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DSG like 6-speed sounds great. 5-speed MT gear ratios sound like another mistake… again :( (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=128891)

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/501/2009_Honda_Jazz.jpgWayne Gerdes - CleanMPG (www.cleanmp.com)- July 28, 2008

2009 European Honda Jazz -- Nice improvements with a disappointment.

Honda's all-new Jazz 5-door hatchback achieves class leading interior space but more importantly, significantly improved fuel economy with the HCH-II’s 1.4-litre with i-SHIFT and an available 1.2-litre iDSI.

The new Jazz retains the concepts of the previous Jazz with its center fuel tank layout and Magic Seats giving it a world beating interior flexibility. With theses best features retained, the new Jazz brings change to every area, raising the bar even further and promising to expand on its success in the super-mini segment. The previous generation was given more than fifty awards and has sold over two million around the world since its 2001 launch. Expect the second generation to do even better.

A slightly larger, ‘cab forward' style body brings better visibility and an even more spacious interior to the benefit of rear seat passengers with more legroom. The Magic Seats now drop down in one easy action and their versatility is now complemented by a new Double-Trunk feature in the luggage bay.

Safety

Safety upgrades in the second generation Jazz includes the recently introduced Advanced Compatibility Engineering (ACE) body structure, active front seat head restraints and VSA. Larger wheels, revised suspension and a longer wheelbase/wider track bring greater agility while enhancing ride comfort. And new 89 HP, 1.2-litre and 99 HP 1.4-litre i-VTEC engines deliver better performance characteristics while boosting fuel economy to exceptional levels – 46.1 mpgUS (5-speed MT) and 46.1/44.4 mpgUS (6-speed DSG/5-speed MT) combined, respectively.

Greater economy and lower emission from two new engines

New, more powerful gasoline engines, capable of outstanding economy, are designed to appeal to customers who might be downsizing as well as those looking to achieve fuel economy comparable to diesel powered models. Adopting Honda's VTEC technology (Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control), the new 1.2 and 1.4-litre four-cylinder engines are connected to either a 5-speed manual transmission or, on 1.4 models, Honda's i-SHIFT 6-speed automated manual transmission which includes steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters.

A new SIL (Shift Indicator Light) fitted to manual models, similar to that found on the new Accord, provides a visual prompt of the best gear shift points to maximize fuel economy.

The bad news… 5-speed manual transmission

The 1.2 and 1.4-litre models are equipped with an evolution of the previous 5-speed manual transmission with gear ratios optimized for a more sporty driving experience while ensuring mediocre fuel economy. Maybe someday Honda will get it but as of this writing, they are completely lost with fuel costs in Europe approaching and in some cases breaching $10.00 per gallon USD :(

i-SHIFT (6-speed automated manual transmission)

As well as a 5-speed manual gearbox, the 1.4-litre engine can be teamed up with Honda's latest i-SHIFT transmission. The first time a 6-speed automated manual transmission has been offered in this vehicle class, the gearbox offers better fuel economy than is possible with either a true automatic or a CVT (continuously variable transmission).

The unit is a development of the system first fitted to the Civic, with improvements made including; reduced gear change times, smoother shifts and more intelligent automatic mode shift logic.

Cab forward styling with increased dimensions

Overall height remains the same, but the length and wheelbase of the new Jazz are up by 2 inches. It is also slightly wider - by ¾ of an inch. All aid in increased handling stability. Despite the increased wheelbase, the turning diameter is still just 32.1 ft.

Safer ACE body structure

Even more efficient safety performance results from the introduction of the ACE (Advanced Compatibility Engineering) body structure, a concept that is being progressively rolled out across the Honda range. Its structure, in particular a front polygonal main frame, helps to reduce the negative effect of misalignment between vehicles of different sizes and construction and multiple energy absorbing pathways disperse impact energy to prevent cabin deformation.

