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"If they wait until the end of 2010, they're going to meet competition." (http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080918/BUSINESS01/809180398/1014)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2011_Chevrolet_Volt_Drivers_Side_Rear1.jpgKatie Merx – Detroit Free Press – Sept. 18, 2008

2011 Chevrolet Volt

With the Prius-III coming in at maybe $24 to $25K, the Volt will have to perform miracles if GM believes it is worth $35K. -- Ed.

The average U.S. driver of a Chevrolet Volt is expected to save $1,500 to $2,000 a year on fuel, compared with today's compact cars and about $1,000 a year compared with a Toyota Prius hybrid.

But the debate continues over how much consumers will pay to get the fuel savings.

If the batteries being tested measure up, General Motors Corp. expects to launch the Volt in November 2010, with a propulsion system that can drive 40 miles on an electric charge alone before using an onboard gas-burning generator to power its electric motor for several hundred more miles.

GM heralds the Volt as the vehicle that will change the auto industry. While the vehicle has the potential to save the average U.S. driver a significant sum annually, some say sales will be constricted by the vehicle's price or by new competition… http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080918/BUSINESS01/809180398/1014

1) ... and price/value is why no one has yet produced a successful EV...
2) ... and why honda is introducing diesels in a fatter-for-2009 $35k TSX
3) ... and Prius is apples and oranges comparison to a PHEV. It has a AA penlight battery compared to a auto battery.
4) ... and Prius cost $26k now and can be made modified PHEV for $11,000 more.

All the manufacturers missed the shift and it will take 2 years for any of them to begin to meet it effectively.

The question of cost ROI for any efficiency technology always comes up... the thing that bugs me about this is the fact that ROI is not always the most important thing.

For example, there is a sizable percentage of the population willing to spring for a vehicle costing roughly $35K -- all you have to do is look at what travels our roads to see that. If they are going to spend that much money anyway, why shouldn't they consider something like the Volt? Likewise, a big issue for me is the volatility of fuel prices and availability. Like Wayne, I'm deeply concerned by the fact that so much of our infrastructure is so dependent upon a remote and hostile source of energy. To me, the value of severely reducing oil dependence is far greater than a simple cost savings model would indicate.

The true future value of the Volt isn't currently known. That knowledge depends heavily upon what happens in the future of oil production and trading/availability. Personally, I value the peace of mind associated with leaving that behind enough that if the vehicle performs as advertised, I will buy it (or something else with similar promise) if I can manage to afford it.

Until the rest of the population wakes up to this simple fact and begins to act in our best interest rather than looking for cost savings in the short term, we will continue to be stuck and vehicles like the Volt will continue to face an uphill battle of acceptance and adoption.

Where's the cost/benefit analysis of buying an Escalade? How long will it take for the fuel savings to offset the higher purchase price? Oh, yeah. They're both worse, so it's only going farther and farther downhill. Nobody seems to complain about that, though.

Volt - I would love to purchase the Volt if it delivers all that is promised (40 EV miles in real word driving) but recently GM has hinted the price may approach $40k.

Prius - The 2009 Prius is getting a little long in the tooth and if I were set on a Prius I would wait for the third generation model arriving in 2010.

Insight - If I had to purchase one of these 3 in 2009 the Insight would probably get my garage space. Honda has reported the starting MSRP will be below $19k and with average MPG around 60 it would take alot of cheap EV miles in the Volt to make up the almost $20,000 difference.

Also, one must strongly consider reliability. Both the Prius and Insight have proven technology and years of real world development where the Volt has only the EV1 to look back on.

My vote would go to the Insight.

Ditto,
All I can say is Thunderbird. It lasted 3 years because to the average buyer it was not worth $40K. The same with the Volt. Maybe if you could pull 75 to 100 miles per charge it would easily pay for itself at $40K. But 40 MPC? Not worth the premium with offerings from Toyota, and Honda. In two or three years add BMW to that list with the electric and Hybrid Mini. And you can bet there will be many more coming on line over the next five years.

