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Sony Pictures - Who killed the Electric Car (http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/)

Hi All:

___I had the opportunity to catch this film with my nephew and mother last night and about all I can say is that it was a really good film but also an emotional experience. Some are probably thinking that is nuts but others might feel the same after taking it in. At times I was sadden by the visuals and dialog and at other times I was furious from the same … It was really that good and I recommend that many here see it given we are not CleanMPG members because of our willingness to waste fuel, raise emissions, or a hundred other negative effects caused by our ever increasing use of fuel in the manner in which we use it.

___The site itself is loaded with a cacophony of information that some might find interesting in its own right as well …

___I have so much research to do and so much to say but have to get to work. I hope you all get the chance to view it for yourselves even with the naysayers showing the non-practical issues surrounding the EV-1 and its brethren as well …

___Chuck, I really hope you can find the time to clean up the UW- Madison EV-1 thread so as to create an article out of it. It will go along very nicely with this movie if I do say so myself.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm just curious, but how much time is spent on the cars other than the EV-1? For example, the RAV4 EV and Honda EV? Do they dedicate any time to that, or do they just bash GM non-stop and give Honda and Toyota a free pass?

That's a good point.

They also crushed their EVs.

Hi Brandion and Chuck:

___Yes, they showed and talked about more then a few Honda EV’s (FCV’s w/out the FC’s) and RAV4’s heading to the shredder too. Just sad :(

___Good Luck

___Wayne

i was about to see this movie, but i've pretty much know what happens from start to finish, for those who perfer visual.

i'll wait till it comes on dvd ;P

Hi Phil:

___As another recommendation, you are the exact person who should see this movie! It is really that profound … Just a well put together documentary that can swing you from mad to sad to ticked to smiling over 10 - 15 minute time frame.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I also recommend this to anyone of college age and teenagers will also really like it too. Both my daughter and husband did though they're nearly 50 years apart.
Yeah I felt the same funny range of emotions, but at the end I felt "agitated" in that positive, kind of way I remember from the '70s.

This film finally made its way to Madison. Great film. Everyone should go see it.

The electric option may have proven to be too weak of a power supply for the weight .... overpowered by the common sense of the hybrid designers ... esp when seeing the results of hypermiling (hybrid-style driving) basically that same Cd/size vehicle with only a tiny engine.

It could have made the other fuel look too way too cheap (for the time being anyway).

(just an opinion)

The question is not "who Killed The Electric Car?" but rather "what Killed The Electric Car?"

The answer is the same culprit since the 1890s - the lead-acid battery.

The EV-1 was a very sleek car with state of the art electronics, but its lead-acid batteries betrayed it. "Car and Driver" never could wring more than 37 miles out of it.

It was a nice, aerodynamic, overweight rolling anachronism. It didn't need a conspiracy theory to kill it. It croaked on its on.

If you cannot do better than the EV-1, the electric car is dogmeat.

Here you go, Dave:

http://www.ev1.pair.com/charge_across_america/charge_html/nimh_test2.html

http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf [pdf]

I'm just sayin'...

I felt the same way you did, xcel. Politicions and lobbists suck!!!, sometimes. H

The question is not "who Killed The Electric Car?" but rather "what Killed The Electric Car?"

The answer is the same culprit since the 1890s - the lead-acid battery.

The EV-1 was a very sleek car with state of the art electronics, but its lead-acid batteries betrayed it. "Car and Driver" never could wring more than 37 miles out of it.

It was a nice, aerodynamic, overweight rolling anachronism. It didn't need a conspiracy theory to kill it. It croaked on its on.

If you cannot do better than the EV-1, the electric car is dogmeat.

"Car and Driver" probably couldn't get more than 44 mpg out of a Prius!!
You should see the movie (I actually bought the DVD, and I also felt the same emotional pull).

There were people that wanted to keep their EV-1s (etc. They didn't exactly give Toyota and so on a pass, but there was more info on the EV-1.) They would have BOUGHT their EV-1s. There are people who would buy the EV-1 with a lead acid battery and a range of 37 miles, I think the average commute is actually less than this. I am not so sure it would have payed for itself at the time, but if they had invested then, we would be MUCH farther along than we are now. There is also an interesting side note on the battery, re the battery technology owned by some oil company. I don't know the entire bit on this as it has been awhile since I saw this.

