Archives

"There's no money in hybrids" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7734226.stm)
"The easy way out is E85 - no development" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7734226.stm)
"Build more Hummers" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7734226.stm)
Along comes 2008 - :eek: :eek: :eek: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7734226.stm)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/Renault_Car_Wreck.jpgJohn Madslien - BBC News - 20 November 2008

As GM is finding out - ignore new technologies at your own peril -- Ed.

Listen to the voices from Washington and Detroit - where the Big Three carmakers General Motors, Ford and Chrysler are pleading for a $25bn (£16.6bn) government bail-out - and you would think the industry was dying on its feet.

Further south, in Los Angeles, a more nuanced story is emerging as the Californian city's motor show gets under way.

Two models in particular illustrate the diverging paths the industry is taking...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7734226.stm

"GM has in recent years instead thrown its weight behind E85 - a mixture of 85% ethanol made from plants and 15% petrol - as the alternative fuel of the future".

Hm, lets see, 10% ethanol mix gives a 10% reduction in fuel economy (but the price is the same as "standard" gas, most places I've looked); and most websites reports I've seen say that an 85% ethanol mix (E85) gives up 25% to 28% of normal gas mileage. (Bet it isn't 25% cheaper than standard gas, either).

Yeah, that sounds about the right kind of logic and math, for CEO's of the Chry-For-GM world. So what if it means we get to drive our American-made Flex-o-saurus around the gas station, twice, before we need to refuel. ("Fire up the corporate jet, Freddie --- it's time to take our weekly million-dollar check, and go "home" to the Bahamas for the weekend").

"GM has in recent years instead thrown its weight behind E85 - a mixture of 85% ethanol made from plants and 15% petrol - as the alternative fuel of the future".

Hm, lets see, 10% ethanol mix gives a 10% reduction in fuel economy (but the price is the same as "standard" gas, most places I've looked); and most websites reports I've seen say that an 85% ethanol mix (E85) gives up 25% to 28% of normal gas mileage. (Bet it isn't 25% cheaper than standard gas, either).

Yeah, that sounds about the right kind of logic and math, for CEO's of the Chry-For-GM world. So what if it means we get to drive our American-made Flex-o-saurus around the gas station, twice, before we need to refuel. ("Fire up the corporate jet, Freddie --- it's time to take our weekly million-dollar check, and go "home" to the Bahamas for the weekend").

Here are my experiences with E85 in my FFV Dodge Ram:

When not towing (not often)
Gas: 15 mpg
E85: 12 mpg (20% loss)

E85 is about 18% cheaper than gas.

When towing (my normal use for this truck)
Gas: 10 mpg
E85: 10 mpg

With the FFV computer tech in the truck (AFR and timing adjustment), I get a 10% boost in HP with the E85 which really helps when towing that 4000# boat/trailer combo.

However...

If E85 becomes more common, a non-FFV vehicle can be built that takes full advantage of the 105 octane E85 has and will get similar mpg as a regular gas vehicle (an increase in compression is part of the process which precludes regular gas use).

A better, short term, solution would have been to design the FFV engine to use premium gas and/or E85. However, this would have made them make two different ingines instead of slightly modifying the non-FFV engine. This would have kept the mpg with gas the same (albeit $/mile would be more due to the price), but the mpg on E85 could have been raised.

My purpose for driving this truck is to limit my oil consumption. If I pay more by burning ethanol instead of oil, I will still do it. Right now I pay about $0.10 more per 100 miles when not towing. I'll pay up to 10X that.

When towing, I am saving money by using E85.

I'd hardly say lack of investment is a factor as much as people assume. In reality GM has just as many guzzlers if not fewer than other automakers. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Etc all carry baggage.

GM just spends to much damn money building their cars thanks to the UAW. At least they have a couple people with the sense to bring affordable to build cars into the lineup. The Cruze will have the lowest cost of production of any GM car to date. Now if they could just build rest of the lineup the same way. It's sad to see them struggle. I hope things work out, with some of what Mr. Lutz is bringing in the next few years they have a definite bright future.

I don't know...

It seems to me that all of the companies selling cars in the US specialized in performance vehicles, including the SUVs and trucks.