Maybe the Volt will appreciate in residual value ;)

Otherwise, its difficult to justify $40k initial purchase when HCH, Prius and other fuel efficient 4 bangers dont even cost that after 5 years of operation (purch price + oper costs/insur. - resid value).

I'd buy the Honda hybrid over the GM car any day. You are basically guaranteed that the Honda will have a better warranty and last longer. Wait, it's cheaper too?

For me the Prius III makes some sense:
I need the larger cargo capacity since it would replace a Tacoma.
A good portion of my driving is city where the Prius full hybrid shines.
Higher speed glide than Prius II for highway jaunts.
But I may wait for a PHEV, since the electric range will more than cover my commute.


Insight worth a look though, at the lower price.

Volt has to be price competitive since the extra electric range is not as crucial for my driving patterns.

This argument only makes sense for people who are buying vehicles for economical transportation only. Since most people in North America buy for reasons of status etc a $40k car isn't much of a splurge.

We bought for economical transportation, that's why we didn't buy a hybrid. I would like to thank the early adapters who play an important role in lowering the cost of manufacturing on new products so that new, expensive technology can because cheap mainstream technology which makes sense for people who choose to or are forced to be economical in their choice of vehicle.

Imho, you're now going to see some hybrid owners put in the same position as some Yaris/Fit owners are in now(Yaris vs Prius) when they bash the excessive cost of owning an EV.

Does anyone know how big the gas tank is? That seems to be the missing variable in all of the discussions. I know that it will go 40 miles without gas, and it is said to have a 300 mile range WITH gas. However, if that's based on a 10 gallon tank (a guess) that would be only about 34mpg ((40+300)/10)....

A "normal' person pays about 10-13 cents per mile to fuel a Prius(40 mpg $4 gallon or $3 gallon). A Volt will be about 3-4 cents per mile( 12 cents KWHr- 250 watt hr/mile). Save about $10,000 over 100,000 miles.

GM had better freakin' forget about any $45000 MSRP. They better get a $6000 TC and they had better set the MSRP at $36,000 or less initially.

This drop in gasoline prices might last a couple of years, but it certainly won't last forever. Once the world economies pickup , oil will start back up. Oil will go higher than $148 during the next run up because we-USA etc- will be better able to cope with high fuel prices; we are driving more efficient cars, driving more slowly ,conserving more in our houses, businesses etc. We will probably be able to tolerate $200 oil and $7 gasoline in 4-5 years. Many big vehicles-Suburbans etc wil be off the roads,and far fewer will be sold.

Oh well, GM had better play this smart. I don't see why they can't sell the Volt for $30000 or less. WG has "priced it" many times using a Cobalt priced chassis($13000-$14000),and allowing $16000 for the battery pk electric motor/generator . No freakin' way should a battery pack, electric motor, generator ICE cost more than $16000!!

We'll see.
Charlie
PS- Main problem is that the Prius is soooooo good- almost impossible to get less than 40 mpg in the heaviest city driving in a $22,000, 5 passenger comfortable car with reasonable carrying volume- TOOOOOO GOOD!

Kristian, right now the latest data is that the tank is around 7g and the ICE/generator combo should be right around 50mpg in efficiency.

Kristian, right now the latest data is that the tank is around 7g and the ICE/generator combo should be right around 50mpg in efficiency.How they gonna un-junk the gas? If you drive around as an EV for 6 months, then get on the highway, any risk of using 6 month old gas. I know they've fixed this bug, I'd just be interested to know what the fix was.

Now as far as ROI, I totally agree. The Malibu is their ROI car just like the Yaris is the Toyota ROI car. The Prius and the Volt were never intended to be the cheapest car to own on a 3 year cycle, the fact that on some equations they are, are pure luck and not design.