Standard on all models are dual front and side airbags, full length side curtain airbags and three-point seatbelts in all five seating positions, those in the front with dual-stage pretensioners. The front passenger airbag can also be deactivated to allow a rear facing child seat to be fitted to the front seat and for the first time Jazz is equipped with seatbelt reminders for both the front and rear seats. Front seats are also fitted with active headrests to minimize the potential for whiplash injuries.

Larger cabin with even better functionality

The interior layout of the new Jazz allows rear seat passengers an extra 1.4 inches of knee room, while the distance between front and rear passengers is up by 1.2 inches. The slightly wider body also means shoulder room increases by 1.7inches the front and rear.

Reduced width A-pillars, a larger windscreen and quarter windows three times the size of those in the previous model allows greater visibility.

What can we expect. If you did a poll nation wide I'd expect most people to say they would prefer a slightly faster car than one that is marginally slower yet slightly better on gas.

Or we could take it further:

A: A car that gets 60 mpg but has a 0-60 of 16 seconds.
B: A car that gets 30 mpg but has a 0-60 or 8 seconds.

I bet a good portion of the American public would choose option B in a heartbeat.

Hi Tyler:

___The Automatic is already slower than the Stick so why screw the sticks FE up to begin with :( If Honda is going to make reference to diesel like FE out of either the 1.2 or the 1.4 w/ the DSG, then put a diesel in it and get Insight busting FE instead of this non-sense. Anyone purchasing a 1.2L ICE is not racing from stop light to stop light but Honda could probably punch that thing into the 50 mpg range combined range without to much effort other than either a taller and wider spaced 5-speed or a wider spaced 6-speed. When Honda doesn’t see that $10.00 per gallon is a non-starter for performance optimization, they will not get it here either :ccry:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I wish they'd just give a 6 speed non-auto. I know the general public is lazy, but comon! At least give us the option.

Yea.. I'd love a 6-spd manual in mine.

Hi C0da and Mike:

___I have a feeling Honda will be rushing out a 6-speed manual for both the Fit and the Civic once the Toyota 6-speed manual comes out for their lineup later this year. I am hoping that Toyota does not play the stupid performance game with their 6-speed (I doubt they will) and I also hope they place it in the Yaris and not just the Camry or Corolla?

___Either way, when the 09 Fit first arrives here, it will be equipped with the same old hopped up 1.5 and a buzz bomb of a manual transmission when ordered with the stick :ccry: I just do not know why we have to shame companies into doing the right thing? After all, the Current 2.2L Chevrolet Cobalt XFE (with a stick of course) has a 3 mpg advantage on the highway than the low weight and buzz bomb Fit per the 08 EPA :confused:

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne makes a good point about FE. Also, previous years Civic CRX's came in an FE edition that got better mpg, but I don't recall how much better.

My 78 Civic 5 sp had plenty of power; 1.5 L and 3 bbl carb. I even towed a small flatbed trailer with 2 ATC's, tool boxes, and gas cans on it many times.

And is it possible to buy an underpowered car in America? Not.

Maybe Honda could offer a special FE edition of the Jazz here.

Noteworthy: there was a woman who came into a Tresler-Comet station in Cincy where I worked about 1970 to get gas in a Renault R-10, maybe R-8. She claimed to get 40 mpg day or night, rain or shine. Now we have CPU's, FI's, and VVT but I don't see where the progress that has been made in mpg's is proportional to the technology that we have. This could be, my own opinion here, that most, if not all, cars are overpowered for the everyday driving that we do.

Faithful and True

I took a little trip out of town a few days ago, went north up I35. Wow, those on-ramps in those small towns are tiny. Probably the only place a 6 to 8 second 0-60 comes in handy. Taking 16seconds to get up to 60 would probably be scary there.

Anyways, after seeing the honda prius pictures, it looks like Honda and Toyota will be having an "efficiency" war with those two cars. Instead of everyone else always having horsepower wars.