The American companies specialized more than the others, and ignored warning signs of the current push for FE vehicles.

The foreign companies were diversified since they had been building FE vehicles for the forgeign markets.

Currently, the foreign companies are bringing some of their FE cars here (though still not their best), which keeps them afloat.

The American companies are playing that great American game of "ketchup". They ignored the signs for FE requirements, weren't diverse, so don't have the FE experience that the foreign companies have.

The American companies concentrated on guzzlers to the exclusion of FE, the foreign companies have their guzzlers, but also have FE vehicles.

Diversity saves the foreign companies.

Not just foreign companies have FE cars.

American makers have plenty of FE cars; they just don't sell as well. People still get all huffy and talk about "crap GM quality" when you bring up even spectacular models like the new Malibu.

Toyota took a decade to make a profit on the Prius. If GM offered a Prius fighter they'd still be in the same boat today. In the end they spend more money to make and sell cars than Toyota.

This situation seriously makes me want to move to Canada. What kind of world is it where the public has to support a rich, bloated, stupid (and that's putting it kindly) auto industry?

To the CEOs/CFOs/CIOs/et-cetera of these corporations:

Sell your private jets
Sell your huge houses and buy reasonable ones (with a 30-year mortgage... do not pay cash... you're 'poor' now)
Take a pay cut (like down to < $100,000 per anum)
Take no bonuses
Give your company stocks you personally own to your hourly employees
Put on a sackcloth and sprinkle some ashes onto your foreheads and go beg your hourly employees for forgiveness for your mismanagement


and then, maybe, we'll talk about a bailout. :mad:

American makers have plenty of FE cars; they just don't sell as well.Very true - there are plenty of American economy cars, but their fuel economy and quality is not up to the Civic. GM boast of having more 30mpg cars than anyone else, but none of them are leaders....meanwhile Toyota and Honda has offerings that get 50mpg or better.

Very true - there are plenty of American economy cars, but their fuel economy and quality is not up to the Civic. GM boast of having more 30mpg cars than anyone else, but none of them are leaders....meanwhile Toyota and Honda has offerings that get 50mpg or better.

You beat me to it. :)

Very true - there are plenty of American economy cars, but their fuel economy and quality is not up to the Civic. GM boast of having more 30mpg cars than anyone else, but none of them are leaders....meanwhile Toyota and Honda has offerings that get 50mpg or better.

But does Toyota profit from the prius? Well now they do but they didn't for a long time. And the Cobalt XFE is just as capable as the Civic, the Fit is hardly an improvement over the Aveo....

Just seems to be more consumer trust in japanese brands as opposed to domestics.

And no automaker has 50 mpg cars available now. Only with HM'ing.

And no automaker has 50 mpg cars available now. Only with HM'ing.Combined - yes.

Highway only - yes.

The effort to get 50mpg in a Prius or Civic is so modest I'm not sure it could be called serious hypermiling.

But does Toyota profit from the prius? Well now they do but they didn't for a long time. And the Cobalt XFE is just as capable as the Civic, the Fit is hardly an improvement over the Aveo....

Just seems to be more consumer trust in japanese brands as opposed to domestics.

And no automaker has 50 mpg cars available now. Only with HM'ing.

Hi Greentec,

The Prius is mechanically very simple. Its a bit of malarky spread around that it does not make money. Remember, this is a $22K automobile.

All that gear hobbing and powdered metal sintering that goes into the traditional automatic transmission gears is expensive. These transmissions have 2 to 3 times the number of cogs and gears than a Prius transmission. Let alone the wet clutches in these automatic transmissions. There is not even a toothed flywheel in a Prius. More gear hobbing that is not done. There is no starter in a Prius - that is done as a secondary function of the generator MG1.

So, while a Prius battery may cost $2000 to the manufacturer $2500 to us, the total difference between a Prius and a 140 hp (similar acceleeration) automatic transmission car in manufacturing and materials cost has been quoted to be around $2500. Surely the motors and inverter cost more than $500, but getting rid of half the transmission gear set, the band clutches and hydraulic control costs (which is allot of precision metal craft), starter, AC compressor pulley set and mount (replaced by 4 bolts) and you can see why the can sell the car at what they do. They do not call it Hybrid SYNERGY Drive for nothing.