We paid out the nose for a Prius and MMH but did it because I firmly belive in supporting Ford and Toyota's efforts to introduce innovation. I considered the Hybrid Premium a sort of an R&D grant from my family to the automakers to let them know that this technology had demand.

11011011

Dan- maybe that tiny tank- 7 gallons - is a built in "unjunk" the gas feature. It gives just a 300 mile range.

I would bet that GM will put some sort of "forced ICE use" feature in it. Maybe requiring you to use 1/2 gallon/wk or somthing like that to assure you don't end up with stale fuel.

Yes, FORCED ICE USE will drop FE. But, the same thing happens now with forced ICE to keep/bring the catcon up to temp. Cars also have high idles-forced- to bring the vehicle(ice only vehicles) and catcon up to temperature for EPA reasons.

Charlie

^ Agree with Voodoo from back a page.

People buy plenty of cars/trucks that have an unreasonable price tag for what they get. Most are buying brand image or prestige.

The Volt will come with instant prestige. It will sell very well, especially to those in the upper middle to upper income ranges. The people who really could use the car to save gas won't be able to afford it. But then who cares if everyone with the money is buying up Volt's.

How they gonna un-junk the gas? If you drive around as an EV for 6 months, then get on the highway, any risk of using 6 month old gas. I know they've fixed this bug, I'd just be interested to know what the fix was.

Here's a dumb question. I have gas sitting in a can at home. It's been there in there for six months. Does it need to be un-junked? If not, why not?

I guess I don't quite yet see the difference between a gas can in my garage and a "gas can tank" attached to my new Volt. :)

Hi Marc:

___After about three months, it is not as fresh. Gasoline begins to oxidize into a turpentine like chemistry immediately in fact :( After 6-months, it is not nearly as good as new. After a year, it is time not to use it for anything but "blowing $**t up" ;)

___There has to be a good link on the net about gasoline aging…

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Here's a dumb question. I have gas sitting in a can at home. It's been there in there for six months. Does it need to be un-junked? If not, why not?

I guess I don't quite yet see the difference between a gas can in my garage and a "gas can tank" attached to my new Volt. :)Gas gums up after a while. It's pretty common among boaters. Especially the northern kind. Add a little Sta-bil to the fuel and you should not have any problem.

___There has to be a good link on the net about gasoline aging…

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I can't vouch for the source one way or another, but take it for what it's worth you folks who are in my boat. :)

http://www.waynesgarage.com/docs/gasolineinfo.htm

"Yes, Gasoline does have an expiration date. When gasoline is stored, gums will form, the result of copper-catalyzed reactions of the hydrocarbons. Antioxidants and metal deactivators are added to slow this down, but after six months the fuel has degraded enough to be no longer good for use. Another problem with gasoline aging, is many of the performance and octane additives such as aromatic hydrocarbons evaporate and leave a fuel that delivers less performance than fresh fuel."

I was thinking just today of getting one of these anyway.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09/review-push-reel-mower-lawnmower-sunlawn-lmm-40.php

Either that or I'm not leaving 3 gallons in the can for mowing anymore.

Hi Marc:

___Nice work ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

300 mile range? Well 300 - 40 Electric only = 260 / 7 gallons = 37.14 miles per gallon on ICE. If you do the math it is no better than a Prius in highway mode.

Some how the more we look at this car the less it looks revolutionary.

Isn't the gumming up of the fuel related directly to what can evaporate out of it? And aren't the emissions controls with evap-recovery on a car designed to prevent just that sort of loss?

All I know is that I hit some of the best numbers I've ever seen in the Elantra at the tail end of the 6mo old gas on my last tank. I've not noticed any difference on this tank either -- same numbers.

ALS, the stated range is around 400mi total -- not 300.

400mi - 40mi = 360mi
360mi/7g = 51.4mpg

300 mile range? Well 300 - 40 Electric only = 260 / 7 gallons = 37.14 miles per gallon on ICE. If you do the math it is no better than a Prius in highway mode.

