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"The days where we can just drive where we want to drive and eat more than we have to, eat all we want; and keep our thermostats at 72 degrees; those days are over." - Barack Obama

"Drill here & drill now" - John McCain

Sounds like you are taking the Obama message to heart. Well done. ;)

Sorry I'm not voting for the hate America Communist/Socialist.

McCain says drill here drill now AND we implement alternative forms of energy and conservation including increased fuel mileage standards. He wants to do it all.

All Obama wants to do is flap his lips and raise energy taxes.
What is his energy plan? That's right he doesn't have one.
He said he'll put one together after he gets elected.

What was it he said? I wanted energy prices to go up, just not this fast.
Yep he really cares about the little guy trying to survive on a paycheck.





Mod-cap on: I've split the threads. The political-related stuff is now here and the oil prices are still where they belong.

I'm going to try to keep this as non-partisan as possible, but...

Can any Obama supporter out there name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write?

Hi Auston:

___Can you tell us what McCain has done while in the Senate for 20 + years? I can tell you. Deficits are up by 1,000 %, we are more addicted to oil today than at any point in history and we are now bailing out the Billionaires that placed McCain in office to begin with. That is one heck of a record! How about you write your $3,000 check to one of Paulson's Billionaire buddies tonight to cover the Bailout? Oh screw that. Let us run it at 4% + over the next 100 + years :rolleyes:

___Has anyone tracked down his camping contributors and advisors on the economy?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm going to try to keep this as non-partisan as possible, but...

Can any Obama supporter out there name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write?

I know this is not a political forum... but I can only bite my touge for so long...

His bold legislative work on the Illinois Death Penalty, and how he made a difference between life and death:
http://www.icadp.org/page236.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/12/obama.death.pena... /

His sponsorship of a bill that brought health insurance to 150,000, including 70,000 uninsured Children, again, during his time serving in the Illinois Statehouse:
http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/14/f...
http://mediamatters.org/items/200712170003

His work on both the Immigration bill during his time in the US senate and his sponsorship of Ethics legislation (something he did both while in the State House, and in the Senate) that called for some of the most impactful reform regarding lobbyists since Watergate (as he likes to term it):
http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/14/f...
http://feingold.senate.gov/~feingold/releases/07/01/200...

but its pointless to argue with you, you have made up your mind already, as many. So do your own research, don't take my word... just look it up, not just listen to Rush, Hanity, or even Ed Shultz. Just do some research.

Hi Auston:

___Can you tell us what McCain has done while in the Senate for 20 + years? I can tell you. Deficits are up by 1,000 %, we are more addicted to oil today than at any point in history and we are now bailing out the Billionaires that placed McCain in office to begin with. That is one heck of a record! How about you write your $3,000 check to one of Paulson's Billionaire buddies tonight to cover the Bailout? Oh screw that. Let us run it at 4% + over the next 100 + years :rolleyes:

___Has anyone tracked down his camping contributors and advisors on the economy?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne--

You're acting as if first off I support McCain, which I don't at all. Fifteen minutes of discussion at CincyMPG and you'll see me in an "anyone but McCain" argument with someone else. He's authored bad bill after bad bill. McCain-Feingold, McCain-Lieberman, McCain-Kennedy, McCain-whatever. However I do know he predicted this would happen to the financial's some three years and sponsored a bill to reform Fannie and Freddie before this happened. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details but as far as I know no such reform ever passed?

Since 1989, Barack Obama has received more in campaign contributions than all but two other members of Congress. And he's only been in there three years.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/07/top-senate-recipients-of-fanni.html



His work on both the Immigration bill during his time in the US senate

The McCain-Kennedy amnesty bill? Great. Now I really have no horse in this race.














Guys, from here on out, let's stay on topic: the oil prices jumping. Wayne, Lord Biron or others, let's take this elsewhere.

All Obama wants to do is flap his lips and raise energy taxes.
What is his energy plan? That's right he doesn't have one.
He said he'll put one together after he gets elected.

Um, http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

Besides, there's only so much anyone can claim to be able to do without knowing how the voting records/popular mandates will work out, or the makeup of Congress, or any number of other factors, so just because he hasn't put forth the exact language of a bill doesn't mean that there's no plan.

Of course, it also doesn't mean that the plan will go in motion. I support Obama, for a number of reasons, but I'm also going to do whatever I can to ensure that he sticks to his promises should he get into office.

Can any Obama supporter out there name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write?

He's served on a boatload of important Senate committees.

http://obama.senate.gov/committees/

He's served on a boatload of important Senate committees.

http://obama.senate.gov/committees/

From the same website I got this:

http://obama.senate.gov/votes/

"Not voting, not voting, not voting..."

Sorry I'm not voting for the hate America Communist/Socialist.

McCain says drill here drill now AND we implement alternative forms of energy and conservation including increased fuel mileage standards. He wants to do it all.

All Obama wants to do is flap his lips and raise energy taxes.
What is his energy plan? That's right he doesn't have one.
He said he'll put one together after he gets elected.

What was it he said? I wanted energy prices to go up, just not this fast.
Yep he really cares about the little guy trying to survive on a paycheck.