And now for some common sense. Can any car be sold worldwide in over 1 million copies (like the Prius) that does not make money ?

And do not give me that malarky that all the developement costs are expensive. Did that stop any car company, including Mini in 1957, from making front wheel drive cars? At some point, just making the same thing developed 50 years ago is just too expensive. Because the world changes, and what was once cheap (assembler time, steel, leather seat covers, wood-spoke wheels, buggy whips) is now expensive. Toyota just steered its development work into something that would be allot better. Not just next years car.

This situation seriously makes me want to move to Canada. What kind of world is it where the public has to support a rich, bloated, stupid (and that's putting it kindly) auto industry? ...

Is Canada any different? I thought the US and Canadian auto industries were essentially the same thing, very tightly interwoven. The US/Foreign parts content labels do not have to separate out the Canadian content as Foreign, probably because the bookkeeping to do so is often very impractical.

If you build it they will come. That is what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese saw what the americans couldn't deal with, which was a better design, and quality. Americans just went big and thought that would solve the whole problem.

The reason they couldnt spend on development like the Japanese could was simply the fat union problem. Take the union away and they have plenty of money. The CEO's were stupid to let things go and get paid big money, but the money is absolutely NOTHING compared to the union's money draining fighting against "the man". The Japanese don't have these stupid problems.

Is Canada any different? I thought the US and Canadian auto industries were essentially the same thing, very tightly interwoven. The US/Foreign parts content labels do not have to separate out the Canadian content as Foreign, probably because the bookkeeping to do so is often very impractical.

Perhaps they are somewhat interwoven. However, Canada is not practicing what amounts to corporate welfare; Canada isn't going to give billions of dollars of money to the auto industry. I believe Michael Moore, in his interview the other day with Larry King hit the nail right on the head in how the money should be spent with the auto industry. You can check it out on YouTube.

Here's an interesting article I just Googled:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20061113005311&newsLang=en

The top 10 global R&D spenders in 2005 were, in descending order: Ford, Pfizer, Toyota, Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Siemens, Johnson & Johnson, Microsoft, IBM, and GlaxoSmithKline.

That surprised me. I knew Toyota spends a lot on research & development. I didn't know that the Big Three are right up there, too.

Harry

Hi Greentec,

The Prius is mechanically very simple. Its a bit of malarky spread around that it does not make money. Remember, this is a $22K automobile.

All that gear hobbing and powdered metal sintering that goes into the traditional automatic transmission gears is expensive. These transmissions have 2 to 3 times the number of cogs and gears than a Prius transmission. Let alone the wet clutches in these automatic transmissions. There is not even a toothed flywheel in a Prius. More gear hobbing that is not done. There is no starter in a Prius - that is done as a secondary function of the generator MG1.

So, while a Prius battery may cost $2000 to the manufacturer $2500 to us, the total difference between a Prius and a 140 hp (similar acceleeration) automatic transmission car in manufacturing and materials cost has been quoted to be around $2500. Surely the motors and inverter cost more than $500, but getting rid of half the transmission gear set, the band clutches and hydraulic control costs (which is allot of precision metal craft), starter, AC compressor pulley set and mount (replaced by 4 bolts) and you can see why the can sell the car at what they do. They do not call it Hybrid SYNERGY Drive for nothing.

And now for some common sense. Can any car be sold worldwide in over 1 million copies (like the Prius) that does not make money ?
s development work into something that would be allot better. Not just next years car.

If the Prius is such a great money getter than why hasn't every Toyota /Lexus been standardized with this cost efficient hybrid system?

Almost every automotive related article from the past decade has placed the Prius as just a slight money lose, not making up it's cost of development and manufacture until the near 1 million sold. Do you have a link where that is shown wrong?

And the Cobalt XFE is just as capable as the Civic, the Fit is hardly an improvement over the Aveo....Are you serious? Maybe the Cobalt is just as FE-capable as the Civic, but to compare them overall ... you're joking, right?

Same with the Fit. Nothing in its class compares to it, not even the Versa and Yaris. The Aveo's a decent little car, but it's no Fit.

I find it funny how folks here question American car quality yet their rides are all imports. There is no major quality or reliability difference between foreign and domestic vehicles any more. I have owned most brands in the last 8 years and there is just no difference quality wise. If you want to say that imports are more visually appealing I'll buy that. But the facts don't bare out all the quality smack talk that is constantly spewed out here on this sight.

Maybe folks here need to do our country a favor and actually go drive an American car. Continuing to help foreign can manufacturers with an already stacked deck by telling people that American cars have sub par quality is just ignorant. Every consumer reporting magazine from Consumer Reports to Road and Track, and Autoweek chronicle the quality improvements that domestic cars have made and they are as good or better in all areas.

Please do your homework and stop bashing an industry because its cool. Do it because you are educated and have the facts which in this case most don't.

...Maybe folks here need to do our country a favor and actually go drive an American car. Continuing to help foreign can manufacturers with an already stacked deck by telling people that American cars have sub par quality is just ignorant....I need some help here.

I drive a Honda Insight that the EPA is around 60mpg overall.

I'd gladly get an American car if it could get 50 or at least 45mpg overall.

Could you help me find it?

I find it funny how folks here question American car quality yet their rides are all imports. There is no major quality or reliability difference between foreign and domestic vehicles any more. I have owned most brands in the last 8 years and there is just no difference quality wise. If you want to say that imports are more visually appealing I'll buy that. But the facts don't bare out all the quality smack talk that is constantly spewed out here on this sight.

Maybe folks here need to do our country a favor and actually go drive an American car. Continuing to help foreign can manufacturers with an already stacked deck by telling people that American cars have sub par quality is just ignorant. Every consumer reporting magazine from Consumer Reports to Road and Track, and Autoweek chronicle the quality improvements that domestic cars have made and they are as good or better in all areas.

Please do your homework and stop bashing an industry because its cool. Do it because you are educated and have the facts which in this case most don't.

I have no problem with the quality of American Autos (almost all of my vehicles have been American models).

However, with the current gas prices, we NEED FE models that the American companies just don't have.

I need some help here.

I drive a Honda Insight that the EPA is around 60mpg overall.

I'd gladly get an American car if it could get 50 or at least 45mpg overall.

Could you help me find it?

I see where you are coming from here and its a valid point. The Tesla maybe. These cars are not here yet unless you count (and can locate) a Geo metro. They will be I think but not yet.

My point was quality is not a valid argument here.

That Detroit could be getting a bum rap on quality, I'll conceed it's overblown.

That Detroit could be getting a bum rap on quality, I'll conceed it's overblown.

By the way where can I buy a new insight?

By the way where can I buy a new insight?

Yeah... That's got me a bit bummed too.

Along with my new Metro.

By the way where can I buy a new insight?Strange this is coming from someone that a few minutes ago was asking for us to go light on the Detroit-bashing. ;)

In the 80's the two-seater CRX in all three varieties were selling well. I'll admit the aluminum made the Insight over-priced, but I'll also point out the American consumer has redefined "too small" to not only include two-seaters, but in some cases, even full-sized sedans....at least until this summer when gas was $4.00 a gallon..

In the 80's the two-seater CRX in all three varieties were selling well. I'll admit the aluminum made the Insight over-priced, but I'll also point out the American consumer has redefined "too small" to not only include two-seaters, but in some cases, even full-sized sedans....at least until this summer when gas was $4.00 a gallon..

Good point. Not all of the blame can go to the auto companies when they were making what the majority of customers wanted.

The blame is that they haven't changed quickly enough when the customer changed.

I find it funny how folks here question American car quality yet their rides are all imports. There is no major quality or reliability difference between foreign and domestic vehicles any more.... Maybe folks here need to do our country a favor and actually go drive an American car. Continuing to help foreign can manufacturers with an already stacked deck by telling people that American cars have sub par quality is just ignorant... Please do your homework and stop bashing an industry because its cool. Do it because you are educated and have the facts which in this case most don't.

Most folks here have both empirical evidence (qua 1st-hand experience) that American cars are not up to the quality standards of, let's say, a Toyota or Honda. Even Consumer Reports states that Toyota is #1, followed by Honda for reliability. Just drive a 10 year old Honda Civic, then go drive a 10 year old Chevrolet Cavalier... you feel a difference. Actually - there's a good chance that the Cavalier will be on its second engine. ;)

My last vehicle was a 2004 Ford Explorer. It was in the shop monthly for check engine and ABS warning lights (a problem which they never solved and is a known problem). Also, about 1 year after purchase, it developed a vertical crack on the back 'trunk' next to the Ford logo (which Ford would not warranty). Look around at other 2004-ish Explorers... many of them have that same crack. My father-in-law has a 2006 Honda Civic with almost 400,000 miles on it that has only needed brake/oil changes, and a clutch at ~300,000 miles. It has LOTS of life left... that's common for a Japanese car that's well maintained. Not so common for a domestic car. :rolleyes:

Of course I'm sure there are some exceptions to the American-made cars. And I'm not saying it is the fault of those who build the cars (the workers). I seriously believe the cars are designed to not last a long time.

I fully expect my econo-box Honda Fit to go 500,000+ miles without a rebuild or any major problems. I just couldn't be so sure if I had purchased a domestic...

The truth is most American families buy based on need and practicality not FE. This just recently changed. It will be a long time before we see a car or truck with 60 MPG FE that can comfortably fit an active family of 4 or 5 which is what many here really need. A 2 seat 60 mpg vehicle is great, but about as practical as a corvette for most people.

I still can't understand or really forgive Detroit for saying they were ambushed by the events of 2008. For years they had to know better than anyone here that cheap gas and easy credit would come to an end - then what? No Plan B - full-sized pickups and SUVs or bust. Little attention to sedans and subcompacts because the UAW is too overpriced to make this profitable, so starter vehicles tend to be Japanese and they get a generation hooked - not to mention the best-selling sedans are Accords and Camrys.

A 2 seat 60 mpg vehicle is great, but about as practical as a corvette for most people.Quite a few here have a different story.

Single-occupant drivers have increased until 80% drive to work alone - that flies in the face of the assertion that a two-seater is a tiny niche market.

Most cars in the 1960's would today be considered "too small" - lot's of drivers need a reality check in this regard.

I still can't understand or really forgive Detroit for saying they were ambushed by the events of 2008. For years they had to know better than anyone here that cheap gas and easy credit would come to an end - then what? No Plan B - full-sized pickups and SUVs or bust. Little attention to sedans and subcompacts because the UAW is too overpriced to make this profitable, so starter vehicles tend to be Japanese and they get a generation hooked - not to mention the best-selling sedans are Accords and Camrys.

They did have a plan. Unforunatly it came a bit to late.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682

Can they make it till 2010? Will they find a way to liquidate the legacy costs of the retires?

We shall see for sure but if they do I am interested to see what kind of vehicles we get in 5 years or so.

My '99 Civic is going on ten years old.

It's remarkable how the steering is just as precise and tight as the day I bought it.

The car was having trouble recently with stalling. I had it back to a Honda dealer. I explained how it would shut right off while going down the road, the instruments would zero out and there were no warning lights.

The dealer changed the ignition switch. She explained that my car should have been part of a recall for ignition switches, but was somehow missed. They replaced the ignition switch for free, with no charges for labor or anything.

When's the last time a ten-year-old Big Three car was fixed for free?

And that was the only thing wrong with the car. It's still a joy to drive, with many, many more miles left in it.

Harry

Quite a few here have a different story.

Single-occupant drivers have increased until 80% drive to work alone - that flies in the face of the assertion that a two-seater is a tiny niche market.

Most cars in the 1960's would today be considered "too small" - lot's of drivers need a reality check in this regard.

I agree that I rarely dive with more than 2 people im my car. If cars were 10k it would be no problem to own a car for each occasion. Unfortunatly cars are generally 24k or more and I have a 4 person family and we buy cars to go camping and to swim meets not just drive to work and back.

I have 2 cars that are decidedly small for what we do. This is just for the reason that I frequent this site. 17 hours of suffering with 4 people and coolers to florida once or twice a year is no reason to buy a vehicle that only gets 15 MPG. My family would argue otherwise during the trip.

One thing that would have helped is if the American consumer had been more demanding of an FE vehicle. I did not "hang" Detroit. If I fail to please my employer and get fired, no one can or should sympathize with me any more than Detroit now.

This is like the Chicken or the Egg - was it leadfooted drivers or Detroit marketing leading the SUV charge? The public should have said enough years ago. Both are guilty as sin.

I find many of these commercials offensive > Why is Detroit in Trouble? (The Ads) (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17035&highlight=superman) When I'm looking for a vehicle, do I really need to consider if it's intimidating, makes me feel manly (or for women - not feel helpless), powerful, etc? The ads tell me Detroit can't sell quality, so they market their vehicles like beer or Viagra. Sorry, but check them out for yourself.

Need to add I'd be happy if my next car was a Volt if it goes 40miles on a charge and has quality/price competitive with Prius and Civic.

I've said this at least once before.

Good point. Not all of the blame can go to the auto companies when they were making what the majority of customers wanted.

The blame is that they haven't changed quickly enough when the customer changed.

Automakers were heavily pushing and marketing the "more power", "big car", "it's safer", "it's manly" angles for giant cars for some time. I think that the "it's what customers wanted" reasoning was more a self-fulfilling prophecy and effective marketing than actual demand.

Besides, during this time, the Corolla was still king of sales, the Prius had waiting lists, and Honda, who really didn't make any guzzlers, was still high on lists of sales and customer satisfaction.

There is no major quality or reliability difference between foreign and domestic vehicles any more. I have owned most brands in the last 8 years and there is just no difference quality wise. If you want to say that imports are more visually appealing I'll buy that. But the facts don't bare out all the quality smack talk that is constantly spewed out here on this sight.

Maybe folks here need to do our country a favor and actually go drive an American car
If you're going to charge everyone around here with being uninformed, at least you could bring more solid evidence to back up your own case. Most of the information I have available to me tells me that the Japanese automakers -- particularly the "better" ones (Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus/Scion and Subaru) are still superior to the domestics.

One thing most import owners have over domestic owners is we are regularly exposed to the other side. NEARLY ALL RENTAL CARS ARE AMERICAN, so those of us who rent cars periodically get regularly exposed to what Detroit has to offer.

DESIGN QUALITY
When it comes to design quality and driving experience, I still find the Big 3 lacking. I'm talking about the level of refinement, the action of the switchgear, the quality of materials, the driving experience, the little ergonomic details. Maybe that stuff isn't important to you -- a humble perspective I can respect -- but that doesn't make the domestics as good as the imports in this regard.

Ford has gotten close, and the last Focus I drove was mostly a delight despite some odd design details. But GM and Chrysler are far behind -- especially when it comes to small cars, which are all that matter to me.

RELIABILITY - STATISTICAL
But let's talk about reliability, which is often what people mean by "quality" I'm looking at the Consumer Reports website right now. Yes, their recent article on reliability says Ford is nearly on par with some of the Japanese automakers. But it's not so kind to GM or Chrysler.

I'm also looking at CR's chart of overall predicted reliability for 34 makes. For copyright purposes I can't paste it here, but it ain't pretty for the domestics. Ford ranks dead in the middle, below all the Asian makes except poor Suzuki, and Mercury's only a couple notches higher. Lincoln comes in just below the top ten, and good on them for that, but that's a pretty small slice of FMC's sales and at this juncture Lincoln is irrelevant to cleanmpg'ers.

ALL of the other US makes are ranked in the bottom half, below Ford. Once-darling Saturn is next-to-last, with only lowly Land Rover scoring worse.

At the top end of the spectrum, ALL of the top ten spots are held by Asian automakers, eight of them Japanese and two Korean.

RELIABILITY - ANECDOTAL
And then there's my own anecdotal (but real) personal experience with reliability: Over the years I've driven FIVE Japanese cars past 150k, with nary a significant problem other than routine maintenance. Most recently, I sold my Outback earlier this year, 150k on the clock and tight as a drum with NO squeaks or rattles, solid as when it was new. Prior to that, my previous Legacy was running flawlessly when it was stolen (!) with 205k on the odo.

On the domestic side, I have bought two GM cars new so don't say I've never helped those guys out. My first car was a Pontiac Grand Am that was pretty decent overall, but developed a severe hesitation problem at 60k that multiple dealers couldn't fix. The other was a Saturn that went to the stealership TEN TIMES in the first year to fix things. Many of those trips were for more than one problem: parts falling off everywhere, squeaks and rattles galore, front discs repeatedly re-warping every 2k miles, and a severe engine knock that the dealership claimed not to be able to reproduce. Pile of junk, not to mention inferior in design quality to the 9 year old Honda I had just sold when I bought it.

THE VALIDITY OF HISTORY
You would be right to argue that my experiences with reliability are historical and might not necessarily apply to new models. But even if new models have higher initial build quality, how do we know how they'll hold up? Detroit has a long history of designing cars that seem great when new, but quickly lose their luster after just 2-3 years. For better or worse, history MUST play a role in these judgments.

You might reply that Detroit can't wait for us to wait until these cars are 3-4 years old to see how they're holding up. And I'd reply that you're right.

Full disclosure: I own a few shares of Honda stock. I bought them many years ago, when I recognized that Honda was committed not only to leading the industry not only on quality but on the environment. So far I haven't been proven wrong.

The starter car is critical to a company. Detroit has not put much of their resources in cars, but that's where a generation was introduced to Japanese cars. Once brand loyality is developed, it's hard to get buyers to switch.

The starter car is critical to a company. Detroit has not put much of their resources in cars, but that's where a generation was introduced to Japanese cars. Once brand loyality is developed, it's hard to get buyers to switch.Good point. Detroit has long skimped on the small starter cars that introduce people to the brand.

I find it funny how folks here question American car quality yet their rides are all imports. ...

All my *remaining* rides are imports. But in name only, as the Vehicles: listed above were actually built here.

I grew up in a Ford family, my parents gave me a used Ford for college, and my own first purchase was a Ford. And it lasted as long any car (not including pickups) ever lasted within the family, a bit longer than a decade. But the Honda listed above came along just two years behind that last Ford. It, and DW's car (our only true import), changed expectations for longevity to two+ decades.

... I have owned most brands in the last 8 years and there is just no difference quality wise. ...

Not having a need to be in the auto market during that time, I wouldn't know.

Let me know how those brands compare through their second decade of life.

The truth is most American families buy based on need and practicality not FE. ... A 2 seat 60 mpg vehicle is great, but about as practical as a corvette for most people.

Need, practicality, FE, 2 seats, and a big enough hatchback to hold light luggage and two bicycles inside. That doesn't fit the typical family, but it still fits my household, and a couple tens of millions of others.

Most of you are on good terms with your boss (I hope) - may be on very good terms.

That relationship can be jepordized with underperformance.

So it is with GM, Ford, and Chrysler - are they delivering the quality vehicles we need? With two of the Big Three weeks from bankruptcy, the obvious answer is they have underperformed. To suggest dislikes alone have put them in these dire straits is denial. In fact, millions have bought GM. Ford, Chrysler when they otherwise would not because they are American brands. Good will does not last unless it's backed up with performance and responding to consumer needs.

At a number of my jobs, a companies did things that should shut them down....eventually it did - just took time. Detroit has had a very long grace period of addressing a bad business model - 30 or more years. Even with the perfect storm in 2008 of high gas prices followed by a severe recession, the CEO's fly in to Washington on individual private jets with no plan or much information....why would that not anger you? Only 18 months ago, they screamed that honest CAFE standards would bankrupt them - the marketplace is doint that now. Japan has had strict CAFE-like standards for at least a decade. Only two years ago, Bob Lutz blogged introducing new trucks and SUVs while counterintutive was the wise thing to do. Just think of your jobs of people doing the wrong thing again and again....frustrating isn't it? Generally and employee is disliked with repeated bad performance, and the only recourse is responding with a succession of good performances.

I wish when I got my Insight there was a domestically-made alternative with similar FE and good for 200,000+ miles, or for that matter a Detroit alternative to the Civic, Prius, or Camry.

I hope Detroit turns around, but things don't look too good.