I'm not disappointed. The new Fit is GoGo!

Although I too wish for greater FE out of the new Fit I think it will be a great seller for Honda. Further, it will be a great introduction for all those getting out of their oversized SUVs looking for something that has decent interior room, a hatch for storage capacity, and good fuel economy.

I'm looking forward to a test drive.

I don't mean to break it to you but most Honda drivers (or most drivers for that matter) prefer a performance oriented car instead of a fuel economy car. Not every drives with their eyes on the speedometer and fuel gauge all the time. If a driver is very into fuel economy, I am sure he or she will select a different car instead.

Hi Takashi:

___I just saw a family of four out on a Honda Fit test drive yesterday. I hardly doubt the 1.5L was asked to put out much more than 50 HP and I doubt it will ever be asked to give much more than that either. They were probably driving the AT version and that thing is not going to break any performance records by any stretch. If performance were all the rage, why offer a 1.2L let alone a non-hybridized 1.3L ICE in Europe vs. a hopped up 1.5 with buzz bomb gearing that we get over here and in Asia?

___My real problem is with the ratios. Is spreading them out in the 5-speed or adding a 6th gear going to diminish the performance? No, but 2,700 + R's at 60 mph sure is throwing it away while the much slower CVT is meandering along at < 2,000 at the same and receiving better FE because of it.

___Honda had the chance to really do something nice with the second gen but decided fuel costs doubling and tripling weren't enough to give us the highest FE non-hybrid available. I see a 2,400 pound car having its @$$ handed to it by a much faster and more fuel efficient 2.2L Chevrolet Cobalt XFE while out on the highway? The Cobalt platform was a simple rehash of the Cavalier and is at least 15 years old now! I would be embarrassed to be part of a program that missed the targets by as much as it did :(

___As Reid pointed out, it will still sell well because it is near the top of the FE list w/ excellent utility but top of the list means 60 +% oil imports vs. none if they stretched its wings a bit.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I think Honda is trying to kill two birds with one stone! They are wanting to appeal to us all. You would think that the high cost of fuel would push them too better FE rather that the high performance. Maybe next year? And I suppose it is possible Honda wants us to purchase the new Insight! Just my opinion,H :)

Honda is a good company, you'd think they would be able to see that the engines and gear ratios they are putting in the FIT in NA are hurting their sales.

We would have considered a FIT if it was closer to the Yaris in FE and we would have bought a FIT if we could have bought it with one of those smaller engines.

Honda seems to understand that there is a market for their cars with young people who can't afford something fancy and want a sporty feeling car, but they also don't seem to understand there is a growing market of mature buyers who want their small car to be as economical as possible and that if they wanted something sporty they'd buy a sports car, not a economy car.

When I saw the new FIT in Japan earlier this year I thought it looked great. I've since heard rumors that the FIT in NA is going to have bigger bumpers and I've seen some pictures (I don't know if they're real) which show the 09 NA FIT and the front looks horrible compared to the Japanese market FIT. I hope that isn't true, but either way it doesn't matter as we'll be driving out Yaris AT for a long time which still gets better FE than the newer fit and costs us several thousand dollars less than an identically equipped FIT.

I like Honda(My first car was an Accord Coupe), but it's easy to see why they're currently number 2 by a large number in Japan.

I went to the Sycamore car show Sunday and much of the talk was about "how it (hot rodding) was" as compared to what it is evolving into. Many seemed to feel that the cost of gasoline will drive more and more people away from a performance orientation. As it stands now, however, todays cost have not gone high enough to push many people away from "a car in front of you is a car to be passed" mentality. The majority here in the Chicago area still drive FSP's aggressively. Those who have a Pirus many times will pass me like I am standing still. We all love speed and are quite reluctant to change.

But there are some who do see the writing on the wall. I was talking to a guy who had a beautiful pinstripped Mopar Road Runner with a Weiland supercharger sitting on top of a Lion Hearted 383 who said,

"You just wait, as the price of gas goes up, speed will become more and more our domain". He and his family all drive quite fuel efficient cars and do not hot rod on the street.