Yes, I am guilty of injecting "politics" in this thread. I throw myself at the mercy of the thread. ;)

What I found interesting was your wise observation that we all have the ability to reduce our impact instead of looking for an easy scapegoat, and if others would walk the walk like you have (and like me too :) ), we would go a long way towards mitigating the energy crunch to come.

But the problem is our leaders right? They never level with us. They always blame someone else, tell us we can have our cake and eat it too, avoid sacrifice. Always true huh? And we rightly criticize them for that.

But not Obama. Not here. In his statement I quoted earlier, the man is telling us that the problem is all of us, and that we have to change our ways........everybody........if we are to overcome this. No more inefficient motoring, home powering, and diet.

That's courage. You don't win points for that kind of honesty in the political arena.

There's a great diversity of political opinion in this forum, and that's a good thing. I expect conservatives to vote for McCain, just as I expect liberals to vote for Obama.

But I do expect conservatives to grudgingly respect Obama for his statement, and others like it. The man is giving us our medicine. His prescription may not be the way you want to go, but all the other doctors are telling us that we really aren't sick.

Hi mparrish--

If we're talking in terms of doctors then Obama is a quack :( and I'm not even a McCain supporter by a long shot.

I don't think the problem is consumption but rather the need to increase supply. Why should we reduce our consumption? Even if we do, someone else will consume it.

I don't see why we can't drill here and drill now. That will buy us a few years of time before Peak Oil hits. During that time we bring Phev's online powered by alternative energy sources. That includes clean energy such as wind, solar, and nuclear power.

If ten or twenty years from now we can make hydrogen fusion practrical and affordable then it would touch off a new renaissance as energy becomes cheaper than we could ever possibly imagine today. :)

From the same website I got this:

http://obama.senate.gov/votes/

"Not voting, not voting, not voting..."

And if you looked forward a few pages you'd find plenty of votes. Not bad for a guy who's been running a major campaign for about a year and trying to convince people around the country to elect him to the highest office in the land.

Admittedly, it is rather state of affairs that a major campaign has to impede so much on this, but with extended primary and campaign seasons, a grueling 24-hour news cycle (focusing intently on the here-and-now), so many events to attend and so much to do with running any major campaign, it's easy to see how one can miss so many votes.

Of course, when you look at the vote statistics for other presidential candidates from early in the campaign (Chris Dodd has a surprisingly high miss rate) or non-presidential-election Congress's (In '05-'06, 9% missed was the highest, Obama was under 2%), he's actually doing very well. Also, when you compare it to previous presidential election cycles, he's doing quite well. In 2004, Kerry and Edwards missed 72.3% and 45.2% respectively. In a shorter campaign in 2000 (in which he didn't win the nomination), McCain missed 29.5%. Very telling, though are the statistics from 1992 and 1996, which had much lower rates of missed votes, even among the Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates (Gore in '92 and Dole in '96). Perhaps you should ask yourself what has changed from then 'til now (24-hour news, the internet revolution, longer campaigns, probably a few other things).

The situation is a little more complicated than a glib dismissal of "see, no votes." And if you'd like to do some more research, you can always go to http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/ as I did.

Ok, you got me on that one.

OOOO Boy,,, :)

I will not vote for Obama. So you know where I stand on that one.

I do not support the bailout at all. Emails have been written and phone calls made concerning it. No support here for the fools that got this mess going or the idiots that bought homes on the liar loans and so fourth and so on.

Energy,,,, I support the turbines, solar, nukes and drilling. I do not support the natural gas idea. We have to work with what we got and that is oil and coal. And we have more of it than folks think we have. That does not mean we need to use it all up. But it does have to be tapped while the other tech is brought on line. We have to figure out away to balance it all out and make the change.

Taxes will have to go up. I don't like it. But the number xcel posted has to be dealt with period! things are going to get worse before they get better.

So name why you are not voting for him?

And please, no talking points form corporate right radio, and no talking points from the 24/7 corperate Media.
Tell me why?

How is McCain better?

Win me.

-Thanks in advance :)

:flag:

But for anyone curious in how this whole system is going down, I like this website, just to get it out there

www.electoral-vote.com

If Obama wins, the country is finished.

(This should stir the pot some.)

edit: Unfortunately if McCain wins its finished also.

I don't envy whoever is the 44th President.

Read this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26854154/)

If they get us out of our current mess, he deserves to be added to Mt Rushmore.

I deleted a newbie's first-time post as it had all the appearances of a firebomb.

Expressing one's politics is one thing, but attempting to gratutiously injecting race, religion, etc was deemed inappropiate.

...attempting to gratutiously injecting race, religion, etc was deemed inappropiate.

I'm surprised it took that long before someone played the card.


Regarding your link in the prior post, as soon as I saw it went to msnbc I ignored it. I think I'll probably not read anymore in this thread, either. :flag:
I do have to say though that of all the places I've read political dialogue online, this site is the most thoughtful and least superficial of all.

Why the politics thread? This is going to need alot of moderator attention.

If you ask me, Senators don't "do" things--that's an executive branch function;).