And didn't the EV-1 come out with another type of battery, I seem to recall that?

--des

Chevron killed the electric car as we knew it in CA in the late 90's. Electric cars could be in production right now if they would allow the production of the large format NiMH packs.

I avoid Chevron stations all together.

Chevron killed the electric car as we knew it in CA in the late 90's. Electric cars could be in production right now if they would allow the production of the large format NiMH packs.

I avoid Chevron stations all together.


Yeah yeah I was thinking of that. I wonder where Chevron is right now on this? I wonder if they might be waiting for some big government funding/ development package?

Also they only used lead acid batteries for a year or so, then they used nickel metal hydride batteries.

--des

Big Dave, the the others are right that the 2nd gen EV1 was NiMH powered and had a great range on it. Also true of the Toyota RAV4EV, the only production EV ever sold to the public in modern times.

All the other late-90s/early-00s EVs were leased and then scrapped upon return - including an estimated 1247 RAV4EVs -- but for unknown reasons Toyota actually decided to sell 328 of them to leaseholders when they ceased production in 2002. Most are still on the road running their original NiMH packs with excellent range -- and over 100mpg equivalent per the EPA website (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/17328.shtml). A RAV4EV recently sold on eBay for $70,000, by the way.

The fact that the RAV4EVs are still going is testament to the capabilities of the NiMH platform, and probably also to Toyota's battery management. Since the Chevron/Cobasys patent blockade prevents replacement batteries from being made, these EVs are all running on the original battery packs and still going strong 5-7 years down the road.

I finally watched this yesterday -- it was worth going through 11 segments on youtube.

Jeez, you watched it on Youtube. It only costs $13 directly off the website.

I heard many times throughout the movie that the Lead acid batteries had a range of 60 miles. I know it depends on how fast/hard you drive, but man, most people would be perfectly fine with a 60 mile range. I admit that 30-40 miles is a bit scary for people that like to run errands after work. Most people (90%) drive less than 30 miles to work, though. The NiMH batteries would have made that car a winner for GM. Stupid Chevron and GM!

Speaking about performance, did anyone ever see the article in Popular Science or Pop. Mechanics were GM took the EV1 to a high speed test track, installed a tail cone, moon hubcaps, and removed the govener? I want to believe that it got up to a top speed of around 150 mph. Anyone that doubts the performance of an electric car just needs to talk to someone that has driven the EV1.

Tom, I didn't see that option... and I have to save my pennies anyway. ;)

The biggest problem with lead acid batteries isn't the initial range -- it is the discharge depth, weight, and longevity. The first two can be dealt with if you are so inclined, but replacing those batteries on a regular interval can be quite expensive.

I didn't see that article but I sure would like to! Maybe I can find it online somewhere.

I'd absolutely love to own a second gen EV1 -- it would be pretty much perfect for everything I use the Insight for (other than long distance trips -- over 140mi, that is). It really saddens me to see tech like that destroyed -- particularly as it would still be plenty updated enough for today without any major changes at all. :(

And for your long-distance trips, how hard would it be to buy a small Honda generator, put it in the trunk (running the exhaust out the back) and plug in the car's charging plug? Instant Volt :-)

I saw a review of the EV Smart ForTwo where the reviewer did just that. :)

^Yup, must've seen the same clip. She plugged in the gennie, tossed it in the back and left.

I agree I wouldn't buy a 35 mile range car (though if I were in a position to have a second car for the family, say, not an option in my case) it would be ok. I would feel very happy with 60, I think. It also doesn't say how they were driven. The stuff I saw indicated people were going 65-70 mph on the highway. It would make a difference if they were going 55.
I don't know if it had regen braking, or if this is something that is newer tech. or only applies to hybrids?

Sean, I salute you for watching on you tube. You can come to my place and watch it on tv. (Though the commute is a bit much!)

Oh yes, the "murders" in "Who Killed the Electric Car?" were a much longer list of culprits:
California, hydrogen promises, the car companies, the gas company, consumers, GM, low gas prices, etc etc.

--des

Thanks, Desdemona!

Those cars did have regenerative braking.

Anytime Sean. Of course there isn't too much danger you will take me up on my offer. :D

Anyway, too bad there are none around to hypermile. I suppose the hypermile thing would be, how many miles can you get on a charge as mpg would be meaningless. No doubt there would be new techniques to do this. I think we have a couple electric car owners on the list.

--des

:)

Hypermiling an EV is down to keeping the batteries at optimal temperature and extreme momentum conservation. It is different, but not foreign. ;)

Just watched Who Killed the Electric Car? last night with my wife. It actually has me worried about the Chevy Volt. Given the problems the engineers have reported with getting the battery weight down and GM's willingness to let bad news about the Volt out (see the Atlantic article), I'm worried they'll be all too happy to a) create a crappy electric, or b) market it badly and make it difficult to purchase as they did with the EV-1.

God... I wish the car companies invested ways to mass produce Carbon Fiber.

Yeah yeah I was thinking of that. I wonder where Chevron is right now on this? I wonder if they might be waiting for some big government funding/ development package?



--des

Although I haven't seen the film yet, I keep seeing Chevron commercials on PBS talking about how Chevron is investing big in researching Li ion batteries for use in cars.

I just watched "who killed the electric car". It was very much like when GM,Firestone, and Standard oil went around the country replacing street cars with busses so that they could sell more vehicles,tires and fuel. At least they did not get to crush the old street cars.
What the car makers, Oil companies and our government (hijacked, then bought and paid for by the first 2) did to the ev1 was criminal.
Boy does GM look stupid now.
It pains me that Honda and toyota bought into the destruction of the electric cars.

John

The article on the gen II sounds like a dream. The problem is if the NiMH were really that far along in 1999 there wouldn't be so much speculation about GM's ability to build the VOLT. 3 times the GM stated goal of 40 miles on a plug in has already been accomplished according to the writer.

Judging by the roar of the crowd here about how great the EV1 was you would think that people would be excited that GM was finally going to build an EV1 like vehicle you can actually buy. The market actually seems big enough now to sustain enough mass production to bring it out at an affordable price. I hope all the screaming folks put their money where their mouth is when it finally arrives or it wont last long.

God... I wish the car companies invested ways to mass produce Carbon Fiber.

I'm with ya.

The lotus elan is the perfect example of what they could do. The car has a tiny Toyota engine with unreal performance that gets great mileage to boot. If it was actually re geared and tuned for MPG it would probably get unreal mileage. The same chassis is used for the Tesla performance EV.

Hey this guy on youtube was in the movie http://www.youtube.com/liveoilfree

Anyways, my understanding was that the NiMh battery was just fine, but GM decided to sell the patent to chevron. So that left Toyota, Honda, Ford, and all the other people making ev's no option to continue making them. Also the CARB requirement for ev's got removed too.


Also you gotta wonder, the RAV4 EV and the EV-1 NiMh, those cars are 10+ years old now, where the hell would we be right now if those cars didn't stop production?

Hi All:

___A few more stills of the final Volt…

http://www.youtube.com/v/daec5BwoQ3M&hl=en&fs=1

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Just watched it on YouTube. Wos! I immediately ordered a copy for the wife and kids to see!

Sad movies always make me cry! :( :)
Larry

Sad, like when the hero dies at the end?

The article on the gen II sounds like a dream. The problem is if the NiMH were really that far along in 1999 there wouldn't be so much speculation about GM's ability to build the VOLT. As I mentioned a month ago on this thread, it really was that far along. By nearly all accounts the NiMH EV1 worked great, and hundreds of 5-6 year old Toyota Rav4 EVs powered by NiMH are still going strong.

The reason neither GM nor anyone else is producing NiMH BEVs is that Chevron (the patent holder) won't let them. Case closed. At least until 2015, when the patent expires.

The reason neither GM nor anyone else is producing NiMH BEVs is that Chevron (the patent holder) won't let them. Case closed. At least until 2015, when the patent expires.

That is the commonly told story.

Although I don't agree with that view of events... I recognize I am in the minority.