Archives

I was over at GreenHybrid and noticed two more lexus hybrids that I hadn't noticed before. There hybrid lineup is now the 42k RX (a lux HiHy with 1mpg lower mileage), the GS 55k car (6cyl with 340hpm 5.2 0 to 50), and the LS 105k car (v8 with 438hp 5.5 0 to 50).

Come on, 340 & 438hp hybrid cars? I'll ignore the price; If you have the money you should be able to spend it wherever, but at those sort of prices you should be getting a lot more mpg; Its funny about Toyata guy talking about Tesla's 100k car not making it. Between the Tesla and the LS, I'd take the Tesla every time.

Its hard for Toyota to call itself green when selling these monstrosoties. And I even defended them before when others said the same about them selling trucks. People actually need a truck & Toyota's were well designed & fairly efficient. But who actually "needs" one of these cars.

Sorry, had to rant for a second.

Absolutely agree. Eric Powers was running around in a loaner
GS600h or whatever that new power-wagon of their is, and driving
it like he stole it just because it was fun, but really, it's
not the example you want to set or even encourage by accepting
the loaner over a weekend you're running an MPG-oriented event.
.
Anyone furthering the speed-n-power market is doing this country
a serious disservice, and possibly quite a few others too.
.
_H*

Besides....If I am really going to spend that much money on a car I would rather get MB or BMW with a diesel engine and get better mileage than lexus all day long. :p

Greenwashing at its finest

But then again... HYBRID SUVS!
Tahoe! Navigator!

Hey its "Green" right? Toyota killed their own EV program when the regime changed. Isn't it that surprising?

If hybrids were truly about being green, Toyota would be offering a hybrid Yaris type vehicle. Until they have competition hybrids are Toyota as SUV was to GM & Ford.

Hi Jonathan:

___We have a number of threads including the LS, GS and RXh but I think you would be interested in te following:

On the Block: A Hot Hybrid Goes Cheap in Hollywood? (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2825)

___Al, I was surprised to hear Toyota gave Eric an LS to play with during the week of HF as the first one he took out got smashed from behind. The accident was caused from a distracted driver while Eric was stopped at a light so it had nothing to do with him but like you said, driving around in an RX, GS or especially an LS is not what we stand for by any stretch. Fortunately only the RX sells in any kind of quantity…

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Greenwashing at its finest

But then again... HYBRID SUVS!
Tahoe! Navigator!

Hey its "Green" right? Toyota killed their own EV program when the regime changed. Isn't it that surprising?

I don't see it as greenwashing, not by a long shot. Some of us need the 4WD due to the demands of our roads. Some of us need more seating than a Prius can provide.

It is better to have a hybrid SUV on the road than a regular one. Much better.

"Green" isn't about forcing everybody to change their lifestyles to some ideal. It's about teaching everybody to consider the greater implications of their choices and helping them to make a better one. There can be more than one right answer.

I don't see it as greenwashing, not by a long shot. Some of us need the 4WD due to the demands of our roads. Some of us need more seating than a Prius can provide.

It is better to have a hybrid SUV on the road than a regular one. Much better.

"Green" isn't about forcing everybody to change their lifestyles to some ideal. It's about teaching everybody to consider the greater implications of their choices and helping them to make a better one. There can be more than one right answer.

But you have a smart hybrid. You are getting better mileage than most small cars, so your hybrid is part of the solution, not part of the problem. They are talking about the huge hybrids that maybe get 1 or 2 mpg better than their non-hybrid counterparts, but make the company tons of money, and improve their image.

Nobody NEEDS a car or SUV with 438 hp. I'm also willing to bet that most people who buy luxury hybrid SUVs don't buy them for their offroad capabilities.

I've got a good friend who bought an 08 Toyota Highlander. Its specifically says in the owners manual NOT to take it off-road, because the drivetrain isn't designed for it. Sure its a beautiful car, and they drive smart enough to net about 26 mpg, but that vehicle has nothing to do with rugged driving capability. Its got low profile tires and huge blingy rims!

This is all about the evil of marketing and the stupid rich IMHO.

I was over at GreenHybrid and noticed two more lexus hybrids that I hadn't noticed before. There hybrid lineup is now the 42k RX (a lux HiHy with 1mpg lower mileage), the GS 55k car (6cyl with 340hpm 5.2 0 to 50), and the LS 105k car (v8 with 438hp 5.5 0 to 50).

Come on, 340 & 438hp hybrid cars? I'll ignore the price; If you have the money you should be able to spend it wherever, but at those sort of prices you should be getting a lot more mpg; Its funny about Toyata guy talking about Tesla's 100k car not making it. Between the Tesla and the LS, I'd take the Tesla every time.

Its hard for Toyota to call itself green when selling these monstrosoties. And I even defended them before when others said the same about them selling trucks. People actually need a truck & Toyota's were well designed & fairly efficient. But who actually "needs" one of these cars.

Sorry, had to rant for a second.What a weak argument you present. I get similar MPGs in my 1996 LS400 as you get in your hybrid Toyota SUV. What are you talking about? Lexus hybrids are sporty but they are also very good for the environment. Check their emissions ratings. PZEV across the board. And their gas mileage is superb for their size class. Not everybody wants to drive a fifty horsepower aluminum can, you know.

Hi Hadi.

I don't have a problem with all Lexus vehicles, but some are out of bounds if you consider that Toyota is trying to promote itself as green. Those same vehicles could have much smaller gas or diesel engines, larger electric motors and get both the same acceleration numbers and much better mileage. Even some of the advertising for the cars I mentioned talk about how green these vehicles are, but green was a very secondary consideration in their design. Clearly performance and comfort was first consideration.

Few here would deny anyone the right to buy anthing they wish, nor would we want to prohibit a manufacture from producing anything unless its outright harmful. My complaint is the double standard of presenting green but designing otherwise.

And really I wasn't presenting an arguemnt at all, just expressing my opinion as to how this made me feel. It wouldn't prevent me from getting another Toyota.

I look forward to seeing your stats in the mileage logs.
Let face it. A sedan and an SUV are different vehicles; All things being equal I'd expect a sedan to get better mileage, but then again I can't stuff me,wife,dog,dog,dog,dog, and 5 days luggage for all in a sedan.

Good luck

Each to their own, but I'd rather see a company with an FPS Hybrid, than no Hybrid. People are gonna keep buying the FSPs, so why not save fuel while they drive it? Is that wrong?

Not everybody wants to drive a fifty horsepower aluminum can, you know.

I know I don't -- I want to keep driving my super powerful 67hp aluminum can. :p

Seriously, no point in getting too heated over this stuff.

True...sorry.

relax Lexus is changing their image, they want to the be environmental leaders because the rich can afford it. If Toyota plays their game right Lexus will get the first lithium ion battery before a Toyota does.

I don't see it as greenwashing, not by a long shot. Some of us need the 4WD due to the demands of our roads. Some of us need more seating than a Prius can provide.

It is better to have a hybrid SUV on the road than a regular one. Much better.

"Green" isn't about forcing everybody to change their lifestyles to some ideal. It's about teaching everybody to consider the greater implications of their choices and helping them to make a better one. There can be more than one right answer.

Good morning everyone - first time poster.

I have to agree with SpyGirl. Everybody into the pool!!. The fact that there is more than one right answer identifies that there are multiple questions.... and "green" is many things to many people - even in this forum.

The hybrid Escalade/Tahoe etc may not seem to have its place as a true "hybrid" (by some standards) but lets consider the fact that 1) the technology was developed and implemented 2) it does improve FE (however small the improvement) 3) the people that are driving it *may* feel compelled to make other changes in their lifestyle "because" they drive a "green car". ANY addition to the Hybrid lineup (yes even the Lexus LS sedan) is beneficial to the development of technology that will improve our overall FE improvement (as only ONE point in this discussion) - and more importantly (IMHO) - the continued development of the hybrid systems (as only one answer to one question).

Going back to the 438hp SUV that may get +1~2 improved FE. It may seem like a "drop in the bucket" - but at least it is a "drop" in the bucket - which can translate into more drops in the bucket and better technology as the systems are deployed into the market place and improved by the Engineers getting real-world experience with their systems and making the next generation a better product. I don't think that we Americans will ever completely quench our thirst for the high HP motor or the big SUV (or motorhome for that matter), but if we are able to better the "systems" that are currently in their infancy into something that will better our kids (and their kids) lives - then haven't we accomplished something?

So - what is "green"? the econobox that gets +50 mpg like the Prius or the Hybrid Highlander that gets 27/25 instead of its gas counterpart that only achieves 17/19? *only* FE? biodegradeable materials? regenerative power? *all* electric? solar? ....and the list goes on (like the song says).... so, hmmmmm it seems that the answer is not so simple.

Again, I applaude ANY manufacturer who develops a program (vehicle) that improves the way that we live our lives. Its our choice to buy the vehicle and utilize it to the best of our ability.

[EDIT: Noticing some threads revived from the past recently....wonder if that means more people are joining?]

I also disagree with the original post.

Part of it has to do with the fact that comparing straight-up MPG ratings are a little deceptive. The person who currently gets 10 MPG then switches up to a vehicle that gets 20 MPG actually is reducing fuel consumption more than a person who currently gets 20 MPG and switches up to 30 MPG. (See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619142118.htm)

Yes, ideally everyone should get 30+MPG. But it isn't happening yet. People have different tastes, different interests, and not everyone prioritizes fuel economy to the extent that people do on this board. There are people who prioritize cargo room, towing capacity, and yes, even performance. I see nothing wrong with providing more efficient engines that accommodate those desires. Getting everyone into more fuel-efficient cars is better across-the-board.

Now, is this compatible with Toyota's green tofu-and-birkenstock marketing campaign? Don't know. I try not to take corporate advertising at face value, though.

Still, if it ticks you off, no sweat. Just don't buy another Toyota product. That's the way corporations sit up and pay attention.

Hi Jkp:

___That argument is wearing thin with me as the person that purchased the 20 mpg vehicle is using 50% more fuel to drive the same distance as the person in the 30 mpg car and so on and so on. There is less consumption to drive the same distance vs. the 10 mpg vehicle but there is far more consumption than driving the higher fuel economy based vehicle to begin with.

___A similar argument can be made for $10,000 off a Hummer. Your $35,000 up front is $10,000 less than it could have been and that savings will pay for all of its gas over you time own the vehicle. It still is however a 15 mpg vehicle in the real world and you will pay at the pump each and every time you turn the key.

___On a much greener note, Lexus will be selling a Lexus Hybrid based off the Prius-III. I have it will be a sedan of some sort with all the bells and whistles so that is a plus in my book.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne:

Of course that's correct as far as it goes, but I still say that any improvement is an improvement.

Sometimes in this life, half a loaf is better than none.

If someone is trading in a $100K BMW or Benz that gets 12 mpg and going to a $100K Lexus that gets 25 mpg then I'd still call that a good thing. That's a 100%+ increase in fuel economy ;)

If Automakers really want to get big spenders into high mpg cars they should offer their first plug in hybrids as EV model flagship sedans. BMW for example could probably build a 7-series plug and buyers wouldn't flinch over any price tag. Buyers of ultra luxury cars and SUV's are not going to be swayed until hybrids are offered that offer that same level of interior space, luxury, power, and owners prestige.

Ok...let look at the argument in two different ways...

Car x1 gets 10mpg, traded up for x2 which gets 20mpg
Car y1 gets 50mpg, traded up for y2 which gets 75mpg.

Yes, you can say X increased its mileage by 100%, while Y only increased their mileage by 50%.
However you can also say person X will now go 10 miles further per gallon, while person Y will go 25 miles further on each gallon.

Its all lies, damn lies, and statistics. It comes down to the moral compas and which direction you want to head.

Per my original message, I was anoyed that the word "hybrid" was being applied as if these were green vehicles, where as they are really just using the tech to increase power. I think it inapropriate to advertise those vehicles are being green just because they use hybrid tech. However, I have been keeping an eyes on the few adds for these monsters, and Lexus isn't playing up the green aspect as much as I thought they would, so I'm less annoyed by them.

At this point, my biggest annoyance is that the time and money spent creating them wasn't distributed in to the products that could sell in much greater numbers. However, race track technology has created some good street tech which gives us more power (bah), better braking (yea), and even better economy (yes, Yes, YES!). Hopefully the money spent here will eventually translate into better hybrid tech through the entire Lexus / Toyota line.

As Wayne pointed out, a lux Lexus version of the Prius will have a market & that may put a lot very high (but probably not quite as high as the Toyota Prius) vehicles in even more hands.

Guess I'm mellowing on the whole thing.

At this point, my biggest annoyance is that the time and money spent creating them wasn't distributed in to the products that could sell in much greater numbers. However, race track technology has created some good street tech which gives us more power (bah), better braking (yea), and even better economy (yes, Yes, YES!). Hopefully the money spent here will eventually translate into better hybrid tech through the entire Lexus / Toyota line
.

Under that line of thought we wouldn't even have brands like Caddy, Buick, Lexus, Acura, Audi, or Infiniti. An Italian made California isn't going to be a car built in great numbers but it will be built because there will still be a select few who wants one and are willing to pay the price tag.

If you put things in perspective - Toyota might never have even gone forward with the Prius or any other hybrid technology if it had not been for the money earned selling trucks and SUV's. Just because the Prius finally broke a millions cars sold doesn't mean Toyota would have been able to survive if they stopped productions of every Lexus and truck and focus's on just small hybrids back in 2004.

Until hybrids or alternative energy vehicles can keep a company afloat were going to still need a diverse lineup.