Lets contrast the life histories of the major candidates to see what they've done:

Obama raised himself up from food stamps to an Ivy League education, the US Senate and a strong shot at the Presidency. Classic All-American, Jimmy Stewart success story. He even more or less gets along with both the Daley and Jackson machines in Chicago (could there be hope for peace in the Middle East?).

McCain is an Admiral's Son who gained fame by being shot out of an airplane and getting captured by the Vietnamese, later became an heiress' trophy husband, became a Senator with a safe seat, gained fame in the 80's banking crisis by strenuously helping fraudster Charles Keating, spearheaded banking deregulation and has, after flip flopping many positions in order to win the Republican nomination, a strong shot at the presidency.

To me it seems like Obama's done more things, but McCain's had more things happen to him. You can guess which I value more. Obama has the sort of biography that people say they like, but McCain has the biography that usually wins the election. Obama seems smart and smarts will be needed to deal with our bunch of problems and bankrupt treasury, but seeming smart doesn't win most elections.

And, sorry, I know it's not polite, but I don't think you can discuss this election honestly without mentioning race. Unfortunately, I work with several redneck guys who've told me in private that they are voting against Obama because he's black ("I don't think the country's ready for one of those" they say) and I expect that'll make enough difference to get McCain elected.

There are worse things than having Congress and the Presidency controlled by different parties--it can help keep crackpot ideas in check. The country will survive, but I can't help thinking it was a lot better off eight years ago.

Hi ILAveo--

Here's my general election analysis:

What you're talking about is the Bradley Effect where black candidates consistently perform better in polls than on the actual ballot. We even saw it this year in New Hampshire where Obama was supposed to win and Hillary pulls an upset, extending the campaign by months.

People won't admit to a pollster they are uncomfortable voting for a black guy. But when they're by themselves in the voting booth it's another story. This can easily cost Obama five points.

With regards to the "battleground" states I don't even know why he is trying to take Virginia or Indiana - he doesn't have a chance with the aforementioned effect in mind. Especially after his comments about people from small towns being poor and bitter and that's why they cling to their guns and religion.

If he wants to win he has to focus on states with large and recently growing cities, areas with more diverse population. He has a 2 to 1 advantage among Hispanics, he could take New Mexico, Colorado, and Nevada without too much trouble. Hold onto Michigan, PA and Minnesota (the former two will be a real challenge for him because he cannot gain traction among rural and blue-collar voters...as evidenced by his pisspoor performance during the primaries despite everyone knowing Hillary was going to lose...) and he can probably pull off a victory.

What amazes me is how onesided this race was going to be just two years ago. The Republican brand was ruined, its leaders had sold out their conservative principles, burned again and again on Iraq, the economy, gas prices, and the list goes on. If Hillary'd won there would be a fight from the Republicans, who might have not voted for McCain, but certainly against Hillary. And Obama, the new guy, if he'd won the nomination, would be a virtual shoe-in. Obama never capitalized on his advantages--having mobilized a donation base and a younger generation, as well as what was supposed to be a Democrat wipeout across the board.

He's worthless if he's not in front of a teleprompter. Compare any of his stump speeches to a town hall or one on one interview. Although the media largely favors him (I stomached reading the New York Times a couple weeks, and the coverage is usually 90% positive for Obama) there's scrutiny about his associations with Rezko, Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers, etc.

Then throw in Sarah Palin. Somehow the Repulicans come alive overnight, money pours in, and the campaign goes into high gear. McCain pulls ahead in the polls (I haven't checked the RCP averages lately but I remember McCain being up by two or three vs. down by five or more?).



For Obama to win: Attack McCain on the economy. McCain's been in Washington for a long time. I don't think either candidate has much of a case against the other with regards to the economy but he can probably get a few points because McCain has (R) next to his name just like Dubya. Make solid positions on foreign policy that show clear and decisive leadership.

And dump Joe Biden from the ticket. He was a strategic choice to counter McCain's repeated attacks on Obama's lack of experience but Delaware is a solidly Democrat state anyway and it's only a matter of time before he makes some off-color gaffe that costs Obama five points.

To win, Obama has to put himself as a moderate: this country is a center-right country, and every Democrat who put himself as a leftie has lost. Even Jimmy Carter who many call a socialist or otherwise a complete failure ran for office as a moderate. Bill Clinton ran as a moderate.

I'm trying to think of a reliable counter to Sarah Palin, though. If Obama wastes all his time attacking her, then McCain gets a free ride. If he ignores her, she will eat him alive. Anybody know of a good vp who could counter her?



For McCain to win: Attack Obama on experience and foreign policy. Obama has no experience. Period. I don't know where the recent attack ads have come from but he doesn't need them. Chew Obama up in the first debate and spit him out. Remind the people that however nice it may be to have shiny cars and a fancy education system, it isn't worth much when the tinpot regime next door decides to invade. Or something like that.

So name why you are not voting for him?

And please, no talking points form corporate right radio, and no talking points from the 24/7 corperate Media.
Tell me why?

How is McCain better?

Win me.