Some how the more we look at this car the less it looks revolutionary.The car isn't for folks driving 300 mile daily. It's for the person that drives less than 40 daity. With the ability to go further.

Hi ALS:

___The Volt when running in Charge sustaining Hybrid Mode will receive more than 37 mpgUS for sure. A 1.4L clamped to run within certain high fuel economy ranges in a fully hybridized compact that has a Cd of .27 or so is going to do much better that that with the average YaHoo behind the wheel... And much higher from anyone here :D

___Good Luck

___Wayne

if the whole point of this car is to "save" GM, then they need to drop the price to the upper 20s. If it is in the mid to upper 30s they will only sell a limited amount, especially in this economy. There will be some rich folks who will buy it because of the prestige value, and there will be some rich folks who will buy it because it's a hybrid, but the pool of rich folks isn't that big anymore. Most of the "I want it cuz it's green" crowd will buy a $20k Insight, a $22k HCH, or a $25k Prius. Plus, I bet there will be a ton of people who are interested but will wait at least a year before plunking down serious change on a car that's made by a company with a reputation for crappy craftsmenship.

...

For example, there is a sizable percentage of the population willing to spring for a vehicle costing roughly $35K -- all you have to do is look at what travels our roads to see that. If they are going to spend that much money anyway, why shouldn't they consider something like the Volt?

That's what GM, and the other manufacturers are hoping. You have to replace the value of supersize SUVs with something hopefully as profitable. Small econ cars will not do it.

Honda is using the Acura TSX as a diesel 'flagship' and it looks like the Volt is being positioned the same way (as was the failed hybrid Accord).

Low TCO cars get in the way of higher margins, so it's "margins first, lower priced cars later." I don't know if GM has another choice but to embed the increased cost - wrap it in leather and plastichrome to fund the rest of the low TCO car line.

I'm surprised that Honda takes such GM-like approach to introductions, though -- slow and safe to a fault. They have the might now to leapfrog.

Hi Flatty:

___Like all GM vehicles however, they are not making a premium on anything except those nuts enough to go pay Employee pricing for a Yukon or Tahoe for example. Even brand new Cadillac CTS’ are going for under $30K here in IL. If GM wanted to push into the mid 30’s to low 40's, they should have E-Flexed the CTS and not a torsion beamed rear axle, next generation Cobalt compact. My parents have owned (2) of those POS supplied for an Aunt and they have both been POS in no uncertain terms. That includes the brand new 08 with < 5K miles!

___A Volt at $35K? Toyota is going to clean GM’s clock with both the Prius-III and the OEM Prius-III PHEV-20 (we think???) for much less. A Volt at $28 - $32K makes a lot more sense.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi All,

Lets see, 40 m/day, say 6 days a week, that is 12480 miles. An EPA 28 mpg combined car uses 445.7 gallons for 12480 miles. The cars last 10 years at least, that is 4457 gallons. The 28 mpg car costs $ 20K (automoatic trans , pontiac G6, 4 cyl engine) in a few years when the Volt becomes available.

$40 K - $20 K is $ 20 K. Lets assume that electricty stays at 1/6 the cost of gasoline. $20K / 4457 is $4.48 . If gasoline averages that from 2010 to 2020, then electricity to run the Volt is $20K / 6 or $3333.

So the Volt then costs $ 3333 more to operate. But then there is brakes, starters and alternators on the standard car. Starters and Alternators is going to be about $500 total for 124800 miles. For that mileage your going to need 2 front brake jobs, and one rear. That will probably be around $1500 altogether. So, the Volt comes in about $ 133.3 / year more expensive.

Hmm. Economically, you have to be betting that gasoline will go up another 50 cents, and stay there, on average from 2010 to 2020. Some people will take that bet.

Hi Flatty:

Even brand new Cadillac CTS’ are going for under $30K here in IL. If GM wanted to push into the mid 30’s to low 40's, they should have E-Flexed the CTS and not a torsion beamed rear axle, next generation Cobalt compact. My parents have owned (2) of those POS supplied for an Aunt and they have both been POS in no uncertain terms. That includes the brand new 08 with < 5K miles!

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne,

The CTS is about as quick as a Prius up to 40 mph, only. I was very supprised they are not quicker. Above 40 its very quick, but not below. So, people are buying mystique. Torsion-beam rear suspension? That is the same as the Prius and Corolla - its an economy way to have more trunk width. But it hardly provides Bimmer handling.

Hi Donee:

___Two points that have to be brought into the cost equation. Resale is number one. I can only hope the Volt will have the resale of a Prius or better but if you want to lose your shirt, go buy a Cobalt for a 75,000 miles drive. You may as well burned your money. Number two is the finance issue with the extra $15K over a 5-year payment in most cases.

___Add to it is you will be beyond its 40-mile range in some cases. Vacations, no outlet, whatever so there is fuel being consumed however rarely (hopefully never :)) which means cost at 50 + mpg. You would not dare compare this to a G6 but a Civic, Corolla, HCH-II and Prius as it fits the size and hopefully the low depreciation vs. anything else from GM including the G6.

___WRT the torsion beam suspension, the Corolla and Prius do not cost $35K.

___About the CTS… Not that we care but its 3.6L DI ICE will take down a Prius in the 0-60 dance without even breathing hard. < 6.0 with the DI and < 7.5 with the std. 3.6L. The Volt appears to be heading for 8.5 seconds which will also destroy a Prius in that particular parameter.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Oh yea, the CTS is much quicker above 40 mph. No disagreement.

Yep, 150 hp, pure electric drive out Prius's the Prius. No wait for the engine to turn on, and more torque, besides no gear shifting delay.

My point of view on resale is it will be worth what service is left in it, if its a desirable vehicle. Same for the Prius and Volt over the period of time we are talking about (til 2020).

Wayne, you are definitely correct that $28K-$32K makes a lot more sense -- notice that the tax break was just approved for electric vehicles amounting to up to $5K (which the Volt would qualify for in whole).

With the AMT junk in the way I'm not thinking that is going to help much. :(

Even the small companies are competing. The Aptera for $30,000 will do "40-60" miles all electric, and they already have a proven test car that will do that. After that it does "about 130mpg". This car is more of a revolution than the volt. link:
http://www.aptera.com/details.php
The Aptera is a car I will seriously consider buying if I have the Engineering job that I hope to have.

I wouldn't worry too much about old gas. Most people will manage to use at least 1/2 a tank every 6 months or so. I just started my '93 Saturn after it sat unused for 4 months. 1 second on the starter, then it ran on 3 cylinders until I gave it some gas and load. It has gone 6 months on its summer tank for the last few summers, with no apparent issues.

GM vs. Honda/Toyota -- there are a few fit and finish issues on my '93 Saturn, and although it easily passes emissions, I have to watch the oil level. Our '93 Accord has much better fit and finish, but it has had a lot more go wrong, both engine/power train and body/interior. If it weren't for the oil consumption, I would have to say the Saturn is a better built car! The Accord has been a very reliable car too, even though it has cost us 3 or 4 times as much in repairs. BTW, the oil consumption began before the Saturn began sitting for months at a stretch.

I would like to say that getting the country off oil is important enough to me that I would buy a Volt, even if the economics aren't quite there. Reality is that I'm cheap (still driving '93s!). I get around town on my bike just fine, and as much as I like xc skiing, those are optional trips that will get dropped if there is a severe oil crunch. A 20 mile EV range Prius is probably enough to recover all the engine braking energy going over Berthoud Pass. 20 miles probably wouldn't make my wife's driving totally gas free, but it would be close most days.

Seeing the current economic problems I can't imagine many people paying 30-35k (or more) for the Chevy Volt IMHO.

So, once the battery is discharged, it will continuously produce emissions? will the battery eventually charge the battery and stop the ICE?

I guess i am more focused on long range which this car isn't made for, but i do wonder how "green" it really is.

"Forced ICE use", can this happen if Bob says " not a drop of fuel" will be used?

IMO, with all the choices hopefully available in 2010-2011, why would i buy an overpriced, untested vehicle? i will be looking to buy, but cost is somewhat priority. will the niche market support GM until they lower prices?
first post/reply thanks for having me. chris :Banane35:

Hi, Chris! Welcome to CleanMPG!!

Once the ICE turns on it will (according to current specs anyway) only maintain the battery at the "Customer Depletion Level" -- this is defined at 35% actual SoC (State of Charge). The software won't allow actual SoC to drop below about 30% and the user will not ever see that swing -- it will only be called upon in high load situations for assistance (such as climbing a hill or needing extreme acceleration). If the SoC drops below 35%, the generator will charge it back up to that level but no further. The reasoning is that gas generated electricity is very expensive -- you'd much rather plug in and use the cheap electricity at your house, right?

As for emissions, I expect the car to be very clean emissions-wise. It is slated to achieve roughly 50mpg and with the car as advanced as it is I would expect it to be a PZEV. Keep in mind also that starting and stopping an engine can cause a NOX spike -- continuous running won't do this. As far as I have been able to determine, the car will in fact turn off the engine when it makes sense -- such as when you stop the vehicle.

Personally, if I want to avoid using gas and there is some forced ICE use programmed in... I'll just "forget" to put gas in the tank. ;)

$4.48 . If gasoline averages that from 2010 to 2020I don't think there is a snowballs chance in h3ll of gas being below $10/gal in 2020, but your metric of gas $ -vs- elect $ being 6:1 may be a good approach.

My math puts elect $/mile -vs- gas $/mile much closer to 3 to 1 not 6 to 1.

0.0288 $ / mi @ 160 Wh/mi and $0.18/kWh (yes that is my elect price here).
0.0864 $ / mi @ 40.5 mi/gal and $3.50/gal (yes that is my gas price here).

But if gas is $3.89/gal where you live and elect is $0.10 / kWh then the 6:1 metric works perfect.

Jay has been holding about 160 Wh/mi as a hypermiler running pure EV in his PHEV, so I think thats a good "high" number. I've seen plenty of 40 mpg tanks posted by Yaris owners so I think that is a good "high" number.

11011011

I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen but if I needed a car in the next ten years I'd happily choose a Chevy Volt over a Prius-III provided it came with a manual transmission and not a Cvt.

As it is, I plan on driving my current car until the wheels fall off, knowing fully well since it's a Toyota it could be a while. :)

I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen ....

As it is, I plan on driving my current car until the wheels fall off, ..... :)

Jinx. I hope you aren't superstitious. Every time I've said that somebody has T-boned my wife on the way to church . :eek:

Like Wayne was sort of saying above, if you just wanted to save money, instead of a new Volt or Prius X, you'd pick up a 6 year old Cobalt for about $2-4k, ignore the rattles and creaks and drive it for another 10 years--assuming gas prices in the $3-5/gallon range for the next 10 years. People like to have the latest and greatest.

I'd buy the Honda hybrid over the GM car any day. You are basically guaranteed that the Honda will have a better warranty and last longer. Wait, it's cheaper too?

The warranty claim doesn't hold up. Chevrolet's default warranty has the same bumper-to-bumper coverage, a longer (in terms of mileage) powertrain coverage, and a longer period of corrosion coverage.

Honda warranty:

http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/warranty.aspx

Honda Limited Warranty Information
Bumper-to-Bumper Limited Warranty (years/miles) = 3/36,000.
Powertrain Limited Warranty (years/miles) = 5/60,000.
Corrosion Limited Warranty (years/miles) = 5/unlimited.
Accessory Limited Warranty - All Honda accessories are covered up to 3 years or 36,000 miles, depending on time of installation.Chevrolet warranty:

http://www.chevrolet.com/warranty/terms/

3-YEAR/36,000-MILE NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY
GM vehicles registered in the U.S.A. receive New Vehicle Limited Warranties that include the following:
Complete vehicle coverage:
3-years/36,000-miles (whichever comes first).
Tires (covered for defects in materials and workmanship; not for normal wear and tear or road hazards).
Towing to your nearest Chevrolet dealership.
Rust-through corrosion protection:
6-years/100,000-miles (whichever comes first).
Powertrain coverage:
Fully transferable 5-years/100,000-miles (whichever comes first). See dealer for details. CORROSION PROTECTION
Chevrolet vehicles are designed and built to resist corrosion.
All body and sheet metal components are warranted against rust-through corrosion for 6-years/100,000-miles (whichever comes first).
Application of additional rust-inhibiting materials is not required under the corrosion coverage and none is recommended. See your Chevrolet dealer for terms of this limited warranty.
As for the general debate, in a purely financial argument, the Volt might not come ahead. Then again, I am not convinced that a hybrid comes ahead in a purely financial argument vs. a 4 cyl econobox -- for most drivers, anyway. People don't always buy cars based on a pure financial analysis, of course, and things like styling come into play....

If GM is going to charge a premium for the car, they should make it as 'upscale' as possible -- luxury interior and that sort of thing. (Actually, they probably should've made it a Cadillac....)

I personally am not planning on buying one. Of course, I'm not planning on buying a hybrid, either. One powertrain is enough for me to keep track of in my vehicles. (Your mileage may vary, of course.)

I don't think there is a snowballs chance in h3ll of gas being below $10/gal in 2020, but your metric of gas $ -vs- elect $ being 6:1 may be a good approach.

My math puts elect $/mile -vs- gas $/mile much closer to 3 to 1 not 6 to 1.

0.0288 $ / mi @ 160 Wh/mi and $0.18/kWh (yes that is my elect price here).
0.0864 $ / mi @ 40.5 mi/gal and $3.50/gal (yes that is my gas price here).

But if gas is $3.89/gal where you live and elect is $0.10 / kWh then the 6:1 metric works perfect.

Jay has been holding about 160 Wh/mi as a hypermiler running pure EV in his PHEV, so I think thats a good "high" number. I've seen plenty of 40 mpg tanks posted by Yaris owners so I think that is a good "high" number.

11011011


Hi Dan,

Well, gas had just dropped to about $3.89 in about a month from mid $4's, but now its back up to $4.169 where/when I refueled last week. And at 40.5 mpg that is $.1029 / mile .

Electric here is $.0814 / KWH - $.0130 / mile

So, at the moment the ratio is 7.9 to 1.

I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen but if I needed a car in the next ten years I'd happily choose a Chevy Volt over a Prius-III provided it came with a manual transmission and not a Cvt.

As it is, I plan on driving my current car until the wheels fall off, knowing fully well since it's a Toyota it could be a while. :)

Hi Lamebums,

I doubt the Volt has more than 2 gear ratios. And it may very well have only 1. So no need for shifting at all, then. The motor torque characteristic probably makes multipe gear ratios unnecassary. Based on the problem with the Tesla 2 speed transmission, I doubt the Volt will have muliple gears.

Remember, the Volt is a pure series hybrid. The engine runs at one , or a very narrow range of RPMs, set by the intake and exhaust system tuning. The shaft output of the engine only drives an alternator/transistor bridge (then to the battery), most likely. The transistor bridge pulses to set the average torque load on the engine. And the amount of fuel fed to the engine is controlled based on the what the alternator torque is set to.

They are saying its a 1.5 liter engine. For flatlanders, that is total overkill. Its only needed for highway mountain climbing. An efficiency mod may very well be to replace that with a 750 cc engine!

Not having a GM (Borg Warner?) automatic transmission in the Volt may be the biggest improvement in reliability (if Delphi? gets the electronics durable), in GM history.