Archives

I just wanted to write briefly about voter registration fraud since it's been on the news a lot. (Evidently, Fox News has devoted more time since Saturday to ACORN than to the economy.)

Voter registration fraud is a big problem, obviously. ACORN tends to hire people at relatively low wages and give them registration quotas to meet, so a higher-than-normal percentage of registrations that they get are fraudulent. A key point worth noting: by law, in most states, ACORN is not allowed to filter out bad registrations. (Neither can any other group getting new registrants.) They have to pass them all on to the board of elections.

It's also worth noting that voter registration fraud almost never leads to actual voter fraud, and certainly not on a large scale. Mickey Mouse and Tony Romo aren't going to show up and vote in Nevada. That said, fraudulent registrations do gum up the system, especially when larger-than-normal numbers of new voters register. Whatever you think of ACORN, and I have mixed feelings, roughly 95% of the registration forms they turn in are legitimate new voters.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

It'll just affect Obama's actual performance, that's all. Because when pollsters make their polls, they have target numbers of registered people to get, and if Democrats are systematically over-represented then it's not an accurate poll anymore.

What makes me angry about ACORN is the clear partisanship in favor of Obama. It's not hard to get someone who's truly indifferent to vote one way or another if you can get them in the booth (ex. busing homeless people to polling places).

I see this differently. Investigations in 11 states leads me to wonder if the pattern of fraud is by design.
Obamas relationship to ACORN isn't easy to explain away.

It's fraud. No such thing as a little fraud being forgivable. Someone higher up in Acorn should be spending some time doing time.

Well, if this is wrong, and Obama has worked, hired, and trained at ACORN, then Obama should support investigation in whatever way and openly and actively denounce this type of fraud. He should call for fairness and only want to win by a fair vote. What virtuous person running for commander in chief wouldn't honestly want that?
If he doesn't this would show serious character flaws and bring his honesty into question. And his validity as a good choice to run the most powerful nation on the face of the earth.

If anyone at Burger King is caught being dishonest, they are fired. Why should this be any less important? I hold Mc Cain to the same fire if we are to be fair.

It's also worth noting that voter registration fraud almost never leads to actual voter fraud, and certainly not on a large scale.

Massive voter fraud can only occur from the top by those with power & access to destroy or "lose" large numbers of ballots. Think Daley in Chicago.

Voter fraud at the bottom is simply not feasible:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/points/stories/DN-hasen_10edi.ART.State.Edition1.436da28.html


"At least in hindsight, the center's line of argument is easily deconstructed. First, arguing by anecdote is dangerous business. A new report by Lorraine Minnite of Barnard College looks at these anecdotes and shows them to be, for the most part, wholly spurious. Sure, one can find a rare case of someone voting in two jurisdictions, but nothing extensive or systematic has been unearthed or documented.

But perhaps most importantly, the idea of massive polling-place fraud (through the use of inflated voter rolls) is inherently incredible. Suppose I want to swing the Missouri election for my preferred presidential candidate. I would have to figure out who the fake, dead or missing people on the registration rolls are, then pay a lot of other individuals to go to the polling place and claim to be that person, without any return guarantee - thanks to the secret ballot - that any of them will cast a vote for my preferred candidate.

Those who do show up at the polls run the risk of being detected and charged with a felony. And for what - $10? Polling-place fraud, in short, makes no sense.

The Justice Department devoted unprecedented resources to ferreting out fraud over five years and appears to have found not a single prosecutable case across the country. Of the many experts consulted, the only dissenter from that position was a representative of the now-evaporated American Center for Voting Rights."


Alberto Gonzales resigned because of the US Attorneys scandal. In 2006, Republican US attorneys in certain swing states were pressured by the current administration to open voter fraud investigations. Some did. Others, like Republican David Iglesias, looked at the evidence and concluded that there was no fraud occuring. He was fired and replaced with someone more amenable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy

Voter fraud is a political weapon, not a serious problem. It appears like clockwork during the election cycle, and disappears after the election is over.

The proof that it is not a serious problem? The number of federal voting fraud convictions 2002-2007? 86.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all

The proof that it is not a serious problem? The number of federal voting fraud convictions 2002-2007? 86.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all

The number of convictions for any crime is rarely evidence that something isn't a problem. How many child molesters were arrested before Dateline aired "To catch a predator" The problem already existed and was getting worse. Just most law enforcement agencies either didn't know about it or didn't consider it a large problem.

Voter fraud will only get worse if we do nothing about it. This should be a nonpartisan issue.

Voter fraud is a political weapon, not a serious problem. It appears like clockwork during the election cycle, and disappears after the election is over.

Why would you have voter fraud outside of an election?

Why would you have voter fraud outside of an election?
voter registrations happen year around not just during elections. Voter fraud happens most frequently before presidential elections.

My point is that the problem with ACORN's voter registration policy (the hiring I mentioned in the original post) tends toward registration fraud. However, the article mparrish quotes demonstrates the real issue pretty clearly. Registration fraud rarely leads to vote fraud. Also, given the oversight in checking registrations--SSNs and Driver's License numbers have to match--actual fraud at the polls in any significant number is tremendously improbable.

What false registrations demonstrate is how behind the times a lot of the oversight systems are. Secretaries of State don't have the most efficient technology for checking for fraud, just as we don't have very efficient ways of voting and counting votes.

Also, run500mph, Senator Obama has not "worked, hired, and trained at ACORN." As he mentioned tonight, he represented them in court (along with the U.S. Justice Department), and he worked with them to help pass the motor-voter law in Illinois. Also, when he worked to register 150,000 voters in poor areas of Chicago before he became a state Senator, Project Vote (the group he worked with) coordinated with ACORN, in large part to avoid multiple registrations.

The major point, which mparrish made better than I did: voter registration fraud rarely translates into voter fraud. In some stories I've seen in the media, this point has been getting missed.

why would someone go to the the trouble to complete a voter registration form incorrectly then? If registration fraud is happening and voter fraud isn't then whats the point. I have to disagree one goes with the other.

why would someone go to the the trouble to complete a voter registration form incorrectly then? If registration fraud is happening and voter fraud isn't then whats the point. I have to disagree one goes with the other.

Booferama mentioned it earlier:

"ACORN tends to hire people at relatively low wages and give them registration quotas to meet, so a higher-than-normal percentage of registrations that they get are fraudulent."

Employees get paid by ACORN to register non-existent Tony Romos in Nevada.

Another way of saying it:

This is fraud committed AGAINST ACORN. In these fraud cases, they are paying people and getting no Democratic voter in return. They are spending limited resources and failing to advance their cause.

I actually don't know anything about quotas, but I do know that employees get paid for more registrations. So you get fraudulent ones for a few extra bucks.

Bush won Ohio by a mere 120k votes (2%) in 2004, giving him the election. For significant voter fraud to occur to overturn that result, you'd have to fraudulently register 130,000 and then have a small army acquire fake photo ID for each of those 130,000 and move from precinct to precinct casting votes. 10 precincts per person would mean 13,000 people voting over and over again in neighborhood after neighborhood. There's just no way such a scheme could ever be kept secret.

Now down here in Texas, Landslide Lyndon could make 130,000 ballots disappear with the help of politically connected friends. :)

But that's the whole point. Voter fraud happens because of people in power.

Booferama mentioned it earlier:

"ACORN tends to hire people at relatively low wages and give them registration quotas to meet, so a higher-than-normal percentage of registrations that they get are fraudulent."

Employees get paid by ACORN to register non-existent Tony Romos in Nevada.

Another way of saying it:

This is fraud committed AGAINST ACORN. In these fraud cases, they are paying people and getting no Democratic voter in return. They are spending limited resources and failing to advance their cause.

I actually don't know anything about quotas, but I do know that employees get paid for more registrations. So you get fraudulent ones for a few extra bucks.

After the election we will see how many of them voted. Wonder who Mickey Mouse will vote for?

If ACORN can't control their people any better than this maybe we shouldn't be granting them $800,000.

I still see a greater problem that seems to be ignored by ACORN because ultimately it helps their candidate. If this is truly a action against ACORN a good start would be to fire every single State coordinator and manager that allowed this to happen. I won't hold my breath.

Here's what's important to remember about ACORN, whether you like or dislike them: even though they bring in false registrations, they bring in a much greater number of actual registrations of voters who wouldn't have otherwise registered. Their goal is to give more people the opportunity to vote.

Here's how that matters. People living in poorer areas are less likely to be registered to vote, for various reasons. ACORN gets those voters registered. And when someone fills out a false registration form, ACORN, by law, cannot throw it out. They have to turn it in to the board of elections. They flag the forms they think might be false (Mickey Mouse, Tony Romo) and pass them on to the board of elections.

Since the vast majority of false registrations get thrown out by Secretaries of State, I'm not sure what the problem with getting new voters registered is.

The real problem is forged documents and ILLEGAL immigrants who use them. We badly need a national voter ID card - an ID used ONLY when voting and which is as foolproof as possible against forgery.

The real problem is forged documents and ILLEGAL immigrants who use them. We badly need a national voter ID card - an ID used ONLY when voting and which is as foolproof as possible against forgery.

I have the feeling privacy advocates are going to be responding your message. I'm not against it due to privacy....I just don't need another card. If a federal issued card is required for any "normal" activity, they I'd just as soon they took over issuing driver & non-driver IDs. The state might still issue, but it would occur at a federal level. Certainly that would help curb certain fraud. You can't have two IDs issued without raising a flag. You can't have two votes against an id without a huge flag. Might also make online voting easier. If you register for online voting, just enter ID & a control number (password). An email can be sent to an email address of your choice confirming vote, which would also let you know if someone used your id. You could also check online to make sure your vote is what you entered & not tampered by either an individual or a database error.

Acorn should be abolished, theyhave been associated with fraud in nearly every election. I DO NOT support Obama, however I am possitive that he is not involved in this. There are over 200,000 voter registration forms being held right now in Ohio....that is more than the margin of victory for Bush.

Under the old "Emergency" bail out, 20% of the profits collected by us was going to go to Acorn....the one that passed see them getting 4 % now.

It is not comforting to see a judge allow same day voting and registration.

This is kind of like all the messes that occured when people counting "chads" were seen actually popping them out with their rings....recount after recount after recount still had the same conclusion....like it or not, Bush won and the election was not stolen and when voting hours were not allowed to stay open past their closing times that is not stealing an election.

I used to be a damn Lib, now I see both sides of issues, not the sound bites that the main press sticks out there.

Example, when Rumsfeld supposedly said you go to war with what you have in response to a troopers question about more armoured vehicles, when in reality those were just a cropped set of words out of a nearly 20 min full explanation.

Sarah Palin is not qualified, yet she has tons more experience then Obama.

Libs used to ask why the Bush daughters are not in Iraq, but they never asked why Chelsea Clinton was not in Bosnia!

Libs used to ask why the Bush daughters are not in Iraq, but they never asked why Chelsea Clinton was not in Bosnia!

Just a hunch, but it probably had something to do with the fact that Chelsea was 15 when the Dayton Peace Accords brought that war to an end in 1995.

That and we didn't have any troops on the ground in Bosnia during the actual 1992-95 conflict itself.

We did have Navy pilots targeting Serb positions though! Maybe we should have pressured Chelsea to take part in that. Probably need a driver's license first though. Stupid government. ;)

The real problem is forged documents and ILLEGAL immigrants who use them. We badly need a national voter ID card - an ID used ONLY when voting and which is as foolproof as possible against forgery.
In Indiana, a picture ID is required by law to vote. The law was challenged by the Dems because it supposedly discriminated against lower income and minority groups. The problem with that objection was the fact that the ID's are issued for free at any BMV branch. The challenge was promptly thrown out.

I have to admit I don't understand why ACORN should be abolished. They have passed on fraudulent registrations but have not been associated with actual voter fraud. Also, they've registered over one million new, valid voters. Also, many of the voter registration forms being held weren't collected by ACORN; many are being held because of spelling discrepencies, which are not that difficult to check out.

Also, the same-day registration and voting happens long before the election (in Ohio, that ended Oct. 6), giving the Board of Elections and Secretary of State time to evaluate the veracity of the new registrations.

Two other points: First, Sarah Palin doesn't have more experience than Barack Obama. He has twelve years of legislative experience, plus years spent as a civil rights attorney and teacher of constitutional law. He also helped 150,000 people register to vote in poorer areas of Chicago. (These were valid registrations, so hold your wisecracks.) If you think I'm wrong about all this, list in detail her specific accomplishments. (Being "a reformer" isn't an accomplishment, it's a claim unless it's got evidence to back it up.)

Second point: Voters who are in line by the time polls are closed are legally supposed to be able to vote. Many of those were turned away in 2004. (This is why Republicans in Ohio passed the early voting law.)

Acorn should be abolished, theyhave been associated with fraud in nearly every election. I DO NOT support Obama, however I am possitive that he is not involved in this. There are over 200,000 voter registration forms being held right now in Ohio....that is more than the margin of victory for Bush.

Under the old "Emergency" bail out, 20% of the profits collected by us was going to go to Acorn....the one that passed see them getting 4 % now.

It is not comforting to see a judge allow same day voting and registration.

This is kind of like all the messes that occured when people counting "chads" were seen actually popping them out with their rings....recount after recount after recount still had the same conclusion....like it or not, Bush won and the election was not stolen and when voting hours were not allowed to stay open past their closing times that is not stealing an election.

I used to be a damn Lib, now I see both sides of issues, not the sound bites that the main press sticks out there.

Example, when Rumsfeld supposedly said you go to war with what you have in response to a troopers question about more armoured vehicles, when in reality those were just a cropped set of words out of a nearly 20 min full explanation.

Sarah Palin is not qualified, yet she has tons more experience then Obama.

Libs used to ask why the Bush daughters are not in Iraq, but they never asked why Chelsea Clinton was not in Bosnia!

One more thing: here's a very good, thorough article (http://www.slate.com/id/2202428/) about the difference between voter-registration fraud and actual voter fraud. It's full of linky goodness.

McCain is a pretty good candidate. He is then only Rep that could have beaten a Dem this year.Unfortunately, he is also Rep and the economy has tanked under a Rep president. He has zero chance of winning in this economy. We are the edge of a depression-not many folks want a Rep president in during a depression.

Look at the polls.
Charlie
PS Negative ads do work; that is why the Dems are complaining about them. If they were actually backfiring, they-the Dem talking heads-would shut their mouths. Without the Neg ads, McCain might be 15 points back!

Voter fraud is a issue. It happens here at massive levels every four years. The registered rep votes are always within 50 to 200 of the actual registered reps. While the dem votes are always 1500 to 3000 more votes cast than the registered voter roll would suggest possible. You go and inquire about it and folks get ugly in a hurry!

The registered rep votes are always within 50 to 200 of the actual registered reps. While the dem votes are always 1500 to 3000 more votes cast than the registered voter roll would suggest possible. You go and inquire about it and folks get ugly in a hurry!

Your numbers don't make sense to me. Are you saying that more than 100% of regisered voters in your precinct, city, or state actually cast ballots in a particular election?

According to the US Census Bureau, 86% of registered voters cast ballots in 2000, and 82% in 1996. Percentage of registered voters casting ballots in state & local elections only is generally much lower than in presidential elections.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p20-542.pdf

Voter fraud is a issue. It happens here at massive levels every four years. The registered rep votes are always within 50 to 200 of the actual registered reps. While the dem votes are always 1500 to 3000 more votes cast than the registered voter roll would suggest possible. You go and inquire about it and folks get ugly in a hurry!

Well, that would explain why Dems dominate Oklahoma. ;)

A claim that Dem vote totals exceed Dem registration totals in a precinct or city is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof.

When I first saw the numbers years ago I was amazed, shocked!

I went to the county elect. board about the unreal numbers and all but got thrown out. There use to be links on the net. I looked for them lastnight. And I wont go back into our crocked elect. board ever again.

Well, that would explain why Dems dominate Oklahoma. ;)

A claim that Dem vote totals exceed Dem registration totals in a precinct or city is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof.

Do you count the dead people, pets, emmigrants to Australia, small children, and the Dems who only vote twice instead of 3 times?

Voter fraud really isn't newsworthy around Illinois, sadly.

My late father worked as an election judge about ten years after my sister and I had moved away from home (Western Mo). He removed us and a couple of people that he knew were dead from the rolls. His observation was that the real opportunity for fraud would come from knowing who had moved away, died, or was planning to not vote so you could send somebody in to vote your way using that unused identity.

Registration fraud seems like it would be an unnecessarily expensive and time consuming way to steal an election. It would be much easier to check death notices or changes in occupancy at addresses against voter registration lists. This activity would also be easier to target because it could wait until near the election after pivotal districts had been identified by polling. Turning away voters by not sending enough functional voting machines out to the precincts that usually don't vote your way would be even less expensive and time consuming.

If you are concerned about voter fraud be sure to cancel your old registrations when you move and be sure to vote so that nobody else votes in your place.:flag:

Voter fraud is a issue. It happens here at massive levels every four years. The registered rep votes are always within 50 to 200 of the actual registered reps. While the dem votes are always 1500 to 3000 more votes cast than the registered voter roll would suggest possible. You go and inquire about it and folks get ugly in a hurry!

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Couldn't this also mean that in your area non-affiliated "independents" tend to vote dem rather than rep? I've noticed that a lot of democrats who work for republicans dare not voice their political preference (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/erbe/2008/10/15/christopher-buckleys-forced-resignation-and-the-rights-intolerance-problem.html).

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Couldn't this also mean that in your area non-affiliated "independents" tend to vote dem rather than rep? I've noticed that a lot of democrats who work for republicans dare not voice their political preference[/URL].

It goes the other way too. Reps under Dems are really uncomfortable right now.

Of course, the bigger factor is that this man was a paid commentator for a political magazine with a well-established and defined ideology and he broke with it publicly.

If a GM VP came out and publicly stated in the NY Times that everyone should buy Toyota/Honda, would you expect him to keep his job?

If the VP for new Apple development told CNN that Macs were a POS and everyone should use Linux freeware, would Steve Jobs respect his opinion?

No. This is someone being stupid and whining about it.

It goes the other way too. Reps under Dems are really uncomfortable right now.

Of course, the bigger factor is that this man was a paid commentator for a political magazine with a well-established and defined ideology and he broke with it publicly.
....

The stereotype is that bosses tend to be republican and workers tend to be democrat. I've observed the tendency both at universities and behind drill rigs. I'm too lazy to google up the demographics for you.

I actually read Buckley's essay (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-10-10/the-conservative-case-for-obama) (he's a favorite author)--he appeared to be breaking with the candidate McCain rather than with the Conservative/Libertarian ideology on which the magazine was founded.

Time for the next generation of Buckley's to found another magazine I guess.

I've noticed another possible reason for the ACORN tactics. The majority of their registrants were for the Democrat party. While this doesn't necessarily lead to actual voter fraud, it could have another useful effect: It would artificially inflate the lead in the polls of registered voters which could lead people to say, "What's the use in voting? They are so far ahead it won't matter." Just an observation. I should note that this tactic could be used by either party.