How high does it have to go to awake us?

I don't mean to break it to you but most Honda drivers (or most drivers for that matter) prefer a performance oriented car instead of a fuel economy car. Not every drives with their eyes on the speedometer and fuel gauge all the time. If a driver is very into fuel economy, I am sure he or she will select a different car instead.

I agree, I think the real appeal of the Fit is it's a sporty alternative to the Yaris and other subcompacts. I'll be honest, while the Yaris might have get slightly better FE i'd gladly choose a Fit sport over the Yaris.

The same seems to go for the civic and accord. You can call both slightly more sporty than the Toyota offered alternative. Driving magazines tend to agree. The fact the civic was or still is the # 1 seller tells me gas isn't high enough yet for Americans to overcome speed and handling trumping fuel economy concerns.

A 1.2 engine might make a nice choice if offered alongside the 1.5 but I doubt Honda would sell as many Fit's if they only offered the 1.2 or 1.3. Unless they came with stock turbo. But that doesn't seem to be Honda's style.

But they would sell MORE if they offered the full range of options. There are market segments that will buy the Yaris over the Fit, and a more efficient drivetrain would lure some of them to Honda's side.

How do they even know what the market wants, if there isn't an option for the customers to vote with their wallets? That's my complaint here.

Hi GreenVTEC:

___I will disagree wrt performance vs. FE in the US. The Accord/Camry V6 vs. I4 split is almost 3 I4's to every one V6 and I bet that number is even more divergent today. The car mags and performance rags are pushing for the big power but the American public is leaning over the last 4 + years and "sort of" figuring that 0 - 60 in 7 vs. 9 means nothing in the real world.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Do engines have to pass some kind of US certification? Perhaps the smaller engines don't burn cleanly enough to pass California emissions? I have no clue, I mean we have a 1.3 engine here already, shouldn't be to much trouble. I'm sure there is something holding all the automakers back. I mean they all have great Euro cars so why is are they all lagging and just promoting either diesel or hybrids?

My hunch says that if they brought over such fuel efficient small cars that it would be a double whammy to automakers lineups. First off it would make cash cow large cars and SUV's look even more horrible. Secondly it would make hybrids look horrible as well. Toyota has invested alot of money in the hybrid program. I don't think offering a 63 mpg small compact for under 18,000 will be good for the upcoming Prius or any of the other hybrids.

In the US the best fuel economy comes at a premium price. It's a game to keep less efficient cars and SUV's viable. And no automaker wants to change that.

Do engines have to pass some kind of US certification? Perhaps the smaller engines don't burn cleanly enough to pass California emissions? I have no clue, I mean we have a 1.3 engine here already, shouldn't be to much trouble. I'm sure there is something holding all the automakers back. I mean they all have great Euro cars so why is are they all lagging and just promoting either diesel or hybrids?

My hunch says that if they brought over such fuel efficient small cars that it would be a double whammy to automakers lineups. First off it would make cash cow large cars and SUV's look even more horrible. Secondly it would make hybrids look horrible as well. Toyota has invested a lot of money in the hybrid program. I don't think offering a 63 mpg small compact for under 18,000 will be good for the upcoming Prius or any of the other hybrids.

In the US the best fuel economy comes at a premium price. It's a game to keep less efficient cars and SUV's viable. And no automaker wants to change that.

Good hunch, GreenVTEC. I have a hunch you are on the money.

I have a hunch the big .3 have been using the EPA, lobbying, special interest groups and media hype for years and years to further their own interests and desires.

And don't think for a moment that the oil industry has not been involved. Our honorable legislators are giving the poor, destitute oil industry 13 billion dollars of our tax dollars to help them develop more oil.

Slowly, over time, history will unveil the true extent of this atrocity against America!:mad::woot::confused: