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I travel every day for work. I service fire equipment, so I have to go to fire stations all over Western Pennsylvania. Quite often, I go to stations where I have a key/door code, or they've left the door open for me, so no one has to be there for me to do my job. Sometimes, someone is there, and stays while I work. A lot of my customers will have someone meet me, open the door, make sure I have everything needed, then they go to their own jobs. I am very conscientous about making my appointments on time.
Yesterday, I had to drive about 120 miles to the customer. They're up north a ways, and a lot of the trip is on a 2-lane, no passing zone road. I left with plenty of time, and was just taking it easy, until I got behind a beige Prius. The speed limit was 45, and he was doing a little over 30. I followed him at about 3 seconds for a few miles, and he was P&G ing, speeding up to about 40, then drifting down to 28.
The clock was ticking.
I did the Euro-standard "double headlight flash" as an indication that I would like to go around. He responded with a hand jesture. Ok, fine. I stayed at my 3-second distance, and kept creeping along. After nearly 20 MILES of below-40 travel through a twisty area, I finally got a passing zone (I absolutely WILL NOT pass in a double-yellow!). As I pulled along side, he yelled thru his window "Slow down, A-Hole!"
I was nearly 1/2 hour late for the appointment. My contact was late for work.
Thanks, Jerk.

Hi fireflyfarm,

I don't get the math with this. So by "just taking it easy" I take it to mean that you were doing or wanted to do the speed limit. That is as you stated 45 MPH. This "awful" Prius is P&Ging between 40 and 28, lets say an average speed of 33 MPH. If you were able to travel the 20 miles at 45 MPH it would take you 26 minutes. Traveling the 20 miles at 33 MPH it would take you 36 minutes. That would only make you 10 minutes late.

It sounds like you have other issues here.

Anyone else wondering if the Prius driver is a cleanmpg member? :)

If I was in that area it could have been me. It wasn't me because I havn't been in Penn. for months and I generally don't yell obsenities out the window. I always wonder why people will not pass. 20 miles is a long time to have someone following you. Generally after a few miles it the person refuses to pass, I will slow enough and pull over enough to induce a pass. Then if they don't pass it is their problem.

If he was, you should be ashamed of him.

What do you mean by hand gesture? That could be a rude one or he could have been waving you around. What were you expecting him to do when you flashed...that is supposed to be used by someone in a left lane to indicate they wish to go past so the person in front should move right. I know of no usage where it means, "please pull completely off the road so I may pass".

As was pointed out, it doesn't seem he could have caused a half hour delay unless you were planning on going beyond the speed limit to make up for time lost earlier.
However, if there was a long area of no passing either do to traffic or to road markings, I'd say the Prius should have speeded up and stayed between 40 & 45mph while there was traffic behind him. But that's a courtesy, not a requirement, and people shouldn't expect it, only hope for it. Flashing your lights may have made him less sympathetic.

If I was in that area it could have been me. It wasn't me because I havn't been in Penn. for months and I generally don't yell obsenities out the window. I always wonder why people will not pass. 20 miles is a long time to have someone following you. Generally after a few miles it the person refuses to pass, I will slow enough and pull over enough to induce a pass. Then if they don't pass it is their problem.

I do understand that there can be long stretches without any room to pass or room to pull over, but I would think most roads have room for a HMer to do as you say, and RR a little extra to make room. And fff is justified to be upset by the driver's aggressive proselytizing, especially since it sounds like fff wasn't tailgating.

But I must agree that sometimes folks just won't pass, and for no apparent reason. I see this even on 4-lane roads. I've had SUVs tailgate me for miles, with the driver seemingly upset, when there is an open lane to the left. I can't understand that. Maybe they are hoping to draft my Eclipse, haha.

Jud, last time I checked your Prius is bright red, not beige. It wasn't you. ;)

Hi fireflyfarm,

I don't get the math with this. So by "just taking it easy" I take it to mean that you were doing or wanted to do the speed limit. That is as you stated 45 MPH. This "awful" Prius is P&Ging between 40 and 28, lets say an average speed of 33 MPH. If you were able to travel the 20 miles at 45 MPH it would take you 26 minutes. Traveling the 20 miles at 33 MPH it would take you 36 minutes. That would only make you 10 minutes late.

It sounds like you have other issues here.

Yes, I drive the speed limit. My truck gets 13MPG with regular driving, and 13.3 with HM, doing almost everything except FAS (I just won't do that, especially in a 3-ton truck). I estimated the distance and speeds, but the total drive was WAY over 20 miles- closer to 120. This incident was my major delay, and could have been avoided if the guy would have let me by, instead of giving me the finger. I never tailgated, even when we slowed to below 20 at one point.

I have to agree that P&G between 40 and 28 in a 45 with traffic behind and no way around is a disrespectful, if not outright stupid thing to do. I would hope that nobody here would be self-centered enough to do that.

It definitely is not anyone on cleanmpg, I can tell you that much. FFF, I understand that you could be upset, however, sometimes the driver may just pull to the side and slow down to 20mph so you can pass him...i don't think any cleanmpg member would scream out the window to you tho. hopefully issues like this can be avoided with our members. From what we practice here, this shouldnt be hard.

Jud, last time I checked your Prius is bright red, not beige. It wasn't you. ;)

Sometimes it gets pretty dirty.;)


Yes, I drive the speed limit. My truck gets 13MPG with regular driving, and 13.3 with HM, doing almost everything except FAS (I just won't do that, especially in a 3-ton truck). I estimated the distance and speeds, but the total drive was WAY over 20 miles- closer to 120. This incident was my major delay, and could have been avoided if the guy would have let me by, instead of giving me the finger. I never tailgated, even when we slowed to below 20 at one point.

I suggest that you reread this article. As a .3 MPG increase is not very much.

I have to agree that P&G between 40 and 28 in a 45 with traffic behind and no way around is a disrespectful, if not outright stupid thing to do. I would hope that nobody here would be self-centered enough to do that.

He also said that the Prius slowed to below 20 MPH. It seems that the Prius was trying to let FFF pass but he refused.

The bottom line is that FFF is complaining that he was late. This Prius only delayed him 10 out of his 30 minute problem. I again repeat there are other problems here.
Almost every HMer I know would rather have the traffic pass then be behind them. Since FFF "had" to stay behind him for 20 miles is a bit odd.

I am not sure who the jerk is in this situation.

... This "awful" Prius is P&Ging between 40 and 28, lets say an average speed of 33 MPH. If you were able to travel the 20 miles at 45 MPH it would take you 26 minutes. Traveling the 20 miles at 33 MPH it would take you 36 minutes. That would only make you 10 minutes late.

With any car I have, the glide profile between 28 and 40 would produce an average speed of significantly less than 33.

Also, in my state, a PSL of 45 means a legal minimum of 35. Below that, the slow car is required to pull over and let faster traffic around. Not that the minimum is ever enforced any better than the maximum.

The point of my responses here is to point out that the OP is using his lateness to bash Prius drivers or hypermilers in general. Here is why.

1) I used very simple math with simple assumpsions to show that the OP's lateness was not entirely caused by the Prius. He has a different agenda here.

2) 20 miles is a very long time to follow someone without passing. There are most likely plenty of opportunities to pass on this route.

3) The OP calling the Prius guy a jerk. I feel this is out of line because the whole situation is probably made up. If it is not, the real jerk is the guy who refused to pass when given the opportunity to do so.

... He also said that the Prius slowed to below 20 MPH. It seems that the Prius was trying to let FFF pass but he refused. ...

I haven't driven in PA. But my own experience elsewhere supports the belief that there are twisty no-passing zones that long where passing the offending vehicle simply isn't safe, even when it gives an invitation by slowing down without pulling off.

On the other hand, one shouldn't assume that all North American drivers understand a "European standard double-flash" signal.

Sometimes it gets pretty dirty.;)




I suggest that you reread this article. As a .3 MPG increase is not very much.



He also said that the Prius slowed to below 20 MPH. It seems that the Prius was trying to let FFF pass but he refused.

The bottom line is that FFF is complaining that he was late. This Prius only delayed him 10 out of his 30 minute problem. I again repeat there are other problems here.
Almost every HMer I know would rather have the traffic pass then be behind them. Since FFF "had" to stay behind him for 20 miles is a bit odd.

I am not sure who the jerk is in this situation.
Like I said, I WILL NOT pass on a double yellow, especially on a bendy, hilly road. I just checked- my truck weighs nearly 5 tons, not 3. It doesn't accelerate quickly, and hitting the brakes hard means having to pick up parts and tools that have fallen all over the inside of the box body. All I needed was for him to pull over on a straightaway, even halfway off the lane. The one 20 mph spot was on an uphill curve. NO WAY to pass there. I also stated that I estimated the times. I was 23 minutes late. That's close enough to half an hour, and I wasn't expecting to have to keep track of exact times, distances, and speeds over distance. I generally arrive within a few minutes of when I need to be somewhere, because my customers feel bad if I've been waiting for a long time. If I say 9:00, I'm there between 8:45 and 9.

there are twisty no-passing zones that long where passing the offending vehicle simply isn't safe, even when it gives an invitation by slowing down without pulling off.

On almost every road that I have been on, there are opportunities to pass. 20 miles without a passing opportunity just is not believable.

On almost every road that I have been on, there are opportunities to pass. 20 miles without a passing opportunity just is not believable.

You just haven't driven in enough different places.

You just haven't driven in enough different places.

I hate to butt in, but Jud is right, 20 miles w/ no opportunity to pass is just too much. I don't believe that is possible and trust me..I've driven in a LOT of different places including different countries.

There are plenty of back country roads that have a double yellow line for 20+ miles. I've been on some. (Keep in mind that there may have been passing zones, but they couldn't be used due to on-coming traffic - this has happened to me plenty of times.) There were probably places where the Prius could have pulled (even halfway) off the road and allowed FFF to pass (relatively) safely. That did not happen. FFF stated that he will not pass illegally on a double yellow line, for which I give a :thumbs_up:. The point FFF was trying to make, is that he was stuck behind a (likely) HM'er that was not considerate enough to let him pass safely. That makes him a jerk. FFF may not have been exact with his speed, distance, and time estimates, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that he was stuck behind a jerk which caused him (in part or in whole) to be late for an appointment.

Would you all have jumped down his throat if the jerk he described was a farm truck carrying a load of hay? FFF might not have been able to safely pass, and the truck wouldn't pull over to let him. That would certainly be labeled "JERK."

Just because FFF drives a large truck and the jerk was in P&G'ing in a Prius, does not eliminate the jerkiness of the Prius driver.

On almost every road that I have been on, there are opportunities to pass. 20 miles without a passing opportunity just is not believable.

You've obviously NEVER traveled the roads of Western PA. I travel extensively out there and yes, there are areas where you WILL go for an extended period of time without an opportunity to pass. Whether it’s the hills, the twisty roads, the oversize loads or the numerous coal trucks, passing can be and often is hard to do at best and suicidal at worst.
The jerk(s) in this case are most certainly the Prius driver, and yourself. Your condescending attitude leaves much to be desired.

OK, you caught me. I made the whole thing up. Here's what actually happened.
I got to work late, as usual. I spent an hour downloading porn on my work computer, and making long-distance calls on my company cell phone. I left the shop 45 minutes late, jumped in the truck, and sped out to the Turnpike. I could only do 85 because of all the scumbags doing 70, but I finally made it to my exit. Then I got on this stupid 2-lane, and had to slow down to 60 because the truck just can't fly up the hills. I rounded a bend, and here's this Prius putting along at 55. I rushed up on his tail, rolled back, and rushed again, just to let him know I was going around him. He immediately pulled off the road and stopped, and I gave him the finger as I went by. Once I got past him, I made up some time by doing 90 where I could. I got to the customer's 23 minutes late, so I told the guy waiting for me that I would have been there an hour ago, except this stupid hippie tree-hugger in a Prius held me up the whole way there.
THAT sound more realistic to you, in your smug self-righteousness? This was EXACTLY the reaction I was expecting when I wrote this, as a response to this: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14964
"I'm in front of you, and I'm better than you. You can either slow down and like it, or DIE."
Nope, couldn't have happened, because NO ONE who practices what we practice can be wrong. Just because I can't think of a road where there are no passing opportunites, there must not BE any, anywhere in the world. Even for 9600-pound trucks.
I guess I should have just swung out and passed the guy illegally, in double yellow. I should have gotten up at 4:30 instead of 5:15AM to feed the chickens, fish, and rabbits, that way I could have left home even earlier. I could have pulled over somewhere if I saw that I was going to be early, instead of getting to the customer's early. I should have made the appointmet for a later time, and explained to the customer that this was the only time I could be there, and he would have to be late for work to meet me.
Guess you were right, bestmapman. I'm the jerk here, because I couldn't adapt my schedule to allow for someone much more important, intelligent, thrifty, and generally better than me to drive the way he wants on HIS road. I shouldn't even have a driver's license, or even be ALIVE, for that matter.
Don't bother to leave the standard "Good Riddance!" messages. I won't be back to read them.

WOW,

Sorry for pushing your button. If I knew that you going to have such a reaction, I would have left it alone. Check your blood pressure.

Currious, I though the last few posts were backing FireFly up. I would agree that there are areas & times where you can go 20 miles without being able to pass, but usually there are oportunities. Most of us agree the Prius was wrong to both stay slow and not move over.

Keep in mind we don't have a vision of what happened. We don't know anything about the road and what surrounds us. On the one side we have someone going to slow and on the other we have somone flashing his lights to go around when there was apparently no passing lane.

I'd like to think most of us would have accelerated or pulled over. Maybe not right away, but after no more than a few minutes of having someone behind us. So firefly may not have been doing major hypermiling in a necessarily big, heavy vehicle, but he was one of us. No "Good Riddance" from me, more like sorry to have doubted you.

Hopefully you will read these message and join us again. Some of what was said may still be useful...flashing headlights are often though of as a "finger" more than the request "would you please move over?' Few here understand flash to pass. And lets consider the view of the Prius. He might be a little self centered, but he his probably used to be harrased by people who are jerks. You got grouped into that box by him & treated that way. It not that you belonged there, but that you looked most like one at the time he saw you. If you were in a small car and felt threatened by a large vehicle, would you pull off the road for him?

I hate to butt in, but Jud is right, 20 miles w/ no opportunity to pass is just too much. I don't believe that is possible and trust me..I've driven in a LOT of different places including different countries.

I cannot speak for your area, but check out this one:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267913
This route was so familiar while growing up that I didn't know it was so unusual until the Internet age. There are multiple opportunities to pass along it, but if memory serves, a 5-ton truck will have only 2 long enough spots in those 77 miles.

I have also been stuck just over 100 miles behind a slow vehicle. It was the middle of the 55 era, on a road that is well over 50% passing zone. But a major annual event had just let out at the other end, putting thousand of vehicles on the road at 2 to 5 second intervals. All the safe passing zones were obstructed by oncoming traffic, and Grandpa would not pull over for anything, despite ample opportunity. Judging by is plate, his destination was 30 miles beyond the event.

I was #4 in a line that grew well beyond the reach of my mirrors. It took an average of 25 miles per successful passing attempt. And none of the cars ahead of me missed a safe opportunity that I could have used.

That event is now on my no-travel list.

I guess we have learned two things from this thread.
1) Communication between drivers is incredibly touchy.
2) Communication on the internet is also incredibly touchy.

This thing escalated way beyond where it should have. I could have started a thread similar to this a couple of weeks ago when I found (and passed!) a fellow Prius driver doing 45mph in a 65 zone in the Boston area, snarling the hell out of the right lane for a mile and a half behind him. I know for sure that there is more than one way to be a jerk. Maybe that's still a taboo subject for us?

How fast was he going?

He was going 48-49 at a time when the median speed was about 10mph above that. I entered the queue about 145 miles from the event, about 175 miles from Grandpa's likely destination.

The Jerk of the Day was driving a Prius?!:eek:

Totally unfathomable, obviously... lol

Hi All,

I have to confess, I do this over about a 2 mile portion of one route I take. For some reason as the road narrows to 2 lanes from four, the speed limit increases to 45, even though there are all sorts of cross roads, and residences. After 2 miles of this, the speed limit reduces to 40 mph around a blind curve, and then continues on at 40 mph for a mile through a wetlands area, and the next 7 miles. There are two lights , one at the end of the wetland area, and another about 1/4 mile further on. While there are a few places to pass, at this time of day oncoming traffic is usually too thick for many to time it right.

I try to go slow in the 35 mph 4 lane zone that enteres the 2 lane 45 mph zone. This gets allot of people to pass me. So, I end up the tail-end charlie most of the time, which is my goal. Sometimes you get the cell-phone yackers, that just mimick what you do, and when the road runs out, there is no option but to jump in front of them. Which the Prius does quite well. Being the tail end charlie in this section does not mean I am not last thru the true gating light, however. This light is about 10 miles down the road from this area. I come up along side, or past many of the cars I encouraged to pass me at this gating light.

In the end, those that get "trapped" behind me in the 45 mph zone can end up in front of those that went around. They are not getting delayed any more than those in front however, due to the various lights along the way.

BTW, finished off this tank today at 68.5 mpg.

If you might have remembered my post about the congress woman, or man's wife, going around me, this was the same section of road. As I indicated, she passed, but then got caught in the wrong lane at that gating light. Which put me ahead of her again. Which apparently pissed her off so much she did the the agressive driving in front of the commercial truck I mentioned in that post, to get back past me.

Hi FFF,

As Best explained, this activity by the Prius driver cost you 10 minutes. Are you going to loose a customer over 10 minutes late arrival over that many miles of rural road? Do you have a cell phone? Use it to alert your customer next time. My experience is people who live out in rural areas expect the odd delay on the roads.

I have lived in rural and city areas. There is a cooperative interpersonal attitude, which you probably have with your customer. On the roads, people may try to distinquish themselves, maybe because the cooperation expected in interpersonal relationships holds that back somewhat. This works well and is advantagous, because in the rural area one may have to rely on ones neighbors, more than big brother.

For allot of people in the metropolitan areas the reverse is true. Interpersonal relationships can be overtly competitive. Allot of people on the roads do not have to distinquish themselves, however. For all the crap we talk about, on average most people are cooperative drivers. If not the roads would just gridlock up and nobody would get anywhere. Ever seen a rural Texas or Wisconsin driver in a Chicagoland expressway rush hour - it ain't pretty. I can just imagine what is going through their minds "Why do these cars not go any faster??!!" . Then they floor it, and squeel the brakes within 30 seconds, coming around a turn into a line of stopped cars.

And ten minutes is nothing compared to a bad day on a 23 mile commute in Chicagoland. So, be glad your not getting one or two of those a week, like many of metropolitan area drivers have. Tuesday, for me, it was an unexpected 30 minute delay on the drive home, and all the routes I take, had slow moving cars. I go over the top, or underneath the other roads on my other routes, and can see what is going on. And that really put the kaibosh on getting a 70 mpg tank this time.

The Jerk of the Day was driving a Prius?!:eek:

Totally unfathomable, obviously... lol

Finally someone brought this up. I knew if I bring this up myself nobody will believe me.

Jerk of the day comes in many forms, including PRIUS drivers. It happened to me too.

I was slowing down to ~ 90km / h (speed limit=110km/h) heading towards a highway exit. This stupid prius driver pushes his car to go ahead of me in the fast lane, cuts me off in close and short distance and slows down to 60km/h so he can negociate a 270 degree turn (3/4 of a circle). Please note there is NO cars behind me, but this scumbag finds it cool to accelerate in the fast lane, pass my car, cuts me off, and slows down just so he can safely exit the ramp to another highway.

1. If you can't negociate a turn at your current speed, why don't you slown and go behind another car instead of cutting them off and hopes they rear end you so you can get a new car? Take note that a Prius is not a sports car and it does not have the handling characteristics of a sports car. If you want handling and performance, ditch the Prius and get a car that satisfy your driving desire.

2. Obey the traffic rules. Driving a hybrid does not give you the right to speed up behind cars, pass them, and cut them off just so you can get to work on time.

3. Don't underestimate other drivers. They might take a photo of your car and report to the police.

If the Prius was well under the speed limit and didn't allow the cars behind a chance to go around simply as common courtesy then he's in the wrong and fully deserved being jerk of the day.

Trying to act like he owns the world works both ways--both in the form of tailgating and speeding, but also deliberately going too damned slow for everyone else if just as bad and saying "I own the damn world and to hell with anyone else back there."

If the guy was doing at or near the speed limit he would have been fine though, but he wasn't from what I gather.


On the other hand, one shouldn't assume that all North American drivers understand a "European standard double-flash" signal.

I never thought about that. I've always assumed any flashing (especially when accompanied by tailgating) is automatically hostile.

I've always assumed any flashing (especially when accompanied by tailgating) is automatically hostile.

Odd, because I've always thought it was merely a polite way of attracting the driver's attention, and letting him/her know that you'd like to pass. Of course it can get hostile, as for instance when the car in front obliviously passes turnouts with prominent "Slow Traffic Must Use Turnout" signs.

There are plenty of long stretches without passing areas (especially ones where you could pass with a 5 \-ton truck) around here, and in most of the other hilly & mountainous areas I've spent time in. And lots of people who drive slowly through them, apparently oblivious to the long line of cars following them. If cursing worked, a lot of them would have been reduced to piles of smoking scrap metal.

Fuzzy-

what was the speed limit? I'M ASking because I was driving 62 in a 55 a while back b4 hypermiling and gor pulled over for speeding...ever since i dont go over the limit. I HAVE bad luck with police and getting pulled over...

Wow, interesting thread here! :)
I could have got away with it in the D-van, he would have thought I was about to blow up!
he never would have suspected hyper miling :rolleyes::D

That said, one of the skills I want to master as a hypermiler is to get all the faster cars around me asap!

MT

That said, one of the skills I want to master as a hypermiler is to get all the faster cars around me asap!

MT

That's the trick, now isn't it! :)

Give the man a break!... He wasn't breaking the law. Last I checked, driving the speed limit is ...well, what is expected. Here you guys go defending the Prius driver when the FireFlyFarm was doing nothing wrong. And don't you go on with the "I wasn't there, so I couldn't possibly see it your way" load of bull.

It's one thing to hold up traffic in a 3 lane highway (they can always pass on the left), it's something else to not have the decency to pull off the road if you realize you're going a wee bit too slow. Here in SoCal, when I travel the mountain paths.... I don't want to even try to pass on blind curves even if there is breaks in the yellow middle line. If someone is even going 28 up a road meant for 45, then they need to get off the road to let people by. It doesn't matter if they know the "Euro lights blinking" idea... You look behind you and you see a trail of cars, you should know to pull over for bit, because it's obvious you're going slow, too slow.

And the tardiness...being his fault? He planned the trip for 45mph, maybe he should have left sooner. or Maybe he couldn't because he had just finished with a prior job. The thing was, he was planning a trip with driving at 45.

Come on people, call it what it is.

I never thought about that. I've always assumed any flashing (especially when accompanied by tailgating) is automatically hostile.

A search on aggressive driving usually leads to a referernce to flashing lights.

For example, for here (http://www.gobroomecounty.com/press/041305h.php) where it makes the top of the list.

Aggressive driving has been defined in many ways; however, the most comprehensive definition is the operation of a motor vehicle in a manner that endangers or is likely to endanger persons or property. Some common acts of aggression behind the wheel may include:

* Flashing lights at another motorist
* Aggressive or obscene gestures
* Blasting a horn
* Verbal abuse (even if the other driver cannot hear or see you)
* Tailgating
* Unsafe lane change
* Failure to yield right of way
* Disregarding traffic signals and signs
* Deliberately obstructing or preventing another from moving their vehicle

My question, and I know that many don't do what I do, is why did fff leave no slack in his travel time. To be 20 minutes late on a 120 mile trip over back roads and to blame one person seems to say that no time was allowed for delays. Either that or fff's estimate of the travel time was not real accurate in the first place. I don't know, but on a trip of that length over those roads building in some slack would have been advisable. I have a 30 minute commute to work and most days I'm at my desk 10 to 15 minutes early.

At the same time being forced to follow someone for 20 miles who averages 10 mph or more under the speed limit, even if it is legal, will stretch just about anyone's patience.

my comment on flashing lights behind someone......they may do it nicely in europe, but here it doesn't quite work that way. i remember a time on my longer commute when i was perhaps a quarter mile from a stop sign with a pickup truck up my tail pipe. in addition to riding my a$$, he not only flashed his lights, he left them on high beams as he rode right behind me.

then of course he accented his disgust with having to actually slow down a little to the stop by blasting his pipes as he turned right after i turned left.

a polite flick of the lights no longer seems to exist with today's drivers.

That's the trick, now isn't it! :)

That is what I am trying to figure out as I am new to this.

This morning I was on a 4 lane interstate @ 6:00 am heading in to work some wonderful overtime. Light traffic 3 or 4 semis had come up one on me over a ten mile stretch. (one @ a time) I gave them the 3 flashes of hazard lights, they move over and passed me in the left lane. Then a couple of miles later the next was approching. I gave him 3 flashes. He didn't move over (no other traffic in site, left lane clear). He got about 500 feet behind me, I gave 3 more flashes of the hazards. He closes to 50-75 feet behind me, flashes his high beams, and then move over to the empety left lane and passes me. Go figure.

Stan

Unfortunately there are truckers out there who care not at all about courteous driving.

If the road really is empty, consider a reverse pass. I'll do this on empty roads as a courtesy to other drivers so that they can continue straight.

IT SEEMS TO ME THE HEADLIGHT MOTION BY the trucker may be a courtesy flash. You should be able to tell if it's an aggravated flash. However they switched lanes and didnt tailgat you so... A good dign :)

IT SEEMS TO ME THE HEADLIGHT MOTION BY the trucker may be a courtesy flash. You should be able to tell if it's an aggravated flash. However they switched lanes and didnt tailgat you so... A good dign :)

It may have been a courtesy flash, but it wasn't pleasant in the mirror. LOL

FFF, sorry to hear of your run-in with a JotD (probably several days, from the sounds of it) in a Prius. Around here nobody going significantly below the speed limit would ever dream of pulling to the side to let cars pass, no matter how long the line behind them. Of course I live over on the other side of the state so it may be different where you are, but people around here are so obstinate that they'll do almost unimaginably dangerous things just to prevent someone else from passing in what would otherwise be a safe and legal manner.

Here's how obstinate they are around here. They'll pull into a single lane miles, miles, many many miles, before a two-lane section necks down to one lane, then they'll pull their vehicles halfway into the empty lane to prevent anyone from using it. It gets so bad that PennDOT has to put up signs leading into construction zones: "USE BOTH LANES".

Here's something to remember the next time you encounter Mr. JotD-in-a-Prius: passing on a double-yellow is legal in PA as long as there is sufficient distance to do it safely (this varies with the speeds of the vehicles), and provided that the roadway is not marked with signs specifying it as a no passing zone. Be safe, but don't let the double yellow be the only thing stopping you.

Funniest flash instance I ever saw was a small sports car pull up close behind a semi and did a flash to pass...I don't know what he thought the driver would be able to see, but the correct answer would be "nearly nothing"

WOW P-Dude was a jerk! On a two lane I NEVER block traffic! And I do a lot of two lane road work in eastern OK and western AR. If Im on a roll and getting good mpg and a car gets up behind me. I find a place to get off the road and let them by. If Im on a road where I know there is no place to allow a pass. I speed my ass up. And that is what P-Dude should have done.

When your on a two lane there are diff. rules than multi lane roads.

I spend time on these types of roads for work. Sometimes I can use my car. Other times I use my Ranger or a Co. Truck. Depends on the work, parts, tools and stuff. I won't change out the rotating element in a split case pump that does 5k gpm with a part and tool haul in my MZ3. Regardless I always plan my trip out and allow time for slow downs, wrecks. I also factor in my HM efforts if any in that run. Sometimes hypermiling is out. No time can be allowed for it at all. Other times I can drive like the P-Dude. But that does not MEAN I have the right to block traffic at all.

P-Dude was wrong.

And whats all this with folks not understanding flash and pass? Just goes to show what idiots we are at times. Its not assault. And I flash truckers when they have cleared me when making a pass so they can get tucked back in.

A few weeks ago we had a issue coming home on a friday. Two cars running door handle to door handle at 50 mph. One in the slow lane, the other in the passing lane on hwy 75 south between Okmulgee and Tulsa. They caused a two mile or better back up. I was ok with running 50 mph in the slow lane. But as traffic jammed up things went to hell in a big hurry. It was a mess. After about 7 miles of this mess I was also ready to get around this pair of jerks and move on. Turned out after one got a bump they were tree hugger girls driving Cobalt's with be green stickers all over the back of the cars. Was a very bad time and place to try to make a statement. Staying in the slow lane at 50 mph would have worked much better for them. P-Dude was trying to make the same statement to a large work truck.

Not a good idea.

Coming late, but if I was driving that Prius I'd taken the shoulder and allow passing - many Western states require you do do this on two-lane roads.

To me, high beams seem more likely to be hostile than a short honk.

Similar situation last night at 6pm: I was on a two lane access road to I35E going 35...on the left lane to go around an intersection and remain on the access road (Lewisville is one of many former farming communities that have awkward intersections as they became a Dallas suburb). This small tailgating pickup (S10?) gave me the highbeams and then immediately passed me on the right. For all intents and purposes, it looks like he went out of his way to be a jerk...6pm is kind of early to have already had a couple of beers. ;)

Still another situation: There is a major four-lane residential road in my neighborhoold - posted limit is 35. One day, a couple of drivers were going side by side at 20mph. After awhile, I finally passed over the yellow line to get around them and one of them honked...seemed oblivious that his behavior was not exactly legal and the cause of it all. ;)

Fuzzy-

what was the speed limit? I'M ASking because I was driving 62 in a 55 a while back b4 hypermiling and gor pulled over for speeding...ever since i dont go over the limit. I HAVE bad luck with police and getting pulled over...

This was the middle of the 55 era, and the limit was ... 55. He was over the 45 minimum, but was being followed by far more than the 5 cars max (the line reached beyond the range of my mirrors) that requires slow moving vehicles to pull over. He easily could have pulled over at any of three towns, a rest stop, two stop signs with very wide aprons, or dozens of wide and long gravel pullouts, businesses, or farmsteads.

(sorry for the delay in responding, I've been absent for several days.)

To address a point that FFF was losing "only 10 minutes" behind this slow Prius, I must point out something else.

Anyone working on a time clock must make sure that the dollars saved by hypermiling exceed the cost of extra time on the clock. For a 5 ton truck burning 3.5 gallons per hour, any fuel economy measures that slow them are unlikely to save the employer any money. For most businesses, any 'savings' that actually increase total operating cost will be a dead letter.

From the figures FFF gave, he would burn (assuming $4/gal gas) $6.15 at PSL over that 20 miles, vs. $6.01 behind a Prius averaging 33 mph, a fuel savings of $0.14. Minimum wage costs the employer at least $7.05/hour (6.55 to employee and $0.50 in federal payroll taxes), so a 10 minute delay (as figured by challengers here) costs an employer at least $1.17 in lost productivity -- for any unskilled employee with no benefits or overhead. Assuming FFF is skilled with some benefits, the cost will be far higher. And this doesn't count lost opportunity.

For self-employed truckers burning $50-70/hour of fuel on the Interstate, the answer may well be different. Slowing down for fuel economy could easily be worth their time, depending on the particular jobs available -- or not.

Hypermilers and others on the road are not in a position to figure the value of time versus fuel for anyone else. It is not for us to delay them over long stretches for their own good. Insist that they run legally and safely, but be reasonable about letting them around.

Hypermilers and others on the road are not in a position to figure the value of time versus fuel for anyone else. It is not for us to delay them over long stretches for their own good. Insist that they run legally and safely, but be reasonable about letting them around.Uh where are you getting this information that hypermilers are obstructing truckers? - the AAA?

Speaking for myself, I let them by.

Hi All,

Well the solution to FFF's problem is for the speed limit to be increased to 50 mph. Then the Prius could do 50 mph, in SHM mode, and get the same mileage, and everybody would be happy.

Here's something to remember the next time you encounter Mr. JotD-in-a-Prius: passing on a double-yellow is legal in PA as long as there is sufficient distance to do it safely (this varies with the speeds of the vehicles), and provided that the roadway is not marked with signs specifying it as a no passing zone. Be safe, but don't let the double yellow be the only thing stopping you.

http://www.dot3.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pa_forms_manuals/padriversman.pdf
You might want to double check things like this before you post it because you appear to have just given bad advice. According to everything I can find, PA is like every other state. Passing on a double yellow is illeagal. Unlike some states, passing on a single, solid yellow is permitted. However that is an out of date road marking...You should only see dotted, double solid, single solid with dotted on one side.

Here is another link with more specific info.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/vehicle_code/chapter33.pdf
There is the suggestion that every no passing zone will have a sign indicating it as such, however the text would seem to allow the double lines to act as legal marker.

EDIT -----------------------
OK. A little more reading and I did find opinions from some officers where double yellow may be suggestion, not a requirement. However officers don't interpret law, judges do. They should have asked a traffic court judge or a lawyer with PAs DOT. The actual law has enough flex that double yellows should be considered acceptable signage, but it could be debated if there isn't already enough legal precedence to force it one way or the other.

One of the best sources for on road marking and their meaning this is the Dept. of Transportation Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/) as this manual has been adopted as the standard in most state (including PA).

The manual says
Two-direction no-passing zone markings consisting of two normal solid yellow lines where crossing the centerline markings for passing is prohibited for traffic traveling in either direction.

However a little more searching found the following note:
State laws often prescribe certain conditions, such as obstruction of lanes, in which it is legal to drive to the left of the centerline.

So the question is what are the exceptions the PA allows.

I don't have the time now to download a 15 mb file (I'm on dialup) but this link (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/state_info/pennsylvania/pa.htm) will give you some PA specific info on "control devices.