. Check out the RAV-EVs still running around on their original packs. Honda packs are more likely to croak but that is due to a different chemistry and battery management algorithms that aren't as protective as the Toyota programming.

07 HCH2

Plan to own at least 5 years at 25kmi/yr and over 50mpg. So 5 year cost:

5yr x 25k x $3/gal / 50mpg = $7500 fuel plus
5yr x $1000/yr = $5000 maint, insur. plus
$20,500 purch price less tax cred

= $33000 TCO outlay or about $0.26/mile. Dont know what I could sell it for.

NiMH chemistry seems to have very good durability. Check out the RAV-EVs still running around on their original packs. Honda packs are more likely to croak but that is due to a different chemistry and battery management algorithms that aren't as protective as the Toyota programming.
I have read somewhere that the batteries used in the Prius are actually more like telephone company batteries than typical home electronics batteries.

I hope to keep my car for about 10 years or until it becomes a financially smart move to get a new car.

Insurance = 10yr * $1180/yr = $11800
Gas at 23,000mi/yr and current mpg = (23000mi/33mpg)*$4/gal*10yr = $27878
Cost of car + maintenece at $75/mo = $31,000

For a grand total of $70678...

And if I can increase my fe by 10% it would be reduced to $68144.

That is depressing after seeing everyone elses posts....

Assumptions:
15 years (I want to teach my 1 year old daughter how to drive stick w/ this truck)
12k miles/year
21 miles/gal
$5/gal average over 15 years.

Purchase the truck: $20k
Sell the truck at the end: -$6k
maintenence: $300/year (oil, filters, batteries, tires, etc.)
major repairs: $6k (injectors cost $2k/set just to buy the parts)
insurance: $500/year
registration: $78/year
mods: $200/year

Grand total:

$79k
$.44/mile
$5k/year

About half that is fuel

2001 Prius purchased new (August 2001) transferred to new owner July 2007 with 109k miles. Total ownership cost just under 25 cents per mile. Coulda made 23 in a state with less expensive auto insurance than California :)

The new owner and I project that his TCO will be quite a bit lower.

Years ago the AAA and EPA both said average TCO for US cars was about 55 cents per mile - has anybody seen such figures updated recently?

DAS

Coulda made 23 in a state with less expensive auto insurance than California :)

Don't feel bad. Our auto insurance is half again higher here in TX than it was in CA. Apparently weather takes out a lot of cars here, especially hail.

I'm not sure how to do mine. I plan on keeping the thing until they don't pump dead dinosaurs out of the ground anymore, I plan on replacing the engine, re-dong the gearing with an automatic overdrive transmission, etc., so it's hard to predict my mileage after all of that...but insurance and registration are way cheap...and predicting the appreciation is difficult too so I will assume it just keeps up with inflation.

Let's assume 20 years (a low figure, IMHO) at the current mpg.

Fuel = 36 cents / mile
Miles = 12k / yr
Motor = $3500
Oil changes = $75/year
Other maintenance / repairs = $500/yr
Registration = $50 / yr
Insurance = $75 / mo

Total: $103.900 or about $0,42 / mile.

Here's mine. Bought 8 years ago, with 70,000 miles on it, for $8000.

Since then,
$5500 gas (only the last 20k hypermiling, the rest at 33 mpg)
$3500 maintenance/repairs
$3500 insurance

I expect to keep it another 5 years, or about 50,000 miles at my normal rate. Total 220,000 miles on the car.
$3600 gas (assuming $4 /gal and 50 mpg)
$3500 maint / repairs (based on the last 8 years, plus a bit as it ages)
$2000 insurance

Total cost: 29,000 over 150,000 miles, or 19c / mile.

I can't really say how much it will cost me because I don't log my mileage or gas money... but I financed my car ('00) in '03 for 5 years and ended up paying probably 10,500 for a 8,900 car. It's got 110K now, and between tires, battery and misc. I'm probably near $2000 in parts. At this point I do my own service, so that saves me a bundle. I'll probably keep it for at least another 2-3 years at this rate... even though it's a thoroughly boring drive. It's starting to get into repair territory - I just replaced the radiator and intake mani gasket... I'm sure I'll be buying parts over the next couple of years. Anyway, I'm sure I'm close to $20-25K with everything at this point. Less than $5K a year to drive, not too bad.

Though once your car is 10 or 20 years old there's so much new technology out there that you probably want to upgrade.

If there's so much new technology out there, how come I can't buy a new car, either hybrid or non-hybrid, that comes close to matching, much less exceeding, the highway mileage of my 17 year old non-hybrid car when driven at normal highway speeds. It would be nice to upgrade, but I am still waiting for car manufacturer to produce a 0.15 Cd 4-seater that can knock out mileage at least in the mid 80's while traveling down a level interstate at 70mph. If my clapped-out, 500,000 mile car using 17 year old engine technology and 70 year old aerodynamics technology can do it for only a few hundred dollars in additional material costs beyond OEM cost, then why can't the car companies do it? Can you tell I'm a bit frustrated with the car manufacturers?

Even if there wasn't any mileage improvement, an ultra-low Cd vehicle is a joy to drive on the highway for its zero wind noise and wind loading at any legal highway speed, and its ability to ignore headwinds and make the whole drafting bugaboo a non-issue. Traveling at 75mph in my car is the wind loading equivalent of driving at 45mph in a normal car. Maybe when the Aptera 4-seater comes out there will finally be a car that achieves highway mileage parity with my antique.

If my clapped-out, 500,000 mile car using 17 year old engine technology and 70 year old aerodynamics technology can do it for only a few hundred dollars in additional material costs beyond OEM cost, then why can't the car companies do it? Can you tell I'm a bit frustrated with the car manufacturers?

I'm just as frustrated as you are, and I currently drive on the opposite side of the aerodynamic equation.

Me too. It's odd that in a time of demand for more fuel efficient cars, the trend seems to be towards heavier cars, not lighter. Have you seen what a compact car weighs these days? They seem to add about 100lbs every 5 years. And the obsession with all the gizmos on cars these days baffles me as well.

People don't believe me that there are 25 year old cars which get the same mileage as these fancy hybrids, and it's one reason hybrids don't exactly impress me - much cheaper, simpler, and easier-to-maintain cars were achieving amazing mileage a while back!