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Hi All:

___I just received an offer from a Honda media group that would like me to be in the LA area on the 8th through the 12th to give a Hypermiling presentation and offer behind the wheel training for other journalists on how to drive the Insight-II.

___Still preliminary but what a great way to find out a bit about the Insight-II!

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Insight-II_Collage01.jpg

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Oh MAN!!!!

Geez. Some people get all the luck... :p

Sean,

Does that mean you would trade in the Insight you currently have for this one? :D

I am glad you get to preview it. At least we will get an honest and through review ...Talk them into giving you one and they can put all the stickers they want all over it, cheap advertising..:)

Sean,

Does that mean you would trade in the Insight you currently have for this one? :D

Uh... not quite. ;)

I would definitely love to preview it though!! I secretly wish I could get my wife to drive one and thereby have a 2 Insight garage. :D

Hey, Wayne -- ask 'em where the IMA cancel button is. :p

WOW!! WAY TO GO WAYNE!!!! CAN I BE YOU IN the second week of december!???? :). That's great news~~!!!!

That just rocks... hopefully they manage to stay within their current price point.

I can't wait to see the results.

I hope this works out for you Wayne. I'm looking forward to seeing what the Insight II is really capable of.

:woot:

That's a good bit of news, to say the least!

Awesome news Wayne

So if Honda would like another Wayne out there with you, just let me know Excel!

Have fun - If you can get some pics of the "guts" of the car, that would be most excellent..

W-

Hot dog!, can't wait to hear more

Hey Wayne, that's awesome they offered you that, the Insight looks so sweet!!

I could see you talking them into letting you drive it (for practice) for a few days before the event. Then you will know more and be more knowlegable about it. Great Job!

Awesome! Like Parasite, I hope you get a chance to drive the car by your self to learn it and what not.

Can't wait!

Oh MAN!!!!

Geez. Some people get all the luck... :p

No fake! I'll be watching this one.

Hey don't forget your 'ole buddy in LA, huh?
Would a Tommy's chiliburger be a sufficient bribe? :D

Hi Tarabell:

___In a heart clogging nanosecond for one of those ;)

___I have not heard back from the media people on this one in a few weeks so who knows now :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Busy couple months coming up for you Wayne. :)

Don't forget to make time for family!

i think you need someone to go along to present the female point of view.....:D

Hi, Ben!! Long time no see!

I think you should go too, Laurie... but you hate planes?

Guys, I just got a call from Wayne -- he's onsite right now and Honda is really serious about this car!! They've got a silver Insight I, an HCH-II, FOUR Prius, and multiple Insight IIs out there for testing. :eek:

There are guards around the new Insights and Wayne recognizes one of the Honda engineers he's spoken with in the past -- this is a BIG deal, folks!

There aren't any other journalists there yet but Wayne is planning on setting up a sort of run off competition to see if the other guys can beat his mileage. :D. We all know how that's going to go, right?

In person the car definitely resembles the Prius but has plenty of styling cues and proportions setting it apart from the competition -- you can see hints of the first gen car in this one.

Wayne is about to sign the NDAs so we won't be getting much of anything else until January, but man how exciting is this???

Sounds very cool...can't wait to test drive one..

YESS!! That's awesome!!! I can't wait to hear how this turns out!! GOOD LUCK WAYNE! Take that prize and take that Insight II for all it's worth!!!

... Wayne is about to sign the NDAs so we won't be getting much of anything else until January, but man how exciting is this???

Darn those NDAs ... So I have to contain my excitement for another month?

Oh well, my '86 Honda won't get replaced until both Insight-II and Prius-III are available for comparisons. Though still running like an Energizer Bunny, it's age is closing in on it. And more importantly, nothing of its era can survive a tailgater like this: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17883.

congrats Wayne you worked hard for it, can't wait for your article on the insight II! Will give the TDI's for their money.

Wayne called yesterday -- he can't give too many details but he says:


It feels bigger inside than the Fit platform it appears to be based upon.
The Eco gauge stuff really works!!!
The assist algorithms are a bit different than previous iterations of IMA.

He likes the car and is enjoying his time exploring its capabilities. :)

Sounds great!

is wayne still going to get to test drive the TDI like VW promised earlier? Or are they afraid its just not living up to its hype? It would be nice to see Wayne took full advantage of this "clean diesel" and offer his insights!

Can't wait for that Wayne's review! Paragraphs of gold :D

I know that Wayne has driven one, but not on a longer term review basis. He said it is a good car but doesn't have the super high steady state numbers the Honda diesels do.

Here's another tidbit about the Insight II: Wayne has been driving the car through all sorts of terrain and he says the official ratings (not released yet) don't do the car justice. :thumbs_up:

Boy all these tidbits are exciting! I'm glad Wayne is out there setting the bar. If he's getting high numbers the journalistas can't claim their (lower) drive-like-an-idiot numbers mean it doesn't meet expectations. Astute move by Honda to have him there.

Now... if I only had 20k to spend on a car ;).

yea diesel's price is a 20 cents more per liter around here, so if this car is priced much cheaper than the vw TDI then doesn't look like much hope for the clean diesel generation.

20 k is not bad if he's liking it more than a prius

If the 18,5 figure is accurate you're looking at just above 19 after taxes and fees

just don't put any accessories on it

I see this car coming in at $19,250 without the destination fee for the base version. Putting it right under $20,000 with the current $670 destination fee. I think this is more likely given the current exchange rate between the dollar and yen.

It sounds awesome though. Can't wait to here the specs and drive one.

Honda's aren't as overpriced as many other companies are in Canada.

For example, the Prius is 27,400 in Canada and 22,000 in the US. Less than 2 years ago this difference was over 10 grand, but it's still a 25% price gap.

The current Honda Civic hybrid is 23550 in the US and 26350 in Canada. That's a price difference of 12%. If that same gap holds true, the new Insight II could pull in at about 21560 in Canada. That's a huge gap between the Prius and one that will force Toyota to lower their price gouging standard on the Prius in Canada or lose sales to Honda like how the expired $1000 eco rebate from the government saw Yaris sales cannibalize Fit sales in Canada because the Fit didn't qualify for the rebate, but the Yaris did. At that time our Yaris cost 3 grand less than an equally equipped Fit.

Wayne called again last night -- there are lots of heavy hitters coming in to take the wheel today! He dropped some names... including from Motor Trends and AutoblogGreen. :)

Though not directly related to the new Insight, he also had some new info that should be of interest here. There have been rumors that the new Honda diesel engine failed emissions testing and that's why it isn't being offered in the US. This is incorrect. The real reasons are that the precious metals used in the emissions system have increased drastically in price and the price differential between gas and diesel fuel is large enough here that it isn't economically feasible to bring it to market. The third point is that Honda still intends to bring it over (yes, still targeted for the Acura TSX) but is waiting for those prices to come back in line with what they project is needed to make the vehicle profitable.

Don't give up on that engine yet!

Good to hear that the iDTEC plans haven`t been cancelled completely. Is Wayne able to confirm or deny whether the Insight II can drive on electric power only?

Jeeze where the heck have I been? Away for too long, I come back to check on the site and find out Wayne's playing with the Insight numero dos.

Mike, he can't speak to specifics until the 11th of January.

Mike, he can't speak to specifics until the 11th of January.

We're not asking him to speak to specifics, only to CleanMPG members:p

...oh that was bad, sorry:)

*Notes January 11th on the calendar...*

Can't wait to hear the full story on it.

Wayne is bound by a written agreement with American Honda.

IT WILL BE WORTH THE WAIT!!!

Wayne's perspective will be with the view of someone with the same interest as most members here at CleanMPG. He is guaranteed to be filled with the various nuances that the new Insight II is bound to contain.

I'm sure that anyone visiting CleanMPG on January 11 -January 13, 2009 will get several detailed perspectives of 1st hand reports of several new models released in Detroit on those days.

..

Though not directly related to the new Insight, he also had some new info that should be of interest here. There have been rumors that the new Honda diesel engine failed emissions testing and that's why it isn't being offered in the US. This is incorrect. The real reasons are that the precious metals used in the emissions system have increased drastically in price and the price differential between gas and diesel fuel is large enough here that it isn't economically feasible to bring it to market. The third point is that Honda still intends to bring it over (yes, still targeted for the Acura TSX) but is waiting for those prices to come back in line with what they project is needed to make the vehicle profitable.

Don't give up on that engine yet!


Interesting, but I still haven't read anything about Honda passing emissions certification either. I would bet that Honda has one system that's cheap enough to sell and a different system that's clean enough to pass the tests. There are other manufacturers in that particular boat. Still, it's encouraging that they're still working on it.

Since Wayne appears able to comment on the interior space, is he able to report on whether the I-II has the same Magic Seats in back as the Fit? Can he comment on the amount of cargo space?

He is bound by a "gag"order on any information.

Since Wayne appears able to comment on the interior space, is he able to report on whether the I-II has the same Magic Seats in back as the Fit? Can he comment on the amount of cargo space?

Knowing Honda, I'm sure the Insight II will be innovative.

Yeah, unfortunately anything with actual numbers or hard details can't be shared. The interior thing was a subjective feel when behind the wheel and that's as specific as he's allowed to get until the 11th.

Sorry!!! If it helps any, Wayne is just as anxious to share as you are to find out. :)

ILAveo, according to Wayne the diesel engine tech has in fact passed emissions testing. The key components that are so expensive are the very ones that are not on that iCDTi Wayne has driven a number of times -- which is not clean enough and therefore only in the country on a Manufacturer special permit.

At least the wait gives Wayne time to do a full write up. Although I guess he can't put it in the "draft" section you mods have access to.

Japanese Best Car magazine has published the rear view of the new Insight. It may not be a genuine photo, but having in mind the official photo of the production car released by Honda, it should be pretty close to the reality.

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/and-here-is-rear-view-of-new-honda.html

Hi Kosutasu:

___Yup ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A member from Vtec.net came across with a YouTube posting, which containts a few JDM brochure pics. There is also one of the Modulo version!!!

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-honda-insight-jdm-brochure-pics.html

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-honda-insight-jdm-brochure-pics_26.html

"Following the post "Honda Insight 2009: The key facts", which contains info that CAR magazine obtained, and the JDM brochure photos that were posted yesterday (part 1 + part 2), a Japanese magazine revealed information that came from a product preview meeting for Honda dealers in Japan."

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/unverified-2009-honda-insight.html

Hi Kosutasu:

___I can only say that some of the specs, a pic and trim levels are "off" from what we will receive here in the US.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A member from Vtec.net came across with PDF document from Honda Belgium that gives technical details, fuel consumption figures (for Europe),and equipment grades (for local market).

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/official-2009-honda-insight-information.html

A member from Vtec.net came across with PDF document from Honda Belgium that gives technical details, fuel consumption figures (for Europe),and equipment grades (for local market).

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/official-2009-honda-insight-information.html

OK, so that data converts to 51mpg urban/56mpg extra-urban on the European test cycle.

The HCH-II, according to the figures on that site, amount to 45mpg urban/54mpg extra-urban, while 2008 EPA for the HCH-II are 40 city/45 highway.

So would it be a safe guess to figure around 45C/47H for the Insight-II? I guess that's about what we've been hearing. That'll put it in Prius territory for the combined cycle.

Hi HCHCIN:

___Somewhat optimisitc at last report...

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A member from Vtec.net came across with PDF document from Honda Belgium that gives technical details, fuel consumption figures (for Europe),and equipment grades (for local market).

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/official-2009-honda-insight-information.html

From this document:

the ICE stops when you relax the accelerator and push the brakes.
the ICE starts again when you push the accelerator.


No other interesting information.

Denis.

Only a few days to go...I'm most curious about pricing.

Hi Jsmithy:

___Trust me, so are we ;)

___My parents are interested in the Prius-III and now the Insight-II now that they have had a chance to look at it in pics. It all depends on pricing of each.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

A member from Vtec.net came across with PDF document from Honda Belgium that gives technical details, fuel consumption figures (for Europe),and equipment grades (for local market).

http://japanesegreencars.blogspot.com/2008/12/official-2009-honda-insight-information.html

And I thought the little bit of French I learned due to being a fan of Alizée wouldn't come in handy. It was nice to read that and understand at least 90% of it. :cool:

A little news about the MPG from over the pond..

http://jalopnik.com/5126223/official-euro-honda-insight-hybrid-fuel-economy-numbers-leak-less-fuel+efficient-than-toyota-prius

But, like they said, estimates.. No real world numbers yet..

Hi Rich:

___They have the Euro Insight-II pics alright but there specs are a bit off. Honda should have a handle on the final EPA on the 11th but the ones in the link are not it.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

This one has really got my interest up.. I'm almost doing a count-down!

Only a few more days and Honda is going to blow our socks off!! :woot:

Hi Rich:

___I think they will surprise you but blowing your socks off, probably not. Remember this is an every-man's hybrid meant to grab the masses attention and wallets, not just those that can afford a $24,000 + automobile. Sacrifices had to be made but they were made in all the right places so as to give every one a well-equipped hybrid and its excellent FE for a hopefully great price.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Nice leak!

Even if the mpg isn't quite as good as projected here, I'll be satisified as long as it's somewhere between the HCH-II and the Prius.

More importantly (to me), it appears to have a very serviceable cargo area with rear seats that fold flat. The rear seat cushions appear thicker than the Fit's though, so maybe it doesn't have the "magic seats"? I was wondering if Honda might use the space under the seats for the battery pack, although at least part of the pack appears to be just behind the seatback hinges, in front of the sunken area in the cargo hold.

In any event, speculation can end when all is revealed on Monday!

"sunken area in the cargo hold." ??
I was wondering about that area.. If it's deep enough, that looks like a nice place to add-on
a layer of extra batteries. (With the extra bits in that little tool bin)..
I wonder how many Add-On shops are thinking the same thing? ;)

Something like this, but a couple inches thinner.?.
http://www.edmunds.com/media/advice/alternative.fuels/future.of.electric.vehicles/oem.tek.500.jpg

Hi All:

___The finalized specs were just E-Mailed to me a few minutes ago of which will be uploaded on Sunday morning but one I can tell you is the Insight-II is now a 2010 model, not a 2009.

___Rich, extra batteries are not really going to help improve the Insight-II’s FE and the under floor room available “might” be a little less than you may have thought.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

That picture at http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/2010hondainsightleak2/1005834684
makes it look around 3 to 4 inches deep back there.
That's about the same spot my picnic table is located in the CRV..
Don't ask me why Honda included a folding table with the CRV, I haven't a clue.
But the round bin under it might be a good place to widen out and add some batteries!! :D

I'll be sure to log on Sunday AM to see those 2010 specs!! :)

Oh ... I realize you can't answer this, but that last comment makes me wonder if maybe the I-II uses run-flat tires and no spare? Boy, I sure hope that's not the case.

I was wondering about the spare too. Maybe you just reach into the rear tool pit,
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/2010hondainsightleak2/1005834662
Grab that handle and yank the rip-cord, causing a spare tire to drop off the bottom of the car?

Notice those large plastic tabs on the forward edge of the depressed area?
They almost look like lock-down tabs for a FOLDING PICNIC TABLE!! LOL!! :p

(As in the CRV)!
http://www.fnferr.com/crv/images/IMG_0169.JPG

I've never seen one un-folded until I found this pic!!
Mine has been folded up for about 10 years.. I wonder if the legs have rusted away?? :rolleyes:

Hi Dan:

___The Insight-II uses a regular compact-spare vs. the can-o-flat some are using nowadays.

___Rich, PHEV like extra batteries willl not help improve anything in the IMA based systems.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

It's good to know we are getting a real tire, since it was leaked that the JDM version was going to have a repair kit!!

http://www.autoincar.com/specification-leaked-2009-2010-honda-insight-jdm-version/

"flat-tire repair kit (the new Insight carries no spare tire)"

Hi All:

___The finalized specs were just E-Mailed to me a few minutes ago of which will be uploaded on Sunday morning ...

What time / timezone Sunday morning?

Or will it be a surprise in order to prevent us from ganging up and crashing your server?

-- Dean, almost ready to retire an old Honda

Hi All:

___The finalized specs were just E-Mailed to me a few minutes ago of which will be uploaded on Sunday morning but one I can tell you is the Insight-II is now a 2010 model, not a 2009.

___Rich, extra batteries are not really going to help improve the Insight-II’s FE and the under floor room available “might” be a little less than you may have thought.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'll be tuning in first thing Sunday. Is pricing part of the specs you received?

Real spare? Yay!

Personally, I'd love a fold-out picnic table built into my car. I'd use it a number of times a year on camping trips away from developed campgrounds.

Hi Dean and Jsmithy:

___09:00 AM EST. Pricing is unfortunately an item we did not receive yet and I suspect we may not see it by Sunday morning either :(

___Please keep your expectations to a level of “A hybrid for everyone” instead of this is the greatest thing since the automobile and you will understand its intended purpose.

___Sean and I discussed some of the leaked Euro pics and their build is different than what we are going to receive here in the US when it comes to the rear hatch layout and cap. Quite different actually.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

How did legroom/headroom in the driver's seat and in the back compare to HCH-II?

Hi KJStaz:

___I wish I could help you with that one but you are going to have to wait or find it elsewhere. I have a great working relationship with Honda and I would jeopardize that standing if I give to much detail per the NDA before the Insight-II's embargo date has passed.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

___Rich, PHEV like extra batteries willl not help improve anything in the IMA based systems.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Have to disagree... ;)

You offset / replace some gasoline usage with electrical usage.

x amount of power ( HP if you like ) is needed to move the vehicle. Shifting more to electrical and away from gasoline is a good thing. Especially if you can then get that electricity from a RE source.

The first step of PHEV IMA improvement is just by the removal / reduction of the needed ICE alternator function... this reduces the amount of gasoline you use per mile just my having to spend less of it to power your electrical systems... which add up pretty quickly.

The Second step is PHEV IMA systems allow for the assist without the MPG / ICE hit in order to recover the electrical energy.

The Third is by using additional assist you keep the ICE / gasoline usage to a minimum... getting the system to give you additional assist have been worked out for the Insight-I... I haven't heard about any of the other IMA owners diving into that technical challenge yet.

Have you seen the UK Insight with ~6kWh of Li batteries and a MIMA system to give extra assist when he wants it?

There is also Mike D's I think ~3kWh Lead Acid system.

And at least 3 or 4 people I have read about who have set up additional battery capacity... they have all seen MPG improvements.

could it be better... of course there is always room for improvement... one of my favorites would be for a clutch to be added between the IMA and the ICE. :D

Hi Iamian:

___And none has achieved what the non-modded Insight's have achieved... The extra weight is the killer as the std. Insight is so efficient when not using its electrical output already, it would be a mistake to drag an engine along with the larger pack.

___Unless it’s a total EV conversion, additional packs have proven themselves to be a waste of time, effort, energy and cost in the real world.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi iamian;

I'll have to agree with Wayne on this one and I would be very surprised if a commercially available retrofit for IMA systems was ever produced. Barring a significant mechanical change to the car, most engineers I know would certainly balk at the idea.
While it would be technically possible and with some gains to be had for some, it would be a serious shame, waste of talent and a certain waste of money to do so at a grander scale solely on the account of the mechanical losses alone (however small those may be, even on the Gen 4's) :(


Cheers;

MSantos

If extra wt. is such a killer, why two passengers during the 48 St. world record? Did that hurt the HCH FE? I would have thought it would, but it did not appear too. These are 5 passenger cars! You could add a pack and restrict youself to 1 passenger only. Just a point!
Cheers, H

Hi Harold:

___About 1 to 2 mpg for each additional passenger in a small engine compact. Less of a hit on the highway and more around town.

___The reason for three on the 48-Contiguous state drive was more about rules and logistics as we gave up an mpg or two for it.

___IMA's problem wrt a PHEV is it drags the engine along with it and the IMA motor is just a tiny little guy.

___As a stand alone solution however, it is the second best overall solution we have available right now and if the price is right ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Yes and I think the trip must have been more enjoyable as well. Cheers, Hal

Well when I asked that I wasn't sure if that would breach the NDA or not to answer. I'm cool waiting, but I hope you have some statements about the interior room in your write-up when you release it, and I personally would megappreciate a comparison to the current-gen Civics' legroom/headroom. Thanks and I am very excited to read the write-up.

The review is up in the Reviews section. I'm throwing in a link in this thread in case anyone else checks here first.

CleanMPG Previews the 2010 Honda Insight-II (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18649)