-Thanks in advance :)

:flag:

But for anyone curious in how this whole system is going down, I like this website, just to get it out there

www.electoral-vote.com

In a word Ayers. I remember that trash from my childhood.

Then you throw in Obama's voting record on the hill. Nothing there I believe in. Obama has fliped more in the race than Sarah has panties to change.

In the end for me it comes down to party. And even that is thin. At its core I prefer the reps. But they have got so conservative it stinks. And the libs have went so far left I feel awful anymore living in my all democrat city and county.

Over all its a cluster.

@psyshack

If you have a problem with flipping then you probably shouldn't vote for anybody, as both sides have flipped so many times, that they could have made the bejing olympics team. McCain used to be the opposite of bush on many issues, but completly sold himself out yet again, just to get the nomination. He is so close to what Bush was in 2000, he could almost be his twin, and borrows heavily from all his speeches as does Sarah.

I'm not voting for either 1, i'm going to do a write in for someone who is worthy of a vote, who hasn't played this party line BS. Someone who has been unwavering on their message.

Honestly i'm so ticked off right now, at what my parents generation has done to this country, that I can't even hardly stand to look at anyone over the age of 50 without feeling complete hatred. Most of them are still milking it dry right now, riding on our backs into retirement, while we're left to swim in the sewer they're trying to leave behind, with barely enough money to buy food.

Explain how what they have done to the country?


Honestly i'm so ticked off right now, at what my parents generation has done to this country, that I can't even hardly stand to look at anyone over the age of 50 without feeling complete hatred. Most of them are still milking it dry right now, riding on our backs into retirement, while we're left to swim in the sewer they're trying to leave behind, with barely enough money to buy food.

You didn't really point out any issue that they have done?

Explain how what they have done to the country?

You didn't really point out any issue that they have done?

They had the opportunity to get more fuel-efficient cars and eventually get us off of gasoline and those foreign oil imports in 1973.

700 billion dollars for failed get rich schemes is what they have done. Golden parachutes is what they have done. No social security for the next generation is what they have done. As lamebums has said, they had opportunity in the 70s to do something. They had opportunity when the dotcom bubble burst at the end of the 90s to do something with all the money that was floating around. Instead they poured it into a giant pyramid scheme. Where the old rich folks at top get richer, and the poor young people get screwed once the rates change.

There is plenty more I can list, if I have to.

They basically ensured a large portion of their generation will be wealthy while the next generations supports them every day until they die off. Then they've taken away the next generations ability to do something even remotely similar.

Aveo, you left out one important aspect of McCain's life. While he was a tortured POW, he was given the chance to be set free but he turned down that chance for the sake of others. Being an Admiral's son does not get you through the training program to be a Navy fighter pilot. No matter what Daddy's rank is, that is a position that is earned. Something else, much of McCain's time in the senate is filled with yes or no votes. Much of Obama's time in state and federal legislature is filled with votes of "present". There is a group of Obama supporters who are former members of the Weather Underground. Now why would this group of people who hate America and sought to commit acts of bombing against this country want to support this man for president? Obama was also part of ACORN, a community organization group that is under investigation in several states for voter fraud thanks to fake voter registration.

Pat Buchanan's 88 Convention speech pretty much made up my mind what party I'm generally more comfortable with. "Drill baby Drill!" in 08 seconded that.

In a word Ayers. I remember that trash from my childhood.

Then you throw in Obama's voting record on the hill. Nothing there I believe in. Obama has fliped more in the race than Sarah has panties to change.

In the end for me it comes down to party. And even that is thin. At its core I prefer the reps. But they have got so conservative it stinks. And the libs have went so far left I feel awful anymore living in my all democrat city and county.

Over all its a cluster.

Bill Ayers? So you actually think they were real friends? I don't think so. Yes they were on the same board of a charity and yes Obama did attend a fund raising at his house...once but other than that they didn't see each other. Oh if you remember Ayers from your childhood you should also remember that the charges were DROPPED against him too or do you have just selected memory? kevin

Bill Ayers? So you actually think they were real friends? I don't think so. Yes they were on the same board of a charity and yes Obama did attend a fund raising at his house...once but other than that they didn't see each other. Oh if you remember Ayers from your childhood you should also remember that the charges were DROPPED against him too or do you have just selected memory? kevin

Obama's first campaign for public office was run from Ayers' living room. Next question.

University of Chicago Newspaper (http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml)

William Ayers, dismissed by Barack Obama as a "guy in my neighborhood", was sought out as a speaker on "juvenile justice" at a program apparently put together by Michelle Obama 11 years ago. Ayers was concerned about protecting juvenile "super predators" - who kill with no remorse.Bill Ayers? So you actually think they were real friends? I don't think so. Yes they were on the same board of a charity and yes Obama did attend a fund raising at his house...once but other than that they didn't see each other. Oh if you remember Ayers from your childhood you should also remember that the charges were DROPPED against him too or do you have just selected memory? kevin

Yes I do. with all the evidence pointing to this how could anyone not.

Yes they were on a board together called the Woods Fund of Chicago,it's been around since 1941! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woods_Fund_of_Chicago
He did not run his first campaign from his house, he donated 200.00. How much did Keating contribute to McCains fund!!! I think it was a little more than that, something like 112,000.00 oh well It's Swift Boat time again. kevin

Actually, the event at Bill Ayers' house was for Alice Palmer, who invited Barack Obama to the event. So the idea that "Obama's first campaign for public office was run from Ayers' living room" is, at best, a ludicrous stretch. And given how much effort so many have put in to associating Obama with Ayers, you'd think they'd actually find a link that was more than tangential.

This thread is a good example why Democrats so frequently lose. Look at all of the Obama supporters condemning Ayers and attempting to expose the tenuous links between Ayers & Obama. That's not how you play the game.

What if I told you that there was a guy who plotted to murder a journalist, firebomb a Washington building, & kidnap political opposition? What if I told you he was convicted of burglary, and acknowledged he was prepared to murder during that burglary if necessary?

Now what if I told you that he gave thousands to McCain's campaign, and that McCain recently appeared on his radio show?

The man is G. Gordon Liddy.

Now conservatives know how to handle this. They declare Liddy an American hero, fully embrace him, and announce that an attack on Liddy is an attack on conservatism itself. Well done indeed!

So that's what I'll do.

Ayers courageously used all available tactics at his disposal to end the needless slaughter of tens of thousands of US troops and millions of Vietnamese civilians, helping to end that huge mistake. He is a hero from bringing our involvement to an end sooner rather than later. We all embarce him like conservatives embrace Liddy.

Of course, I might not REALLY believe that. ;) But I can see how it is so effective for the right.

It's not just Ayers.

It's Jeremiah Wright, Farrakhan, Pfleger (spelling?), and Rezko.

It's his comments to left wing kooks in San Fran how people in small towns are bitter and poor and that's why they cling to their guns and religion.

It's his energy plan. "If everybody was just inflating their tires... then uh... we wouldn't have to drill for oil."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZNP4tTfV0
Tire inflation is common sense, not a long term energy plan.

It's how he would prefer gas prices to rise "more slowly" so there wouldn't be a shock. He wouldn't stop until we're all driving Yugo's while he parades around in his private jet and multiple Fsp Escalades/Suburbans/whatever official government vehicle he's rolling around in nowadays.

It's his desire to double the capital gains tax and raise taxes on small business.

It's his $1 Trillion per year in new spending on top of the already huge debt we have.
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif

It's his raising the white flag of surrender to the Hitler of Iran by legitimizing his regime by negotiation unconditionally with him.

It's his hard-left attitude towards social issues such as abortion, gay marriage, etc. (Actually he didn't have an answer with regards to abortion, saying it was above his pay grade. Way to go.)



Hitler gave great speeches, too, you know. Obama is just going to be Jimmy Carter's second term, with a bad economy at home and problems compounded by misguided economic policy via his tax increases. For all the people who say "the rich should pay more, it's their patriotic duty" (Joe Biden), answer me this simple question: do you get a job from a rich man or a poor man. That and he will be so weak on foreign policy that Iran, Venezuela, Russia, etc. will be on the march and we will do nothing about them. It frankly scares me.

But we had to go through four years of Carter to get to Reagan.

Here's a link and segments of an article on Bill Ayers and his friends in the Weather Underground.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODk2ZTRmZDIwNWEzOWE2MDNhMTQ0ZWYwYmRiNWZmNDM=
As noted in Ayers' Discover the Networks profile, the explosive had been a nail bomb. Back when Ayers was being more honest about his intentions, he admitted that the purpose of that bomb had been to murder United States soldiers:
That bomb had been intended for detonation at a dance that was to be attended by army soldiers at Fort Dix, New Jersey. Hundreds of lives could have been lost had the plan been successfully executed. Ayers attested that the bomb would have done serious damage, "tearing through windows and walls and, yes, people too."
In fact, Ayers was a founder of the Weatherman terror group and he defined its purpose as carrying out murder. Again, from Discover the Networks:
Characterizing Weatherman as "an American Red Army," Ayers summed up the organization's ideology as follows: "Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, Kill your parents."
Weatherman “War Council” meeting in 1969, Ayers' fellow terrorist and now-wife, Bernadine Dohrn, famously gushed over the barbaric Manson Family murders of the pregnant actress Sharon Tate, coffee heiress Abigail Folger, and three others: “Dig it! First they killed those pigs, then they ate dinner in the same room with them. They even shoved a fork into the victim’s stomach! Wild!” And as Jonah recalled yesterday, "In appreciation, her Weather Underground cell made a threefingered 'fork' gesture its official salute." They weren't talking about scratching up the wall-paper.
A Weatherman affiliate group which called itself "the Family" colluded with the Black Liberation Army in the 1981 Brinks robbery in which two police officers and an armed guard were murdered. (Obama would like people to believe all this terrorist activity ended in 1969 when he was eight years old. In fact, it continued well into the eighties.) Afterwards, like Ayers and Dohrn, their friend and fellow terrorist Susan Rosenberg became a fugitive.
On November 29, 1984, Rosenberg and a co-conspirator, Timothy Blunk, were finally apprehended in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. At the time, they were actively planning an unspeakable bombing campaign that would have put at risk the lives of countless innocent people. They also possessed twelve assorted guns (including an Uzi 9 mm. semi-automatic rifle and an Ithaca twelve-gauge shotgun with its barrel sawed off), nearly 200 sticks of dynamite, more than 100 sticks of DuPont Trovex (a high explosive), a wide array of blasting agents and caps, batteries, and switches for explosive devices. Arrayed in disguises and offering multiple false identities to arresting officers, the pair also maintained hundreds of false identification documents, including FBI and DEA badges.
When she was sentenced to 58 years' imprisonment in 1985, the only remorse Rosenberg expressed was over the fact that she and Blunk had allowed themselves to be captured rather than fighting it out with the police. Bernadine Dohrn was jailed for contempt when she refused to testify against Rosenberg. Not to worry, though. On his last day in office, the last Democrat president, Bill Clinton, pardoned Rosenberg — commuting her 58-year sentence to time-served.

And here I only thought New Orleans Democrats did this kind of stuff. http://www.nypost.com/seven/10062008/news/nationalnews/homeless_driven_to_vote_obama_132395.htm
When Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu first ran for the senate, the buses ran through the 9th ward to ferry many thousands of voters to the polls giving her the win in a contested election. Now in Ohio we have Obama supporters picking up homeless people and drving them to the polls to register to vote and vote for Obama. Nice. All that's missing is for the dead to make an appearance at the polls in Chicago and New Orleans on election day.

Auston, that is, quite honestly, just plain dumb.

1) Barack Obama has no connection to Louis Farrakhan and has denounced him repeatedly. (Also, you still haven't offered any substantive connection between Obama and Ayers.)

2) The media has investigated the Rezko deal and found nothing illegal or untoward. And if you want to play the "he's associated with X, Y, and Z" game, we can play that all day with McCain.

3) Obama's energy plan isn't inflating tires. He made that point to demonstrate how small changes in our personal responsibility ultimately save money for all of us. Go to his website and read his energy plan. (Also, it strikes me as strange that you're attacking Obama for that given your PSI=MPG mantra.)

4) What's more condescending: what Obama said at a single fundraiser in San Fransisco, or John McCain's choosing an unqualified woman, then keeping her away from any media scrutiny?

5) Obama doesn't want to raise taxes on small businesses. I'm curious where you get that information.

6) "The white flag of surrender?" When you're quoting Sarah Palin, that's a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about. Obama never said he wanted presidential-level meetings with dictators without preconditions, he argued for establishing diplomatic meetings on lower levels. That position is backed by five former Secretaries of State, three of whom are Republican. It's also what the Bush administration has finally begun doing.

7) "Hitler gave great speeches, too, you know." That's just patently dumb. You want to compare Hitler to Obama because they can both energize crowds. Is that really the best you can do?

Barack Obama has no connection to Louis Farrakhan and has denounced him repeatedly.

Farrakhan endorsed Obama for President. I think that alone shows the true political ideology of Obama, if it's enough to gain Farrakhan's support.


The media has investigated the Rezko deal and found nothing illegal or untoward. And if you want to play the "he's associated with X, Y, and Z" game, we can play that all day with McCain.

The media has no credibility. However he has not - yet - been acquitted in a court of law. We shall see. We can however say that John McCain was exonerated with regards to the Keating Five.


What's more condescending: what Obama said at a single fundraiser in San Fransisco, or John McCain's choosing an unqualified woman, then keeping her away from any media scrutiny?

Sarah Palin's resume is stronger than Barack Obama's! I don't know where you and everyone else get this baloney.

She's been a real mayor, Obama hasn't

She's been a real governor, Obama hasn't.

She was the commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard, Obama hasn't.

She took on an incumbent in the Republican primary and then defeated a Democratic challenger, Obama hasn't. Obama as a product of the Daley political machine got his opponents off the ballot on technicalities.

She took on her own state party chairman and got him fined $12,000 for ethics violations. Obama hasn't done anything of the sort.

I can't name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write. He's spent three years in the Senate, two of which campaigning for the presidency.

Obama doesn't want to raise taxes on small businesses. I'm curious where you get that information.

From his numerous quotes he wants to raise taxes on anyone making over $250,000. That includes a lot of small businesses.


"The white flag of surrender?" When you're quoting Sarah Palin, that's a sure sign you don't know what you're talking about. Obama never said he wanted presidential-level meetings with dictators without preconditions, he argued for establishing diplomatic meetings on lower levels. That position is backed by five former Secretaries of State, three of whom are Republican. It's also what the Bush administration has finally begun doing.

I don't know if Palin said that but it's true. Obama said he would sit down personally with the Hitler of Iran. And with regards to the five secretaries of state, they support lower-level negoations, including Henry Kissinger. But not the President personally.

Now we have evidence that Obama was a member of what was, at best, a socialist organization (or at worse a communist organization) from 1995 until 1999 when the organization ended. Below are several links which list Obama as a member of this Chicago socialist organization which come from socialist publications.
http://www.populist.com/11.96.Edit.html
http://www.chicagodsa.org/ngarchive/ng47.html
http://www.chicagodsa.org/ngarchive/ng42.html#anchor792932
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/10/08/will-msm-report-obama-membership-socialist-new-party

Farrakhan endorsed Obama for President. I think that alone shows the true political ideology of Obama, if it's enough to gain Farrakhan's support.

Really? As I mentioned, we can play the associations game all day long. That would mean John McCain agrees with John Hagee, whose support McCain sought. Hagee spouts all kinds of hatred and nonsense. Besides, you don't think Farrakhan's support--which Obama never sought out and whose ideas Obama has denounced--has anything to do with the simple fact that Obama is black? That's a much simpler, and more clearly documented, reason.




"The media has no credibility. However he has not - yet - been acquitted in a court of law. We shall see. We can however say that John McCain was exonerated with regards to the Keating Five."

Two points:

1. By "the media," I'm including all the conservative and right-wing groups that have investigated Obama's relationship to Ayers and found nothing of substance. (And, for what it's worth, I haven't met an Obama supporter yet who agrees with, likes or supports Ayers. Personally, I don't know why he's not in prison.)
2. Obama hasn't been investigated or charged with anything. Also, McCain's exoneration was questioned at the time by a lot of people, and other aspects of his relationship with Charles Keating weren't investigated. (You can read more about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_five#Glenn_and_McCain:_cleared_of_impropriety_but_criticized_for_poor_judgment).)



"Sarah Palin's resume is stronger than Barack Obama's! I don't know where you and everyone else get this baloney.

She's been a real mayor, Obama hasn't."

For that matter, neither has McCain. It's a strange claim. And there's this: when she began as mayor, she divested herself of many of her responsibilities and gave them to a city manager. (Link (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/09/17/palin_mayor/).)

Also, when she began her tenure as mayor of Wasilla, the city had no debt. When she left, she left the city with over $20 million in debt and a protracted court battle over a public works project.

"She's been a real governor, Obama hasn't."

Again, this seems a strange argument. McCain also has never been a governor. Also, her record as governor is incredibly brief--less than two years--and has been mixed. Her state still takes many times more earmarks than any other state in the country despite having a relatively small population, and she has consistently lied about her record.

"She was the commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard, Obama hasn't."

No, Obama's never been the commander-in-chief of the Alaska National Guard. And tell me, can you list three specific things Palin did as commander-in-chief of the Alaska National Guard?

"She took on her own state party chairman and got him fined $12,000 for ethics violations. Obama hasn't done anything of the sort."

I won't question Palin's work on ethics as governor. It's commendable. But to claim Obama has done nothing of the sort is simply willful ignorance. He co-sponsored a major Senate ethics reform bill with Senator Tom Coburn, an Oklahoma Republican, and he took on some of the Senate's most powerful Democrats in passing that legislation. (Link (http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/10/taking-on-his-p.html).)

"I can't name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write. He's spent three years in the Senate, two of which campaigning for the presidency."

You can't name anything Obama has done because, for whatever reason, you decided early on that you didn't like him and haven't looked into what he's done. So, in reverse chronological order:

1. In the U.S. Senate, Obama co-sponsored the Lugar-Obama initiative (http://obama.senate.gov/press/070111-lugar-obama_non/) to secure loose nuclear devices. (Lugar is a republican.) He created a publicly searchable database (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.2590.es:) of federal grants and contracts and where they go. Obama passed a law preventing antidemocratic no-bid contracts (http://obama.senate.gov/press/060929-congress_to_pas/) in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. (That strikes me as anti-socialist, for what that's worth.) Obama passed an amendment requiring evacuation plans (http://obama.senate.gov/press/050922-obama_amendment/), an amendment that proved productive in this year's hurricane season. Obama created the National Emergency Family Locator system (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:s.1630:) to help families reconnect after emergency evacuations.

That's only a partial list of his accomplishments in the United States Senate. I hope you'll note the willingness to work with Republicans and, when necessary, against Democrats.

2. In seven years as an Illinois legislator, Obama worked for bipartisan reform (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/09/23/in_illinois_obama_dealt_with_lobbyists/) on health care and ethics, expanded tax credits (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/us/politics/30obama.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) for low-income families, and worked with the Republican governor (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/65214450.html?dids=65214450:65214450&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT) to take on predatory lending and mortgage practices. (This last one seems particularly relevant to me at the moment.)

3. Obama worked as a civil-rights lawyer for eight years, and before that he taught constitutional law for four years at the University of Chicago. Given how little regard the Bush administration has for the constitution, an expert on constitutional law seems important.

Again, this is a partial list. So that's eleven years in the Senate with a record of bipartisan work and ethics reform. And that's supposed to be nothing compared to Sarah Palin's record?



"From his numerous quotes he wants to raise taxes on anyone making over $250,000. That includes a lot of small businesses."

Obama's plan ends the capital-gains tax on small businesses, and roughly eighty percent of small businesses would see a tax cut, not a tax increase, from Obama's plan.

"I don't know if Palin said that but it's true. Obama said he would sit down personally with the Hitler of Iran. And with regards to the five secretaries of state, they support lower-level negoations, including Henry Kissinger. But not the President personally."

Show me the quote where Obama advocates sitting down with dictators without preconditions.

"Frankly, I consider Obama to be just as dangerous to America as Hitler."

Wow. Really? We must be thinking of different Hitlers. Give me even one example of how Obama would be "just as dangerous to America as Hitler." Just one. (Of course, it would take more than one superficial comparison point, but I'd be surprised if you could find one specific example.)

Hi Auston:

___As soon as the "Obama compared to Hitler" card was exposed, that was enough. No more posts into the politico threads until you cool off.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Auston:

___As soon as the "Obama compared to Hitler" card was exposed, that was enough. No more posts into the politico threads until you cool off.

___Good Luck

___WayneAgreed

I'll add such firebombs in this and similar threads was the reason for Your Take on Recent Political Threads (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=16657)

Here's the main reason why one should not invoke the Hitler card ;). It's a loser.

http://psy.otago.ac.nz/r_oshea/WFP/WFP2e/argument.html

Farrakhan endorsed Obama for President. I think that alone shows the true political ideology of Obama, if it's enough to gain Farrakhan's support.



I'm sure many bad people have endorsed each candidate--guilt by unchosen association is arguably the dumbest argument you can make.


The media has no credibility. However he has not - yet - been acquitted in a court of law. We shall see. We can however say that John McCain was exonerated with regards to the Keating Five.


Depends on whether you consider "found to have exercised bad judgement" by an ethics committee led by of all people, Palin Pal, the indicted Ted Stevens an exoneration. A track record of making foolish and naive decisions is not what I would look for in someone I'm hiring for a decision making position. Many people at the time viewed the "exoneration" as a sort of prisoner exchange for Democrat John Glenn who was involved in the same scandal.



Sarah Palin's resume is stronger than Barack Obama's! I don't know where you and everyone else get this baloney.

She's been a real mayor, Obama hasn't


You mean where she fired the town's librarian for refusing to ban children's books that Palin hadn't even read.


She's been a real governor, Obama hasn't.


You mean where she fired a guy for refusing to fire a guy who had a dispute with her sister-in-law.


She was the commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard, Obama hasn't.


I'm sure that makes her one of the great military minds of our time:rolleyes:.



...... Obama as a product of the Daley political machine got his opponents off the ballot on technicalities


Sounds like you're admitting Obama is smart, but you don't like people who benefit from knowing the rules.


She took on her own state party chairman and got him fined $12,000 for ethics violations. Obama hasn't done anything of the sort.


I'll give her credit for guts, but there is much evidence that she is a "ready, fire, aim" sort of leader. If you dig around about her record you can find a number of instances where she followed the council of, or appointed uninformed cronies rather than seeking or following expert advice. We've already had too much of that--ask Colin Powell.



I can't name a single thing Obama has done except talk and write. He's spent three years in the Senate, two of which campaigning for the presidency.


It turns out that a president's job doesn't involve much hunting or fighter piloting:p. Most of a president's responsibilities involves laws--you know signing/vetoing them , enforcing them, protecting the constitution--that sort of stuff. Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review, which is to law students sort of what the Heisman Trophy is to football players--it means a bunch of really smart legal people thought he was really smart and understood the law very well. Nothing against knowing how to field dress a moose, but credentials that show you are smart and know the law seem a lot more relevant to the position we are seeking to fill.

BTW I guess you don't count achieving the American Dream by working your way up from poverty as an accomplishment :eyebrow: .






.....
I don't know if Palin said that but it's true. Obama said he would sit down personally with the Hitler of Iran. And with regards to the five secretaries of state, they support lower-level negoations, including Henry Kissinger. But not the President personally.

I'm not quite sure you know what you're trying to say here, but anybody with sense knows that it's important to talk to your enemies. Republican foreign policy heroes Reagan and Nixon did a lot of it with the Soviets and China. Historical parallels between 30's Germany and current Iran aren't strong, so I think you're pretty confused about the issue--some ancient Persian analogy probably would be more apt. GW Bush usually wasn't effective when talking to foreigners. You'd expect that someone better at talking would have better foreign policy success.

Frankly, I think that McCain's service in the Senate has for the most part been honorable and followed his conscience, which makes his recent sell outs to the GOP right wing that much more lamentable. I hope he will return to the Senate to continue his service there. IMO Obama/Biden is the better choice at this time for a number of reasons, but most importantly because I don't think Palin is qualified because she doesn't appear ready to lead subordinates whose opinions differ from hers.

In my opinion both of our choices are an upgrade over the candidates in 2000 and 2004. Good thing too, because we're in a tougher spot.

Here's the main reason why one should not invoke the Hitler card ;). It's a loser.

http://psy.otago.ac.nz/r_oshea/WFP/WFP2e/argument.html This is known as Godwin's Law - if a discussion goes to an arguement, it's a matter of time before someone lacking a good comback invokes Hitler. In some cases, comparisons to bin Laden, Communists or Nazis is effectively the same thing.

If someone gets that intense here, I hope they step back and examine why they went that far. ;)